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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2622 Posts
    
Plane of Shadow
 | | 07/22/2007 8:26 PM |
| Can someone help me figure out how to make a 1 vs. party battle last and make it challenging for the PCs? I'm not sure how it works.
(Assume it's a well rounded party who knows what they're doing) | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
Champion of Half-Golems
Knight of Golems
"This world is made for love and peace" - Trigun
"anyway..shadow..you've figured women out. KUDOS." - raye_kino16 | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 07/22/2007 10:22 PM |
| How many players do you have? Are they a balanced team? Do they have more than the standard magic items?
Without knowing specifics, here are some general tactics. Increase the CR by one or two than standard fights. Nothing huge, but that difference can make fights last longer. Battlefield control is essential here, so a druid who has laid down spike stones and then summons creatures that can burrow, etc can be huge.
Also, look at high SR and AC, or DR that the PCs don't have. Even if the PCs can get around it after spending a round or two casting spells or changing weapons, this round or two can make fights seem a lot more challenging.
Look at creatures that neutralize PCs strengths. For instance, rougues or crit monkeys ruining fights, go to golems, undead, huge elementals, etc.
Lastly, have the person be prepped for the PCs when the PCs are surprised. We did a fight against a vampire cleric and it was hard, because she had prepped for someone tricked out for turning and knew we were heading in her direction so her defensive spells were up. Think as a PC when making these types of encounters. What would a villain who has stayed alive for awhile know about gerneral tactics and do t be prepared for them.
All of these tactics shouldn't be done at the same time, nor the same trick all the time. Mixing it up can make encounters interesting and not too frustrating. And realize, the fight will still be 4-5 rounds, but it will be tense for the PCs. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2622 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 07/23/2007 6:46 AM |
| I don't know how many people will be in the group. I'm just finishing off my homebrew adventure.
Thanks for the insight. | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
Champion of Half-Golems
Knight of Golems
"This world is made for love and peace" - Trigun
"anyway..shadow..you've figured women out. KUDOS." - raye_kino16 | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 07/23/2007 11:07 AM |
| | Okay. Remember that standard encounters are built around 4 players. More people can dramatically change events. For a short time m group had seven players and that meant we could easily handle situations at ECL+3, and tough ones were ECL+4 or 5, and one that was ECL+6! | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 07/23/2007 11:13 AM |
| Watch out for the 1 vs party fights. They're often the more deadly encounters for PCs IMO. You'll be playing a stronger opponent who might be a heavy hitter who can land a lot of damage on the PCs and kill one or two before they take him down. Some PC deaths and some very close calls (including almost a TPK which turned out in no one actually dying) in my game have occurred in 1 vs party fights.
One way to go about doing such a fight would be to have it occur against an opponent which can be handled by the PCs (not too strong) but in an environment that advantages the opponent. Here's an example:
The PCs need to kill a rogue djinni who's been doing something bad in the region (insert plot hook here). The djinni resides in a keep that has a link to the elemental plane of air (a portal? For you to decide). Within the confines of the keep's walls, the djinni could control the air flow, being capable of creating difficult wind conditions wherein he could move as if under the spell of a free action, i.e. unhindered and unaffected. The PCs could be forewarned to some extent due to the existence of a slight breeze or even the occasional stronger gust of wind within the keep wallls (which makes for a fun ambiance too, as the wind can pick up in the more dramatic moments such as when a door opens into a dark room - even if it's empty, they'll expect something  ).
When the encounter with the djinni finally occurs, he would crank up the wind to "windstorm" conditions (see the SRD here http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/wildernessAndEnvironment.html for the effects of wind conditions). Each combat round, on a PC's turn, you get the PC first make a fortitude check to see if he manages to battle the effects of the wind or not. If not, he's knocked down (if medium-sized) or blown away (if small-sized). A blown-away PC will slide on the ground where he could try to grab another PC or a piece of furniture or a door or window frame (refl saves), i.e. you can have the blown-away PCs move not too rapidly, such that it takes a couple of rounds before he's actually blown out the window to fall outside of the keep, giving the PC a couple of chances to grab something and also another PC to help the blown-away PC.
If all PCs are medium-size or larger, then hurricane-force winds could be used to have the "blown away" consequence active.
Note that these wind conditions should also affect spellcasters (concentration checks to avoid spoiling the spell), and objects in the room could also fly at the PCs ("watch out for the chair!!"), attacking them at a low attack bonus and dealing a small amount of bludgeonning damage, but having the PC make another fort save to avoid being knocked down or blown away. A PC hit by the djinnig himself would also have to make a fort save or be knocked down or blown away.
I DMed a combat in a similar situation, where the players were battling a sentient air elemental during a "test" on another plane. Long story short: it was pretty interesting. The human rogue used his potion of spider climbing to manage to move upwind along the ground (he was otherwise checked), the halfling cleric was blown away but managed to grab the half-orc chain fighter's chain that was flapping in the wind (i imposed something like a -2 or -4 penalty to that particular weapon due it's nature), PCs fell down and tried to get back up here and there during combat, while the air elemental moved without hindrance around the battle field. Good stuff.
With elementals, it's easy to think up similar situations with earth or water. Fire is pretty much back to being damaged so i don't think it's as fun, but you can look into that still.
Cheers,
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 07/23/2007 11:35 AM |
| | While I agree with sky, realize it can also go in the other direction as well. With all of the characters resources aim at only 1 beastie they sometimes fall quicker than you may expect. I had a bit of trouble desining 1 vs. encounters for my group of 6. Anything that was strong enough to be a threat was also strong enough to kill PC's with one or two shots. It's a tricky thing. Good luck. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2622 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 07/23/2007 11:55 AM |
| Thanks for the explanation. Sadly, my 1 vs. PC encounters include:
Human Samurai with intelligent katana.
Crazy scientist that can summon a bad @ss construct yet to be determined.
Human Fighter w/ flaming greatersword and a spirit naga as back-up. | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
Champion of Half-Golems
Knight of Golems
"This world is made for love and peace" - Trigun
"anyway..shadow..you've figured women out. KUDOS." - raye_kino16 | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4630 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 07/23/2007 12:17 PM |
| Posted By ShadowLord XT on 07/23/2007 11:55 AM
Crazy scientist that can summon a bad @ss construct yet to be determined.
Use a Nimblewright (monster manual 2). They're still the scariest constructs I can think of (AC 26 with Cat's Grace, crit threat 12-20, if it crits, it auto-trips--and it's rapier-like weapons hit as hard as greatswords--all for CR7).
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Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
Have/Want List
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2622 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 07/23/2007 3:33 PM |
| Posted By zenthrus on 07/23/2007 12:17 PM Posted By ShadowLord XT on 07/23/2007 11:55 AM
Crazy scientist that can summon a bad @ss construct yet to be determined.
Use a Nimblewright (monster manual 2). They're still the scariest constructs I can think of (AC 26 with Cat's Grace, crit threat 12-20, if it crits, it auto-trips--and it's rapier-like weapons hit as hard as greatswords--all for CR7).
I was thinking something with a higher CR and a really high OMG factor.
For example, the Cadaver Collector is on the list. | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
Champion of Half-Golems
Knight of Golems
"This world is made for love and peace" - Trigun
"anyway..shadow..you've figured women out. KUDOS." - raye_kino16 | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 07/23/2007 6:59 PM |
| The cadaver collector by itself is a really hard fight. I think it is personally under CR so using it at an appropriate level will be challenging for the PCs.
BTW, what is the CR? | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2622 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 07/23/2007 7:12 PM |
| Posted By gss_000 on 07/23/2007 6:59 PM
BTW, what is the CR?
I don't really know. I'm thinking of getting someone to look over my adventure and tell me what level the PCs should start at. Creating your own adventure is fun, but it's getting more complicated as I get near the end.
As it stands, I have the human fighter at level 9 and the Spirit Naga weakened a bit from the MM.
The scientist is also around level 8, but he has 5 levels in a prestige class I made up, so I don't were he is in CR. I was always thinking of neutering him though so I could add in the Cadaver for my own fun.
The Samurai is yet to be created as I need to get my hands on the samurai class stats and so on. He has an intelligent item which may or may not add to the CR.
And then there's the other battles. I'll go find them in the morning and post back. Maybe you guys could help me igure out starting level and so on. I also can't figure out treasure. What's too much? what's not enough? I don't think I have enough experience to know yet. | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
Champion of Half-Golems
Knight of Golems
"This world is made for love and peace" - Trigun
"anyway..shadow..you've figured women out. KUDOS." - raye_kino16 | |
|
gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 07/23/2007 8:28 PM |
| Do you mean he has 3 levels in one class and 5 in the Pclass, then it's CR 8
If you mean 8 levels of classes and then 5 levels, then it's CR 13
This is assuming the Pclass is balanced. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2622 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 07/24/2007 6:37 AM |
| Posted By gss_000 on 07/23/2007 8:28 PM Do you mean he has 3 levels in one class and 5 in the Pclass, then it's CR 8 If you mean 8 levels of classes and then 5 levels, then it's CR 13 This is assuming the Pclass is balanced.
He has Wizard 3/ Master of Metal 5.
That's what I mean, I'm not sureit is balanced. It should still be the last post in my creature factory. Here's the link:
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/58/postid/690958/view/topic/Default.aspx | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
Champion of Half-Golems
Knight of Golems
"This world is made for love and peace" - Trigun
"anyway..shadow..you've figured women out. KUDOS." - raye_kino16 | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6438 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 07/24/2007 5:44 PM |
| Generally, if it's just one vs party, you need delay tactics. Prevent the party from just surrounding him and making it a straight hit for hit fight. A few delaying tactics (water for slow movement is a favorite, especially with electrical traps) will allow the spellcatsers to shine a bit as well. All in all, have contingencies in place for his extended survival.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Anaxagoras
Warrior
306 Posts
| | 07/31/2007 12:05 AM |
| I ran a homebrew apocalyptic/oriental adventures game (sorta Samurai Jack, but more serious) and from game one I had planned an avanced Nightwalker as the final encounter. As the PC's grew in strength, I kept retooling his stats and HD until I finally felt he could handle the party and give'em a scare.
Closest thing to a TPK campaign-ender I have ever ran. They didn't even come close to defeating it in combat-only one PC's quick thinking outside the box saved the day.
Yeah, I contend that the Titan -vs- party is tough to pull off, but rewarding as heck when done well.
I'll parrot some of the advice already mentioned:
Identify your parties weakness's and abuse those
Eliminate your parties strengths (high magic-bump the SR. Combat monsters? huge AC or DR that can't be countered)
Make the environment beneficial to the antagonist
add in unconventional threats-traps, hostages, emotional issues (The sympathetic villain who the PC's don't really want to kill is always fun)
or, when all else fails, cheat shamelessly behind the screen 
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| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6438 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 08/01/2007 9:10 PM |
| Posted By Anaxagoras on 07/31/2007 12:05 AM ...or, when all else fails, cheat shamelessly behind the screen 
There you go, the ultimate answer. I usually make it all up as I go, track the stats with a piece of paper, and figure out the CR later.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 08/02/2007 11:33 AM |
| It's funny. I was talking to my best friend from college and he reminded me of a rule I usually stated and ran with:
"He's just one guy. We can take just one guy." | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
|
Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/02/2007 2:11 PM |
| | Haha. Excellent, gss. | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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