Posted By thekidxii on 12/21/2006 7:41 AM
Wow! Great thread and quite timely for me. I'll be going over this again before my first game next week.
Cheers,
kid

Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20.

When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.

If You’re Grappling

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

Activate a Magic Item: You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require a spell completion trigger. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item.

Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

Cast a Spell: You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.

Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check.

Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual –4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.

Draw a Light Weapon: You can draw a light weapon as a move action with a successful grapple check.

Escape from Grapple: You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s).

Move: You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.

Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple.

Retrieve a Spell Component: You can produce a spell component from your pouch while grappling by using a full-round action. Doing so does not require a successful grapple check.

Pin Your Opponent: You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below).

Break Another’s Pin: If you are grappling an opponent who has another character pinned, you can make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you break the hold that the opponent has over the other character. The character is still grappling, but is no longer pinned.

Use Opponent’s Weapon: If your opponent is holding a light weapon, you can use it to attack him. Make an opposed grapple check (in place of an attack). If you win, make an attack roll with the weapon with a –4 penalty (doing this doesn’t require another action). You don’t gain possession of the weapon by performing this action.

...one attack per claw or tentacle, ...

When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.

Exactly how often can a monk attack with a single
manufactured weapon when using the flurry of blows
ability? For example, if I have a +1 alchemical silver dagger,
and I’m allowed three attacks in a flurry, how many of
those attacks can be dagger attacks? What if I have two
daggers? How about with natural weaponry, such as a claw
or bite? For example, if I have a vampire monk, can I
flurry with a slam attack and drain energy multiple times
from one living foe? If natural weaponry doesn’t work with
a flurry, why not?
You can’t use a dagger with a flurry of blows at all. When
you use the flurry ability, you must attack with either unarmed
strikes or with special monk weapons. Only six of the latter are
included in the Player’s Handbook (kama, nunchaku,
quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). A natural weapon
(any natural weapon) is neither an unarmed strike nor a special
monk weapon, so you can’t use it along with a flurry.
If you have one (or two) special monk weapons, you can
freely substitute attacks with those weapons with unarmed
attacks in the flurry (see the flurry of blows description on page
46 of the Player’s Handbook). If you’re allowed three attacks
in a flurry, and you have a +1 alchemical silver sai (or other
special monk weapon), you could use the sai up to three times
in the flurry. The examples given in the flurry of blows entry
don’t make that completely clear because they don’t cover all
the combinations of weapon attacks and unarmed strikes that
are possible.

If you have two special monk weapons to use, you can use
either or both of them in the flurry. For example, if you’re
entitled to three attacks using flurry of blows, and you’re armed
with a +1 alchemical silver sai and a cold iron sai, you can
make three attacks with one sai and no attacks with the other,
two attacks with one sai and one attack with the other, one
attack with each sai and one unarmed attack, or any other
combination of three attacks. Note that having a sai in each
hand won’t prevent a monk from making unarmed attacks. A
monk with her hands full can still make her full complement of
unarmed strikes (see the unarmed strike entry on page 41 of the
Player’s Handbook).
It might seem a tad strange that you cannot use a natural
weapon, such as a slam or a claw when you can use a monk
weapon such as a sai or a kama. However, natural weaponry
isn’t as handy as manufactured weaponry. You never get extra
attacks from a high base attack bonus with natural weaponry,
and the monk’s flurry ability is another way to get extra attacks
from your base attack bonus. Please note that a vampire monk
using its unarmed strike ability is not using its slam attack and
cannot drain energy.

The description of the flurry of blows ability says
there’s no such thing as a monk attacking with an off-hand
weapon during a flurry of blows. What does that mean,
exactly? Can the monk make off-hand attacks in addition to
flurry attacks?
Actually, the text to which you refer appears in the entry
for unarmed strikes. When a monk uses her unarmed strike
ability, she does not suffer any penalty for an off-hand attack,
even when she has her hands full and attacks with her knees
and elbows, using the flurry of blows ability to make extra
attacks, or both.
The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t
use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact
wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and
no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists.
When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk
suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting
(see Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook) and the monk adds
only half her Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand
unarmed strike hits.
To add an off-hand attack to a flurry of blows, stack
whatever two-weapon penalty the monk has with the penalty (if
any) from the flurry. Attacks from the flurry have the monk’s
full damage bonus from Strength, but the off-hand attack gains
only half Strength bonus to damage. If the off-hand attack is a
weapon, that weapon isn’t available for use in the flurry (if it
can be used in a flurry at all, see the previous question). For
example, a 4th-level monk with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat
and a Strength score of 14 decides to use a flurry of blows and
decides to throw in an off-hand attack as well. The monk has a
base attack bonus of +3 and a +2 Strength bonus. With a flurry,
the character can make two attacks, each at +3 (base +3, –2
flurry, +2 Strength). An unarmed strike is a light weapon, so
the monk suffers an additional –2 penalty for both the flurry
and the off-hand attack, and the monk makes three attacks,
each at an attack bonus of +1. The two attacks from the flurry
are primary attacks and add the monk’s full Strength bonus to
damage of +2. The single off-hand attack adds half the monk’s
Strength bonus to damage (+1).
If the monk in our example has two sais to use with the
flurry, plus the off-hand attack, she can use both in the flurry
(in which case she must make the off-hand attack with an
unarmed strike) or one sai for the off-hand attack and one with
the flurry. The sai used in the off-hand attack is not available
for the flurry and vice versa.

Can a monk fight with two weapons? Can she combine
a two-weapon attack with a flurry of blows? What are her
penalties on attack rolls?
A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other
character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her
attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand
weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with
a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but
remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special
monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for twoweapon
fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows.
For example, at 6th level, the monk Ember can normally
make one attack per round at a +4 bonus. When using flurry of
blows, she can make two attacks (using unarmed strikes or any
special monk weapons she holds), each at a +3 bonus. If she
wants to make an extra attack with her off hand, she has to
accept a –4 penalty on her primary hand attacks and a –8
penalty on her off-hand attacks (assuming she wields a light
weapon in her off hand).
If Ember has Two-Weapon Fighting, she has to accept only
a –2 penalty on all attacks to make an extra attack with her off
hand. Thus, when wielding a light weapon in her off hand
during a flurry of blows, she can make a total of three attacks,
each at a total bonus of +1. At least one of these attacks has to
be with her off-hand weapon.
A 20th-level monk with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can
make eight attacks per round during a flurry of blows.
Assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand, her three
off-hand weapon attacks are at +13/+8/+3, and she has five
attacks (at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3) with unarmed strikes or any
weapons she carries in her primary hand. If the same monk also
has Rapid Shot and throws at least one shuriken as part of her
flurry of blows (since Rapid Shot can be used only with ranged
attacks), she can throw one additional shuriken with her
primary hand, but all of her attacks (even melee attacks) suffer
a –2 penalty. Thus, her full attack array looks like this:
+11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 primary hand (two must be with
shuriken) and +11/+6/+1 off hand.

A 20th-level monk with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can
make eight attacks per round during a flurry of blows.
Assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand, her three
off-hand weapon attacks are at +13/+8/+3, and she has five
attacks (at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3)

Improved Grab
If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike.

Posted By YRM_DM on 12/29/2006 8:11 AM

Wow. I missed the boat on this one. My permanently enlarged L17 Half Orc monk with boots of speed and a monk's belt, buffed, only gets 6 attacks for 4d8+13 damage each.

Next time I'm PWNing something the DM whipped up, I'll be sure and point out how it could be worse if I'd been power gaming.

Posted By YRM_DM on 12/29/2006 8:11 AM

He's not getting +15/+10 with his right hand, or fighting under any kind of two-weapon fighting penalty or limitation... it's just a big punch with both hands, no penalty, no extra attacks. But he has two hands. His slam attacks do the same damage as unarmed strikes for a creature his size, so, it works out pretty cleanly for a grapple situation. He could grapple at 20/15, or attack at 11/11 (-4 penalty) with his slams. He'd do the same damage either way, so it makes sense to grapple.

Posted By YRM_DM on 12/29/2006 8:11 AM
Would it have to establish a 2nd grapple with the 2nd claw, when the first grapple is already established?

Posted By YRM_DM on 12/29/2006 8:11 AM
Per the rules, you'd probably use one grapple attempt to do claw damage, and make the other claw attack at -4 to see if you could rend.

Hi,

My questions mainly pertain to the possibility for creatures with natural weapons (for example: a troll) to attack or otherwise accomplish actions during a grapple situation.

Let's say a troll and a PC are already grappling at the start of a round.

It says under the grapple SRD rules that:

"When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses."

The actions are then described, including the possibility to deal nonlethal damage your opponent (opposed grapple check) or attack your opponent with a -4 penalty.

I'd like to add emphasis to the following passage from above: "If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks..."

Now, the rules for natural weapons state "creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high BAB when using natural weapons."

So, now, the troll has three natural weapon attacks in a round in normal melee conditions. The troll also has a BAB of +4, so he does not "receive additional attacks from a high BAB when using his natural weapons".

Question #1: How many "actions" does the troll get while grappling? One or three? In other words, can the troll attempt to deal nonlethal damage to the PC once or three times during the course of his round, while grappling? Or, reworded in another way, can he use his natural weapon attacks to attempt to deal nonlethal damage, or are the number of actions available determined by his BAB only, notwithstanding the number of natural weapon attacks that he has?

Question #2: Rewinding, the troll and the PC are not grappling yet, at the beginning of the encounter. The troll wants to initiate a grapple. How many attempts at initiating a grapple can the troll have? In other words, how many touch attacks can he attempt to initiate the grapple? That would be three, right, one to replace each of his natural weapon attacks? Or are the natural weapons something else, does he get touch attacks only as per his BAB, namely a single touch attack to initiate the grapple?

Question #3: If the troll indeed gets three touch attack attempts to initiate the grapple, let's say he successfully initiates a grapple on his first touch attack, can he use his other attacks during the grapple itself as "actions" as described above, for example to deal nonlethal damage? If so, is he allowed to accomplish two "actions" during the round when he initiated the grapple, since it took only one of his attacks to initiate the grapple? Or a single one?

Question #4: If the troll gains two fighter levels and consequently his BAB raises from +4 to +6, how many "actions" does he then get during a round where he is already grappling with the PC? Two (due to his BAB), three (due to his natural attacks) or four (due to his natural attacks and his BAB that adds one attack to the lot - seems improbable in the latter case)?

Thanks for your clarifications,

Louis

Hey there. The rules for grappling and creatures with multiple natural attacks are incredibly unclear. Either the creature gets an grapple check for every +5 in it's base attack bonus, or it gets an grapple check for each natural weapon it has. Since the rules are unclear on this, it will be up to the Dungeon Master to determine how he/she wants to handle this until it is covered in an official errata or FAQ. This goes for grapple attempts made to start the grapple or grapple attempts made to do something within the grapple.

So basically it will be up to the DM to determine how many grapple attempts the troll in all your examples would get based on which ruling he/she goes with. Have fun and good gaming!