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Subject: {possible spoiler} Expedition to Castle Ravenloft

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realmaster
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07/15/2007 4:13 PM  
my dm does not have access to the internet. my character missed his save so his life is on the line. in the module they have a priest using an arcane spell that he ripped out of a book and casting it as a scroll. the spell is circle of death and I read in the DMG on pg.238 that divine users using an arcane spell is not possible and vise versa. the encounter is on Pg 40 and the priests name is Danovich, Fallen Priest ENCOUNTER 7. the dm tells me that the priest has no feats or anything that allows him to cast arcane spells so what have you done here or what would you do here. we were thinking of using something like inflict light wounds, mass.

*update*

I found a couple of threads over at wotc when going there to post the same question and I seen a couple of threads and I think these ideas would work but want your opinions on them.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=861925&highlight=Expedition 

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=847194&highlight=Expedition 

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07/15/2007 5:15 PM  
What level are the PC's? Off the top of my head though, if people are close enough for mass inflict spells, flame strike also works. But they are suggesting inflict moderate wounds, not light.

However, this is a very dicey situation. How do you retcon the situation? You said you already failed the save, so the encounter is over, right? Are you going to redo the combat?

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realmaster
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07/16/2007 10:31 PM  
Posted By gss_000 on 07/15/2007 5:15 PM
What level are the PC's? Off the top of my head though, if people are close enough for mass inflict spells, flame strike also works. But they are suggesting inflict moderate wounds, not light.

However, this is a very dicey situation. How do you retcon the situation? You said you already failed the save, so the encounter is over, right? Are you going to redo the combat?

we are 6th level. the combat part of the encounter had not started yet. we went through the front door, he threw the spell and I failed my save by one stupid number so as he was looking up the spell just to make sure and he noticed that it is an arcane and not divine. it was late so we stopped right there and he asked me to get a few opinions on the boards for him. basically what were the other dm's subbing the spell for. he contacted me today and is thinking about another spell but still wants to hear other dm ideas on they would/did handle this mistake in the module.

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zenthrus
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07/17/2007 1:15 AM  
1st Option (and the one offered in the errata): Change Evil domain to Undeath domain. Danovich now has access to Circle of Death as a divine spell and therefore no issues casting it from a scroll.
2nd Option: The Liber Blaspheme is an artifact with undefined powers (the description in the appendix is only for the very small bit remaining). Not outside the realm of artifact powers to allow whoever tears a page out of the Liber to be able to cast the spell contained as either arcane or divine.
3rd Option: Swap Circle of Death for Slay Living (and presume that the scroll was prepared with the Reach Spell metamagic feat included).
4th Option (the brutal option): Swap Circle of Death for Destruction. Good luck finding that 25,000gp diamond.
5th Option: Swap Circle of Death for Blasphemy. This assumes that you entered the room first (if you entered first then you'd be the only PC in range of the spell) and the scroll's caster level is 16+.
6th Option: Swap Circle of Death for Wail of the Banshee. Again, assumes that you entered the room first (and are therefore the only PC in range when the spell went off).
7th Option: Swap Circle of Death for Miracle which is then used to replicate Circle of Death.

There are quite a few options for handling this situation. I would go with option 2 or 7 since in those cases nothing will actually change from what's written in the module. Option 1 has the nasty side effect of having to adjust all of Danovich's spell DCs (pain in the patoot). The other options are situational but are workable as long as certain parameters were met (mostly that your character entered the room a second before the rest of the party). I don't know that I'd bring up option 4 since that one is pretty grim.


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nyjastul69
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07/17/2007 6:58 AM  
I swapped out Circle of Death for Mass Inflict Serious Wounds. Zenthrus' options are all good.


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07/17/2007 10:57 AM  
I used option 2 when I ran the adventure, not that it mattered every PC made the save.


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07/17/2007 11:06 AM  
The reason I didn't use some of the other options is that I didn't like the original encounter. It's essentially a save vs. TPK and I didn't really want that.


You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com

gss_000
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07/17/2007 11:55 AM  
6th level characters facing at minimun an 11th level cleric? Wow. That seems really brutal and an overpowered encounter. Maybe he is a more appropriate level, but then he'd have to make a caster level check.

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zenthrus
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07/17/2007 12:34 PM  
Posted By gss_000 on 07/17/2007 11:55 AM
Maybe he is a more appropriate level, but then he'd have to make a caster level check.
Yup. That would be the case.


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gss_000
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07/17/2007 1:08 PM  
Okay, a little better, but I dislike this mechanic for balancing an encounter.  With that in mind, any of zenthrus' suggestions would work.  I think #2 is the best, myself, but that is just me, although the spell choices others have mentioned work just as well.

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zenthrus
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07/17/2007 1:50 PM  
Posted By gss_000 on 07/17/2007 11:55 AM
6th level characters facing at minimun an 11th level cleric? Wow. That seems really brutal and an overpowered encounter.
Somewhat like a party of 9th-10th level characters facing CR15 Strahd....

Expedition to Castle Ravenloft is on the upper end in terms of lethality for WotC published adventures. Many of the encounters range between deadly and TPK.

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Shottglazz
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07/17/2007 2:22 PM  
For reference, the 2nd ed adventure this is based on (which was based on the original Ravenloft 1st ed adventure) was very deadly. Most of the encounters were a potential TPK (chain lightning down a spiral staircase at the pc's, gargoyle golems attacking from surprise, etc).

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realmaster
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07/18/2007 12:41 AM  
Posted By zenthrus on 07/17/2007 1:15 AM
1st Option (and the one offered in the errata): Change Evil domain to Undeath domain. Danovich now has access to Circle of Death as a divine spell and therefore no issues casting it from a scroll.
where is the errata? that was the first thing that I was looking for. use the undeath domain from faerun? mmmm
Posted By gss_000 on 07/17/2007 11:55 AM
6th level characters facing at minimun an 11th level cleric? Wow. That seems really brutal and an overpowered encounter. Maybe he is a more appropriate level, but then he'd have to make a caster level check.
he made the caster level check.

Thanks, realmaster. Let's split up!!!!!

RIP Gary Gygax 1938-2008

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zenthrus
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07/18/2007 2:23 AM  
Posted By realmaster on 07/18/2007 12:41 AM
where is the errata? that was the first thing that I was looking for. use the undeath domain from faerun? mmmm
http://boards1.wizards.com/archive/index.php/t-733164.html
It's unofficial, but handled by a well-regarded source (who creates errata listings for virtually every supplement).

Also, the Undeath domain made its way into the Spell Compendium and is therefore no longer technically setting-specific (thus a much more viable option).

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gss_000
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07/18/2007 11:25 AM  
Living Greyhawk does the same thing for clerics with the Death Domain. Since everyone in that campaign has to be good or neutral, I think they find it a better balance of the setting.

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07/18/2007 1:56 PM  
Slightly off topic: I've read the adventure and remember reading that part. I despise this kind of encounter where a lower-level NPC lets loose with a super-powerful item (save-or-die type) against the low-level PCs without them being forewarned of its existence in any way. What's the point? (1) If the scroll doesn't work, then it's very existence was useless except for having the NPC spend a round triggering it. (2) if the scroll does work, then one or more PCs (depending on the strength of the uber-item) dies. In both cases, the encounter is a bummer. The extreme take at this is having a 1st-level wizard cast a meteor swarm on a 1st level party. Sure, you only have say 5-10% that it'll work, but if it does then the game is over in the most ridiculous TPK.

Back on topic: I would definitely change the spell being cast, consequently, to something else, either any spell that the caster has access to or a less devastating higher-level spell.

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realmaster
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07/18/2007 9:01 PM  
Posted By zenthrus on 07/18/2007 2:23 AM
Posted By realmaster on 07/18/2007 12:41 AM
where is the errata? that was the first thing that I was looking for. use the undeath domain from faerun? mmmm
http://boards1.wizards.com/archive/index.php/t-733164.html
It's unofficial, but handled by a well-regarded source (who creates errata listings for virtually every supplement).

Also, the Undeath domain made its way into the Spell Compendium and is therefore no longer technically setting-specific (thus a much more viable option).

hopefully the official errata will address this encounter. I will have to pull out my spell compendium but does it say that priests have access to arcane spells when taking this domain?
Posted By Skyscraper on 07/18/2007 1:56 PM
Slightly off topic: I've read the adventure and remember reading that part. I despise this kind of encounter where a lower-level NPC lets loose with a super-powerful item (save-or-die type) against the low-level PCs without them being forewarned of its existence in any way. What's the point? (1) If the scroll doesn't work, then it's very existence was useless except for having the NPC spend a round triggering it. (2) if the scroll does work, then one or more PCs (depending on the strength of the uber-item) dies. In both cases, the encounter is a bummer. The extreme take at this is having a 1st-level wizard cast a meteor swarm on a 1st level party. Sure, you only have say 5-10% that it'll work, but if it does then the game is over in the most ridiculous TPK.

Back on topic: I would definitely change the spell being cast, consequently, to something else, either any spell that the caster has access to or a less devastating higher-level spell.

Sky

I agree with you on this spell should be changed to another. I cant imagine going out and spending $34.95 for a module and having a TPK or less happen at that early in the module. so now you have to start up new characters and I dont know about others but I hate starting a character at a high level. starting at first is the best, this way you get to have the fun of bringing him up levels and having a story to put with the character. or you cant or wont run the module with this group and the module sits until you can use it again with a different group.

Thanks, realmaster. Let's split up!!!!!

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07/18/2007 9:40 PM  
hopefully the official errata will address this encounter. I will have to pull out my spell compendium but does it say that priests have access to arcane spells when taking this domain?


No. The only spells that previously were on just Sor/Wiz spell list were this Circle of Death and Control Undead. As part of the domain, these would be considered divine spell, similar to how cure light wounds is an arcane spell cast by a bard. The cleric couldn't cast a normal arcane scroll of this, but you could return to the idea that this is an artifact so the spell can be treated as both arcane and divine concerning who could cast it.

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nyjastul69
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07/19/2007 7:03 AM  
Here are some links I found useful when running EtCR.

http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=review&reviewid=3221768

http://homepage.mac.com/jedwhite/Ravenloft%20Monster%20Images.html



You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com
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07/19/2007 10:46 AM  
I've been using that second link as I prep for running it. Very handy.

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realmaster
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07/19/2007 11:00 PM  
thanks for the links, quite a lot of info.

http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=review&reviewid=3221768

http://homepage.mac.com/jedwhite/Ravenloft%20Monster%20Images.html

Thanks, realmaster. Let's split up!!!!!

RIP Gary Gygax 1938-2008

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References: I have given up on creating a link down here so you will have to click the green shield on the left and I hope that it works for you. Sometimes it does not work for me.
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