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MuscledDestroyer
Sergeant
435 Posts
    
Prospect Park, Pa
 | | 10/12/2006 7:07 PM |
| I think I understand how to figure it out . Here goes. If I want to have a Bugbear Barbarian as a character to start with ;what is his ECL? Also am I correct that he doesn't get the 1st level starting skill points and the start up feats. Example he would start with his feats for being a Bugbear ( Monster levels) and he would only get more feats if his class gave him one at 1st level and or if his HD and the extra class level brought his total levels to 4 or more.
Thanks for the help! | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 10/12/2006 7:48 PM |
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Okay, to see what the level would be, take the level adjustment (I don't have the book in front of me) and add it to the hit dice of the creature. He essentially gets the "1st level" skills but its worked into being a monsterous humanoid and he doesn't get any ore than any other level when he takes his first character level. Threat the hit dice like levels when determining feats. So you are ight about the class features giving him feats, but he gets feats whenever his hit dice and levels sum to a number divisible by 3. Unless it has some racial feats as part of being a Bugbear, you can choose all the rest if you don't want to take the standard ones in the MM. | |
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MuscledDestroyer
Sergeant
435 Posts
Prospect Park, Pa
| | 10/12/2006 9:06 PM |
| Aren't the feats the Bugbear shows in MM basically just from monster levels similar to a standard race character. If I chose to be one I would'nt change any of that to keep it simple and just customise starting with the character levels.
You take the: HD + Class Level + Level Adjustment ( at the bottom of the description) = ECL.
If you have a race with 1 HD or less with no level adj I'm pretty sure you just roll a character as normally done.
So a 1st Level Bugbear Barbarian would be ECL: 5 . Right? | |
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Oryan77
Sergeant
951 Posts
| | 10/13/2006 1:35 PM |
| Posted By MuscledDestroyer on 10/12/2006 9:06 PM
Aren't the feats the Bugbear shows in MM basically just from monster levels similar to a standard race character. If I chose to be one I would'nt change any of that to keep it simple and just customise starting with the character levels.
You take the: HD + Class Level + Level Adjustment ( at the bottom of the description) = ECL.
If you have a race with 1 HD or less with no level adj I'm pretty sure you just roll a character as normally done.
So a 1st Level Bugbear Barbarian would be ECL: 5 . Right?
Yep, you're right on everything.
I actually have this stuff all typed out in EASY to follow descriptions. I don't have that stupid sheet saved electronically (I need to save it in a txt file). I can check my notes when I get home and post it up.
I think the only thing you figure up without adding in the HD (or maybe it's LA) is stuff like starting gold. It's been so long since I've created an ECL character, I'll need to check my notes.
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 10/13/2006 3:21 PM |
| | No, you do add that if I remember correctly because you want all the characters to have the same amount of gold. The ECL determines how much gold the character should have. So in this case he has the same gold as a 5th level character. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
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Oryan77
Sergeant
951 Posts
| | 10/13/2006 4:50 PM |
| Posted By gss_000 on 10/13/2006 3:21 PM
No, you do add that if I remember correctly because you want all the characters to have the same amount of gold. The ECL determines how much gold the character should have. So in this case he has the same gold as a 5th level character.
Yeah you're right. Now I'm curious what it is I'm thinking about. I hope I remember to check on it when I get home 
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 10/13/2006 6:17 PM |
| | Let us know. I'm away from all my books right now so I can't check anything either. I do't do a lot of ECLs so I'm curious if there is something I've missed or forgotten. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
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zenthrus
Commander
4680 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 10/15/2006 1:05 AM |
| Looks like everything is correct.
ECL = Racial Hit Dice + Level Adjustment + Class Levels.
Since ECL = Effective Character Level, to determine starting wealth, just reference the chart on page 145 of the DMG (ECL = Character Level).
In this case, the ECL should be 5 (3 racial Hit Dice + Level Adjustment 1 + Barbarian Level 1) and the starting wealth value should be 9000gp (per a 5th-level character).
The biggest trouble with ECL characters is their relative lack of hit dice. Half-celestial and half-fiend look terrifyingly overpowered until you realize that you lose 4 die worth of hit points as well as any relavent Con modifier bonuses. An average 10th-level fighter has 84 hit points (assuming Con = 14). An average ECL 10 Half-celestial fighter has 64 hit points (assuming Con = 1 . Twenty hit points on the party's front-liner is a huge difference (34% loss).
Granted, casters feel the sting a bit less. An average 10th-level wizard has 37 hit points (assuming Con = 12). An average ECL 10 Half-celestial wizard has 30 hit points. Seven hit points on a mage is still a big deal (20% loss).
At higher levels, you're going to be hit by something, regardless how impressive your AC might be, and the lower hit points quickly becomes problematic.
Back to the original poster's bugbear....bugbears are actually a rather good investment since you lose one hit dice (average of a little less than a 10% loss by 10th-level) and gain quite a large number of benefits. | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 10/16/2006 8:54 AM |
| If you don't like the hit dice loss, there are several "monster classes" which intermix character levels with the monster abilities so the hit dice loss is spread over several levels and is not as harsh for the early levels.
As said, bugbear is a good choice. As though you needed my approval.  | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 10/16/2006 10:10 AM |
| Interesting analysis Zenthrus. I don't play with monstrous PCs in my campaign, so the insight is welcome.
Sky
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The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 10/16/2006 7:20 PM |
| | Just curious, does anyon who plays ECL creatures ever use the alternate rules for "buying" the levels back from Unearthed Arcana? | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
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Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10885 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 10/18/2006 6:03 AM |
| | Savage Species has a statted out Bugbear Barbarian as an example, if you have that book. | |
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