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King O Vrock
Sergeant
396 Posts
    
 | | 12/13/2006 6:57 PM |
| OK, so I thought I understood the ECL and character level rules when I played my last character (Aasimar). When I created him, he was a 1st level paladin with 1000 xp. He gained xp as normal, but each step on the xp chart he gained, he was actually 1 level behind.
Now I've made another non-standard character and I've become confused. I created a Satyr Druid. In the MM, it states that a Satyr starts with '5 levels of Satyr' which give him 5d8 HD plus some other features. It also states that the level adjustment is +2.Â
When I created him, I assumed that I received all of the race abilities of the satyr, and that my ECL was now 3 (level 1 druid +2 level adjustment) and that I started with 3000 xp.Â
Now that I've gained enough xp to move up a level (over 6000), I'm wondering:
A) Do I receive the ability increase for 4th level? Am I 4th level as far as feats received, ability increases, max skill ranks, etc? Or am I level 2 for those characteristics?
B) Am I truly ECL only 3 or do I have to also take into account the '5 levels of Satyr'? Do I really start out as ECL Level 8? 5 Satyr + 1 Druid + Level adjusment +2?
Any help would be appreciated as I am royally confused. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
901 Posts
| | 12/13/2006 7:21 PM |
| ECL is Effective Character Level
It means Level Adjustment + Racial Hit Dice.
An Ogre has four hit dice and a +2 Level Adjustment (due to stat and armor increases mostly).
So an Ogre has an ECL of 6.
There are various rules for leveling up as a monster though, so you can follow along with normal PCs instead of starting out way too powerful.
One way is to take our example Ogre... start him off with FIVE negative levels (see the negative level condition).
Remove those negative levels, one at a time, until the Ogre is rid of them, and then he can take Class levels as a fighter or something.
There are other more detailed ways of progressing as a creature with a high ECL in various books and web articles. | |
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King O Vrock
Sergeant
396 Posts
| | 12/13/2006 7:35 PM |
| | Thanks YRM, but can you relate that explanation to my example? | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4592 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 12/13/2006 7:36 PM |
| Posted By King O Vrock on 12/13/2006 6:57 PM
 B) Am I truly ECL only 3 or do I have to also take into account the '5 levels of Satyr'? Do I really start out as ECL Level 8? 5 Satyr + 1 Druid + Level adjusment +2?
You're ECL 8. 5 Racial Hit Dice + Level Adjustment 2 + Druid 1 = ECL 8.
Assuming the campaign you're playing in is average party level 4, you shouldn't gain another level until you've accumulated enough EXP to reach 9th-level.
ECL is always Racial Hit Dice + Level Adjustment + Class Levels.
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/13/2006 9:48 PM |
| And now to go on a tangent, my biggest problem with the LA system is it tends to treat racial abilities as a separate modifier on top of racial hit dice, even when said racial hit dice are of a suboptimal type, like giant or humanoid.
I'm not sure that a satyr (minus the pipes ability) is really worth close to the same as a level 7 character, but that's what the system as written thinks. For sub-par HD types like humanoid and giant, I think you can basically forgive a single special ability/ability modifier at a rate of about one per HD and call it the class feature for that level.
Take gnolls, for example. The MM thinks they have a LA of +1, because they have +4 too many stat adjustments for a regular race; however the rest of their abilities don't really add up to nearly what a dwarf or elf has, and on top of that they're saddled with crappy levels of humanoid (worse than any of the NPC classes except for commoner) as their first 2 levels. I think they're probably pretty balanced at +0.
Obviously you can't do this for every monster in the book, particularly those with good "classes" like outsiders and monstrous humanoids, but I think in general the giants and humanoids need to be re-examined. | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 12/14/2006 1:19 AM |
| I was in a campaign that he DM asked we all had some LA. I found for most classes, anytine you were +2 LA or over, it wasn't worth it for the "normal" monsterous classes. Often times, by the time you got to te mid levels, the abilities you got (like a drow's faerie fire, SR, and darkvisin) weren't the same as a humanoid of the equivalent level.
Other LA have he same problem. The loss of hit dice really isn't worht the abilities you get. One fireball (or unholly blight) can take out majy creatures that are supposed to be equivalent to the same chaacter levels. Not to say that there aren't some that are worht it. Satyr sounds like one I wouldn't want to be, but for instance, I'd gladly be a maug any day.
I guess it epends on what you really want to play. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
901 Posts
| | 12/14/2006 7:36 AM |
| Usually, a creature's HD are d8, which isn't bad. Druids and Clerics do fine with D8.
If you do use a creature with HD, they should follow the same rules as leveling a PC, where you get max HP at the first HD.
Also note that your Skills and Feats ARE based on your total effective level, not your Class Level.
If you are Satyr with one level of Druid, you still get the feats, skills, and stat adjustments of an 8th level PC.
However, if I was your DM, and you were playing as a Satyr, right now, you'd be a non-druid Satyr with 3 negative levels, and every time you leveled up, you'd remove one negative level.
(so you'd be, effectively, level 4)
A lot of monsters or templates suffer from low HD and low HP at first.
Some abilities, like Spell Resistance, can be more and more useful over a campaign. Remember that a lot of higher level baddies have caster levels and they aren't always super high level, so you can avoid a lot of effects as a drow.
A half dragon makes up for loss of BaB and HP by gaining STR bonus and Armor bonus, though the breath weapon doesn't grow extremely well as you gain levels.
It's up to the player to decide what is worth it, but I don't recommend playing anything with an ECL higher than 3, unless you're looking at stacking abilities.
As a DM, I did make a Rakshasa with levels of Sorcerer (which stack with it's racial levels of Sorcerer), and the guy looked to be extremely dangerous.
I have run some sessions at conventions where I provide PCs though.
Once, I had a group of a dozen Level 6 PCs to pick from. One was a Centaur, equipped and built to his level, but without any "class" levels. It functioned effectively with other L6 PCs.
Another time, I had a deathmatch betwen multiple Level 8 PCs. Every man for himself, and also teams of two in later sessions.
One of the PCs was a Gnoll Barbarian, and it came in 1st in a team session while paired with a Warmage.
Another PC was a Half Dragon Cleric in good armor (w shield). In spite of it's lower spell levels and lowish HP, it functioned quite well as a hard hitting melee warrior that could heal itself and avoid being hit.
So, in actual practice, I've witnessed the ECLs and LAs not being as imbalanced as people may think.
This was the web-page-blurb for the deathmatch event, which was run on my tabletop town. I actually tweaked the rules a bit after the first session.
Deathmatch in Dagger FallsÂ<- LINK
The event was pretty fun as people got to test drive a lot of PCs and try them out against other classes. Oh, and there was a Gith Monk... he almost won the first match by scoring treasure points for moving from Building to Building (I'd put in points for moving to various locations to keep people from turtling... this was around the time of assault points in the tile version of DDM)
You'd get 45 points if you set foot in all the buildings, and there were other 10 point bonuses for certain rooftops.
The Gith Monk was close to winning, but needed to make a 50-50 running leap from the temple roof to the gate house roof.
He missed, slow-fell down the wall, and landed in front of the Half Orc Fighter who had a turn next.
The Half Orc Fighter rolled a crit and confirmed, killing the low HP monk in one lucky shot.
Of course, the Gith Monk, having to deal with level adjustments, didn't have a ton of HP. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
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silenttimo
Skirmisher
22 Posts
| | 12/14/2006 8:28 AM |
| For Savage tide that I am DMing, I created a 1st HD bugbear DMPCÂ (LA +1, i.e. 1.000 xp).
Sure, at 1st level, he was far more efficient and dangerous than his fellow comrades.
But he has to take 3 HD-levels before taking his 1st class level...
And by the time we finish the 1st adventure (closing !), he'll have 2-HD while his friends will be 3rd level !
With the UA option (buying your LA with xp), I will have to pay 6.000 xp at 7th level to get rid of the +1 LA.
And all of his comrades will be aroun 5.000 ahead of him.
However, I do recognize the bugbear to be quite powerful for a +1 LA (+3 natural AC, around +4 or +6 net bonus on characteristics, several bonus on skills, darkvision, 3 HD i.e. better BAB and saves than a gnoll...).
However, I am heading to duskblade (solid background about his relations with elves), and this is what we will have around 10th level :
- 10th level human PCs,
- 7th level + 3-HD bugbear PC, 5.000 xp late
I think he will be balanced...
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 12/14/2006 9:19 AM |
| | I'm liking a lot of the monster classes that they are adding to products now. They basically spread the abilities and class levels over several levels so you can play a 1st level creature with a high ECL. For instance 1st level you may get a racial ability and a racial hit die, 2nd level a class level of your hoice, 3rd more racial abilities but no hit die, etc. I don't remember seeing one for the Ghaele Eladrin, but I bet you could do it. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
901 Posts
| | 12/14/2006 10:28 AM |
| Posted By gss_000 on 12/14/2006 9:19 AM
I'm liking a lot of the monster classes that they are adding to products now. They basically spread the abilities and class levels over several levels so you can play a 1st level creature with a high ECL. For instance 1st level you may get a racial ability and a racial hit die, 2nd level a class level of your hoice, 3rd more racial abilities but no hit die, etc. I don't remember seeing one for the Ghaele Eladrin, but I bet you could do it.
That's right.
Negative levels is the easy way out if you don't have a monster build.
Negative levels wouldn't be good for a creature with too high of an ECL.
And honestly, what would you gain, working to become the Ghaele in the stat blocks, when an Aasimar Favored Soul or something similar is probably going to be a lot more effective at the high levels.
The ECL doesn't work so well on super tough monsters. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
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Oryan77
Sergeant
950 Posts
| | 12/14/2006 10:53 AM |
| Posted By King O Vrock on 12/13/2006 6:57 PM
He gained xp as normal, but each step on the xp chart he gained, he was actually 1 level behind.
For starters, thinking about it that way always confused me. I don't know why the books teach it to us like that, it's confusing.
The easiest way to think about it is by simply adding up all of the levels and saying "I am an ECL 8 Satyr Bard and I have 28,000 xp" (same amount of xp as a level 8 character). Thinking of it as having xp as a character 2 levels lower confused me a lot at first.
That leads to DM's allowing PC's that are multiple levels higher than all of the other PC's. Then players start complaining because Bob's Satyr is destroying all the NPC's and their level 1 humans aren't getting any action. If the DM says everyone starts at level X and you play a PC that has a higher ECL but you just won't gain XP for several levels...that's the same as playing a level 5 human fighter while everyone else is a level 1 human fighter. The difference being, you're saying you won't gain fighter xp for 4 levels.
In my game, if I start PC's out at level 3, then no one can play an ECL character higher than an ECL 3. I'm basically telling them, "You have 3,000 xp...build a character that has a level or ECL of 3,000 xp (or 3rd level).
I like the negative level idea, I never thought of that. It allows a person to play a higher ECL creature at low levels without technically being a higher level than everyone else.
B) Am I truly ECL only 3 or do I have to also take into account the '5
levels of Satyr'? Do I really start out as ECL Level 8? 5 Satyr + 1
Druid + Level adjusment +2?
You are considered an ECL 8 PC, the same as a level 8 human Druid. The DM should have started you out at 28,000 xp. If the other PC's started out with fewer than 28,000 xp, then you are higher level than them.
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/14/2006 4:33 PM |
| Posted By YRM_DM on 12/14/2006 7:36 AM
Also note that your Skills and Feats ARE based on your total effective level, not your Class Level.
If you are Satyr with one level of Druid, you still get the feats, skills, and stat adjustments of an 8th level PC.
This is incorrect. Skills and feats are based on total HD not inlcuding LA. So a 1st level druid satyr has the skills and feats of a 6th level character. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/14/2006 4:35 PM |
| Posted By gss_000 on 12/14/2006 9:19 AM
I'm liking a lot of the monster classes that they are adding to products now. They basically spread the abilities and class levels over several levels so you can play a 1st level creature with a high ECL. For instance 1st level you may get a racial ability and a racial hit die, 2nd level a class level of your hoice, 3rd more racial abilities but no hit die, etc. I don't remember seeing one for the Ghaele Eladrin, but I bet you could do it.
Savage Species has a bunch of these, including the ghaele. It does need a little work to convert it to 3.5, though. | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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King O Vrock
Sergeant
396 Posts
| | 12/14/2006 8:19 PM |
| thanks for the replies guys.Â
Clearly I was in error when I assumed that my Satyr Druid was ECL level 3. If my DM and I had realized I was actually ECL 8, I'm guessing there's no way either of us would have decided to let me play the character (he did take the DR away, but that is not equivalent to 5 levels for sure).
After a couple sessions of play with my character, I must say that considering a 1st level satyr druid to be the equivalent of an 8th level human druid is absurd. Other than my 55 hp, and my pipes ability (reasonably good at low levels, but with a starting DC of 13, not very feasible at higher levels) my characters physical attributes are pretty lame. Fun to roleplay, but in the best interests of the party and my enjoyment, I should probably just create a new character.
When I was running a campaign with non-standard races, I created a level chart for each possible race (using the Savage Species as an example), thus I avoided all this confusion. I'm sure it has some balance issues as not all races have been explored fully, but it works quite well compared to figuring out this ECL mess. | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4592 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 12/15/2006 12:14 AM |
| Posted By King O Vrock on 12/14/2006 8:19 PM
After a couple sessions of play with my character, I must say that considering a 1st level satyr druid to be the equivalent of an 8th level human druid is absurd. Other than my 55 hp, and my pipes ability (reasonably good at low levels, but with a starting DC of 13, not very feasible at higher levels) my characters physical attributes are pretty lame.
55hp seems quite high. Average Level 1 Satyr Druid would have 39 HP before pre-adjusted Con bonus is added (Max of 54 + pre-adjusted Con bonus) [since Satyr have a +2 Con modifier, the pre-adjusted bonus is whatever it would be before racial modifiers are applied. An average Level 8 Human Druid would have 40 HP before Con bonus is added (Max of 64 + Con bonus). While the Human has a sizable advantage in terms of potential, the average is almost identical.
In a party of 3rd-level characters, 55hp is excessive since your average fighter would only have 22hp + Con (Max of 30 + Con) while barbarians would be at 24 + Con (Max 36 + Con) thus putting a non-frontline character with the best HP of the party.
Feats are about the same (Human=4/Satyr=3) as are skill points (Human=40+Int/Satyr=34+Int [Satyrs have a +2 Int bonus putting it at 40 + pre-modified Int]).
Human is sadly lacking in the stat boost department (+2) while the Satyr has a total of +11 (+2 to every stat but Str, +1 for 4th character level).
Satyr is also winning in the AC department (+5 Β natural/1 Dex]) since the human has no bonus here.
Satyr also wins for DR (not only does it have DR, but it's against cold iron which is not commonly used).
Satyr also has the advantage of better sight (low-light), a natural weapon, and a (largely ineffective) supernatural ability (although there are feats to boost the DC after 6th-level only Charm Person has any possible use).
The AC advantage, stat advantage, DR, and special abilities are balanced by the Human's access to 4th-level spells (while the Satyr is limited to 1st-level spells). It could be argued ad nauseum which is more useful (more spells or constantly better AC and DR).
So, overall....I'd argue that an 8th-level Human Druid and a 1st-level Satyr Druid are not terribly unbalanced from each other. Doesn't seem quite so absurd in context.
That said, if you and your DM don't think the character will work out in the long run, it's probably best to re-write into something rather different.
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 12/15/2006 10:17 AM |
| Good analysis. I will probably open that can of worms, though....
For casters, the level hit really is a hard thing. Not now necessarily, but in a few levels definitely. It's essentially the same problem with multiclassing. The game assumes (through the CR of traps and monsters) access to certain spells and abilities the character doesn't have. You can't be a primary caster usually. Now, if you are building the character like a gish or some other partial casting character, and you are not the primary caster, then it works a lot better and the LA doesn't work as well. Whether it does or doesn't in this case can be debated.
Now that I think about it, although the system is flawed and has major problems, it's too bad that non-associated class levels don't work the same for PCs as it does for monsters. | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 12/15/2006 1:30 PM |
| Posted By YRM_DM on 12/14/2006 7:36 AM This was the web-page-blurb for the deathmatch event, which was run on my tabletop town. I actually tweaked the rules a bit after the first session. Deathmatch in Dagger FallsÂ<- LINK The event was pretty fun as people got to test drive a lot of PCs and try them out against other classes.
Holy crap, that's a nice fortified town there YRM!! How many reincarnations did it take you to get that done? 
The D&D deathmatch idea appears really cool, especially on a setting like that. I might try something similar one day, if not on a similar setting. How was the experience? Were you DM for that game, or were you a player like everybody else? Did i understand your post correctly: 12 players played at the same time? How did it play out? Any interesting anecdotes?
Do you have the stats for the PCs you created? I'd be super interested in seeing what you did.
Sky
Edit: P.S.: so as not to hijack this thread too much, if you feel like replying, perhaps creating a new thread would be a good idea.
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The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4592 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 12/17/2006 12:08 AM |
| Posted By gss_000 on 12/15/2006 10:17 AM
For casters, the level hit really is a hard thing. Not now necessarily, but in a few levels definitely. It's essentially the same problem with multiclassing. Exactly why primary spellcasters should avoid ECL like the plague.
When multi-classing, you are giving up focus in one area to gain benefits from a different area. Primary spellcasters should be very wary of any multi-classing and even of taking most prestige classes. Anything that slows you down from getting Elemntal Swarm, Implosion, or Time Stop should give you pause.
Back to the Satyr in question, being a Druid is a sub-optimal choice. The primary benefit (+2 Wis) does not justify the loss in spell power for a primary caster. Especially since Aasimar offers the same primary advantage to a divine spellcaster for an ECL of 1. Granted, Fey hit dice and saves are also sub-optimal for virtually any class, making Satyr a poor choice for its cost regardless (although it's still a pretty nifty concept for role-playing).
The best options for ECL characters are Dragons (yikes) and outsiders while Monstrous Humanoids and Magical Beasts can also be good choices. The worst choices for ECL characters are Fey.
If you wouldn't normally build a multi-class character, you should avoid ECL characters. Each "monster" level is adding time until higher spell levels are attained. I tend to mult-class a LOT (even as primary spellcasters), so I speak from experience. Losing one level of casting ability is not major issue (getting 9th-level spells at level 18 instead of 17 won't kill you) particularly since you're still gaining spell levels as quickly as spontaneous casters (Wiz4/Rogue 1 and Sorc 5 are both still casting 2nd-level spells). Any time you lose more than one level, the benefits had better be substantial (i.e. +8 Str from the half-dragon template which is exceptional for any melee combatant character).
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 12/17/2006 9:17 AM |
| Any time you lose more than one level, the benefits had better be substantial
Just a little tangent. I played a full progression Elemental Savant in LG that lost 2 caster levels from that Pclass. The loss of 8th level spells by the time the character was retired wasn't too big a deal, but it did mean he didn't shine as much as some who had really massive spells. What was funny was I chose water as his element for RP reasons, which is sub optimal, but the choice and the abilities gained as an elemental (no flanking, no stunning, no sneak attack, swimming, cold immunity, no paralysis, wirlwind) saved his life on two occassions (no, I can't be death attacked 15th level assasin  ) and were extremely useful in a whole slew of mods. Sometimes you just get lucky with the effects of the ECL . | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
901 Posts
| | 12/17/2006 8:50 PM |
| Posted By IanB on 12/14/2006 4:33 PM Posted By YRM_DM on 12/14/2006 7:36 AM
Also note that your Skills and Feats ARE based on your total effective level, not your Class Level.
If you are Satyr with one level of Druid, you still get the feats, skills, and stat adjustments of an 8th level PC.
This is incorrect. Skills and feats are based on total HD not inlcuding LA. So a 1st level druid satyr has the skills and feats of a 6th level character.
Page 172 of the DMG, 2nd Column
"Use ECL instead of Character Level when referring to Table 3-2 Experience and Level Dependent Benefits in the Player's Handbook."
In the previous paragraph, it addresses PCs with racial HD.
They get full HP and 4x Stats for their first level of whatever monster they are, and they don't get that bonus again for their first class level.
So, if a Player is a LA +3 creature, like a Half Dragon... and they've earned enough EXP to be ECL 9.
The player would be 3 Half Dragon / 6 Fighter. His character level is 6, but his ECL is 9.
He'd get 2 Stat increases and 3 Feats based on Level Dependent Benefits.
He would not get bonus feats as a 9th level Fighter of course...
I thought the same thing you did until one of my players pointed this out.
---ALSO---
Sky, thanks for the kind words about the tabletop.
http://www.voidgamers.com/channel/HirstArts/HADD6/b.342.r.326.html
That's the other big tabletop item. The PCs got captured there, fought there way out, and now are stewards of that keep. They pay about 2.5k gold a month for various soldiers to defend it, and we may have a side session as it looks like the keep will come under attack while they are away.
I'm not sure if I still have the PCs I built for the Deathmatch in Dagger Falls.
All in all, the event went pretty well, although, we did tweak the rules between games 1-2 to correct an imbalance that I didn't catch in testing. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/18/2006 12:50 PM |
| The DMG is incorrect in that line, or is referring to only the experience part of the table.
If it is true that characters gain feats and skills based on ECL rather than HD, then every single creature in the MM and every subsuquent book that has a level adjustment is incorrect, along with all of the post-3.5 monster classes (for example the feral gargun in Races of Stone). I'll leave out Savage Species, since that is technically a 3.0 book, but there's just no way that line is supported by anything else in the rules. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
901 Posts
| | 12/19/2006 6:02 AM |
| I always figured NPC monsters and PC characters were treated differently.
When I look at say, Ogres, as a character...
Ogres As Characters
Ogre characters possess the following racial traits.
+10 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -4 Charisma.
Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
An ogre’s base land speed is 40 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Racial Hit Dice: An ogre begins with four levels of giant, which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +4, Ref +1, and Will +1.
Racial Skills: An ogre’s giant levels give it skill points equal to 7 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Climb, Listen, and Spot.
Racial Feats: An ogre’s giant levels give it two feats.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An ogre is automatically proficient with simple weapons, martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields.
+5 natural armor bonus.
Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Orc, Goblin, Terran.
Favored Class: Barbarian.
Level adjustment +2.
You're talking about that 2 feats for the HD.
But, according to that line in the DMG, a player would get one more feat when they achieved their +2 LA. (sixth level feat) Perhaps they assumed at the time when the core books were written that a Player would get DM permission to play a non-core race, and the DM would refer to the section about monster races for players. I know PC and NPC wealth levels are different too.
This'd be a good question to ask Sage Advice. I'd suspect they'd come back with a variety of options.
I'm sure this qualifies as one of those things that is relatively confusing and up in the air since:
1 - You can do monster progression levels, and if you do, you should get the normal feats and stat bonuses.
2 - You can do negative levels to make up for the level adjustment and just remove them.
3 - You can just have a PC start out at that ECL, higher than the party, but gaining EXP slower.
4 - It seems like NPC monsters are built differently than PCs, and they list HD gained feats.
I go by that line in the DMG since my players pointed it out because you almost always lose power on a level adjustment anyway, and the way that is stated, it does refer to level dependent benefits, and not just EXP and Levels.
I have a Tiefling PC and Aasimar PC in the party, they already have fewer HP, a step down in save progression, and less class ability and spellcasting power.
If I follow that line in the DMG, at least they get to take feats and stat boosts per their ECL, which pushes their PCs closer to balanced anyway. The players are glad they found the rule, and I don't mind because it doesn't overpower them. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/19/2006 11:28 AM |
| That's the thing, 3.5 did away with all of the differences between players and monsters with regard to feat gain, etc. It is all done strictly off of HD now. It would be a really weird oddity if the rules treated PCs and NPCs different for feat/skill gain. How would you even tell what class list to give skill points for when a character has a template and multiple classes? If it was intended for them to gain skills for those LA "levels" surely there would be some sort of rule to explain how you determine how many skills they get, or what sort of saving throw bonuses those levels carry with them, etc.
It is explained more clearly on page 2 of the FAQ, which states that you use character level (racial HD + class levels) to determine when a character gains feats and ability score increases, which is exactly how the various racial classes do it.
(The FAQ then goes on to contradict itself in the next couple questions on how you determine when a character with a level adjustment becomes an epic character, of course - the FAQ is annoying that way.) | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
901 Posts
| | 12/19/2006 12:05 PM |
| I know what you're saying, but, if you look at some of the ways to apply a template as levels, which they were doing on the WoTC boards for a while, you would get the feats and ability scores as you advanced as a "Vampire" or "Half Fiend".
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a
By the end of a template progression, you'd be exactly at the same point as if you applied the template at Level 1, but you'd earn your feats and stat points as you leveled up, no questions asked, because you're just gaining levels of "vampire". Rogue 3 / Fighter 2 / Vampire 8 = 13th level, 3 Stat boosts, 5 feats
I only pointed out the DMG quote because you seem(ed) pretty sure I'm wrong about the ECL applying to that 3-2 table. I do see what you are saying when you look at the "As a character" part of the Monster entries too, and, that's why I was initially taking your position against my players.
I can't argue that it's a cut and dry issue, but, like I said:
1 - My players' point was backed up in the DMG and parts of the FAQ as you showed.
2 - If I have to come down on one side or the other, as long as it isn't imbalancing the Player too heavily, I'll come down in favor of the player.
Most people agree that taking a LA race dilutes the power of the core class a bit. Sure, a Half-Ogre Barbarian does well, but, it's not vastly superior (if at all) to a well balanced Human or Half Orc Barbarian either.
In most other cases, Tiefling, Aasimar, Drow, Half Dragon, Half Fiend, etc, the PC suffers several setbacks, and any spellcasting class is more greatly affected.
So my conclusion was that the DMG text was "good enough for me, fairly clear, if not fully supported in other text" and, "actually helped some less effective player builds". If I'm wrong due to some errata that I haven't bothered to read, at least it's helping the players and not breaking the game.
I'm not a believer in "There is no wrong way to play D&D." I've played at some tables that were just poorly run. We've gradually improved our rules accuracy over time, and discussions like this help that cause.
But if I was in your game, and you said, "Use HD + Class Level to determine stat and feat boosts"... well, I could see your point, based on the FAQ and monster entries.
And if you were at my game, and I ruled it that it was ECL that determined stat and feat boosts, I could point to the DMG and other parts of the FAQ.
I wonder if there is an official, definitive answer that isn't contradicted.
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 12/19/2006 1:30 PM |
| Why don't you ask the question through the help interface on WOTC? I've asked a few questions there, 24 hour response time, accurate RAW answers usually.
Let me get this clear in my mind: IanB plays that the skill and feat progression doesn't takes into account the LA, while YRM does, right? In both cases however, level progression would be calculated as if the PC was a character of a level equal to HD+ LA + character level, right? So, for an ogre who has a base HD of 4 and a LA +2, the following would occur:
IanB method: 2 feats ("level" 1 and 3) and "4th level" skill points
YRM method: 3 feats ("level" 1, 3 and 6) and "6th level" skill points
Then, in both cases, you add the character levels to the "artificial 4th or 6th level" to end up with the final number of feats and skill points.
If i understand your misunderstanding correctly, i have to admit that IanB's position appears more logical since, if only for the reason that, as he said, PCs and NPCs would have their feats and skill points calculated in the same manner.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 12/19/2006 2:01 PM |
| | I thought FAQ trumped the DMG in this case. Isn't that the "official" answer? | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/19/2006 2:42 PM |
| Posted By Skyscraper on 12/19/2006 1:30 PM
Why don't you ask the question through the help interface on WOTC? I've asked a few questions there, 24 hour response time, accurate RAW answers usually.
Let me get this clear in my mind: IanB plays that the skill and feat progression doesn't takes into account the LA, while YRM does, right? In both cases however, level progression would be calculated as if the PC was a character of a level equal to HD+ LA + character level, right? So, for an ogre who has a base HD of 4 and a LA +2, the following would occur:
IanB method: 2 feats ("level" 1 and 3) and "4th level" skill points
YRM method: 3 feats ("level" 1, 3 and 6) and "6th level" skill points
Then, in both cases, you add the character levels to the "artificial 4th or 6th level" to end up with the final number of feats and skill points.
If i understand your misunderstanding correctly, i have to admit that IanB's position appears more logical since, if only for the reason that, as he said, PCs and NPCs would have their feats and skill points calculated in the same manner.
Sky
That describes my position accurately. I thought at first that it was right about YRM's but now I'm not sure that he actually gives skill points as well.
My experience with the customer service people is that while they are polite and mean well, a lot of times they get stuff even more wrong than we do.  | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/19/2006 2:50 PM |
| Posted By gss_000 on 12/19/2006 2:01 PM
I thought FAQ trumped the DMG in this case. Isn't that the "official" answer?
I think officially the primary source rule typically means that the DMG takes precedence over the FAQ, which is supposed to be providing clarifications, not rulings or new rules (see 10 million annoying discussions on EN World about the goodness/badness of believing the FAQ to be a real rules source.) In practice it seems clear to me that WotC *is* using the FAQ to deliver rulings and rules, such that they should probably change their official stance on what takes precedence. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
901 Posts
| | 12/19/2006 3:36 PM |
| ...but looking at game balance, this isn't a huge issue.
I don't give out skill points, because they are not on the 3-2 table.
Ultimately, my players get a Feat or Stat boost a level or two sooner than they would in Ian's game.
They don't get spells or class abilities sooner, and they don't get skills sooner.
Since LA characters aren't fully optimized ANYWAY, giving them the stat or skill a level sooner doesn't break anything... and, it's not like Ian or I pulled a ruling out of our behind, without looking at anything first. Assuming that one way of doing it is official, and one isn't, neither way is broken.
"Oh, nobody wants to play clerics, so, I'll house rule that they can spontaneously cast any cleric spell from any book." (this being an example of an actual house rule I saw in use at a convention... now that rule is 100% broken and pulled from the DM's behind)
This is a case where, honestly, there are multiple ways, per DM option, of allowing and leveling PCs under level adjustments.
Ian, without changing your actual official and/or house rule (whichever way is official), if a PC wanted to "level up" as a template, such as Half Fiend, where they actually put that template down as chosen levels (you're causing a template to become a class), you'd let them have the feat and stat in that case right?
They're not starting out ahead of the party in any way, or getting a jump in ECL, but actually taking levels of "ghost" or whatever (as in that link I provided above).
You know what I'm saying?
Personally, I never let my PCs start out at a higher ECL than the rest of the party anyway, so I'm not seeing a Tiefling start out with other L1 PCs.
I always applied a negative level to the PC until they made up their LA.
They always had to earn their way to their ECL, so, even if there was some official rule (and with this many optional house rules published by WoTC on the topic, it probably doesn't matter)... even if I found out that the text in the DMG is wrong, I'd still probably do it the way I'm doing it.
I might be tempted to go Ian's way if I let a PC start out as ECL 2 with a bunch of ECL 1 PCs, where the adjusted PC was essentially getting a free level.
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I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/19/2006 3:42 PM |
| No, I wouldn't. What I would be doing is filling out the levels such that I felt they were gaining sufficient abilities on the no-HD levels that it would justify their level adjustment as it currently stood (which is much the same as what the various monster classes already do.)
I do think that some of the LAs on races that have racial HD in lame 'classes' like giant are too high, as I've mentioned, but they're generally pretty close on templates or races with no racial HD (like an aasimar.)
One thing I *do* use, though, is the rules for 'buying off' level adjustments from Unearthed Arcana. Those rules definitely wouldn't work properly if players were getting feats/adjustments beyond what their HD are.
So, after 3rd level, when the aasimar specials aren't very exciting anymore, the character can pay 1000 xp per the UA rules to 'lose' his level adjustment and progress like any other character; races with higher LAs have to wait longer and can only buy off one LA at a time, etc.
They're in the SRD these days, actually: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
901 Posts
| | 12/19/2006 4:05 PM |
| I just noticed this in the template progression, which also directly contradicts the text in the DMG which explicitly states you get Feats and Stat bonuses based on total ECL.
They also do not affect when a character acquires feats, since feat acquisition is based on HD, not ECL. - WotC Article
Hit Dice
The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size like additional racial Hit Dice do.
- From the Hyperlinked SRD
Obviously, those quotes support Ian, and would have supported my argument against my players when we reached this discussion. I can't find that SRD text anywhere in the DMG of course, and I already quoted what's in the DMG. If that SRD text was somewhere in the core books that I could find and read, it pretty much means that Ian is correct and I'm not. (Though, I stand by the fact that I work my --- off to learn and implement proper rules, and no errors come out of DM laziness.)
I quickly ruled in the PC's favor, based on the DMG text... which seemed quite reasonable to me until I searched the SRD just now.
Here's another bit of text from the DMG
In contrast to the way the rest of the Dungeon Master's Guide is structured, this chapter is composed of alternative rules, concepts, and ways of doing things. So, in this chapter, you won't find varient rules set off in sidebars - the varient rules are the meat of the chapter.
This supports the idea that allowing any non-core class is based on DM discretion and is, essentially, an alternative house rule that is supported in the books.
I'm going to run these various quotes past my players again. Should we decide to switch back, which I'll leave up to them, at this level, it will affect absolutely nothing.
The feats that they gained last level, which they wouldn't have gained, would just have come THIS level instead (which they already gained... they are L11, so, not at any kind of crossroads of losing abilities or feats)
We also don't use Unearthed Arcana, (not because we don't like it, but because nobody has it).
The small consolation to me is that I usually don't lose rules arguments to my players (though I'm not out to get them) and this would mean that my original position was actually correct before they convinced me otherwise.
Sigh.
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Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/19/2006 4:18 PM |
| Well, you always have Rule Zero, too!
It shouldn't be game-breaking either way you do it with characters that are only at a +1 LA., since they can at best only be one feat ahead.
UA has some pretty interesting variant rules, many/most of which you can find in the SRD now, so you can easily kick the tires before buying, if you're inclined. They aren't all right for my game, certainly, and one of the ones I tried I decided to ditch (the variant dying rules that do away with negative hps, etc.) but some of them I definitely like. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
901 Posts
| | 12/19/2006 4:33 PM |
| I hate to fall back on "I'm the DM, so, Rule Zero biznatches."
But in this case, since we've already talked about this issue, I'm not going to force the players to give it back.
I'll read from the SRD, send the links to them, and ask for a multi-campaign decision by the next session.
Since two of us run campaigns, and a third guy runs a limited, part-time campaign, they know that they have to live with whatever the group decides too, since we share house rules across all our campaigns.
This limits our house rules to almost none, and the ones we do have aren't too heavy.
This is one of our house rules.
- Half Orcs get a +2 racial bonus to intimidate checks. This offsets the CHA penalty a bit on a skill where Half Orcs should actually be reasonably solid. (I know, it's based on how you carry yourself, but, we still thought this was fair). | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 12/20/2006 7:54 AM |
| Posted By YRM_DM on 12/19/2006 4:05 PM
(Though, I stand by the fact that I work my --- off to learn and implement proper rules, and no errors come out of DM laziness.)
I'm glad you clarified that, i was really under the impression that you were improvising the rules, from your different posts.
Sky
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The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
901 Posts
| | 12/20/2006 10:20 AM |
| Posted By YRM_DM on 12/19/2006 4:05 PM
(Though, I stand by the fact that I work my --- off to learn and implement proper rules, and no errors come out of DM laziness.)
Posted By Skyscraper on 12/20/2006 7:54 AM I'm glad you clarified that, i was really under the impression that you were improvising the rules, from your different posts. Sky
I figured as much...
Give yourself an Action Point for sarcasm. | |
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I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4592 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 12/20/2006 5:31 PM |
| Special Edition DMG (including errata) states:
"Creatures with Hit Dice of 1 or less have normal, class-based Hit Dice and features. They get a feat for their first class level and multiple the skill points for their first class level by four (even if they have a level adjustment). Those with 2 or more Hit Dice have statistics based on these Hit Dice plus Hit Dice for class levels (if any)."
Thus, feats/skill points are based on Racial Hit Dice + Class Hit Dice.
Using the Hound Archon (6 Hit Dice, Level Adjustment +5=ECL 11) as an example:
Per the DMG (supported by the Monster Manual entry for number of feats for Hound Archon characters) the Hound Archon would have 3 feats (1,3,6th character levels).
Alternate method: Hound Archon would have 4 feats (1,3,6,9th level).
Difference of one feat.
At ECL 12 (Level 1 Hound Archon Ranger) using the first method the Hound Archon would have 3 feats (1,3,6).
Using the second method the Hound Archon would have 5 feats (1,3,6,9,12).
At ECL 15 using the first method the Hound Archon would have 4 feats (1,3,6,9).
Using the second method, the Hound Archon would have 6 feats (1,3,6,9,12).
At ECL 18 using the first method the Hound Archon would have 4 feats (1,3,6,9,12).
Using the second method the Hound Archon would have 7 feats (1,3,6,9,12,15,1 .
So, the second method offers a scaling advantage with the difference in feats increasing with character level.
One of my biggest concerns about playing monsters with high level adjustments as characters is that most often the benefits (big stat boosts, resistances, offensive capability) don't always sufficiently offset the penalty to Hit Points, so I might be inclined to rule in favor of the second method, however, it does seem that the rules [as worded] would favor the first method.
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