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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6562 Posts
    
West Valley City, Utah
 | | 07/03/2007 11:44 PM |
| I was thinking about making a new base class for a quick dexterity based warrior type.
I have decided that there are enough feats out there, that while I may not get specifically the type of character I was thinking of, I may be able to come close by making a new feat instead of a full class.
Here is the feat:
Name: Quickness
Prerequisites:
EITHER Dodge and Mobility
OR Dodge and Elf (race)
Functions only while wearing light or no armor
Does not stack with speed bonuses granted by classes
Does stack with magical speed bonuses
Grants character 5 feet of speed times their Dexterity modifier.
(As Dodge is a prerequisite, there will not be anyone taking this feat with a Dex penalty)
For example, an elven fighter with Dex 16 (+3 modifier) who has the Dodge feat takes Quickness. While wearing, for example, a chain shirt, his speed is 45.
Alternatively, a human rogue with Dex 18 (+4 modifier) who has Dodge and Mobility feats takes Quickness. Wearing studded leather, his speed is 50. He then buys gloves of dexterity +2 and increases his Dex modifier by 1. This increases his speed to 55.
What do you think? (Ducks to avoid the flying fruit)
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"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
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zenthrus
Commander
4630 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 07/04/2007 12:25 AM |
| It doesn't scale with existing speed-increasing feats (i.e. Quick/Fleet of Foot). Likewise, the requirements aren't necessarily thematic with the ability (and the racial option makes it too easily available for its power). Further, why wouldn't it stack with class-based speed bonuses (a non-specified improvement bonus which stacks with everything) but would stack with magical speed bonuses (which are all enhancement bonuses).
Here's something a bit more thematic (just a suggestion, you get what you pay for  ):
Quickness
Prerequisites: Dash, Base Reflex Save +2
Benefit: When wearing light or no armor and carrying a light load your base movement speed is 10 feet faster than normal. This is considered an enhancement bonus to speed.
Special: Since this is an enhancement bonus it does not stack with most magical speed enhancement. Likewise, it does not stack with a Monk's Fast Movement ability (which is also an enhancement bonus). Fighters may take this as a bonus feat.
Supernatural Speed
Prerequisites: Quickness, Base Reflex Save +4
Benefit: When wearing light or no armor and carrying a light load your base movement speed is 20 feet faster than normal. This is considered an enhancement bonus to speed.
Special: Since this is an enhancement bonus it does not stack with most magical speed enhancement. Likewise, it does not stack with a Monk's Fast Movement ability (which is also an enhancement bonus). It does, however, stack with (rather than supercede) the Quickness feat's bonus: this is a special exception to the rules for stacking bonus types. This is a supernatural effect (thus does not function in an anti-magic zone). Fighters may take this as a bonus feat.
So, a fighter spending 3 feats (same as with the original proposal) gets a static boost of 30 feet (doesn't stack with much except barbarian Fast Movement) part of which ceases to function in anti-magic zones (thus marginally limiting an otherwise very potent ability). Single-class fighters would be limited by the base reflex save. IMO, the requirements are more thematic and there is less room for abuse (since Dex can be pumped to horribly high levels via buffing spells like Divine Agility). Monks can't benefit from these feats since enhancement bonuses (unless explicitly stated) don't stack.
A single-class fighter with Dash/Quickness/Supernatural Speed would be moving at 65 feet at 12th level (when their base Reflex save is 4). Monks move at 60 feet at 11th level. So, the benefit doesn't outshine an existing class ability (since monks will keep getting faster) but is still pretty darn potent.
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 07/04/2007 4:12 AM |
| If I was going to make an adjustment, although I like where zenthrus was going with it, I'd eliminate the racial requirement and change it to a limit of once per dex mod with a time limit of 1 round/Dex mod. This puts it on a level with boots of speed, but can be used in any situation.
Also, speed bonus can really change the way the game works. Mix a high speed with any feat that gives a pounce-like ability and a way to change direction mid charge and you'll see well designed combats broken very quickly, not to mention spring attackers. A limit to the time it can be used per day will make this something that happens usually once per encounter while still making the character effective at getting to the foes quickly. | |
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| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6562 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 07/04/2007 11:48 AM |
| | Does the wording for your version of Quickness mean that they only gain a +5 bonus over their bonus for Dash? I would prefer that Quickness +10 stacked with Dash. Perhaps, Supernatural Speed could give a +10 additional bonus and require base reflex of +3? What do you think? | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4630 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 07/04/2007 3:04 PM |
| Dash isn't an enhancement bonus, therefore it stacks with the 10 from Quickness and 20 from Supernatural speed ;D
As to modifying Supernatural Speed...it's your feat, do with it as you will. The net benefit would be lower (5+10+20 vs. 5+10+10) but single-class fighters could take it much earlier. Rangers and Rogues (or multiclass fighters) can take the feat at 2nd level (+3 bonus) or 4th level (+4 bonus). I would argue to keep the +4 bonus as a check to giving too big of a boost to low-level characters. | |
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| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6562 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 07/05/2007 8:05 AM |
| | That's good reasoning, keeping it so that low level characters would not get too much. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10069 Posts
United States
| | 07/05/2007 7:54 PM |
| It's a tough call.
My first hunch is to say it's too powerful. But, my second hunch is to point out that it's not a "must have" feat. I can think of lots of characters that meet the prerequisites that wouldn't take the feat.
However, I find it very difficult to imagine why there wouldn't be tons of elves running around (literally, I suppose) with this. And, in that regard, it does seem too powerful to me.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 07/05/2007 8:17 PM |
| | Maybe instead of stacking, it should replace the dash bonus so it's still an increase from dash, but not a huge number in the end. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
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| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6562 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 07/05/2007 11:19 PM |
| | I think the original feat I posted at the start is too powerful. I want to find a way to work speed through feats in a way that makes it worthwhile without overdoing it. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6438 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 07/06/2007 11:37 AM |
| I like the first feat, but it should be both Dodge and Mobility, no racial reqirement, and capped at a +20 ft speed bonus. | |
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Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6562 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 07/06/2007 1:08 PM |
| A cap is a very good idea, Teflon Jeff. Pulling out the racial requirement, it would be this:
Name: Quickness
Prerequisites:
Dodge and Mobility
Functions only while wearing light or no armor
Does not stack with speed bonuses granted by classes
Does stack with magical speed bonuses
Grants character 5 feet of speed times their Dexterity modifier, with a maximum increase of +20 feet. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|
gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 07/06/2007 1:48 PM |
| | Just to be sure, you do see that it could be taken as early as 1st level, right? | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6562 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 07/06/2007 1:49 PM |
| What about adding:
Minimum character level 6? | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|
gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 07/06/2007 3:37 PM |
| | I don't think that's too bad. My gut is to put it somewhere at 8th or 9th, but that could be too conservative. Not sure about this. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6562 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 07/06/2007 6:37 PM |
| I have also thought about making it a feat that you need the Dex and levels for its effectiveness to increase
Meaning, a +4 modifier allows access to up to 20 feet of movement
However, you only get to use +5 of speed for every three character levels until you reach as much as your Dex modifier allows
This would make it so that you could have +5 at level 1-3, +10 at level 4-6, +15 at level 7-9, and +20 at level 10 on up
This would make the feat complicated, but may help balance it out. What do you think? | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|
zenthrus
Commander
4630 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 07/07/2007 4:06 AM |
| There's still the problem of creating a bonus that stacks illogically. Some class speed increases (Monk) are an enhancement bonus. Others (barbarian) are not. Further, virtually all (I can think of only one exception) magical bonuses to speed are enhancement bonuses. So, I'd again strongly suggest that the bonus be an enhancement bonus to speed (won't stack with magic or with Monks). Otherwise, you end up with a bonus that doesn't follow the rules for stacking bonuses.
| |
Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
Have/Want List
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| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6438 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 07/09/2007 9:15 AM |
| Posted By gss_000 on 07/06/2007 1:48 PM
Just to be sure, you do see that it could be taken as early as 1st level, right?
True, but at a cost of feats. I think it stays somewhat balanced.
I think the Bonus should be labeled Fast Movement. It will stack with a monk, but not a Barbarian. | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 07/09/2007 10:57 AM |
| | Right, but the cost is minimal in a lot of ways because they are 1) very useful and 2) easily lead to great feats like Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack which also benefit from this new feat. That changes the equation. It's not like Die Hard, a useful feat that has a high "cost" of the Endurance feat which in most cases never comes up. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6562 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 07/09/2007 1:13 PM |
| | If anything, I wanted this feat to NOT stack with monk's fast movement. I think that the rules issues are making this too difficult to make a balanced feat that does anything like I had in mind. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Ha 80/80---De 60/60---Ar 60/60---GoL 72/72---Ab 60/60---Dk 60/60---Af 60/60---Ud 60/60---WD 60/60---WDQ 60/60---BW 60/60---UH 60/60---NB 60/60---DDe 60/60---SSB 59/60 (Does anyone want to buy my SSB collection?)
Champion of Something, I imagine I will think of something
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|
zenthrus
Commander
4630 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 07/09/2007 3:31 PM |
| Posted By Corim Danex on 07/09/2007 1:13 PM
If anything, I wanted this feat to NOT stack with monk's fast movement.
The only way to accomplish this is to make the feats add an enhancement bonus (which then wouldn't stack with the Monk's enhancement bonus). Granted, that then negates any hope of it stacking with magic items (unless you create a morale, insight, sacred, or circumstance-based item which boosts speed). | |
Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
Have/Want List
Trade References | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 07/09/2007 5:37 PM |
| | You could add that as a line in the feat, that it doesn't stack with movement increases granted by class features. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6438 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 07/10/2007 7:27 AM |
| Posted By gss_000 on 07/09/2007 5:37 PM
You could add that as a line in the feat, that it doesn't stack with movement increases granted by class features.
That has been tossed around, and some think it is a bit too wordy to add in. Personally, I think it should be fine... | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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