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MackeyJ Underboss
 1414 Posts




 | | 08/11/2007 12:34 AM |
| I get all twisted up and confused when I read the rules on this.
It says that metamagic rods are use activated. If that means that a wizard doesn't have to apply the rods feat to his spells at the time he memorizes them, (like he would with his normal metamagic feats) then essentially it's allowing a wizard to cast metamagic feats spontaneously 3 times per day.
The whole reasoning behind the meta magic feats taking a full round for sorcerers is to balance things out between the sorcerer and the wizard seeing as the wizard has to select in advance and specially prepare his meta spells right? But the rods are use activated there by allowing a wizard to avoid having to preselect the spell he'll be applying the rods feat to, so a rod of quicken should work for the sorcerer too right?
However in the feat section it says that the Quicken feat can't be applied to any spell that is being cast spontaneously... but isn't that what the wizard is doing when he uses a metamagic rod? He hasn't prepared the spell he's about to cast with the feat ahead of time the feat is being applied right there and then at the moment of casting and thus the rod kicks in use activated.
Or.... does the wizard still use the meta magic rod like he would his own feats and the rod is used when memorizing his spells. In which case the meta magic part is still premeditated for the specified spell and it's the early prepwork by the wizard that's allowing for the quicken rod to still work for him?
Sorcerer can't use quicken reguardless of whether it's coming from a rod or not right?
Only thing I can see making any sense if that's the case is if the wizard is still doing all the prep work in advance with the rods and then basically just wearing the meta rods like clothing from that point on for the rest of the day. Otherwise if those rods are able to be used by wizards on any spell at any time without having to do any sort of preselection, then a quicken rod would have to work for a sorcerer too.
| | John
| |
| Kaya Kenobi Underboss
 1304 Posts



 San Jose, California
 | | 08/11/2007 7:03 AM |
| | technically speaking, no.. However, I allow sorcerers to quicken spells. | | Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley! I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else. http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
|  zenthrus Commander
 4836 Posts



 SLC, UT
 | | 08/12/2007 1:57 PM |
| Per the SRD: Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat but do not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.
Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses.
So, by-the-book you apply the metamagic feats to the spells as they are being case rather than having to prepare them ahead of time. Also by-the-book, Sorcerer's cannot Quicken spells even with a metamagic rod.
I have metamagic rods function like the Sudden metamagic feats. I house-rule (since Complete Arcane doesn't mention it) that the Sudden metamagic feats don't increase the casting time for sorcerers. So, as long as you have a metamagic rod in-hand, you can choose to apply the metamagic feat to any spell without the level increase or having needed to specifically prepare it as modified beforehand. Thus far, we haven't seen that this creates any major imbalances.
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| gss_000 Commander
 3204 Posts



 Baltimore, MD
 | | 08/12/2007 6:07 PM |
| | Zenthrus speaks the truth. Now there is a book with feats (Dragon Magic I believe?) that may get around this, but I don't remember the wording or the name so it still may not fix the Quicken problem. | | Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
| MackeyJ Underboss
 1414 Posts




 | | 08/12/2007 6:38 PM |
| Posted By zenthrus on 08/12/2007 1:57 PM
So, by-the-book you apply the metamagic feats to the spells as they are being case rather than having to prepare them ahead of time. Also by-the-book, Sorcerer's cannot Quicken spells even with a metamagic rod.
I have metamagic rods function like the Sudden metamagic feats. I house-rule (since Complete Arcane doesn't mention it) that the Sudden metamagic feats don't increase the casting time for sorcerers. So, as long as you have a metamagic rod in-hand, you can choose to apply the metamagic feat to any spell without the level increase or having needed to specifically prepare it as modified beforehand. Thus far, we haven't seen that this creates any major imbalances.
I interpret the books rules this way too.
Now here's the part that still gets me going.
Page. 88 PHB: Wiazrds and Divine Spellcasters: Wizards and divine casters(clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) must prepare their spells in advance. During preparation, the character chooses which spells to prepare with metamagic feats (and thus which ones take up higher-level spell slots than normal). If the rods are supposed to act just like the regular feat itself then a wizard would have no choice but to apply the rods feat to the spell of choice at the time of preparation. The rod of Quicken would not work even for the wizard if he were trying to apply the feat only at the time of casting.
So if the logic behind the rods is that their feats are in fact being applied to the spells at the time of casting then the rod of Quicken , at the very least, would then have to work for the sorcerer in the same way it does for the Wizard.
My gut tells me that the rules intend for the Sorcerer to not be able to use a Quickened spell under any circumstances but the rules seem to be contradicting themselves a bit if the Wizard doesn't have to apply the rods feat to his spells at the time of memorization.
I don't mind your house ruling, but I think if I were to house rule on it I would just assume that only the rod of Quicken is acting like a sudden metamagic feat. That's the one that would appear to need to function that way. Cause if the rods can be applied at the time of casting then they already seem to be acting as an exception to the rule anyways, but the quicken one is really the only one I'm having a problem with.
| | John
| |
| Kaya Kenobi Underboss
 1304 Posts



 San Jose, California
 | | 08/13/2007 8:39 AM |
| | Well as a houserule, I allow metamagic feats to apply to a sorcerer without an increase of casting time as well. So far it has not affected gameplay and somehow made the sorcerers broken. Sorcerers are very weak compared to wizards anyways. | | Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley! I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else. http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
| gss_000 Commander
 3204 Posts



 Baltimore, MD
 | | 08/13/2007 10:32 AM |
| | Never saw the sorcerers as much weaker than wizards to begin with. They are weaker, but more because of the lack of feats than the spell issue. | | Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
| Kaya Kenobi Underboss
 1304 Posts



 San Jose, California
 | | 08/13/2007 10:35 AM |
| Posted By gss_000 on 08/13/2007 10:32 AM Never saw the sorcerers as much weaker than wizards to begin with. They are weaker, but more because of the lack of feats than the spell issue.
Exactly, and then the metamagic feats tend to be more hassle than help to a sorcerer. | | Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley! I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else. http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
| MackeyJ Underboss
 1414 Posts




 | | 08/13/2007 11:21 AM |
| I've always kinda felt that the sorcerer was a little bit over costed in comparison to the wizard. Sorcerer gets to cast spontaneously, but gets far fewer spells to choose from. That's a fair trade.  He gets more slots per day, but has to wait an extra level of advancement before he gets them. This is close to a fair trade, in my opinion he may be getting just a smidge more than he deserves out of this one though. His meta magic feats end up costing him a full round action....this makes up for that little smidge I just talked about. Then you get to the part where he gets no bonus feats for his class. Now that's huge! What exactly is he getting in return here for balance. It's definitely overkill if it's being done to justify the extra slots per day.
In the end I still prefer the sorcerer for his extra slots per day and because I just don't like the time it takes to choose spells each day when the selection is so much more vaste for a wizard.
But something just doesn't seem fair to me when you start looking at the meta magic rods and all of a sudden the wizard becomes able to apply those feats on a whim but not the sorcerer, something just doesnt' jive for me there. | | John
| |
| GuJiaXian Sergeant
 652 Posts



 Roswell, GA
 | | 08/13/2007 11:45 AM |
| To me, there's absolutely no reason to not take a prestige class (with full spell progression) as soon as possible as a sorcerer. As you pointed out, they don't get any bonus feats or other class abilities after 1st level, so as long as the prestige class maintains normal spell progression, you might as well do that.
| | "Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
| gss_000 Commander
 3204 Posts



 Baltimore, MD
 | | 08/13/2007 6:26 PM |
| It seems like its not a big deal, but they never run out of spells. I think what really makes it more on par with wizard is good spell choice. Sure the variety is limited, but with good choice it's a combat fiend. I've rarely seen a sorcerer end a day out of spells, while it happens to a wizard often. Also, sorcerer is a lot more versatile a class than wizard is, specifically they have a lot of classes they can go into or come from. Sorc/Fighter, Sorc/Monk, Sorc/Paladin are all really good choices and give you a lot of options. It does need some more to make it a good full 20 level class, but I think adding feats or abilities on par with a wizard's at every 5 levels would do that.
I also Pclass out of both classes usually as soon as I can. No reason not to.Â | | Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7146 Posts



 Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
 | | 08/13/2007 6:58 PM |
| Posted By GuJiaXian on 08/13/2007 11:45 AM To me, there's absolutely no reason to not take a prestige class (with full spell progression) as soon as possible as a sorcerer. As you pointed out, they don't get any bonus feats or other class abilities after 1st level, so as long as the prestige class maintains normal spell progression, you might as well do that.
quoted for truth
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"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|  zenthrus Commander
 4836 Posts



 SLC, UT
 | | 08/13/2007 7:07 PM |
| Focused Specialist proves the problem with sorcerers. Wizards end up with virtually the same number of spells per day. Their selection is more limited than generalist/normal specialist wizards but not as limited as sorcerers.
What do sorcerers get in return? Heritage feats. Yippity-skippity  | | Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie? Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers Knight of the Large Dire Chicken Have/Want List Trade References | |
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