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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
    
Montreal
 | | 12/12/2006 11:24 AM |
| Another question: a PC and an NPC are in combat. At one point, the NPC realizes that he's going to lose, and withdraws from combat. The PC decides to pursue him, because he doesn't want him to get away.
Let's assume that the NPC and the PC cannot run. They are limited to a double-move action at most during their turn (e.g. they're in a forest, or whatever).
Let's also assume that both have a same base speed, say 30'.
Theoretically, as per the rules, each the PC and NPC act on their respective turn on the initiative, so essentially they'll double-move alternately, one never out-distancing the other.
I recall that the DMG (or the PH?) mentions this situation, and suggests that the creature with the better CON modifier (if i recall correctly) eventually be able to out-distance the other.
But, in truth, i think this is a clear downside of the turn-based round.
I'd like for two creatures running after each other to have a dynamic race, where there is not alternately a gap and and a total absence of a gap between the two creatures.
Any ideas on how to resolve that? I have some preliminary thoughts, but i'd like to hear suggestions or counter-arguments if you think the present way the rules work is fine.
Sky
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The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 12/12/2006 11:43 AM |
| | I thought that having a chase sequence would be a cool idea in one of my games. It didn't turn out to be cool at all. After about 15 minutes I placed a small river in front of the NPC being chased and had him fail a balance check so the PC's could catch him. (After 15 minutes of boring the hell out of the players I wanted to make sure that they caught the NPC) | |
Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 12/12/2006 12:07 PM |
| That's my point actually, Star: i've never met another human being that ran exactly at the same speed as i do. Sometimes, he'll be about the same speed for the first strides, but you'll lose him or he'll catch up eventually. Normally, after only a minute of running (at most!) either one creature catched the other or out distanced him.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 12/12/2006 2:56 PM |
| That's why it is represented by a Con check, not just who has the highest Con. That way, anyone can potentially get away or anyone can catch up.
However, you want a dynamic race. What you could say is have both parties declare their intentions at the same time, standard action by standard action. So for instance, PC can move his 30' at the same time NPC can do the same. The next action of the round, the PC can try to take a shot at the same time the NPC runs away or continue running. There's still the limit on how many standard/move actions you take, but this way you can have a more dynamic race. Full runs can be spaced out over the entire round.
This is what I can think of doing in a few minutes. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 12/12/2006 3:25 PM |
| Well, the game mechanics provide some options.
Withdraw
Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square. (Invisible enemies still get attacks of opportunity against you, and you can’t withdraw from combat if you’re blinded.) You can’t take a 5-foot step during the same round in which you withdraw.
If, during the process of withdrawing, you move out of a threatened square (other than the one you started in), enemies get attacks of opportunity as normal.
You may not withdraw using a form of movement for which you don’t have a listed speed.
Note that despite the name of this action, you don’t actually have to leave combat entirely.
So the PC bases the NPC, but the NPC withdraws, and gets away without provoking an AoO. This happens every round, nobody gains on anyone.
And, according to overland movement, you can "Hustle" for a pretty long time.
However, to make a chase scene interesting, and realistic, terrain isn't just sitting there forcing you not to run.
Withdrawing is a FULL ROUND action, so, if, at any point, the NPC falls prone or needs to do something that isn't part of a move, they will provoke an AoO.
You're chasing the NPC down a shallow hill and over a stream.
If you've hiked, you know that there are tree roots, rocks, loose dirt, decayed leaves, and other difficulties.
You might compare the surface to uneven flagstone, which is DC 10 balance.
It's sloped, so, that's +2 more. (you might just go with slope initially)
It's a bit slippery (perhaps) which is another +2.
You may be skipping over deadfalls or bigger rocks, which is another +2.
The NPC is trying to move at double speed.
Accelerated Movement: You can try to walk across a precarious surface more quickly than normal. If you accept a –5 penalty, you can move your full speed as a move action. (Moving twice your speed in a round requires two Balance checks, one for each move action used.)
So, it sounds easy for an NPC to double move down a moderate wooded slope while running for his life... but it's not.
He should have to make two balance checks, with a -5 penalty, and each one is going to be AT LEAST 12, even if the hill is pretty minor.
I'd say, even if the PC is chasing the NPC across a grassy meadow, they still probably make balance checks every so often, perhaps a lower DC, even if it's only DC 4, and they take the -5 penalty, but make two checks.
This could happen running through a crowded city when bumping into pedestrians or not tripping over curbs..
You might have to jump over a stream, or double move across some slippery stones.
Beyond that, the PCs should have access to other means with which to gain speed or attacks.
1 - Reach Weapon! Withdraw only works on the initial square you leave.
2 - Expeditious Retreat (L1 spell) which speeds the PC.
3 - Spring Attack or the like.
4 - Tanglefoot bags? How cheap are these things, and they kick butt. I give them to NPC goblins and you should too.
5 - Entangle, Hold Person, Web, Evard's Black Tentacles, Ice Storm
When you think about it, it's actually rare when an NPC can run away for any length of time without provoking some tough balance checks, jump checks, etc.
Tumbling costs double movement for the squares you tumble through, so, that slows the NPC if they end up Tumbling.
Now, I don't recommend doing balance checks every time a PC double moves in a dungeon with flagstones...
But if you get into a chase scene, if it's unexpected, just tell your Players that you need a minute, and consider something like this...
"You chase the NPC for about 30 seconds, not gaining or losing ground... the ground slopes downward gradually into a tree covered valley. (NPC rolls first balance check, makes it... NPC rolls second balance check, fails.) About 30 feet into the descent, the NPC trips over a root and crashes forward, sliding in the rotted leaves another 10 feet.
Make a balance check... PC makes it.
You're just about on the NPC, make another balance check (For the 2nd half of the double move).
PC makes it.
You skid to a halt over the prone NPC... if he tries to stand up, you can take an attack of opportunity (which the PC uses to take advantage of their Improved Grapple skill)."
If a PC expects to be chasing someone, they really should prepare some of the spells, and buy some tanglefoot bags. If not, don't feel bad for them when your NPC escapes or uses the same tricks to slow the PCs.
All of a sudden, chases are exciting again. (Picture an NPC slowing the PCs with an ICE STORM during a chase through public streets... now, the NPC has hurt them and killed civilians, making the stakes of the chase even higher).
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kestrel.ca
Underboss
1676 Posts
| | 12/12/2006 3:42 PM |
| To determine outcome of a race in which both racers have the same base speed, I'd make opposed checks (Con or Dex, depending on how long the race is) with the amount by which one beats the other indicating how much ground he gained on the other. At a base of 30', a (N)PC can run 120' in a round. If for example one rolls a 19 and the other rolls 12, you could rule that the winner gains 7', 14', or 35' on the other (depending on how variable you want to make the results). I'd probably round the above results to 5', 15', and 35'. Personally, I'd be inclined to go with double the difference in feet as distance gained.
You could further modify the roll by giving synergy bonuses (usually +2) for a high Tumble or Balance score as this could conceivably allow you to better navigate obstacles in your path. | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 12/12/2006 6:28 PM |
| Very good posts there guys, thanks for the insight.
Oh, and YRM, never mind my question in the other thread about where the balance checks come from.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 12/13/2006 4:58 AM |
| BTW, I apologize for being lazy about mixing the word Skill and Feat in certain places.
I type fast when I reply. (If I didn't, judging by some of my posts, I'd never do anything else.) | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 12/13/2006 7:29 AM |
| I was just talking to the other DM in our gaming group, and he reminded me about offering the PC a spot check to notice that the chase was entering rougher or sloped terrain, which would let the PC know that they might have to start making balance checks (and so would the NPC).
Some things, you'd spot without a check...
"The NPC runs across a busy street (roll reflex save) and narrowly avoids being trampled by a horse drawn cart. Do you continue to follow?"
If the PC says "yes" they'd know to expect to make a save to avoid being trampled. I might give a bonus to the save since the NPC had just disrupted the traffic, slowing it down. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 12/13/2006 8:39 AM |
| After reading the relevant replies in this thread, i think i'll include balance checks for running or even hustling through at least slightly difficult terrain. For flag stones, i don't think i'll do it, this would mean anyone walking anywhere would need to make balance checks all the time - bummer. I'll use my judgement and include balance checks to spice up the game when necessary and fun.
Also, i like the idea of giving or taking a bit of distance to of from a runner. I might include a DEX check (with AC/pen if applicable), with some slight adjustment depending on the balance check, to see if runners gain or lose ground during a few rounds of running after each other.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 12/13/2006 9:32 AM |
| | Sounds good... and if you just do a flat out chase across safe surfaces for a long distance, you can always fall back on the CON modifier check to see who tires first. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 12/13/2006 11:03 AM |
| Yeah. Although, as you stated earlier, long flat safe surfaces don't really exist, do they? Except perhaps in the outer plane of concrete...
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 12/13/2006 4:53 PM |
| I use obstacles that PCs and NPCs have to avoid. They can try to leap over a log to cut the distance, or they can be safe and go around it. They can try to use a short-cut with a dangerous climb to get ahead of the enemy. They can decide to make balance checks to move at full speed down a steep slope instead of slowing down and being careful... this adds they dynamic feel without the actual dynamics.
I also let a PC use ability checks and skill checks to try to cut the distance. Maybe they see a neat shortcut that the other PC missed. Maybe they recognize that some mud is soft and will slow their enemy down, but they can be faster by avoiding it.
When it comes to catching the enemy, I often make it so that the PC has to see their opportunity. I'll leave a way for them to charge the enemy and get to them in a turn (and attack) if they think of the right method of getting through the path.
I don't favor these close foot races because they involve a lot of map - which usually takes a lot of time or ends up being really inacurate. But when the need arises, there are plenty of options to make it fun. | |
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Sulaco
Underboss
1605 Posts
| | 12/15/2006 11:09 AM |
| Posted By kestrel.ca on 12/12/2006 3:42 PM
To
determine outcome of a race in which both racers have the same base
speed, I'd make opposed checks (Con or Dex, depending on how long the
race is) with the amount by which one beats the other indicating how
much ground he gained on the other. At a base of 30', a (N)PC can run
120' in a round. If for example one rolls a 19 and the other rolls 12,
you could rule that the winner gains 7', 14', or 35' on the other
(depending on how variable you want to make the results). I'd probably
round the above results to 5', 15', and 35'. Personally, I'd be
inclined to go with double the difference in feet as distance gained.
You
could further modify the roll by giving synergy bonuses (usually +2)
for a high Tumble or Balance score as this could conceivably allow you
to better navigate obstacles in your path.
I'd simplify that and just say that the winner gains 5 ft. on the loser.
For urban chases through streets and alleys - or even in forests, dugneons, castles and such - a cornering check might be appropriate as well. Have each character make a DEX check when changing direction/turning a corner, and if they fail they drop back 5 ft. | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 12/15/2006 1:38 PM |
| It might be better to use rules like Bull Rush: you gain 5' for every 5 points difference round down, minimum 5'. So if one gets 12 and the other a 13, the winner gains 5'. If one gets 10 and the other 20, then it is 10', etc.
I like the use of Dex fo changing direction. This type of foot race still requires a lot of map drawing, though, but it is a lot more dynamic. | |
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For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
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