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MackeyJ
Underboss
1414 Posts
    
 | | 12/20/2006 8:57 PM |
| Okay, I don't get it... how does DR/- difer from DR/magic? | |
John
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 12/20/2006 9:04 PM |
| | It means it is unassailable. So, not matter what is thrown at the character, the DR will always be in effect. DR/magic means the DR is in effect unless someone uses magic weapons against them. Same with DR/silver, DR/holy, DR/bludgeoning, etc. With DR/-, no matter what weapon is used, there will always be something taken away. Because of this universal application, it is usally lower than something like DR/magic which can be more easily overcome. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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MackeyJ
Underboss
1414 Posts
| | 12/21/2006 10:57 AM |
| Well here's how it reads...
If a dash follows the slash (as with the damage reduction that is a classs feature of the barbarian), then the damage reduction is effective against any attack that does not ignore damage reduction.
At first when I read this I was under the impresson that weapons had to be magically enchanted to carry the other properties that would overcome DR. But with DR/silver and adamantine and cold iron and such they wouldn't need to be magical to overcome thier types of DR, so I got that straightened out. But the way it's worded in the DMG for DR/- is that it ignores damage from any weapon that would normally be able to overcome DR. A silver weapon even if not magical is capable of ignoring DR/silver an adamantine weapon is capable of ignoring it's type of DR, etc, etc..
So wouldn't that mean that any kind of weapon that has properties capable of ignoring DR is capable of bypassing DR/-?
Wouldn't this mean that DR/- is only effective against your regular run of the mill weapons, whether they be masterwork or not, so long as they don't have any qualities that work against a type of DR?
Edit: Okay now that doesn't make any sense either. Cause there is DR/slashing and Bludgeoning and peircing most likely and any given weapon does one of those three things.
I'm confused... Is it just me or is it not worded properly on p.292 of the DMG? | |
John
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 12/21/2006 12:48 PM |
| Posted By MackeyJ on 12/21/2006 10:57 AM
Well here's how it reads...
If a dash follows the slash (as with the damage reduction that is a classs feature of the barbarian), then the damage reduction is effective against any attack that does not ignore damage reduction.
Right. Now attacks that ignore damage reduction are touch attacks, spells, energy attacks, spell-like abilities, and the other forms described in that passage. So a fireball "attack" ignores the DR. Those are the attacks it means. No weapon or naural weapon attack can get through this type of DR, that is what the - means in this instance. There is no quality a weapon can have to overcome it. It is better explained because there is more space for it under the Barbarian class feature.Â
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Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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MackeyJ
Underboss
1414 Posts
| | 12/22/2006 9:36 AM |
| Okay, cool! Thanks for your help.
I'm gonna have to throw a creature or two of this nature at my PC's in their next session. They're all above 10th level now and seem to be making short work of most of the creatures in the appropriate CR braket.
It's true what they say... as PC's start to climb into the higher levels it for sure becomes more work for the DM to plan out encounters ahead of time. You can't just wing it anymore, finding that balance becomes a lot more work than simply looking at the CR rating of the creatures and tossing them into the mix.
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John
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 12/22/2006 3:56 PM |
| | Elementals are a good choice, also golems. The latter don't have that DR, but elementals do and their special abilities can be troublesome while not being super deadly. Add not being able to be crit, stunned, flanked, high natural AC and they can be interesting fights without crushing parties since at most they have 2 attacks a round. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
8502 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 12/24/2006 7:45 PM |
| Posted By MackeyJ on 12/22/2006 9:36 AM
It's true what they say... as PC's start to climb into the higher levels it for sure becomes more work for the DM to plan out encounters ahead of time. You can't just wing it anymore, finding that balance becomes a lot more work than simply looking at the CR rating of the creatures and tossing them into the mix.
This is especially true if your players are experienced, and have optimized characters. Don't be afraid to increase the odd hit die or throw greater numbers of opposition at them. Underhanded tactics can also be a headache for PC's. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 12/27/2006 6:03 AM |
| Also remember that the hps listed in the MM are average. My players fight a lot of above average beasties. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 12/27/2006 9:12 AM |
| | This is not a bad tactic, just don't go the other way. I've seen it go the other way where a difficult creature was thought to be "easier" to deal with because it only had a percentage of its hit points. Sometimes it works, but for instance a giant still can deal a lot of damage even with half it's hit ponts. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 12/27/2006 10:11 AM |
| | Agreed. I've given a beastie too many hps on more than one occasion. What I do now is make a judgment when they've done the average amount of hp, if it was a tough enough battle it dies, if not, it fights a bit longer. It'll go to it's max total sometimes. I think it ultimately comes down to knowing how to properly challenge your individual party. For all it's goodness when using the WBL guidelines, CR is still not the be all, end all of encounter engineering. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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MackeyJ
Underboss
1414 Posts
| | 12/27/2006 10:53 AM |
| Posted By Thenameless on 12/24/2006 7:45 PM
 Underhanded tactics can also be a headache for PC's.
Anybody have any good examples of underhanded tactics they've used against PC's? | |
John
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| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6562 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 12/27/2006 11:05 AM |
| Posted By nyjastul69 on 12/27/2006 10:11 AM
Agreed. I've given a beastie too many hps on more than one occasion. What I do now is make a judgment when they've done the average amount of hp, if it was a tough enough battle it dies, if not, it fights a bit longer. It'll go to it's max total sometimes. I think it ultimately comes down to knowing how to properly challenge your individual party. For all it's goodness when using the WBL guidelines, CR is still not the be all, end all of encounter engineering.
Especially when the characters advance in levels and have their assortment of magical items. It's particularly challenging to get the right level of challenge in fights that are preplanned. It's challenging in another sense to know how to properly adapt encounters when they get there, so that the right amount of baddies are there. It's ok to have cake walks for some fights, but when all the fights are cake walks, it gets a bit boring. I speak from experience as a player when the DM allowed one person in our group to have an overpowered character that stole the show in about every encounter. It was like, oh, wow, my dwarf fighter got to swing his sword once in that fight. Yay. And twice in the next fight. That was uber tough there.
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"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 12/27/2006 9:00 PM |
| The DM I'm playing with now is scaling fights at ECL+4 at a minimum for the hard fights, mainly beause we are 6 people and a good team takes down lesser fights quicker and easier. We still have problems when the CR gets too high, like ECL +6.
As for the question on underhanded tactics, well, the closest I did was I had some animals acting way too intelligently by setting up flanks and the like too much in the encounter. It wasn't intentional, but I was doing it anyways. I try just to use appropriate tactics or well coordinated attacks toup challenges. Usually though I cheat in favor of the PCs if I do it at all, and that is in situations where I think the set up (since I usually run LG mods) and CR are unfair or unbalanced. Then I'll just fudge rolls. If they were just dumb or made a mistake, they get the consequence of their actions. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 12/28/2006 8:31 AM |
| I don't use underhanded tactics myself. If the players stroll through a couple of encounters (which rarely occurs), i'll design the next ones to be more challenging.
I don't fudge rolls either anymore (i used to do it years ago), i live with the consequences of the dice. Worst thing that can happen is a PC dies. I've had only 2 PC deaths in two years of my (slow-paced) present campaign, so i guess they haven't run into that much bad luck. Quite a few close calls of course.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 12/28/2006 2:01 PM |
| Posted By Skyscraper on 12/28/2006 8:31 AM
Worst thing that can happen is a PC dies.
In a home game I couldn't agree more. The consequences while substantial, is still liveable. In LG, I'm a little more forgiving because money gains are limited and lower than in a normal campaign and the level hit can really be susbstantial if it means you can't play with your friends because your character is of too low a level. Since the consequences can even be effecively UCD even if it isn't for actual, I'm more forgiving since I have no control on what the PCs face.
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Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9970 Posts
United States
| | 12/30/2006 4:47 PM |
| And don't forget about the mix-n-match possibilities. If the party encounters a group of monsters, some of which have DR/silver, some DR/cold iron, some DR/bludgeoning, etc., it makes it harder for any individual to be good at taking down everything. If it requires characters to switch weapons during combat, that usually spares some enemy from being hit on some round, and increases the duration of the fight.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 12/30/2006 8:28 PM |
| That's very interesting. It also would make archer/throwing based characters shine, something that doesn't happen too often. The next time I make an adventure, I might have to steal that idea. Thanks  | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
9970 Posts
United States
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