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glauron
Underboss
1379 Posts
    
Sydney, Australia
 | | 12/06/2006 2:40 PM |
| As a self-confessed lover of the Eberron Campaign Setting, and a DM in the game world since it's inception, I have to say that action points are starting to really annoy me. The are wthout doubt a repetitive, replenishing source of get out of jail free cards.
Maybe that's the plan? It's not a Gygax campaign where the object is to kill PCs, but I'm beginning to believe it is unbalanced. At higher levels, players can escape their actions far too often via this game device. The players start to believe they are invincible.
I'm almost on the verge of a house ruling, that will limit these action points to 5 per level, irrespective of the characters class levels.
Any thougths from other Eberron lovers, or those who know the campaign setting? I'm not interested in comments from those with a bias against Eberron. | |
I have always been here. | |
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maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 12/06/2006 9:02 PM |
| I am an Eberron lover as well, and while action points can be annoying sometimes they are necessary. I just finshed running the RHoD and while the players had a high bodycount by the end there was never a TPK and that was because of action points. There were a few times actions point were almost required,such as when they had to vital to hit one of the Dragons. I am running Raveloft next and once again,with all the saves needed, I think action points will be necessary to avoid a string of bad rolls destroying the party.
I have 3 players new to Eberron and 2 old hands, the new players use the points sparingly and, usually, only when its a vital roll they think they may fail. The old hands though realize they are a replenishing source of free points and shoot through them like crazy sometimes picking up a six sider allong with the d20 when rolling, one player calls himself an action point monkey and has run through his entire supply of action points in one battle.I sometimes bait the players with action points, asking them if they want to use an action point before annouceing the results and many time that freaks the players enough they waste an action point just because they think they need to.
I think at higher levels it does get a little ridiculous especially when you get to roll mulitiple dice and,with feats, even roll d8's. 5 points per level should be fine and I may implement this myself (I expect a revolt if I do  ). The only drawback to the 5 point limit are the few Eberron specific feats and prestige classes that use action points for an ability. If you do limit the points you may want to allow the prestige classes to gain more.
One other thing you may try is giving the big bads action points, in Ravenloft Strahd has action points and can gain many more from the players. If you drop the hint that abuse of action points results in the big bads getting some,or more, then the players may think hard before using them excessively. | | | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 12/07/2006 12:41 PM |
| I don't play Eeron, but I like the setting and I played in another campaign before it came out that had similar things called action points. What we found is that if you limit the amount, or only allow them to be used for very dramatic actions, they don't get abused. Since the point seems to make the game more cinematic, you may want to try limiting when they can be used.
As in the last point, you could give a pool as well to bad guys, but be careful here. It has to be balanced by the fact that it is one creature vs the party and it can really feel like you are hosing the players this way. You might want to check how Mutants and Masterminds does hero points (similar, but not exactly, like action points) vs villain points. | |
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Chris Orlando
Warrior
187 Posts
| | 12/08/2006 7:26 AM |
| | O.k. I am a huge fan of Eberron. However, this is my issue with the action points. Are the PC's the only hero's in the world? Can't there be any other hero's on the *dark side*. Atleast that is what I'm thinking and if you dont know where im going is that i give bosses or any hero type of character action points if the PC's choose to use them. So i propose that if the PC's get it big baddies get it to and since you only get so much per level, it is likely that a Baddie will have it (i give a % chance to see how many are used.) | |
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Corim Danex
Warlord
6561 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 12/08/2006 12:57 PM |
| | If your group has had action points for a while and you want to cut back the number available, you could consider telling them that NPC's and monsters will start to have them or you will need to maximize the number available per level. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/08/2006 2:34 PM |
| | I love action points personally, and have introduced them to my non-Eberron games (except for one where I have a very new player and I'm trying to keep the rules simpler.)
I don't see them as get out of jail free cards for the PCs, I see them as a safety net in case I mis-balance an encounter. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 12/08/2006 5:09 PM |
| Posted By IanB on 12/08/2006 2:34 PM
I don't see them as get out of jail free cards for the PCs, I see them as a safety net in case I mis-balance an encounter.
Exactly, thank you. This was what i was trying to say in my earlier post.
Also in some adventures,RHoD for one, one tactical mistake and you can get a total party kill, if the party keeps making the same mistake over and over then and endless supply of action points won't make a difference but if they use them to avoid the TPK and learn from there mistake they are well worth it and your game doesn't come to a grinding halt while the players roll new characters. | | | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/08/2006 5:34 PM |
| Posted By maijstral on 12/08/2006 5:09 PM Posted By IanB on 12/08/2006 2:34 PM
I don't see them as get out of jail free cards for the PCs, I see them as a safety net in case I mis-balance an encounter. Exactly, thank you. This was what i was trying to say in my earlier post. Also in some adventures,RHoD for one, one tactical mistake and you can get a total party kill, if the party keeps making the same mistake over and over then and endless supply of action points won't make a difference but if they use them to avoid the TPK and learn from there mistake they are well worth it and your game doesn't come to a grinding halt while the players roll new characters.
Another nice thing about them is that it gives me a nice mechanism to build into the fighter class to give it a bit more flavor. I'm still working on it, but my intention is to let the fighter have some extra special uses of APs (and extra APs in general) to nudge it closer in power to the other fighting classes; I feel it is on the weak side currently. Probably something at 5/10/15/20 or maybe 5/7/11/13/17/19, something to keep people interested in keeping the fighter class around for more than the usual 1/2/4 level dips. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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kestrel.ca
Underboss
1669 Posts
| | 12/09/2006 7:49 AM |
| I like action points -- it helps alleviate runs of bad luck which can be disastrous at low levels.
On the other hand, I just finished an epic campaign, and having 31 action points to burn each level was a little bit ridiculous. Especially since each battle would take 4-6 hours to complete, by which time we definitely knew most of the ACs and DCs required and could effectively know when to use the action points.
I don't think a cap on action points is a bad thing, but personally, I think 5 is too low. In most of my campaigns, it takes 5-6 encounters to level up. I think 10 action points would be acceptable. They're there as a fail-safe, but won't be relied on regularly. Additionally, after 7th level, PCs become a little more resilient and able to handle extended bad luck better than low level PCs. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/11/2006 11:34 AM |
| Posted By kestrel.ca on 12/09/2006 7:49 AM
I like action points -- it helps alleviate runs of bad luck which can be disastrous at low levels.
On the other hand, I just finished an epic campaign, and having 31 action points to burn each level was a little bit ridiculous. Especially since each battle would take 4-6 hours to complete, by which time we definitely knew most of the ACs and DCs required and could effectively know when to use the action points.
I don't think a cap on action points is a bad thing, but personally, I think 5 is too low. In most of my campaigns, it takes 5-6 encounters to level up. I think 10 action points would be acceptable. They're there as a fail-safe, but won't be relied on regularly. Additionally, after 7th level, PCs become a little more resilient and able to handle extended bad luck better than low level PCs.
31 action points would mean you were what, level 52-3 (5 plus half your level APs per level, round down)? I'm not surprised that the system breaks down at that point.  | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4458 Posts
| | 12/11/2006 11:48 AM |
| I'm more familiar with Action points via Unearthed Arcana than Eberron. But I pose this question: Are you using them correctly?
The thing that hangs up my players is that they want to know the result of their roll right away, without thinking through what it took someone else to hit, and give consideration to whether they should use an action point or not.
Remember, by rule, you must declare teh use of an AP prior to learning the result of the roll.
If this is happening, and your still having problems, then push the EL up a bit to compensate for their good luck.
I'm also enjoying them, as I'm running my group through the Return to the TEmple of Elemental Evil (known for a TON of TPK's). I think it IS ok to have Hero's that are REAL hero's...
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 12/11/2006 12:16 PM |
| Questions from a non-AP user:
Do you give out APs each time a character levels up?
Do you also give them out in other circumstances?
If i understand correctly, PCs get (5 + 1/2 level) APs to spend... is that per level? If so, that means that by level 10, each PC can spend about 2-3 APs per encounter, considering that it takes, say, half a dozen encounters to gain a level? Isn't that a lot?
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/11/2006 12:47 PM |
| Posted By Skyscraper on 12/11/2006 12:16 PM
Questions from a non-AP user:
Do you give out APs each time a character levels up?
Do you also give them out in other circumstances?
If i understand correctly, PCs get (5 + 1/2 level) APs to spend... is that per level? If so, that means that by level 10, each PC can spend about 2-3 APs per encounter, considering that it takes, say, half a dozen encounters to gain a level? Isn't that a lot?
Sky
Well, the rules are sort of constructed around the assumption that it takes 13ish encounters to level, not 6. A 10th level PC should have 10 APs. You don't get to save APs from level to level, if you level with some unspent, you lose them and get reset to your new total. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 12/11/2006 5:57 PM |
| *shakes head rapidly from side to side* boy, how did i get to the count i got to?!
Anyway, it still appears like quite a few APs... which is, if i understand correctly, the contention of some of the above posters.
Hmm. One of my players insists that i incorporate APs in the game, but i'm still hesitating.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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kestrel.ca
Underboss
1669 Posts
| | 12/11/2006 8:42 PM |
| Actually, we were playing level 28, and counting APs as level +3. Not sure where I got that number from -- I'll probably have to look it up again. It's probably an error in memory, and my group has never questioned me on it! Half your level +5 would have given us 19 APs, still an awful lot.
And yes, we were playing with them correctly (I think) in that we would declare their use before the result was declared. However, as some of the monsters we were facing had 1000+ hp, and Fast Healing, the battles tended to be quite long which allowed us to quickly pinpoint an opponent's AC: My 54 hit last time, but a 53 misses? Oh, now I rolled a 52, I think I'll use an AP! | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
901 Posts
| | 12/12/2006 5:27 AM |
| I don't run Eberron, but, one of our few house rules is to use a variation of Action Points.
1 - I hand out Action Points for role-playing or some awesome move that happens in combat or whatnot. I might hand out 1 or 2 a session at most.
2 - You can only get action points up to your PC's level.
3 - You can add up to 5 action points to any d20 roll before you know the result of the roll.
4 - If you spend half your character's level +1 in action points, you can re-roll one dice. (which means you can only do this every few levels, and it clears out most of your points)
5 - If most players level up, but, for whatever reason, one or two players miss leveling by a few hundred points, I let the players convert 1 action point into 100 experience, and they can use up to 3 this way. It stinks to die when you're 78 points from the next level, since you lose a level and a half worth of EXP.
For me, it's a tool to reward RP, and since I run a tough campaign, if a PC dies due to bad luck, it's their own fault for not banking enough action points (it's one thing to die from damage, but, it's tough on a PC to die from a save or die spell).
I don't feel as guilty casting disintegrate or finger of death knowing that action points are around.
If my campaign was easy, or the players didn't respect the ongoing danger, I'd probably cut back on the Action Points and what you can do with them, but, as it is, they seem to be a nice house rule for us. | |
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crabrazil
Skirmisher
29 Posts
| | 01/18/2007 5:57 AM |
| i use this rule.
each AP used by a PC, becomes a single point used in ANY situation by a important NPC.
eg: you roll 24 and hit the vampire Ac 23, so, using my DM pool of AP, i use 2 of the points suddenly rising the AC to 25. You Miss. Describing it:
Suddenly the vampire Cape appears to gain life of his on. Using the fluid motion of the attempted dodge you note that the cape wraps in your blade changing the direction of the attack to a empty space.
hope it´s help. | |
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