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wicked cool
Underboss
2019 Posts
    
 | | 08/21/2007 7:00 AM |
| | ok party comes across a evil magic item. Parties paladin wants to destroy it by hacking it. Item is a spear + +4 vs magic users with extra d10 damage vs magic users. its intellignet and would have compelled with a will save for one of the party member to attack the wizard. So the partys paladin goes to break the weapon. this where i the DM struggled with the rules. nobody had touched the weapon so the saves were not a factor but should it have been easy to a paladin doing 20 damage to break a weapon? what should have been its save. | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/21/2007 8:00 AM |
| I'm unsure how familiar you are with breaking objects, so here's a quick recap.
There are two choices to break an object: the first one is to try to break it on a single blow. For a spear i would ask the player how his PC intends to do it: if he doesn't handle the spear, he could presumably position it cantilever-style and jump on it or something. Then have the PC make a STR check against a break DC of the object. A normal spear would probably have a break DC of 10-15, assuming a wooden shaft which is usually the case. Because it is a magic item however, i would increase its break DC probably by about +4 on the basis of your description of the item.
The second option is to damage the object until it is broken. You then need to know how many hit points it has, what AC it has and what hardness it has. For a normal spear, its AC would probably be somewhere around 2, hardness 5 and 10 hit points. Note that if the attacker takes his time to hit the object (i.e. a single attack on it in a round), then he automatically hits, no need for an attack roll. Since the items is magic, i believe its hardness should be increased (you should verify this in the DMG), if i was required to wing it i would increase it by +4 on the basis of your item description. The damage dealt needs to overcome the hardness and then the remaining damage goes to the hit points of the spear.
In the end, all of the above is moot anyway if the paladin has all his time. If he wants to break the spear, he'll be able to do it by hacking away at the spear with his sword because the hardness of wood is not high enough (unless he has no STR bonus in which case he might not be able to overcome the hardness of the spear). In other words, unless you need to calculate rounds that it will take to destroy the spear, simply tell your player that he manages to destroy the object in the end, although he'll need to break a sweat to do it.
I know the general rules provided above are good, i'd double-check for magic items in the DMG or the SRD just to make sure on the questions of hardness and and break DC bonuses (i assume bonuses similar to the saving throw bonuses against spells).
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 08/21/2007 8:08 AM |
| For ease of reference. From the SRD:
DAMAGING MAGIC ITEMS
A magic item doesn’t need to make a saving throw unless it is unattended, it is specifically targeted by the effect, or its wielder rolls a natural 1 on his save. Magic items should always get a saving throw against spells that might deal damage to them— even against attacks from which a nonmagical item would normally get no chance to save. Magic items use the same saving throw bonus for all saves, no matter what the type (Fortitude, Reflex, or Will). A magic item’s saving throw bonus equals 2 + one-half its caster level (round down). The only exceptions to this are intelligent magic items, which make Will saves based on their own Wisdom scores.
Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as nonmagical items of the same sort. A damaged magic item continues to function, but if it is destroyed, all its magical power is lost.
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You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/21/2007 8:14 AM |
| Posted By nyjastul69 on 08/21/2007 8:08 AM
For ease of reference. From the SRD:
DAMAGING MAGIC ITEMS
[...]
Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as nonmagical items of the same sort. A damaged magic item continues to function, but if it is destroyed, all its magical power is lost.
Interesting. This would mean that the item gets no hardness or break DC bonus? I would instinctively add the saving throw bonus to those two, but it appears my impression is not supported by the rules.
Sky
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The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 08/21/2007 8:45 AM |
| | I thought it would affect those as well. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/21/2007 9:13 AM |
| Checking the sunder rules, there is no mention therein of anything special on magic weapons or armor. So i guess there is no break DC or hardness bonus on magic items as per the rules.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
2019 Posts
| | 08/21/2007 10:02 AM |
| | yeah seems to easy | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER
i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 08/21/2007 10:29 AM |
| I really thought magic bonuses added to hardnes and hit points, usually something like each +1 bonus is 1 point of hardness and 5 or 10 extra hp. I believe this is one of those things that may be listed only in a specific place, like the PHB.
I'm thinking the SRD description is for things like spells, where energy attacks affecting it like a nonmagical item isn't so bad. Not sure though. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 08/21/2007 10:34 AM |
| Posted By gss_000 on 08/21/2007 10:29 AM
I really thought magic bonuses added to hardnes and hit points, usually something like each +1 bonus is 1 point of hardness and 5 or 10 extra hp. I believe this is one of those things that may be listed only in a specific place, like the PHB.
I'm thinking the SRD description is for things like spells, where energy attacks affecting it like a nonmagical item isn't so bad. Not sure though.
I was pretty sure myself, but I'm at a loss to find it. I should know this because it came up in my game recently.
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You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 08/21/2007 10:44 AM |
| I found it. It's under Carrying, Movement, and Exploration. (SRD)
Magic Armor, Shields, and Weapons: Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield and +10 to the item’s hit points.
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You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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Oryan77
Sergeant
950 Posts
| | 08/21/2007 10:49 AM |
| Actually, it was a mistake in the DMG for determining a magic weapons hardness and HP.
If you look on page 214 of the DMG (or the SRD that was posted) it is in regards to a weapons nonmagical property (metal, wood, type of material). So you look up it's stats in the PHB for that. But a magic item also has it's own magical bonus for hardness & HP. This is where the error comes in.
On page 222 of the DMG (first paragraph) you'll see the text for a magic weapons hardness & HP bonus. It says that each +1 of a weapons enhancement bonus gives a 1 to the hardness & hp. This was an error...if you look up the same info under armor & shield it says a +2 bonus to hardness & +10 HP. You can download the DMG errata and it has the correction there:
Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon's or shield's hardness and +10 to its hit points.
I'm not sure if your spear is a +1 spear with a +4 bonus vs magic users. If it's a +1 spear, then it has Hardness 7 & 20 HP vs non magic users. If a magic user tries to destroy it (the paladin is a magic user if he can cast spells) then the spear would have a Hardness 13 & 50 HP when he tries to destroy it.
wood hardness = 5 + enhancement bonus (+1) = 2 which gives 7 Hardness
wood HP = 10 + enhancement bonus (+1) = +10 which gives 20 HP
or
wood hardness = 5 + enhancement bonus (+4) = 8 which gives 13 Hardness
wood HP = 10 + enhancement bonus (+4) = +40 which gives 50 HP
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Oryan77
Sergeant
950 Posts
| | 08/21/2007 11:00 AM |
| If it was a Weapon of Legacy item, the bonus is an additional +10 Hardness bonus and it's HP is an automatic 50 points unless it's enhancment bonus is high enough that it could grant it more than 50 points.
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/21/2007 1:53 PM |
| If it is an intelligent item i'd look to see if that doesn't confer additional equivalent bonuses. You have to take in everything that the item can do to evaluate its equivalent bonus, so if it has other qualities also you need to take them into account.
Sky | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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Skyscraper
Sergeant
659 Posts
Montreal
| | 08/21/2007 1:54 PM |
| | Oh and by the way thanks for the clarification on the bonus to magic items guys. | |
The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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Oryan77
Sergeant
950 Posts
| | 08/21/2007 4:40 PM |
| Posted By Skyscraper on 08/21/2007 1:53 PM
If it is an intelligent item i'd look to see if that doesn't confer additional equivalent bonuses. You have to take in everything that the item can do to evaluate its equivalent bonus, so if it has other qualities also you need to take them into account.
Sky I think the DMG says something about Intelligent item bonuses only coming into play for saving throws. It uses it's Will save instead of a a Fort save. I don't think it's intelligence property affects it's hardness & HP.
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