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Subject: Improved Feint and SA

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nyjastul69
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01/09/2007 11:36 AM  
From the SRD for reference purposes.



Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.



FEINT

Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by your target. The target may add his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check. If your Bluff check result exceeds your target’s Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

When feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid you take a –4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a –8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.

Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Feinting as a Move Action: With the Improved Feint feat, you can attempt a feint as a move action instead of as a standard action.








What exactly is a nonhumanoid in this context?  Do they mean to imply bipedal, or do they mean strictly 'humanoid type'?  When feinting (w/improved feint) a Giant, do you apply the -4 penalty?  I interpreted the 'nonhumanoid' as poor flavor text, but a friend of mine thinks it's a reference to the game term.  What say you?



You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com

zenthrus
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01/09/2007 11:47 AM  
Feinting is an action that assumes a certain reaction to a given situation. Humanoids (i.e. the creature type) presumably react in a certain way, non-humanoids (i.e. outsiders, giants, magical beasts) are not likely to react in the same fashion. Since feinting is moving so that your opponent mis-reads the direction of actual attack, it would follow that creatures of different types would not always react predictably.

So, long story short...the feint rules are referring to creature type (humanoid vs. non-humanoid). In the example given when feinting against a creature with the Giant type you would indeed suffer a -4 penalty to the feint check.

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Skyscraper
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01/09/2007 12:01 PM  
My understanding is that they mean a creature with the "humanoid" subtype descriptor. So yes, you would apply the -4 penalty against a giant.

I think the idea is that it's easier to feint someone if his combat tactics are not alien to you. You can play mind games (such as feinting) only if you can convey a false intent to the other party. Understanding how a dragon, giant or otyugh might interpret a false intentn on your part, is not as easy as for another human being, for example.

I guess the text should read "When feinting in this way against a creature of a differentsubtype  than yours, ..."

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nyjastul69
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01/09/2007 12:07 PM  
I just find it odd that Merfolk, Troglodytes, Locathah, Lizardfolk, etc., react in a 'much more humanoid' way, than an Ogre or Hill Giant. For that matter, why are Sahuagin more monstrous than Merfolk?


You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com

nyjastul69
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Rhode Island

01/09/2007 12:10 PM  
I guess the text should read "When feinting in this way against a creature of a differentsubtype than yours, ..."


No, that wouldn't be ambiguos enough for WotC.


You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com

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01/09/2007 12:35 PM  
I think you're right that the rule doesn't nail down "reality" that well in all circumstances, but apart from the subtype descriptor, there is no way that i see to make that rule work simply, apart from deciding not to apply any race diffirential penalty at all.

Also, apart from giants, i guess the rule makes sense in general. Even for giants, it could be argued that feinting at knee height might well (20% chance ) go unnoticed. For lizardfolk and other lizard-or-fishy humanoid subtypes , i have no problem seeing how feint might work well against them if they're landbound.

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01/09/2007 12:36 PM  
Posted By nyjastul69 on 01/09/2007 12:07 PM
I just find it odd that Merfolk, Troglodytes, Locathah, Lizardfolk, etc., react in a 'much more humanoid' way, than an Ogre or Hill Giant. For that matter, why are Sahuagin more monstrous than Merfolk?
There are always ways to explain that to a player.

Perhaps a giant is less likely to flinch or react to a fake-attack than a Troglodyte who cares more about getting hit.

Perhaps humanoids all share a certain fighting style that isn't really the norm among much larger or odd shaped creatures.

Also note that the Invisible Blade Prestige Class from Complete Warrior can eventually Feint as a free action and take 10 on the bluff check while doing it!

Good stuff.



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01/09/2007 12:41 PM  
Too bad Invisible Blade has prerequiites that are not used at all in the class and are a relic of when it was a 10 level Pclass. Otherwise it would be much better.

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01/10/2007 4:15 AM  
Posted By gss_000 on 01/09/2007 12:41 PM
Too bad Invisible Blade has prerequiites that are not used at all in the class and are a relic of when it was a 10 level Pclass. Otherwise it would be much better.


And that is why I'm such a big fan of Rule 0.

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gss_000
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01/10/2007 9:36 AM  
Yup. But the problem is still there. Since we're dangerously (in a fun way) close to breaking it, I'll mention the Oberoni Fallacy:

"There is no inconsistency/loophole/mechanics issue with Rule X, because you can always Rule 0 the inconsistency/loophole/mechanics issue."

You can see an explanation of this at: http://bb.bbboy.net/niftymessageboard-viewthread?forum=6&thread=12

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