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Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
    
San Jose, California
 | | 07/21/2007 8:02 AM |
| Never underestimate a dragon, even the young ones are dangerous.. I still remember when my PCs foolishly went after a red dragon without asking how big it was or anything.... So...
Just a thought... Greater Dispel is so much fun... You come prepared humans, the Red Dragon says. However, you weren't prepared for this! Greater Dispelling quickened, with the check so high thanks to the many bonuses I have, all your continuing effects are dead. Next for a regular spell I cast an antimagic ray which nullifies the main spellcaster (Since I have such a good wisdom, intelligence, and I was already prepared for you when you stepped foot into my lair I know who it is) and then I take flight to nullify your warriors. Better start running because I will cast mass hold person with the persistent spell feat to make it 24 hours and the DC happens to be in the 40s to 50s. I'll kill all of you before you can say mommy.
Yeah... Greater Dispelling is so much fun. | |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai.  I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
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Wraithborne
Commander
3440 Posts
West Virginia
| | 07/21/2007 10:30 AM |
| | I always use a dragons spells and abilities to the best possible outcome for it. Many DMs I've played for have made dragons little more than claw/claw/bite machines and that is a true disservice to their power. | |
Hey Woman, Hey Woman!! Listen here. Since your ol' man ain't got no heart, maybe you'd like to see a real man. I bet you stay up late every night dreamin' you had a real man, don't ya'? I tell you what, bring your pretty little self over to my apartment tonight and I'll show you a real man!
Ghouls: 1 Player Characters: 0 | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4680 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 07/21/2007 12:23 PM |
| | Dragon CRs are a weensy bit low for their power levels. If you actually use a dragon's full power-up suite and offensive spells they can be quite deadly for their CR. Add on top of that the fact that you can modify their feat selection THEN start using intelligent tactics (such as Greater Dispel, bull rush off cliffs, etc.) and dragons are a good source of TPK. | |
Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
Have/Want List
Trade References | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 07/22/2007 1:32 AM |
| Just a thought... Greater
Dispel is so much fun... You come prepared humans, the Red Dragon says.
However, you weren't prepared for this! Greater Dispelling quickened...
Well, it's not like no one at this level would ever have a ring of counterspells to counteract Greater Dispel Magic. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6567 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 07/24/2007 5:46 PM |
| Yeah, if I'm going dragon hunting, as a player, I'm pretty prepared for just about anything. Especially counterspells.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
Wraithborne
Commander
3440 Posts
West Virginia
| | 07/26/2007 12:11 AM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 07/24/2007 5:46 PM
Yeah, if I'm going dragon hunting, as a player, I'm pretty prepared for just about anything. Especially counterspells.
I don't always....The charactrer I've been playing on and off lately (Woody Banger) often rushes ahead supremely overconfident and then nearly dies. | |
Hey Woman, Hey Woman!! Listen here. Since your ol' man ain't got no heart, maybe you'd like to see a real man. I bet you stay up late every night dreamin' you had a real man, don't ya'? I tell you what, bring your pretty little self over to my apartment tonight and I'll show you a real man!
Ghouls: 1 Player Characters: 0 | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 07/26/2007 9:18 PM |
| The best example of this was a character I played with called Uther. He had no armor (only wore gold lamee briefs, no protection, died about 7 times, but always had to be in front so all could behold his beauty.
When my character needs a lot of protection, I am ready for Greater Dispel Magic. If not, then I don't care and a dragon can waste a quickened dispel magic on him. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
|
Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 07/26/2007 11:17 PM |
| Posted By gss_000 on 07/26/2007 9:18 PM
The best example of this was a character I played with called Uther. He had no armor (only wore gold lamee briefs, no protection, died about 7 times, but always had to be in front so all could behold his beauty.
When my character needs a lot of protection, I am ready for Greater Dispel Magic. If not, then I don't care and a dragon can waste a quickened dispel magic on him.
Yeah, that is, if you can beat the initiative checks.. Often times, players assume that they have everything ready, and then falls flat because they didn't prepare ahead of time. And most often, what is the dragon usually doing? Just sitting and waiting? No.. He prepares for the warriors with his own arsenal. He's watching your every move. And he'll know whether or not to throw a spell out there... An intelligent dragon concerned with a wizard will know that he'll have a few tricks.. How's this, warriors walk into the treasure room, see no dragon, or the illusion of a dead dragon. They fall flatfooted to the dragon's arsenal. Or, try and beat an initiative check of +32 (yes, this can actually legally be much much higher in the power gaming side), if not, you fall victim to everything the dragon pulls off on you.
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Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6567 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 07/27/2007 1:01 PM |
| You know, I recall a Gary Gygax article talking about how the DM could always get the drop on the players. Most of the outcry of replies was "Duh! he's the DM!" so, really, this is little more than an exercise of again showing the DM to be in a position of power, and apparently abusing it.
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 07/28/2007 6:54 PM |
| Yeah, that is, if you can beat the initiative checks.. Often times, players assume that they have everything ready, and then falls flat because they didn't prepare ahead of time. And most often, what is the dragon usually doing? Just sitting and waiting? No.. He prepares for the warriors with his own arsenal. He's watching your every move. And he'll know whether or not to throw a spell out there... An intelligent dragon concerned with a wizard will know that he'll have a few tricks.. How's this, warriors walk into the treasure room, see no dragon, or the illusion of a dead dragon. They fall flatfooted to the dragon's arsenal. Or, try and beat an initiative check of +32 (yes, this can actually legally be much much higher in the power gaming side), if not, you fall victim to everything the dragon pulls off on you.
Initiative is important, but how much can you really do? Sure a dragon can kill a PC, but I just don't think it's as cut and dry as your presenting it. To pull off what you're talking about the encounter, to be balanced would require the PCs to be powerful, too. I don't expect a dragon to be stupid in the least, but I don't expect PCs to be that either. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
|
zenthrus
Commander
4680 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 07/28/2007 8:39 PM |
| Posted By gss_000 on 07/28/2007 6:54 PM
I don't expect a dragon to be stupid in the least, but I don't expect PCs to be that either. I don't expect that, but on unfortunately frequent occasions my PCs tend to fall in that category 
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Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
Have/Want List
Trade References | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6567 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 07/29/2007 12:04 PM |
| Posted By zenthrus on 07/28/2007 8:39 PM Posted By gss_000 on 07/28/2007 6:54 PM
I don't expect a dragon to be stupid in the least, but I don't expect PCs to be that either. I don't expect that, but on unfortunately frequent occasions my PCs tend to fall in that category 
I find the problem to be more of player's not stopping and thinking, just rushing in. And that's how you get dead.
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 07/29/2007 3:05 PM |
| | Often I find players doing that too, not stopping to think that it may be a bad idea to rush in on things... I encourage power gaming, I expect it! Kill the dragon, steal the treasure, stab your buddies!! Actually, negotiations could be just as important. I remember one of my players that had a Kender, and he talked the dragon into giving him a few nice items... Yeah, roleplay is so much fun, better than hack'n'slash. | |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
|
gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 07/30/2007 12:49 PM |
| Balance is the key for me and what I like...
But, most of the time what looks like "stupidity" is just lack of information. What is obvious to the DM, who knows it all, is not clear to PCs trying to put things together.
Then again, a friend of mine GMed a player who decided to draw a sword and attack Cthulu. There was no way to justify that. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
|
Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 07/31/2007 1:39 PM |
| Posted By gss_000 on 07/30/2007 12:49 PM Balance is the key for me and what I like... But, most of the time what looks like "stupidity" is just lack of information. What is obvious to the DM, who knows it all, is not clear to PCs trying to put things together. Then again, a friend of mine GMed a player who decided to draw a sword and attack Cthulu. There was no way to justify that.
I just mention a dragon, and my treasure hungry PCs all decide to rush off to kill it... You think they'd learn after having a TPK once already. They don't think to ask what color it is, how big it is, or anything... I do have players that have gotten smarter and started asking questions, I also have had a kender player that successfully dealt with an old brass dragon, and an ancient red dragon, without fighting.
Fact remains, playing a dragon to its intelligence and abilities, the CR is much higher. Play it as a beast, well... | |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
|
gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 08/01/2007 10:13 AM |
| | I've never seen that, not like some outsiders which are definitely too low CR (the yugoloths are coming directly to mind) for the tactics their abilities would suggest. But it is definitely true that if you don't play dragons effectively or intelligently that they are a lot less dangerous. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6567 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 08/01/2007 9:09 PM |
| Posted By Kaya Kenobi on 07/31/2007 1:39 PM Posted By gss_000 on 07/30/2007 12:49 PM Balance is the key for me and what I like... But, most of the time what looks like "stupidity" is just lack of information. What is obvious to the DM, who knows it all, is not clear to PCs trying to put things together. Then again, a friend of mine GMed a player who decided to draw a sword and attack Cthulu. There was no way to justify that. I just mention a dragon, and my treasure hungry PCs all decide to rush off to kill it... You think they'd learn after having a TPK once already. They don't think to ask what color it is, how big it is, or anything... I do have players that have gotten smarter and started asking questions, I also have had a kender player that successfully dealt with an old brass dragon, and an ancient red dragon, without fighting. Fact remains, playing a dragon to its intelligence and abilities, the CR is much higher. Play it as a beast, well...
Ahh, greed, the great stupidifier.
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
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