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kestrel.ca
Underboss
1671 Posts
    
 | | 03/23/2007 6:04 PM |
| Running a mini campaign, a potential player has asked if he could play a Gallant (2e bard kit, I think). Since we're playing 3.5, and I've never played 2e, I'm not sure how well I'm converting/creating this class. Essentially, as far as I understand, the gallant is a paladin/bard in that he has some skill at arms, very good diplomacy, a strict code to follow, and some bardic abilities.
I'm looking for feedback on the following class. Is it too overpowered? Underpowered? For those familiar with the 2e Gallant, does it approximate the abilities?
The Gallant (v.0.4):
[additions/changes in italics]
Alignment: NG, or CG Any
Hit die: d8 d10
Skills: Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Knowledge (nobility & royalty), Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive
Skill Points: 4+Int modifier Base Attack Bonus: 2/3 levels (Moderate, as Cleric)
Saves: Fortitude & Will saves (Good); Reflex saves (Poor)
Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons, armour, and shields (except tower)
Abilities by level
1. Lover's luck 1/day; Gallant charm +1; Gallant's code; Designate Love interest 1/week (Reckless combat 1/day)
2. Gallant grace
3. Weapon focus (lance)
4. Bardic music (fascinate, inspire courage +1, charm person)
5. Lover's luck 2/day; Leadership feat; Designate Love Interest (2/week, reckless combat 2/day)
6. Gallant charm +2
7.
8. EnduranceDiehard
9. Bardic music (suggestion); Designate love interest (3/week)
10. Lover's luck 3/day; Inspire courage +2; Designate love interest (reckless combat 3/day)
11. Diehard; Gallant charm +3
12. Bardic music (inspire greatness, inspire courage +2); Designate love interest (4/week)
13.
14. Bonus feat
15. Lover's luck 4/day; Bardic music (song of freedom); Designate love interest (5/week; reckless combat 4/day)
16. Gallant charm +4
17. Bonus feat; Inspire courage +3
18. Bardic music (Inspire heroics); Designate love interest (6/week)
19.
20. Bonus feat; lover's luck 5/day; Designate love interest (reckless combat 5/day) Lover's luck: Allows the gallant to use a swift action to reroll most d20 die roll (skill check, attack roll, or saving throw). The second roll must be taken, even if it is worse than the original roll. This reroll can be used more often each day at higher levels (twice at 5th, 3 times at 10th, 4 times at 15th, and 5 times at 20th). This ability can be activated after the result of the original roll has been determined. Gallant charm: The Gallant knows how to impress. This results in an effective +1 bonus to all Diplomacy checks. This improves by +1 every 5 levels (level 6, 11, 16)
Gallant's code: Similar to the paladin's code, the gallant must adhere to his code or lose access to his gallant abilities.
Designate Love interest: Once per week, a gallant may designate a particular person as his current love interest. When acting to defend, impress, or in the interest of the designated love interest, the gallant gains Fearlessness, and Reckless Combat (see below) the ability to smite 1/day (as a paladin's smite ability). As the gallant gains levels, he can designate more than one designated love interest per week (each designated love interest remains a designated love interest for 1 week from time of designation, allowing a higher level gallant to have more than one active love interest at a time). In addition, the smite abilities uses per day also increase as the gallant gains levels.
Gallant grace: Identical to the paladin's ability Divine grace, the Gallant adds his Charisma modifier (at least +1) to all saving throws. Bardic music: The Gallant can use his bardic talents a number of times per day equal to his level-3. For level dependent effects, the gallant's bard level is equivalent to his level -3.
Charm person: The gallant, through recitation of poetry or other performance, attempts to charm a suitable target. Threatening situations (nearby combat, drawing weapons, etc) increase the DC by 5. Other than the above, the ability functions as the spell Charm Person.
Reckless combat: the gallant gains +4 to Strength and Constitution, and a -2 penalty to AC. This lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3+Constitution modifier. | |
Completed Trades/Transactions: 91 || Pending Trades: 0 || Bad Trades: 3 (Chaotic Good x2, MackeyV) | |
|
Humble Minion
Sneak
118 Posts
| | 03/25/2007 1:16 AM |
| Hmmm. I like the idea (I loved the Gallant, though I never played one) but the implementation could do with a little work I think.
First, from what I remember there was nothing paladinish enough about the Gallant to require alignment restrictions. The Gallant was an attempt to cover the romantic-chivalrous-knight-troubador archetype - courtly love, jousting for lady's favours, and all that stuff. There was no real higher purpose to them - and besides, an evil Gallant (a seducer, manipulator, cad, etc) could be a really fun bad guy, and I wouldn't want to cut down my options there. Still, all that depends on how you see the class's role in your campaign. You may disagree.
As for the rest - I think it needs a little bit of tweaking, as the current version is a bit too combat-optimised for my taste, and possibly a little overpowered. The crux of the original kit was that the Gallant was a romantic at heart who had learned just enough combat skills to do all the jousting, duelling, etc required of a noble, but for whom combat wasn't really a purpose in itself. But with a 1/level BAB, two good saves plus Grace, d10 hit dice (even rangers and monks only have d8, and they're combat classes!), full weapon/armour proficiency, bonus weapon focus, and free re-rolls, the class is pushing a paladin for combat power even before the special abilities are factored in.
What I'd do is drop the hit dice down to d8 or even d6, switch the second good save to Reflex (though that's a matter of taste), and perhaps modify the standard Bardic music abilities to more socially-oriented variants (perhaps charm, or attitude modification). Then I'd look at letting a Gallant have some sort of romance-based ability. Perhaps a good-aligned Gallant can designate a 'love interest', and when acting to protect, serve, impress, or otherwise benefit this person, the Gallant gains benefits like fearlessness, the equivalent of Heroism spells, the ability to Smite people who've hurt the love interest, etc, etc (and a penalty to save against mind-affecting spells cast by the love interest - it's a two-edged sword, after all!). Evil Gallants would instead gain the ability to Charm or Suggest their seducees (possibly multiple, in the case of evil Gallants!) into acting to protect the Gallant or further his interests.
I just think something like that would have a bit more more flavour than the warrior-with-bardic-music way of doing things. | |
My Have/Want list: http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Humble%20Minion
Trade reference thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12743 | |
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kestrel.ca
Underboss
1671 Posts
| | 03/25/2007 7:27 AM |
| Hmmm. Some good ideas, I thnk I'll use a couple of them. No alignment restrictions is a good point. I'll drop the hit die to d8.
I like the "designated love-interest" (DLI). 1/week, the Gallant can designate a love-interest? Or should it be 1/day. I doubt this would actually occur very often in normal gameplay, but it's a nice flavour mechanic. When defending DLI, I'm trying to decide if they should gain smite ability, or similar abilities to barbarian's rage/heroism. I'm thinking simply the smite ability would be good (and fearlessness). | |
Completed Trades/Transactions: 91 || Pending Trades: 0 || Bad Trades: 3 (Chaotic Good x2, MackeyV) | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6562 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 03/25/2007 9:25 AM |
| | I don't think that gaining the smite ability in a small situation (when defending love interest) is significant enough. I would think that they should gain an attack bonus and damage bonus on all attacks when defending love interest. This could be a small bonus that increases over time (levels). | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6562 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 03/25/2007 9:31 AM |
| | Would it be possible to designate someone within the party as the gallant's love interest? If so, the bonuses would not be very situational. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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kestrel.ca
Underboss
1671 Posts
| | 03/25/2007 10:00 AM |
| I've replaced smite with Reckless Combat (essentially barbarian's rage) which provides a constant +2 to hit and damage.
Yes it would be possbile to designate someone in the party as love interest, which is why I didn't want to make the associated ability too powerful as it then becomes open to abuse. However, limiting the reckless combat to a certain number of time/day probably mitigates that enough. | |
Completed Trades/Transactions: 91 || Pending Trades: 0 || Bad Trades: 3 (Chaotic Good x2, MackeyV) | |
|
gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 03/25/2007 8:26 PM |
| | I would reduce the BAB to that of a cleric, at least. This build is better than a straight fighter and even a Paladin. Better saves than a fighter, raging like a Barbarian, a great bonus to saves, a good number of feats (more than everyone except a fighter and a wizard), bardic abilities that work well on a fighter or any front line character, Diehard (combined with a cleric's delay death makes him almost unstopable), and all for only 1 less hit point per level. That is way too good as this choice is a no brainer. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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kestrel.ca
Underboss
1671 Posts
| | 03/25/2007 10:32 PM |
| Ok, I can work with that.
[And thanks for all the feedback. I really appreciate it!] | |
Completed Trades/Transactions: 91 || Pending Trades: 0 || Bad Trades: 3 (Chaotic Good x2, MackeyV) | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 03/26/2007 12:09 PM |
| I've never played 2E, since i jumped from 1E to 3.X. So i am unfamiliar with the 2E gallant.
However, i have the impression from the description given above that the gallant is more than anything else a knight, so a fighting class. I would maintain his high BAB and try to downgrade his other abilities if you believe them to be too strong. I'd then introduce duel and horseback fighting abilities, to have him be able to duel it out against anyone and (hopefully) beat them, if only to see his love blush in the morning light as he brings her a rose after his victory I would downgrade the bard-related abilties a bit, to keep them as flavor more than anything else. The thing is, right now the gallant is all talk and no show, he wouldn't be able to keep up against any fighter class in a 1 on 1 fight.
I like the Lover's Luck idea quite a bit, if only because this is the type of ability that appeals to me very much. The Gallant Charm ability is great for flavor purposes (it is not very strong in itself, which is fine). Diehard is great, i can't help but think about Lancelot in the 1980 (or thereabouts) remake of King Arthur's quest for the holy grail. I wonder if Endurance is necessary though... i don't feel it is associated to the class. No need to have the prerequisite for diehard if it's a class feat.
However, if you want to maintain the more bard-oriented approach, then your actual angle might be better.
If you agree that the class could be changed to a fighting class, i can provide some suggestions for feats and abilities. However, if you're comfortable with the present bardic-type class, then i won't go through the trouble of posting details about additional fighting abilities. Let me know,
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6562 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 03/27/2007 8:41 AM |
| | While it may not be spot on, has he considered the Knight class from PHB2? Or, does he really want a heavier bardic influence? | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|
kestrel.ca
Underboss
1671 Posts
| | 03/27/2007 9:16 AM |
| Sky -- like you, I wasn't familiar with the gallant either. The original was a bardic kit, so while I personally think it's a little weak, the player's really happy with it. He feels the main focus is on NPC interaction, and less on fighting (I personally wouldn't play this PC as I tend to focus on hit first, ask questions later!). He sent me a list of abilities that the original had and that's where most of the abilities came from. Diehard is used to emulate abilities, and I suppose you're right, I don't need endurance if I simply make diehard a class feat. Good point. And yes, he wants to keep the bardic focus.
Corim -- I certainly considered the knight class as a quick fix, but it really didn't seem to resonate with the player. There are some interesting overlaps, and I considered adding some of the knight's abilities in as bardic music abilities, but didn't want to add too much.
I've sent one of the versions to the player and he's really happy with it. I'll continue to tinker with it slightly. Thanks for all your help, and new comments are still appreciated. | |
Completed Trades/Transactions: 91 || Pending Trades: 0 || Bad Trades: 3 (Chaotic Good x2, MackeyV) | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 03/27/2007 12:20 PM |
| 10-4, a bardic character it shall be.
My two cents with this focus in mind: i'm unsure about the combat-oriented abilities if this class is not a fighter type. My point goes more specifically towards the "designate love interest" class ability. Although i see why this would add some flavor, it appears somewhat ackward to me for a few reasons. First, this class is not a fighter, but this ability pushes it to fight. Second, the most optimized way to use this ability is to designate one or more of your PC comrades as your love interests to benefit from your bonuses in most circumstances, which means (1) that he'll have them most of the time anyway; and (2) that he'll actually have to continuously role-play courting other PCs, which is kind of weird from my standpoint as i really don't feel like having another hairy buddy of mine telling me how much he loves me at every D&D game . This would be a major throw-off for me, not only when choosing my PC class, but if any other player chooses it as i know where it should lead... Finally, the rage-like ability is kinda of weird coming from a person who "loves" multiple persons per week, and who i visualize as the calm, put-a-rose-on-the-bed kinda PC. Does he actually loose it when his "love interest" is attacked? Does he drool like a barbarian, do his muscles bulge all of a sudden, etc...? I don't see this person as very lovable after you've seen him in a blood-lust, combat frenzy.
I feel that the duelist PrC would be a better model to spin with the bard to arrive at the gallant, if i understand your angle on this class correctly. Indeed, the duelist is good in some particular combat circumstances, although it is more of a fighter class than the gallant due to his 1 BAB/level advancement so on second thought that might not be it either.
Hmm. This is tough
How about a few increases to CHA over levels?
I'll have to think about this some more.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 03/27/2007 12:29 PM |
| Perhaps the sweet talker approach would be good? Instead of having to use his bardic music to charm, fascinate or even send suggestions to others, the gallant could do that while talking with others? Although... what is the gallant's code? If it is a LG paladin-like code, charming others is not aligned with that kind of code of conduct at all, neither while talking nor while playing music. A paladin would not resort to such indirect mind-influencing-effects to convince others to do what he feels is right. How do you see the gallant in that respect, how do you see his code of conduct, and how do you reconcile this with charming and other related abilities?
Of note: bards are silver tongues, they're the "all talk and no show" by excellence. They have roguish roots (see 1E where, to become a bard, you needed to have thief levels), and are not aligned to the code of conduct of the paladin. Heck, they even need to be chaotic in alignment.
I think you should provide some insight as to how you see the gallant's code. That appears essential for the rest at this point.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 03/27/2007 1:26 PM |
| The original Gallant Code.
Gallants live by a code of ethics that has slowly evolved over the years. If the gallant is true to his code, he gains an inner confidence and peace, that results a +2 bonus that can be applied to either his attack roll, damage roll, armor class, or saving throw each round. During the round, the Gallant player may decide to use the +2 bonus any time before rolling the dice that will be adjusted. Once the bonus is used in a round, it is not available again until the next round. The bonus cannot be split into two +1 modifiers.
If a Gallant breaks this code he loses the +2 bonus until the infraction is remedied. Further he must seek out a priest who will listen to his transgressions and cast atonement upon him (such priests will often require some form of penance).
The Gallant will ...
- defend lovers, the innocent, and those of the opposite sex, and aid them in times of need (unless they are enemies or hostile).
- never marry nor solemnly vow to love only one person.
- never retreat from battle until allies of the opposite sex have done so first (unless they are fellow Gallants).
- never overstay his welcome at any place.
- spend at least half of his money on the innocent or romance.
- own only what he can carry with him.
I don't know how much this helps you guys, but there it is. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 03/27/2007 2:45 PM |
| It helps me get a better feel about the class for sure.
It appears to me that the gallant is a fighter and a romantic, form the code. Considering that he so much oriented towards combat, i would consider raising his BAB progression to 1/level. Otherwise, he'll die all the time due to being prevented from leaving combat before those of the opposite sex.
Here are some suggestions based on the code provided and using what you have now:
1) raise BAB progression to +1/level
2) remove the "designate love interest" ability
3) the gallant grace could also be a deflection bonus to AC that slowly rises over the levels, in addition to the bonus to saves.
4) provide a "Gallant Shield" ability, by which the gallant can provide a bonus to another's AC at the expense of his own (limit = gallant grace bonus (+ DEX and/or shield bonus??)). Use of this ablity should be restricted to "lovers, the innocent and those of the opposite sex"
5) remove the leadership feat. The gallant appears to me like a loner, not a leader.
6) add a "Last Man Standing" ability (or similar), which would be beneficial for him when he remains alone in battle to cover the others' retreat (specs and restrictions to be found)
7) tone down the bardic music abilities
Why did you include bonus feats at high levels?
I wonder if 4+INT bonus on skills is not overkill considering he has so few class skills. Have you verified this? Can someone with, say, 13 or 15 INT, invest in his class skills without maxing them all out?
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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