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zenthrus
Commander
4647 Posts
    
SLC, UT
 | | 06/30/2007 8:29 PM |
| | It just occurred to me that in order to make full plate dragonhide armor (cost = 3200gp) for a medium-sized creature you have to kill either a colossal red dragon or a colossal gold dragon. WTF? Is it just me, or is that the most ridiculous bit of stupidity ever? Essentially, only Epic-level characters are capable of producing dragonhide plate. This doesn't make sense to me. | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 06/30/2007 10:21 PM |
| | Nope. To me it doesn't seem stupid. It seems like 1) a limit to make druids, a very powerful class already, not always walking around in plate mail, 2) represent how hard it is to find the right scales for the job. As described, only the choicest pieces can be used and for full plate, a head to toe armor, you need the biggest scales as well, something only on Colossal dragons. | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4647 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 07/01/2007 2:39 AM |
| Posted By gss_000 on 06/30/2007 10:21 PM
Nope. To me it doesn't seem stupid. It seems like 1) a limit to make druids, a very powerful class already, not always walking around in plate mail, 2) represent how hard it is to find the right scales for the job. As described, only the choicest pieces can be used and for full plate, a head to toe armor, you need the biggest scales as well, something only on Colossal dragons. Take the Colossal Red mini and stick it next to a medium-sized mini. You need the biggest scales? The biggest scales are the size of a large sedan. As a means to limit druids, it's largely ineffective since: 1) you can typically find dragonhide armor for purchase in any large city (which is somewhat ironic) based on maximum item cost limits; 2) druids can just combine ironwood and permanency for wooden full plate (slightly more expensive than dragonhide plate, but cost isn't nearly the limiting factor that killing a CR21 critter is). Even as a limit to druid's power I fail to see this as remotely logical. Wizards are mighty powerful as a class yet they don't need to kill the terrasque to acquire a masterwork quarterstaff. Likewise, if it truly takes killing a colossal dragon to make full plate dragonhide, how on earth can the pitiful price of ~3000 gp be justified? It would cost a ridiculously larger amount just to pay the epic-level adventuring party to go kill the dragon for you.
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 07/01/2007 1:21 PM |
| 1) You shouldn't. Just because the price allows it, it doesn't force it to be found. If you need to kill a colossal dragon, it's silly to think you can find it in a large city. How many epic characters are running around your world killing ancient dragons to provide the materials? That's not logical.
2) Right, you just proved my point. By 11th level you can even without the permanecy do the same thing, but here you have to expend significant resources for it instead of it just falling into your lap. It also has a limit of it being dispelable. A set of dragonhide armor doesn't have any of these.
But let's look at your wizard argument. This is a faulty analogy. How useful is a quarterstaff to a wizard? Essential, or even a typical build? Not really. Let's look at the druid. He can easily be a melee character. With wild shape, he has access to very potent combat forms and that can really have high defense as well. Add on top of that spells that add armor bonus that typically only a druid can get really high (barkskin) and his AC can get to levels others have a hard time getting to. Now you want to add an easy to get +8 armor bonus, which with not a lot of money can be made to remain in wild shape form? That's overpowered and that's the limit I was talking about. You would have a better fighter than a fighter if you didn't. It's too useful. The equivalent would be a wizard getting a staff of power. Should that be on every shelf?
I agree the price for it is too low. I think the double the standard price works well for the lower end items, but not fr full plate. Here the rules should have had a ramp in prices like happens with adamantine and heavy armor. It should cost at least as much as that. | |
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6438 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 07/02/2007 2:29 PM |
| | Well, you could make it out of several smaller dragons of the same type. Every group I've ever DM'ed for just sells the dragons body off anyway... | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4647 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 07/03/2007 11:26 AM |
| Per the DMG it specifically states you must use a dragon 4 sizes bigger than the armor you wish to create (bits from smaller dragons are insufficient).
So, it seems that the argument is that plate armor for a druid is comparable to an artifact (per gss's argument). Still having a hard time wrapping my brain around that one. Druids are lacking in the AC buffing department (compared to wiz/sorc and cleric) so even with wild dragonhide full plate a druid still isn't going to be rivaling other casters in terms of AC (and druid spells are at best comparable to clerics/wizards). Plus the armor is just as vulnerable to sunder as any other armor.
I think our group will stick with what we've decided on. When I'm DMing, dragonhide full plate will be available (typically after the party reaches level 10) while when our other DM is DMing dragonhide full plate will remain completely inaccessible until epic levels (per the DMG rules). | |
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GuJiaXian
Sergeant
641 Posts
Roswell, GA
| | 07/03/2007 11:39 AM |
| | Eh, I say let the players buy the dragonhide armor if they want, regardless of their level. Then again, how are they going to react when a CR 20 red dragon shows up and asks why they're wearing his Great Aunt Bessie? | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 07/03/2007 3:43 PM |
| That's fair. I don't see their buffing options as limited because of wild shape and barkskin. The combinations of dex, natural armor, natural armor bonus, and con increase means as much as what a wizard or cleric can do, even more sometimes. But it's your group, so who cares what I say as long as you are happy.
What I like about dragonhide: If an enemy can cast it rapidly, he can resurrect a dragon from just the armor. Imagine that in a combat. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
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zenthrus
Commander
4647 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 07/03/2007 5:03 PM |
| Posted By gss_000 on 07/03/2007 3:43 PM
What I like about dragonhide: If an enemy can cast it rapidly, he can resurrect a dragon from just the armor. Imagine that in a combat. Imagine that while a druid is still wearing the armor......}
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 07/03/2007 7:12 PM |
| | Exactly. Fun for everyone. | |
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6438 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 07/06/2007 11:39 AM |
| Posted By zenthrus on 07/03/2007 5:03 PM Posted By gss_000 on 07/03/2007 3:43 PM
What I like about dragonhide: If an enemy can cast it rapidly, he can resurrect a dragon from just the armor. Imagine that in a combat. Imagine that while a druid is still wearing the armor......} 
Putting that in my little black DM book for later  | |
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Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 07/06/2007 1:30 PM |
| | Excellent. And to TeflonJeff's players if they are reading this: I'm sorry. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
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