| Author | Messages | |
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
    
Montreal
 | | 12/12/2006 11:28 AM |
| Edit: (Can't edit the titles, can we?) EDITED by Zenthrus: I can. Just ask  ) Triple edit: Gee, thanks for that, Z!
Considering that attacks of opportunity leave you little leeway in combat to move around in threatened squares, i find that the rules for withdrawing are a little too easy and allow anyone to escape battle without suffering attacks of opportunity (unless he's totally surrounded). Especially when coupled to the, IMO, poor racing rules (see other post).
I was thinking of house-ruling that withdraw allows you to circumvent an attack of opportunity as usual, but that you could only accomplish a single-move instead of a double-move during a withdraw full round action. Any thoughts on this?
Sky
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The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/12/2006 12:10 PM |
| Posted By Skyscraper on 12/12/2006 11:28 AM
Edit: title should read "Withdraw... too easy?" (Can't edit the titles, can we?)
Considering that attacks of opportunity leave you little leeway in combat to move around in threatened squares, i find that the rules for withdrawing are a little too easy and allow anyone to escape battle without suffering attacks of opportunity (unless he's totally surrounded). Especially when coupled to the, IMO, poor racing rules (see other post).
I was thinking of house-ruling that withdraw allows you to circumvent an attack of opportunity as usual, but that you could only accomplish a single-move instead of a double-move during a withdraw full round action. Any thoughts on this?
Sky
I don't have too much of a problem with withdraw as written. Since only the first square is protected, any situation where someone will have to move through 2 threatened squares to get free is in trouble, and this is particularly easy to set up if melee reach is involved. It also only puts the character two moves away, which for my villains generally seems to mean they get shot/charged/spelled to death as they flee anyway, unless they're really wussy and run early.  | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 12/12/2006 3:07 PM |
| | I also find it not a problem. I think house ruling it as a single move is just too much beacuse you are still right in the thick of things. Withdrawing is more of an issue for PCs, rather than NPCS, I find, and is pretty much used to get them out of trouble. If you limit it to a single move, you are still too close to the danger to be effectively removed from it. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
901 Posts
| | 12/12/2006 3:46 PM |
| I mentioned this in the other thread, but, Balance checks can be a lot more common than DMs actually use. They're not just for narrow surfaces.
If a PC Double Moves, as in a withdraw action, they make two balance checks at -5 (one for each half of the movement). Look at the Balance checks for rough terrain and realize that most terrains are going to qualify for at least a minor check. Even if you're running across a perfectly flat field of trimmed grass, but it's wet from dew, you're looking at two checks, DC 2, with a -5 penalty. A lot of classes don't put anything into balance, or wear armor with a check penalty, so, DC 2 with a -5 penalty is missable.
There are countless low level spells and low cost items that slow movement, most don't offer a save against slowing the movement. Ice Storm, Entangle, Tanglefoot Bags, Evard's Black Tentacles, Web, Hold Person, etc.
There are many other spells, Expeditions Retreat, Haste, Dimension Door, Fly, that can boost a PC's chase speed.
And beyond that, there are reach weapons.
AND, if the NPC double moves in a straight line, the PC can just charge him.
A really fun chase scene might be the entire party of PCs chasing a rogue with a lot of ranks in balance, tumble, etc.
One by one, the PCs slip, fall, or fall victim to the Rogue's wands of Grease or Entangle (when he doesn't withdraw for a turn). Eventually, the rogue gets away and you've taught your PCs the value of tanglefoot bags.
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 12/12/2006 6:23 PM |
| I must have a lot in my balance skill because i rarely fall when running outside...
Seriously, where does this come from "If a PC Double Moves, as in a withdraw action, they make two balance checks at -5 (one for each half of the movement)"?
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 12/12/2006 8:24 PM |
| | Is this in reference to difficult terrain moving at full speed? If not, and you really mean every time you double move, that would really bog down combats by adding a lot of extra rolls and people falling down everywhere. Funny to see, but it would make combat cumbersome. Do you do this in your own sessions? | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 12/12/2006 8:26 PM |
| | Just read the other thread (Foot race...). Never mind my question, as it is answered there. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
901 Posts
| | 12/12/2006 8:38 PM |
| Right.
Quick clarification. If you look at the balance skill, it talks about rough surfaces and conditions that might apply to those surfaces. PCs make balance checks at half speed (normally). They make it at -5 for moving base speed... and two checks for moving base speed 2 times.
You don't do it for double moving in combat, assuming the floors are even, or mostly even. Nobody is tryint go get away and you don't need to add that level of complexity.
But, as far as running away from someone outside.
Yes, I can run across my backyard without falling.
But can I run across my hilly neighborhood housing plan, being chased by a guy with a baseball bat who is just behind me, with morning dew or dead leaves on the ground, and obstacles in my way, while wearing armor?
At that point, you're not sprinting like you'd sprint on a track, but "double moving" or perhaps in the real world 75% of your speed, is the max you can go, and you're risking tripping on a hedge, or falling when jumping off of a 3 foot retaining wall, or just slipping when you look behind you to see if the guy with the bat is any closer.
So I think it's realistic for the DM to start applying checks to a retreating, long term "withdraw".
Next time you're hiking, try running at 80% or so through the woods while not on a trail.
If the chase is in city streets, perhaps use reflex saves to have the chasers avoid trampling by horses or horse drawn wagons.
The thing about a good chase though, at least, the first time you run one, is that it's tough to just improvise without having done a little pre-planning. But every other time you run a chase, it just gets easier.
The rules don't always make perfect real-world sense, but, in this case, I think you can make an argument that they work and make a reasonable amount of sense. | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 12/13/2006 9:01 AM |
| Your arguments are good. I think it's a question of common sense: how encumbered is the ground, how difficult is it? Plain grass makes it easy not to fall, but i agree that wet grass can be tricky (i play soccer, and when we try to dodge each other, we fall, even with our spiked shoes). I think it's pretty much a question of assessing the condition of the ground, and realizing that in case of a chase, there is stress and you're trying to move as best and fast as you can.
Sky
Edit: i actually wrote real other words instead of some i wanted to write.
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The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
901 Posts
| | 12/13/2006 9:29 AM |
| Yeah... like I said in the other thread, the other DM in my group suggested spot checks when approaching any new type of terrain that would cause balance checks. (tall tangly grass, hidden rocks, dew, wet leaves, mud, tree-falls, steep hills, traffic, ice, etc.)
BTW, I played soccer in college too, although, I was mostly a bench warmer walk-on at a small school... essentially, I was a warm body that could run and cover an opposing player. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 12/13/2006 10:18 AM |
| I think the spot checks are a bit of an overkill, except for concealed obstacles. If the ground has tall grass, you can see it. If the ground is wet, you're standing on it, you should know. If there are wet leaves, you're standing on them, you should know. Tree falls are usually rather obvious. Steep hills and traffic also.
Mud and concealed rocks might require spot checks i guess.
Generally, my impression is that running over difficult terrain or through a crowd requires some feet-eye coordination. I don't think i'd do two checks for that though, i think the single balance check is good enough for me. Two checks complicates things uselessly IMO.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 12/13/2006 10:22 AM |
| Another thing... i think that failing a balance check should not automatically yield the character falling prone on the ground. For example, perhaps failing the check by 4 or less could stop the character at the obstacle or in mid-movement, depending on the situation, and failing by 5 or more could yield the character falling prone on the ground.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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