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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
    
Montreal
 | | 11/13/2006 8:57 AM |
| I've bought the Expedition to Castle Raventloft adventure, and i've been slowly reading through it. I just started Chapter III (of V), and i'm somewhere around 25-30% done.
I'm rather disappointed in the product up to now, to be frank. Here are some reasons why. Please keep in mind that i have not finished reading it, so my opinion might change and some of my ravings might be unsupported once i read the entire book (i'm unsure if i'll get there).
Spoilers ahead!
Firstly, the story is a Dracula rip-off. I know it might have nothing to do with the re-edition and that the original story might have been that way, but really everyone who's seen Bram Stoker's Dracula movie with Keenu Reeves will realize that the base story is identical, including the new love for the vampire who's a woman that ressembles his lost love of centuries back and whom he suspects to be her reincarnation, her lost love having died by throwing herself from the castle battlements into the river, etc...
Then, in the introduction, Strahd Von Zarovich, the main evil vampire, the #1 guy, is introduced, his stats are provided, his background is... not detailed. How did he become a vampire? Through an "unnamed evil". I can't believe that *the* main character's state, on which relies the entire adventure, is not explained. This is unbelievable to me. I hope that it comes later in the book, although i can't think of why it would not have been included in the intro.
The adventure hook is pretty slim in my view also. The adventurers are sleeping at an inn, and they receive a letter inviting them to help a nearby village. Nobody lost any sleep thinking that one through. The only way to make it more straightforward was to have the letter signed by the DM himself instead of a NPC.
Then, there is the question of the intended mood versus what the first portion of the adventure actually presents. The adventure is introduced as being horror-themed (which is what i expected when buying it), but in the village of Barovia, you have a zombie infestation alike what you see in good'ol B-movies (Return of the Living Dead, etc...) with zombie mobs. I like zombie movies, i love them actually. My friends and i laugh our heads off every time. All zombie movie fans that i know find zombie movies incredibly funny. Funny is not equal to horror. Zombies are ridiculous opponents: they're slow, they have no intelligence, it's a blast to cleave your way through them. But to say that they're *scrarry*? I don't think so.
So the village of Barovia is under a "terrifying zombie infestation". Most of the houses have been abandonned, and the only solace in the entire village is the small central town square, where barricades have been put up to keep the zombies at bay. This place is like a 100-foot square and barely offers protection to the 5 or 6 doors that lead in the town square. When the PCs arrive at the barricaded town square, one barricade has been breached by zombies and a single person (a paladin) is fightint them off, in a losing battle (until the PCs hopefully intervene). The place where most of the townsfolk are located is the inn/tavern, where "a mutter of voices, a clatter of dishware, and the squeal of a poorly played wind intrument usher from this rambling building". Presumably, when the PCs arrive at the inn, the zombies have just been defeated by them and the paladin after the barricade breach. In a small town having no militia, with only a paladin stranger for protection, with zombies having killed most villagers and turned them into zombies (wives, children, loved ones), in what appears like a desperate cause, with the barricade breached and zombies threatening to finally break into the inn to kill everyone, what are they all doing? Eating and listening to music. Hmm. Realistic? I think these villagers should be barricading the door to the inn, completely out of their minds with fright and grief, desperatly praying to all the gods to save their souls.
There is also the question of the static condition of the encounters. All the chapter II encounters occur in a given manner whatever the time of day, whatever the prior actions of the PCs, and so on. For example, when the PCs arrive in the town square, the barricades have just been breached by the zombies. No matter how long it took them to get there, no matter what their prior actions, etc... Okay, one such situation can be acceptable, but it just keeps on going. When they descend into the cemetery ghoul grave, some ghasts (who had been feasting on a dead corpse located in the underground cavern) are now awaiting their prey hidden behind earthen walls that they'll burst out of to attack at the proper time. What the heck are the ghasts doing there? How long have they been waiting there? Why are they not eating the corpse? Don't they go out at night, or are they hibernating behind those walls until Player Characters show up? How long does it take to build that earthen wall anyway? Who does that, the ghats? They actually manage to wall themselves in? When are they going to get out to eat again? It makes no sense whatsoever to me.
Generally speaking, most encounters that i've read up to now have a static feel to them, where i have the impression that this is a video game with a trigger where the creatures are concealed behind their earthen walls or within their wardrobes or under the mattresses, awaiting for a computer code to be triggered when the PCs cross the pre-selected line. Then, they jump on the PCs.
Oh, and in this out-of-the-way village, where i assume the villagers are poor, you can find 150 gold pieces (!) worth of jewelry on a dead villager in the ghoul grave. That seems strange to me.
In that ghoul grave, you have "gravetouched ghouls" that are defined in this adventure as being "creatures that rise from the grave endowed with ghoul abilities". Fine. But, what creature do we find here? A gravetouched ghoul harpy. A harpy! Risen from the grave!! What the heck was she doing in a grave in first place!?? Since when are harpies enterred anyway? What is she doind in a human cemetary?
Also, the adventure appears to be a railroading one. PCs arrive in village, combat zombies, help the paladin, go to the church, kill the mad priest, go see madam Eva, etc... No or little room for choices.
Speaking of Madam Eva... i think we get the point after *everyone* who's still alive tells the PCs that she's a very wise person and that she should have the answers to whatever question and blah blah blah and she has knowledge and blah blah blah. I mean, again, the only way to make it clearer is to have a neon sign with an arrow pointing towards Madam Eva with the text: "DM thinks you should go here".
Anyway, i'll try to keep on reading, perhaps my initial analysis is too harsh. But after having read (and started DMing) the super interesting Shackled City adventure path, after having read (and started DMing) the good RHoD adventure, i find Ravenloft to be a real let-down up to now.
On the bright side, the new encounter format appears very user-friendly and very well thought-out. I really, really like how they set that up, so that all encounters can be found on a single pair of facing pages. Moreover, even castle (i.e. dungeon) encounters have been broken into dungeon sections, where more than one room are often included. So in addition to having the entire general map at the outset, you then have detailed sections intelligently broken down. Although i haven't used this new format yet, it strikes me as a wonderful addition. I find, however, that this new format appears to have partly led to my above-mentioned static feel to the encounters since all creature positions are initially set on each map, so i hope that this static feel will not be the case in future adventures.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 11/13/2006 9:17 AM |
| Just curious, but does this product reference Heroes of Horror? I have neither right now, and if I decide to get this, more unlikely as I read your synopsis, it'd be good to know beforehand.
I'm not surprise about your comment on the lack of "horror". It was the problem with the original setting, too. Heroic fantasy rules do not lend itself to horror themes easily without work by the DM. It can be done, but I haven't seen it in published mods yet, probably because they are more generic than a homebrew. | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 11/13/2006 9:25 AM |
| Yes, heroes of horror is referenced at regular intervals. It appears like a good addition for this kind of adventure. I haven't read the heroes of horror book, but my understanding is that it has some familiarity with Cthulu, where your sanity and mental strength come into play. Reference is made in Ravenloft to taint, depravity and corruption that appear to be heroes of horror concepts.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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dagonet
Sergeant
439 Posts
| | 11/13/2006 10:00 AM |
| I believe that Taint was present in the original Ravenloft system, as a byproduct of (inadvertent?) dealings with the Dark Powers who oversee the various domains and realms.
It's funny; I recall seeing in Dungeon, very recently, that they automatically trash any adventure submission that starts in an inn because it's the ultimate rpg cliche. =)
Cheers,
Dagonet | |
"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people."
Champion of Kyuss and his Servants of Squishy Doom | |
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Cheddar Bearer
Warrior
298 Posts
| | 11/13/2006 12:32 PM |
| I read through the Ravenloft adventure and found it to be rather mediocre. Many bits seemed unexplained or lacking any backstory.
(Spoiler alert)
In one area for no apparent reasons there are loads of demons, just said to be strahd's minions. It is never explained why a vampire necromancer of LE alignment is summoning Bar-Igura but it happens. Also there is a short section involving monsterous spiders and etercaps, again no explination of why he lets them roam around his basement he just does.
(Spoiler Ends)
I also was far from sold on the new encounter layout. It meant you didn't have to consoult the rulebooks as much but if your familiar with the rules it is of little help to have half a page taken up with rules for difficult terrain. Also they have a bit where they describe the creatures in each encounter. I think most DM's can manage to describe a zombie themselves. What was odd was thast for one new creature an aspect of some obscure demon porince there was no visual description. I can get a paragraph to describe a wraith but not even a sentance for a new monster? Seemed odd.
Also I felt the encounter block broke up the flow of the book (silly i know but i felt the 'flow' is important) and as a DM you'd have to flic between combat enccounters and exploring which I'd imagine would get very irritatiing quickly. Still I haven't seen it else where yet and it could be one of these things that takes time to get used to. | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 11/13/2006 3:15 PM |
| One other thing... the encounters often start with "ask the PCs to place their miniatures on the map at a desired location, and then have them make spot checks" to see if they'll be surprised by the opponents. Essentially, every time that there are enemies nearby, a map is drawn and the PCs need to place their minis on the map. If, after 3-4 times, they don't get that a map equals an encounter, they're pretty thick. I know it's meta-gaming and they shouldn't be doing it, but there's a limit to the DM throwing hints at their faces as big as a refrigerator. If the PCs are to be surprised by opponents, i don't even look at my marker with which i'll draw the map before explaining what's going on. I want the *players* to be surprised, not only the PCs. Sky   | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 11/13/2006 3:38 PM |
| | Not a rip-off... a homage! | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 11/13/2006 3:50 PM |
| Posted By IanB on 11/13/2006 3:38 PM
Not a rip-off... a homage!
Perhaps. I would have preferred an original story myself, but i can understand those that would like to see Dracula played out.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 11/13/2006 5:48 PM |
| Posted By Skyscraper on 11/13/2006 3:50 PM Posted By IanB on 11/13/2006 3:38 PM
Not a rip-off... a homage! Perhaps. I would have preferred an original story myself, but i can understand those that would like to see Dracula played out. Sky
Well, you need to remember that the movie "Bram Stoker's Dracula" came out in 1992. The whole thing about Mina being the reincarnation of some old flame of Dracula's was added for that movie and was not in the original story.
The original Ravenloft module did contain that story, and was published in 1983, so there's really no way that it stole that story from the movie. I'm not saying that it didn't steal it from somewhere, mind you, but in this case at least if anyone stole something from someone else, it was the movie from the module, amusingly enough. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 11/13/2006 11:21 PM |
| | It seems a problem where the story is so universal now, that no matter which came first it will seem derivative. | |
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Cthulhufnord
Warlord
10615 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 11/13/2006 11:54 PM |
| That's too bad they never went into Strahd's origin in the Adventure. There was a pseduo diary of sorts called "I, Strahd" that goes into his oragins quite nicely and makes him a little less of a Dracula clone.
A friend of mine from my FLGS was so disapointed by the impressive looking hardback adventure that he's planning his own version using Iron Heros. | |
Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul,
ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 11/14/2006 8:41 AM |
| Posted By Cthulhufnord on 11/13/2006 11:54 PM
That's too bad they never went into Strahd's origin in the Adventure. There was a pseduo diary of sorts called "I, Strahd" that goes into his oragins quite nicely and makes him a little less of a Dracula clone.
They are rereleasing this book either this year or next, I can't remember. The backstory from that mght help with the mod.
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Stabmastaarson
Sergeant
442 Posts
| | 11/14/2006 12:12 PM |
| While I understand the complaints about the plot and structure, I don't think that necessarily makes it "bad". I view the plot presented (along with the hooks and encounters) as a framework. I don't feel beholden to actually FOLLOW what is written. If something doesn't make sense, I make up something that does.Â
As a whole, I liked the book. While I might not agree with the entire story, I can easily tweak it to suit my needs. It keeps me from having to dream up and entire horror campaign on my own (which is hard work).Â
Different strokes for different folks I guess. | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 11/16/2006 1:52 PM |
| IanB: your point about the original story originating before Bram Stoker's Dracula is quite good, i had not realized that although i've read the book a long time ago and i recall that the movie had that particular twist as an original version. So maybe it *is* the movie that got inspired from the D&D adventure  (assuming the original adventure had that, of course).
Stabmastaarson, you're quite right, it's whatever floats our respective water-borne vessels, is it not? I'm, as always, only stating my opinion.
Sky
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The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 11/17/2006 10:51 AM |
| I rather like the adventure, but i played and DMed the original mulitiple times so it has the nostalga effect for me. As to no back story, there is some but its scattered in bits and pieces throughout the adventure and,I think, the designers are assuming that players are familar with the original. I do miss the backstory presented in the original modual and will include it when I DM this one.
Skyscraper:The plot hook your referring to isn't meant to be the main plot hook just a little something to intregue the players and belatedly make them realize someone is aware of there exsistance. The main plot hook to get the players to Bavaria is up to the DM but they do offer some good suggestions at the beginning of the book under campaign settings. I Play Ebberon so I like the Multiple parties ,both good and evil, seaching for the Tome of Strahd.
I think part of the reason the town is so decimated is that they want the feeling of issolation to add to the horror of the adventure. In this adventure the party has almost no support structure, they have no garanteed safe harbor to rest and buy magic items. Allies are few and far between forcing players to sometimes choose between the lesser of two evils to complete a mission.
Overall I agree with stabmastaarson, things could be done better but over all,with a little tweaking on the DM's part, this could be an excellent adventure.
One metagameing tip though, if you play Eberron warforged really nerf the adventure so if your party is entirely warforged someone is metagaming.
Edit: The plot hooks presented in the campaign settings aren't necessarily setting specific, most can be easily adapted to any campaign. | | | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 12/06/2006 7:26 AM |
| Posted By maijstral on 11/17/2006 10:51 AM
I rather like the adventure, but i played and DMed the original mulitiple times so it has the nostalga effect for me. As to no back story, there is some but its scattered in bits and pieces throughout the adventure and,I think, the designers are assuming that players are familar with the original. I do miss the backstory presented in the original modual and will include it when I DM this one.
Skyscraper:The plot hook your referring to isn't meant to be the main plot hook just a little something to intregue the players and belatedly make them realize someone is aware of there exsistance. The main plot hook to get the players to Bavaria is up to the DM but they do offer some good suggestions at the beginning of the book under campaign settings. I Play Ebberon so I like the Multiple parties ,both good and evil, seaching for the Tome of Strahd.
I think part of the reason the town is so decimated is that they want the feeling of issolation to add to the horror of the adventure. In this adventure the party has almost no support structure, they have no garanteed safe harbor to rest and buy magic items. Allies are few and far between forcing players to sometimes choose between the lesser of two evils to complete a mission.
Overall I agree with stabmastaarson, things could be done better but over all,with a little tweaking on the DM's part, this could be an excellent adventure.
One metagameing tip though, if you play Eberron warforged really nerf the adventure so if your party is entirely warforged someone is metagaming.
Edit: The plot hooks presented in the campaign settings aren't necessarily setting specific, most can be easily adapted to any campaign. Have you DM'd any if it yet? I'd like to hear how it went and what changes, if any, you made. I just picked it up and I intend to run it.
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You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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