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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6562 Posts
    
West Valley City, Utah
 | | 05/30/2007 6:05 PM |
| I was looking at all the weapon properties in the Magic Item Compendium, and I saw Sizing. It seemed fairly harmless at first...
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Sizing
Price: +5000 gp (flat rate)
Activation: Swift
Activating a sizing weapon changes its size category to any other that you desire.
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Then I started thinking about it. Any size category? Wow. So, I could take a +1 dagger and put sizing on it. For less than 10,000 gp, I have something that could kill lots of things in one round.
I grapple someone, stick my dagger into the bad dude and do a swift action to change the size category of the dagger to colossal. Presto. Filet of monster. That dagger changing from a medium sized light weapon to a colossal sized light weapon in the time it takes to do a swift action. That's a lot of expanding force ripping that monster's chest apart within one second.
NOTE:
If I don't reply to this thread for several days, it's because I am cutting back my internet activity at the moment. I will be replying eventually.
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Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
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Qucalion of Celene
Sergeant
910 Posts
Salt Lake City, Utah
| | 05/30/2007 10:54 PM |
| "A weapon's size isn't the same as iis size as an object. A Medium dagger (one sized for a Medium character), for instance is a Tiny object. (see Table 9-10: Size and Armor Class of Objects, page 166). Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder." - Player's Handbook, page 113, column 2, 4th paragraph.
A dagger, with it's varying size would do the following base damages:
Diminutive: 1
Tiny: 1d2
Small: 1d3
Medium: 1d4
Large: 1d6
Huge: 1d8
Gargantuan: 2d6
Colossal: 2d8 or 3d6
The values for Small & Medium sizes comes from Table 7-5 on page 116 of the PHB. Tiny and Large values from Table 7-4 on page 114 of the PHB. All other values were taken derived through interpolation of the given values.
By the above values for damage, and assuming a medium sized creature with 18 strength with a Collosal sized dagger, would do 2d8+5 (7 - 21) or 3d6+5 (8 - 23) points of damage to a given creature.
As for the cost of said dagger, which would be 7,302 gp is a lot of change. Referencing Table 5-1 on page 135 of the DMG, that's in the range of a 6th level character (the suggested wealth of a 5th level character is 5,400 gp and a 6th is 9,000). At 6th level, you're looking at a Girallion with 7d10+20 (27 - 90) hit points.
I don't think it's the uber-weapon that you think it is, but it does have a lot of opportunities for abuse as well as some great role-playing opportunities.
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Qucalion of Celene
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 05/31/2007 5:43 AM |
| | Penalties for weilding an inappropriately sized weapon still apply, correct? | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
| | 05/31/2007 5:43 AM |
| As a DM I wouldn't allow such a wide interpretation to the rule. It's a switt action, hence it cannot be done in a middle of a standard action. You can change the size either before or after the attack. If it's after, you do not gain any damage bonus. If it's before you better be able to use a colossal weapon (no grappling and proficient).
The way I see this weapon quality is a method of smuggling weapons, or having a single weapon that can triple as a dagger, a long sword and a two handed sword (if you allow the same weapon different size variant, which I personaly dislike). Hence, It's well balanced as a 5000 gp flat value.
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Champion of Cockatrices.
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zenthrus
Commander
4601 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 05/31/2007 8:37 AM |
| A medium-sized creature even with powerful build (bumps up to large) AND monkey grip (bumps up to huge) couldn't weapon sized for a gargantuan creature. As madda pointed out, as a swift action it cannot be taken in the middle of another action (must be either before or after).
I suppose you could use the 3.0 weapon scaling rules and rule that a colossal dagger = gargantuan short sword = huge longsword = large greatsword and therefore could conceivably be wielded using powerful build and/or monkey grip.
I just don't see the sizing property being terribly useful. Best case scenario I could see someone shrinking their weapon to diminutive size to conceal it, then growing it back to normal during a surprise round during an assassination/infiltration situation.
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 05/31/2007 10:15 AM |
| Posted By madda on 05/31/2007 5:43 AM
As a DM I wouldn't allow such a wide interpretation to the rule. It's a switt action, hence it cannot be done in a middle of a standard action. You can change the size either before or after the attack. If it's after, you do not gain any damage bonus. If it's before you better be able to use a colossal weapon (no grappling and proficient).
The way I see this weapon quality is a method of smuggling weapons, or having a single weapon that can triple as a dagger, a long sword and a two handed sword (if you allow the same weapon different size variant, which I personaly dislike). Hence, It's well balanced as a 5000 gp flat value.
Beat me to the punch, madda. This kind of interpretation is very cinematic and could be appropriate for a novel or movie, but it doesn't work in the framework of game mechanics for the reasons madda mentioned.Â
Another use is for druids who wild shape. For instance, if you want your large or huge form to have an apprpriate sized weapon without having to continuously carry one, this is the way to do it.
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Olaf the Stout
Sergeant
400 Posts
Adelaide, Australia
| | 05/31/2007 5:05 PM |
| Posted By madda on 05/31/2007 5:43 AM
As a DM I wouldn't allow such a wide interpretation to the rule. It's a switt action, hence it cannot be done in a middle of a standard action. You can change the size either before or after the attack. If it's after, you do not gain any damage bonus. If it's before you better be able to use a colossal weapon (no grappling and proficient).
The way I see this weapon quality is a method of smuggling weapons, or having a single weapon that can triple as a dagger, a long sword and a two handed sword (if you allow the same weapon different size variant, which I personaly dislike). Hence, It's well balanced as a 5000 gp flat value.
That's pretty much how I'd rule it as well. I can't see too many DM's letting players prick monsters with a dagger and then letting it expand and rip a monster apart.
Olaf the Stout | |
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realmaster
Underboss
1898 Posts
Home of the 2002 Winter Olympics
| | 05/31/2007 8:15 PM |
| | this ability could be really cool in a campaign as long as the dm does not let it get out of hand. | |
Thanks, realmaster. Let's split up!!!!!
RIP Gary Gygax 1938-2008
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Qucalion of Celene
Sergeant
910 Posts
Salt Lake City, Utah
| | 05/31/2007 10:18 PM |
| Posted By realmaster on 05/31/2007 8:15 PM
this ability could be really cool in a campaign as long as the dm does not let it get out of hand.
Exactly. I think it could be useful as well as fun. But it would come down to how the DM would adjdicate it. | |
Qucalion of Celene
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Wraithborne
Commander
3427 Posts
West Virginia
| | 06/01/2007 8:31 AM |
| Posted By zenthrus on 05/31/2007 8:37 AM
A medium-sized creature even with powerful build (bumps up to large) AND monkey grip (bumps up to huge) couldn't weapon sized for a gargantuan creature.
These 2 don't stack. | |
Hey Woman, Hey Woman!! Listen here. Since your ol' man ain't got no heart, maybe you'd like to see a real man. I bet you stay up late every night dreamin' you had a real man, don't ya'? I tell you what, bring your pretty little self over to my apartment tonight and I'll show you a real man!
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 06/01/2007 11:29 AM |
| | I thought they did stack. Has this come out in an errata or FAQ? | |
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Wraithborne
Commander
3427 Posts
West Virginia
| | 06/01/2007 4:45 PM |
| http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=305458
Though I'll copy/paste the pertinent info here:
Can I combine Monkey Grip and Powerful Build?
Do they stack?
No.
Powerful build says that it treats the character as being one size category larger in many ways.
And then it lists them:
- he is treated as one size larger, if doing so is advantageous to him, when he is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check.
- he is considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size can affect him.
Now, he is not treated as one size larger for the purpose of wielding weapons. Rather, he can wield weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty.
Monkey Grip(MG) would give him the same advantage, but with a -2 penalty.
Monkey Grip(MG) allows you to use a weapon of larger size than yours without changing the effort you need to wield it, but with a -2 penalty to attack rolls.
The Half-Giant and the Goliath, being Medium creatures, would be allowed to use weapons designed for Large creatures with a -2 penalty, penalty that they can avoid simply using their Powerful Build ability.
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Hey Woman, Hey Woman!! Listen here. Since your ol' man ain't got no heart, maybe you'd like to see a real man. I bet you stay up late every night dreamin' you had a real man, don't ya'? I tell you what, bring your pretty little self over to my apartment tonight and I'll show you a real man!
Ghouls: 1 Player Characters: 0 | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 06/01/2007 7:59 PM |
| | Cool, thanks for posting it here. Never used the build myself, but glad they have covered it. | |
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Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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Raland
Sergeant
867 Posts
| | 06/02/2007 9:10 AM |
| | Every time, I've ran an evil campaign it has broken down to this (backstabbing and infighting), despite much leg work and intricately woven storylines. | |
Champion of the Kender
ckissee - "providing TPK's since 2007"
Albert Einstein never once said that if the bees disappeared, "man would have only four years of life left" but the theory is a scary prospect. | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4601 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 06/02/2007 9:23 AM |
| Posted By Wraithborne on 06/01/2007 8:31 AM Posted By zenthrus on 05/31/2007 8:37 AM
A medium-sized creature even with powerful build (bumps up to large) AND monkey grip (bumps up to huge) couldn't weapon sized for a gargantuan creature.
These 2 don't stack.
Using the 3.5 sizing rules it's completely impossible for a large-sized or smaller creature to ever wield a colossal weapon. So, even if somehow you managed to stick the dagger into a person's chest (a cinematic effect not suited to the D&D combat rules), and managed to convince your DM to allow you to trigger a swift action as part of a standard action (not likely), you couldn't hold the dagger in your enemy's chest while it grows because of the impossibility of your wielding it. So, under any conceivable circumstances (excepting cinematics) the colossal-dagger-in-the-chest trick can't mechanically work.
As a tangent, the funniest game-breaking mechanic is the bag-o'-rats. Give a bag full of normal rats to a character with whirlwind attack and great cleave. They drop the bag o' rats at the foot of the BBEG. According to whirlwind attack you gain one attack at your normal highest attack bonus against each opponent within 5'. Great cleave gives you an extra attack at the same bonus against a different opponent when one of your attacks drops an opponent. So, kill rat + cleave BBEG = rinse, repeat. 
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Wraithborne
Commander
3427 Posts
West Virginia
| | 06/02/2007 10:24 AM |
| | The Whirlwind thing was fixed in 3.5. You can't cleave with Whirwind anymore. | |
Hey Woman, Hey Woman!! Listen here. Since your ol' man ain't got no heart, maybe you'd like to see a real man. I bet you stay up late every night dreamin' you had a real man, don't ya'? I tell you what, bring your pretty little self over to my apartment tonight and I'll show you a real man!
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zenthrus
Commander
4601 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 06/02/2007 10:33 AM |
| Posted By Wraithborne on 06/02/2007 10:24 AM
The Whirlwind thing was fixed in 3.5. You can't cleave with Whirwind anymore. There goes bag o' rats. I suppose all that's left are Beholder Magi and Pun-Pun 
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Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
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Wraithborne
Commander
3427 Posts
West Virginia
| | 06/02/2007 12:01 PM |
| | King of Smack, Cheater of Mystra, Hulking Hurler, 1496 attacks in a round, 4603 AC, +4593 to hit, +7,467 to any skill check ...there's all kinds of brokenness still out there. | |
Hey Woman, Hey Woman!! Listen here. Since your ol' man ain't got no heart, maybe you'd like to see a real man. I bet you stay up late every night dreamin' you had a real man, don't ya'? I tell you what, bring your pretty little self over to my apartment tonight and I'll show you a real man!
Ghouls: 1 Player Characters: 0 | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 06/02/2007 9:17 PM |
| And there's new great combinations with every book.  | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 06/04/2007 9:52 AM |
| Interesting out of combat application for this baby- demolition work:
1) Take a light hammer with Sizing.
2) Shrink down to very very really small size (say about the size of a key for instance)
3) Using Tweezers, insert into a keyhole or other small gap
4) Use Sizing to expand to really really big- make sure you're not in the way!
5) Door or lock or wall is now pretty much destroyed
6) continue on way
for even more cheesier cheese, make the hammer out of adamentine! | |
Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 06/04/2007 10:03 AM |
| | Of course, if your breaking a door down, it makes no sense to just save the 5000 gp and just break the door down, especially if it's adamantine. I like it. | |
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 06/04/2007 8:04 PM |
| Posted By gss_000 on 06/04/2007 10:03 AM Of course, if your breaking a door down, it makes no sense to just save the 5000 gp and just break the door down, especially if it's adamantine. I like it.
But its not just doors, its anything you can stick that little sucker into
-- chink in the morter of the BBEG's stronghold? No more wall as a swift action!
-- knothole in the floor of the inn? No more floor as a swift action!
-- Small puncture wound in the dragon? Insert hammer and no more dragon!
--small leak in the enemy ship? No more ship!
add returning for extra cheese, then you don't have to worry about loosing it.
yep, used creatively this may in fact be broken. | |
Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6562 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 06/04/2007 9:59 PM |
| Stick the really small hammer in someone's nose...
If you can't poke someone with a dagger on purpose in 3.5 and then expand it, is there rules preventing you from inserting the really small hammer in their nose if you have them pinned?
About the dagger, if it were placed right next to their chest (touching not poking) and expanded, you wouldn't have to have strength to hold it in place as it expanded. It would expand straight out from its center--the blade would impale itself into the creature as it is expanding from medium (or smaller) to colossal in the time it takes to do a swift action (a second or less, I would reckon). To say you have to hold it in place doesn't make much sense. It's moving so fast the force would shove it into the creature. In fact, you might want to let go and avoid the growing back end.
So, using 3.5 rules, starting a round pinning an opponent, standard action to place the dagger touching their chest (touch attack at worst since no damage is intended, merely contact), swift action to change size. I don't see what the problem is. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 06/05/2007 10:07 AM |
| Posted By Corim Danex on 06/04/2007 9:59 PM
So, using 3.5 rules, starting a round pinning an opponent, standard action to place the dagger touching their chest (touch attack at worst since no damage is intended, merely contact), swift action to change size. I don't see what the problem is.
Page 157 of the PHB on what you can do when pinning an opponent:
You can't draw or use a weapon (against the pinned character or any other character)
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Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6562 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 06/06/2007 12:00 AM |
| | That's silly. I am a scrawny guy, and I could pull a wpn on someone I was pinning if I were so inclined. To say that a seasoned fighter couldn't do it is ridiculous. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 06/06/2007 10:33 AM |
| You can't perfectly simulate everything. You can still damage the other person with grapple checks, just not in the way you want. It's not a martial arts simulator that handles all the different pins and moves that could happen in real life. Instead it decides for simplicity to have two states for holds: pinned and grappled. For each there is only a set of things you can do.
But your point was that with 3.5 rules you could take this action that was broken because of the sizing property on a weapon. Under the rules you can't, so the problem you started out with doesn't exist. If you want to start changing the rules for your own game, go ahead, but as written it's completely consistent. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
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Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4601 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 06/06/2007 10:51 AM |
| Posted By Corim Danex on 06/06/2007 12:00 AM
That's silly. I am a scrawny guy, and I could pull a wpn on someone I was pinning if I were so inclined. To say that a seasoned fighter couldn't do it is ridiculous. Have you ever tried? Pinning someone typically involves a lock which has your arms encircling your opponent and your fingers laced for a stronger grip. Kind of hard to pull a weapon without a free hand. You must have opposable big toes or something.
Watch a jiujitsu or UFC match and pay attention to how they pin each other. It requires a tremendous amount of effort and tangles up the arms and usually legs as well (which is why the person pinning is can't do much while they hold the pin in the grappling rules).
As to it being silly that a character couldn't hold a growing weapon in place....yup, silly. However, mechanically, a medium-sized character cannot manipulate a colossal weapon with any effect. With a high enough strength you could drag/push/pull/lift off the ground/lift over head. However, using a colossal weapon for anything other than a fancy strength demonstration is not possible via the game mechanics (realism sacrificed for simplicity of game play).
Strength aside, there's the question of how you activate the item once it is placed inside the barricade you wish to demolish since weapon properties can only be triggered by an individual wielding the weapon. Hard to wield something that has been placed inside another object. Regardless of whether you're trying to cram a diminuative object in someone else's nose or your tweezering a fine-size object into a keyhole, there's just no rules-legal way of activating that item once you've successfully placed it.
I just don't see that mechanically this is an abusable item. Other DMs might choose to rule differently if they like allowing for more cinematic (but mechanically unsound) actions.
| |
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Qucalion of Celene
Sergeant
910 Posts
Salt Lake City, Utah
| | 06/06/2007 12:08 PM |
| As a DM I like to reward creative thinking. Such as the sword-weilding barbarian deciding that the sword didn't cut it (pun unindented . . . but I'll take credit) and needed something blunt to smash them with. The nearest blunt object he could use was another skeleton. He grappled with it and started swinging it around at the other skeletons. Both "weapon" and opponent took damage. Once his weapon took sufficient damage it became useless and he had to get another one.
With the sizing question, if the same barbarian was still using his sword, when scoring a good hit (which would do little damage) could resize it larger, I could rule that the sword was thrust through the skeleton's ribs, doing little damage, but then the resizing of the sword to something larger might do a little more damage, get wedged in the rib cage, then the barbarian could use it as a lever to slam the undead against the wall.
On the evil side of DMing . . .
Resizing the weapon to diminuative size might just make it so tiny that should it be used to "pick" the lock, it might be dropped and lost in the debris on the floor. Or if attempted to "nose pick" (couldn't resist), it might cause the opponent to sneeze, causing the item to fly away at Mach speed . . . being lost in the debris and 'snot' being recoverable.
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Qucalion of Celene
Master Champion of the Dice Tale[http://dicetales.kuglerworld.com/]
Ringleader of the Magical Mystery Trade
Conductor of the MaxMinis Commuter Trade
Official Wizards of the Coast Delegate
King of the Caveats
Resume: http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/678297/view/topic/Default.aspx
Have/Want List Last Update: 5 July 2008 | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6562 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 06/06/2007 6:25 PM |
| | Zenthrus, good point on the pinning thing. The pinner is practically pinned himself, as he has to hold his position to keep the other one held. Thanks for the martial arts insight. I don't feel as frustrated after several of the above explanations. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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