| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
| | Author | Messages | |
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
    
Montreal
 | | 02/23/2007 11:56 AM |
| After quite a while into the business of DMing, one rule that still proves challenging for me is when can creatures take 10 on skill checks. I get the "climb the sloped hill" part, but i have trouble seeing how far it goes.
Can you take 10 in open locks? Other skills?
If you feel like sharing, i'd like to hear as many skill checks as you're willing to write out where you allow creatures (PCs or monsters) to take 10, including the more obvious ones and the more obscure ones.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
|
Oryan77
Sergeant
955 Posts
| | 02/23/2007 2:29 PM |
| It's a pretty simple rule really. You can take 10 or 20 as long as a failure wouldn't harm you at all.
We seem to make it harder than it's meant to be by coming up with all these "but what if's", or because we don't use common sense.
When thinking about what skills you can take 10 or 20 on, just think about if it makes sense.
If you failed on the first attempt at opening a lock, maybe it's only because you didn't roll high enough. If you rolled a 10 or 20, you might have been able to open the lock. Rolling low doesn't mean you can never open that lock. It could mean that you screwed up on that 1st attempt...possibly under pressure. If you were relaxed (take 10) or had more time to fiddle with it (take 20), you might open it. It's when you take 20 and still don't open the lock that means it's beyond your skill.
Rolling per round is a hurried attempt at the task....taking 10 is a half-assed attempt at the task because you think it's easy....taking 20 is a longer attempt, but more precise attempt at the task.
So yes, you can take 10 or 20 with open locks as long as you can concentrate & not be in danger (opening a lock is not dangerous).
Some people will say, "But what if there's a trap on the locked chest/door?" Unlocking a lock isn't what sets off the trap, it's opening the chest or door that sets off the trap. So yes, even if it's trapped, you can take 10 or 20 on the open locks.
Then if you're really stuborn, you'll say, "But what if the trap goes off IF someone messes with the lock?" If that's the case, then even if you didn't take 10 or 20, you're going to set off the trap. So when he says "I take 10 or 20", then you say, "You set off the trap as soon as you try to unlock it...you lost your chance at the unlock attempt. You'll have to try again." If they say they take 10 or 20 again, and the trap resets itself, you repeat the same process. If the trap doesn't reset, let them take 10 or 20 on the lock.
If there's danger around you (fighting, harmful gas, ect), then you can't take 10 or 20.
| |
Miniatures for sale *more added 07/17/08*: Click here
I will buy your unwanted D&D WotC minis collection (DDM only). Email me your asking price! | |
|
Oryan77
Sergeant
955 Posts
| | 02/23/2007 2:56 PM |
| A lot of people wonder if you can take 10 or 20 on hiding, moving silently, or disguising themselves.
The "if in danger" rules still apply.
These seem to be DM calls on whether you can try them again or not. I solve this problem really easy by rolling their skill checks myself secretely. That way they can't say, "Wait, I know I'm not sneaking quiet enough, I'll try again".
I personally don't allow it because I think it's stupid when you think about what's going on.
If you're sneaking around, you aren't going to stop walking, and try walking again...except trying to walk quieter than you were before. You're going to be giving your best effort every time.
It's stupid to think you can walk around for 20 minutes until you know you're finally walking as quietly as you possibly can....and then decide it's time to move throughout the castle. It's also stupid to think, "I'll just walk quietly and take 10 so I'm averagely moving silent".
It's the same with hiding. How do you know you're as perfectly hidden as you possibly can be? Yer gonna spend 20 freakin minutes shuffling yourself around in the same 5 foot area until you think to yourself, "Yeah, there we go...no one will see me now"? That's lame. If you take 10, how do you even know you've hidden yourself "pretty decent"? I'm in a dark corner of my house, and i'm going to sit there in a way that I will know is an "average" hidding position? You either think you're hidden or not. If you are unsure, you try again until you "think" you're hidden. You basically just hope no one will see you in your current position.
This is why my rolls are secret. They shouldn't know how well they are hidden. They might think they are well hidden, or they might think they aren't well hidden...but they can never know until someone tries to find them.
I would probably allow someone to take 10 or 20 on disguise if they had a mirror (or were disguising someone else). There's no danger in it...and a single die roll just means it's a hurried attempt. So if they had time to work on the disguise, they can make it perfect. You can even stick penalties on the PC's disguise attempt if they are trying to impersonate a specific person. The NPC's also still get the same bonuses to spot if they know the person you're impersonating.
| |
Miniatures for sale *more added 07/17/08*: Click here
I will buy your unwanted D&D WotC minis collection (DDM only). Email me your asking price! | |
|
Monsoon28
Underboss
2290 Posts
Toronto
| | 02/23/2007 3:22 PM |
| Moving Silently or Hiding are both skills that involve an opposed check, therefore neither can involve a 'take 10' or 20. The same would also hold true to Spot or Listen.
Esentially you normally can't take 10 or 20 when you're under threat, when failure would result in a negative result or when there is an opposed roll. Also remember that taking 20 requires a minimum time limit, so something could come along and ruin the attempt.
There are exceptions such as special abilities/feats, or common sense situations like if you were climbing using a rope (especially a knotted rope), I'd allow a 10 or 20 in this situation.
| |
"I was sittin' here eatin' my muffin, drinkin' my coffee, replayin' the incident in my head, when I had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity." - Jules Winnfield
Sales/Trades Bad (1): Ironfist Boulderbender
Trades/Sales completed (8.): Danthl, Dafrca, Garyaxe, qillan_dvra, realmaster, Vandal_Savage, cavedweller, unearthed arcana.
Champion of Gem Dragons, VINDICATED Squire of Duergar Commander, Knight of the Astral Stalker.
| |
|
Oryan77
Sergeant
955 Posts
| | 02/23/2007 3:51 PM |
| Posted By Monsoon28 on 02/23/2007 3:22 PM
Moving Silently or Hiding are both skills that involve an opposed check, therefore neither can involve a 'take 10' or 20. The same would also hold true to Spot or Listen.
Esentially you normally can't take 10 or 20 when you're under threat, when failure would result in a negative result or when there is an opposed roll. Also remember that taking 20 requires a minimum time limit, so something could come along and ruin the attempt.
There are exceptions such as special abilities/feats, or common sense situations like if you were climbing using a rope (especially a knotted rope), I'd allow a 10 or 20 in this situation.
I like that statement of "can't take 10 or 20 if it requires an opposed check". It works good for ruling that you can't take 10 or 20 on hide/move silently. The only thing though, the PHB specifically says that you can retry Spot & Listen checks. It's under the "Retry" paragraph in the skill description.
I forgot to mention the failure results in a negative result requirement, thanks. That would be a common sense judgement call. Like, you can't take 20 if a failure on something like a climb check means you fall off the rope...or balance if failure means you fall off a tightrope.
| |
Miniatures for sale *more added 07/17/08*: Click here
I will buy your unwanted D&D WotC minis collection (DDM only). Email me your asking price! | |
|
nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 02/24/2007 7:02 AM |
| | It's ok to take 10 on a check that has a potentially negative result, such as a Climb check. Taking 10 takes no longer than that action would 'normaly' take, i.e. taking 10 and rolling both take the same time. Taking 20 assumes you're going to be able to perform the action many times, which is why it's limited to things which don't have a penalty for failure. As mentioned earlier, neither can be done when rushed or threatened. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
|
Keoki
Sneak
100 Posts
Seattle
| | 02/24/2007 12:17 PM |
| Posted By Monsoon28 on 02/23/2007 3:22 PM
Moving Silently or Hiding are both skills that involve an opposed check, therefore neither can involve a 'take 10' or 20. The same would also hold true to Spot or Listen.
When in doubt, go to the source. From the SRD:
Taking 10: When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful.
Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help.
Taking 20: When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take.
Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task.
So taking 10 is perfectly acceptable for opposed checks, unless the character is threatened or distracted, but taking 20 is not, since there is, by definition, a penalty for failure in that the opposing party wins the contest. | | | |
|
nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 02/24/2007 12:30 PM |
| Here's SKR's take on what you can take 20 on.
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/take20.html | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 02/26/2007 9:02 AM |
| Thanks for the replies guys. It clarifies things a bit, but i'd like to hear yet more examples on taking 10 if you feel like it. I like the discussion on hide vs spot BTW.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
|
nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 02/26/2007 9:31 AM |
| Posted By Skyscraper on 02/26/2007 9:02 AM
Thanks for the replies guys. It clarifies things a bit, but i'd like to hear yet more examples on taking 10 if you feel like it. I like the discussion on hide vs spot BTW.
Sky
Taking 20 has always been more problematic for me. What specifically about taking 10 are you having trouble with? It's no more complex than, you can take 10 on any skill check, unless you threatened or rushed. Some of this is of course Dm discretion. There are rare instances where you can't take 10, but they're clearly defined in the text. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
|
gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 02/26/2007 11:21 AM |
| For me, the difference comes down to this. Taking 10 means you roll a 10. As other have said, as long as you are not rushed (or have a class ability that allows you to do it as a standard) there is no problem. Even if failure has consequences, like balance and climb checks, you can make the roll. It still might fail, but you can guarantee the 10 on the roll.
I see taking 20 as having rolled a 1, then a 2, then a 3....until finally you have a 20. From there it follows what others have said. If there is a bad consequence you can't do it.
I find these things speed game play up tremendously, espeialy durin dungeon crawls where all the dice rolls for searching can add up over a session. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 02/26/2007 1:57 PM |
| Okay, i'm getting there. I always thought that taking 10 was impossible if there was a consequence to failure, but that is not the case. Taking 10 on a balance check? This is one i would not have thought possible, because of the consequence of failure. But then, that's a rule for taking 20 (the consequence one), not taking 10 is it? You can take 10 even if there is a consequence, but as long as you are not rushed or threatened.
So, can you take 10 on:
- appraise or knowledge skills? You're not being rushed or threatened to try to appraise an object or remember some information, but it appears to make little sense to me to take 10 on a knowledge check: either you know the info or you don't.
- diplomacy, bluff or intimidate?
I read up here that spot/listen and hide checks/move silently you can't take 10 on because of the opposed checks. Out of curiosity, where is the reference to that in the rules?
Taking 20 i have no problems with BTW.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
|
gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 02/26/2007 3:16 PM |
| I think you have to look at the individual skill and see what it represents. If a skill can be improved by taking your time, you can take 10. For instance, balance or move silently. If there was a patch an ice, I can move slowly over the ice to keep my balance, hence taking 10 while if I move normally I'm rolling the dice, figuratively and literally. I also can take care moving silently, or hiding myself. Again, taking 10.
With skills like Spot, listen, knowledges, diplomacy, being careful doesn't help because the are either reactive to an instant occurance (spot/listen), it represents something that time is meaningless (knowledges), or represents a long period of time and taking longer doesn't make it more or less successful (bluff, diplomacy).
These things should be under the appropriate skills, but many times I think about what it represents and whether taking care (which is essentially what taking 10 is) would change anything. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 02/26/2007 5:29 PM |
| How is listening more of an instant occurance than moving silently? I can stop and take care to listen with attention, interrupting my breathing and so on.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
|
gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 02/27/2007 7:46 AM |
| | But I can do that instantaneously as well. A majority of the time listen is reactive, like spot. If there is noise going on you have only one chance to hear it whether or not you are ready. I could see instances like listening at a door to allow someone to take 10, if a DM allowed. But if someone is just sneaking on the party, that definitely is not an instance when you can do that. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 02/27/2007 8:40 AM |
| Okay, but by a similar lgoic, the person sneaking on the party cannot take his time, he is rushed to accomplish his task within for example a single round of movement or else there are more listen checks by the party in question. Plus, i believe that you are threatened when sneaking up on a party. Ok, no one is presently swinging his sword at you, but you have a bunch of hostile characters standing there and if one of them hears you, you might be dead. You need to move as fast as you can within the limits of the allowed speed for silently speed.
Either way you look at it, move silently and listen appear non applicable for taking 10 IMO.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
|
gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 02/27/2007 12:27 PM |
| I disagree. Well, somewhat. If I'm restricted to movement in rounds, then you are right, you can't take 10 on move silently. However, outside of the round structure, what is stopping you from moving carefully to take advantage of the rule? More specifically, in the description of the ability, there are penalties for moving at different speeds.
But let's look at your example. If the party is aware of what of someone sneaking up on them, and you are in rounds, then again, taking 10 here would be unreasonable and would not be appropriate. Here everyone can't take their time because they are pressured by the risk of capture, etc. However, if the party is just on watch but not aware of a specific threat, there is no pressure situation yet. Yes, there is pressure because you are sneaking into an armed camp, but not the same kind that would disallow taking 10. In order for our sneak to be threatened, the party would have to identify and recognize the threat, ie by hearing or spotting it, much the same way you can't just assume invisible assassins are around you every round and be immune to their death attacks.
If I'm outside the round structure, you can take 10 (except for the kinds of skills I mentioned before). | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 02/27/2007 12:51 PM |
| Hmm, okay, it makes sense. Darn rule anyway 
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
|
| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
| |
ActiveForums 3.7 | You must be signed in to participate in the
games. |