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Roranaki6149 Skirmisher
 2 Posts




 | | 09/21/2007 6:13 AM |
| I'm doing my Senior project on Dungeons and Dragons, and any help would be nice. Here are the main parts of the paper, and the questions that need answering: 1. History       A. Creators          1. Original Makers          2. Publishers       B. Current Criticisms          1. Promotes Violence          2. Promotes Devil Worship          3. Causes Drug Usage       C. Future          1. More Realistic          2. Religious Responses 2. Structure       A. Characters          1. Researching The Character          2. Making the Character          3. Playing the Character       B. Types of Play          1. Miniatures          2. Tabletop          3. Online       C. Playing          1. Game Materials          2. How to play          3. Length of Play 3. Misconceptions       A. Religious Misconceptions          1. All Gamers are Devil Worshipers          2. Promotes Witchcraft       B. Violence          1. Random Killings          2. Verbal Abuse          3. School Shootings       C. Emotional Distress          1. Suicide          2. Sacrifice          3. Isolation from fact and fiction
These are the 3 prongs for the project. Also i'm trying to tell the truth( because my teacher is very prejudice against D&D) It also needs to be the facts. Also I play D&D so don't give me grief. I'm not trying to bash D&D, just a project. I need to know more about the promoting violence, and drug usage, also more realistic. | | | |
| Zoons Underboss
 1067 Posts




 | | 09/21/2007 7:02 AM |
| What's your point?  You seem to be leading to a question, but you haven't asked it. Are you trying to flesh out the various sections of your paper? If so, what do you specifically want to know? There is a wealth of knowledge here on these boards (and others) but unless you are asking for specific facts, the opinions that are volunteered are often worth what you are paying for them.  Note: Tom Hanks starred in a movie called "Mazes and Monsters" which was based on D&D myths and stereotypes. It would make good research on misconceptions. | | Never teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time and it annoys the pig.
Champion of the Blink Dog. | |
|  Most Edumacated zenthrus Warlord
 5132 Posts



 SLC, UT
 | | 09/21/2007 9:57 AM |
| Also, what level of academics is this research project for? High school? Bachelors'? Masters'?
That's a more ambitious outline than I created for either of my B.A. theses which both turned out to be around 35 pages.
Also, with the misconceptions you're going to have a hard time finding any factual data regarding. Virtually all of the violence/emotional distress links are heresay and urban legend. | | Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie? Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers Knight of the Large Dire Chicken Have/Want List Trade References | |
| PaSquall Underboss
 1399 Posts




 | | 09/21/2007 10:26 AM |
| I'm a bit puzzled by your project because as Zenthrus said, a large part of the misconceptions/current criticism are only urban legends. In 25 years of gaming, I've NEVER EVER heard of D&D causing drug usage...
Reading your index, it seems to me that the subject you should use is videogames, not D&D.
If you really want to use D&D as a subject, maybe you should focus more on the social part of the game, how RPGs ended up being used in more serious areas (psychology, group interviews...), or maybe about the economics of it, how RPGs have evolved to CRPGs and now MMORPGs, non-fantasy RPGs, etc. | | Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON (Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
| GuJiaXian Sergeant
 661 Posts



 Roswell, GA
 | | 09/21/2007 10:49 AM |
| | Wow, a 35-page B.A. thesis? My wife's was over 200 pages! Out of curiosity, what was your subject? | | "Clearly a case of too many hunchbacks and not enough mad scientists..." | |
| Skyscraper Sergeant
 659 Posts



 Montreal
 | | 09/21/2007 11:01 AM |
| 3. Misconceptions A. Religious Misconceptions 1. All Gamers are Devil Worshipers 2. Promotes Witchcraft B. Violence 1. Random Killings 2. Verbal Abuse 3. School Shootings C. Emotional Distress 1. Suicide 2. Sacrifice 3. Isolation from fact and fiction
Are those misconceptions really existant nowadays? I have the impression that the rare people that would think that are the exception, and consequently i'm unsure how much this paper would actually represent "public misconceptions" over rare few individuals' misconceptions.
As a side note... sacrifice?!? Has there really been at one point a rumor that D&D players actually sacrificed living beings? Man, that's pretty far out! Let me know when that happens again!
Sky | | The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
|  Most Edumacated zenthrus Warlord
 5132 Posts



 SLC, UT
 | | 09/21/2007 4:33 PM |
| Posted By GuJiaXian on 09/21/2007 10:49 AM Wow, a 35-page B.A. thesis? My wife's was over 200 pages! Out of curiosity, what was your subject? 200-page thesis for a B.A. is a bit ambitious. Most of my colleagues working on their masters' and phds are shooting for around 200 pages (reasonable length for a critical analysis text). My first thesis was a comparative analysis of footbinding and infibulation looking at common (mis)perceptions about the causes (social, political) and parallels. My current thesis project is looking at frontier myths depicted in international film (focusing primarily on the mythology of samurai and cowboys). Either topic could be fleshed out into a book (indeed, both of my theses would serve as decent foundations for further development), but that's more inline with graduate-level work.
| | Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie? Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers Knight of the Large Dire Chicken Have/Want List Trade References | |
| nyjastul69 Commander
 2731 Posts



 Rhode Island
 | | ShadowLord XT Commander
 2646 Posts



 Plane of Shadow
 | | 09/22/2007 7:59 AM |
| | 200 pages? Wow, how do you talk about something so extensively? | | Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos. Champion of Half-Golems Knight of Golems "This world is made for love and peace" - Trigun "anyway..shadow..you've figured women out. KUDOS." - raye_kino16 | |
| Knight of Argenis Corim Danex Warlord
 6842 Posts



 West Valley City, Utah
 | | 09/22/2007 9:30 AM |
| What is strange is that I read this thread yesterday. As I was dreaming last night (the type of dream where I don't realize I am dreaming and I think it's actually happening). I read a news article on the internet about a bad incident involving some kids deciding to take their own lives because all of the persecution they were getting from playing D&D. The problem was, they were so attached to the game that they decided to make some kind of bizarre statement that they didn't want to give up the game by taking their lives.
I was intending to post a link to it on this thread.
What a wacky dream. Fortunately, it was just a dream. Even as I read about that in my dream, I was thinking, this is very strange. I'm thinking this thread triggered the dream. It sure is nice to be awake and realize that article wasn't real. | | "Look to God and live." Alma 37:47 Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|  Most Edumacated zenthrus Warlord
 5132 Posts



 SLC, UT
 | | 09/22/2007 10:10 AM |
| The kids must have been despondent over 4e  | | Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie? Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers Knight of the Large Dire Chicken Have/Want List Trade References | |
| ScruffyRanger Sergeant
 361 Posts



 Central Coast AUSTRALIA
 | | 09/23/2007 6:52 AM |
| D&D=The Terrorists
and...
lol@any of you doing drugs | | ScruffyRanger's Promo Page! Check it out here!
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| ScruffyRanger Sergeant
 361 Posts



 Central Coast AUSTRALIA
 | | 09/23/2007 8:20 AM |
| Actually... I shouldn't say stuff like that.
Roranaki6149, I looked over the structure of your paper and it seems pretty well thought out with the exception of the third section. Personally, I do not believe any misconceptions about D&D exsist any longer (well, they exist I guess, but no-one who matters takes them seriously). Fair enough back in the 80s when D&D was kinda mysterious and you had dead shits like Patricia Pulling, pulling peoples legs because she was a sub-standard parent (and had a face like a gangrenous blast a wound) but in 2007, I think people could generally give less than a toss OR a pull. LOL@her being dead btw. Like, forgive me for being cold and somewhat attractive, but that woman was a complete zero in anybody's book. So was her kid.
When we were imagining cutting the heads off imaginary monsters the Christians and their imaginary God got pretty fired up and I guess by such slewing of goblins you could consider D&D a promotion of violence... sort of like slaughtering muslims through out the Crusades and burning innocent women alive through out the Inquisitions. Kind of like wiping out entire peoples with small pox from heaven and giving the survivors nothing but a shadey casino. No one seems to upset about that? Unlike our God fearing buddies our battles were nothing more than fiction. Fact is, D&D players aren't the ones getting around killing people... I think you guys in the US call them republicans?
Most of the hate in the past has come from two types of people: Christians and Idiots. These can be (and often are) dual-class. Idiots can be forgiven. They spent much of their youth throwing mishapen balls to each other and much of their adult life putting gas into our cars, groceries into our bags and to be honest, I think it a little unfair to expect anything more from these people. Christians... well, they simply cannot be forgiven. For centuries they've force fed us their rubbish on matters ranging from abortion to xenophiba, drugs to same sex marriages and of course Dungeons & Dragons (cause they know so much about it!) They've never been right. Not once. And nobody can prove me wrong on this one either. I'm sure when they're done invading Iraq and molesting children, they'll be back for a stab at 4th Ed. You want a bit of a laugh and some ammo for your paper? Check out a document called 'A Christian response to Dungeons & Dragons'. If you can't locate it, let me know and i'll make it available for you.
So maybe D&D does promote a little violence. No biggie. Elvis promoted violence too, apparently. I think it too easy though, these days for people to simply look at D&D and say; "Pffft... D&D? That's nothing! My 9yr old gets about internet game servers blowing holes in the heads of obviously human targets. Sometime's he runs out of 7.62mm hollow point and has to use a crowbar to bash skulls in." People have bigger and better soap boxes to stand on these days.
This is rich. The Jews, bless their cotton socks, believe that anyone who has been exposed to Dungeons & Dragons has been permanantly detatched from reality. So much so in fact, within the IDF (Israeli Defence Force) by order, anyone with known exposure to Dungeons & Dragons is not to be given security clearance to certain areas within that military... due to their being detatched from reality I'm assuming. This accusation of detachment comes from a people who believe this guy, right, (get this, you'll love it) comes to the ocean side being persued by the baddest ass army in the land headed up by a seasoned, top quality general. This guy, realising he and his mates are at a dead-end, quickly draws on holy might and the waters magically part. As if that isn't enough to make you want to punch someone in the face, the general, leads his entire army blundering into the opened waters where they are swallowed, in said entirity. D&D players are detached from reality? Hmm... talk about the pot and the kettle :/
I'm not sure how much of a help this will be to you... been good typing it though. Some things have just been left unsaid far too long.
In regards to the information you were actually after (promoting violence, and drug usage) there isn't much of it around. Wonder why that is??? I'm beginning to think perhaps that Mr. Bush and his cronies may have been snorting a few lines, clearing out the tomb of horrors the night they decided to fly planes into the Trade Centre and slam a cruise missile into the Pentagon.
Damn... does any of that even make sense?? | | ScruffyRanger's Promo Page! Check it out here!
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| AnarionZelle Underboss
 1194 Posts



 USA
 | | 09/23/2007 11:17 AM |
| Here is a thread discussing religion and D&D:
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/63/postid/442950/view/topic/Default.aspx | | Completed Trades: Cha0tic g0od x2,IHawk x6,demagogue x5,jcnorris00,Sammael x3,Diomedes x3,Pan,Phoenix,samstephenson500,sage_raistlin,jai,simage,Lab Monkey x4,bugsy,Vulturedoodle,T-Bone,niolo,GreyOne,Kunimatyu,Mullins,ShivanWurm,berus316,Thenameless x4,Tysac,ksuvampire,Mama Cass,Metz,Zim x2,brucemc,Krush x5,Venport,RedneckDM,nycfarmkid,Corim Danex,Chad the DragonLordofAiur x2,Puggins,Izeya82 x2,Oryan77 x3,Zenako,Wayne,Vocenoctum1,Drakkengi,Username x2,lyus_sleyden,Cyberia,Star x2,xuthal x3,Qucalion of Celene x8,sam500 x2,Blob39,Keoki x2,hazel monday x3,emontedodger,Dargoth,Wraithborne,Anothermullen,Vrecknidj x4,Ghendar,Gunthar,shoesan,beurice,ckissee,kyrin,Khellrendros,GuJiaXian,Wolfgang,True_Blue,md3,stephengroy(MMT08),Teflon Jeff,GuJiaXian(MMT08),aries71,Count Dooku,Kat_Dawg33,oldben,TheChuck,hung4treason,relientKittenx2I I I I I I I I I I 0 I I I I I I I I I I Pending:
"This is what you want, this is what you get..." | |
|  Bert the Troll Commander
 3964 Posts



 Adelaide
 | | 09/23/2007 8:20 PM |
| Â I Â think you will be lucky if anyone actually does your topic and research for you.  Good luck with it though!
Try a google for B.A.D.D. which was an organisation started by a mom who believed her child's suicide was due to D&D over the numerous social problems the kid had. Her site IIRC had numerous anedocte pretending to be facts. BADD described D&D as "a fantasy role-playing game which uses demonology, witchcraft, voodoo, murder, rape, blasphemy, suicide, assassination, insanity, sex perversion, homosexuality, prostitution, satanic type rituals, gambling, barbarism, cannibalism, sadism, desecration, demon summoning, necromantics, divination and other teachings." (wikipedia). See http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html for counter augurment.
Also look up Jack Chick Tracts, famous for outlining the over the top biblical stand against it (dark dungeons tract) and for interest/fun look at many of the parodies of the track (eg dork dungeon). If you need an extreme example of religous nuttery view on D&D, look no further.
Tracey Hickman claims to be conservative type christian and is co author of dragon lance (of course) and has written about it from the pro okay side. Should be googlable. EG Â Ethics in Fantasy: Morality and D&D Part 1: That Evil Game!
Also look at satanic ritual abuse syndrome. (more people have died as result of exorcisms in the name of a god than playing D&D) {oops wrong link, it should of been: this }
Its worth mentioning that one or more of early dragon mags had articles about countering the prejudice of the past including the suicide links. They used maths to show that the percentage of teen suicides that hadn't played D&D was higher the teen age suicides that had played D&D. (what cant statistic prove). If iI get time, I'll look through them but doubt it.
Another thing worth noting is the name change of demons/devils showing that TSR did bow to the pressure of the vocal religious people standing against it. (and now teiflings, part demon/devil creatures are going to be core, yet brothels in FR were changed to feast halls to be more political correct which kinda shows less concern about public outrage for demons nowadays than sex).
At high school, I was able to play villains and vigilantes, marvel super heroes, and world war sims but not D&D for a couple of years.
The religious bias against D&D still exists, but the same people also are against harry potter and are taken much less seriously. Well not all of them, but I still think you will find more christians that say D&D is promoting anti christian ideas (=evil) than Harry Potter but that more because they haven't bothered to look at it themselves and half remember the controversy. It no longer seems a main stream religious sentiment against it here. (Adelaide, Australia, 'City of Churches')
Some parts of D&D attract more outrage too (eg book of vile darkness compared with history of the realms)
Conservapedia http://www.conservapedia.com/Dungeons_and_Dragons has snippets about it are is more balanced than I expected (though it states D&D's "dangers were summarized in the Dark Dungeons tract by controversial fundamentalist Christian author Jack Chick"  rather than saying 'supposed' dangers. One link of thier page seems quite good for the pro RPG stance: http://www.usask.ca/relst/jrpc/art9-roleplaying.html.
Of course you have already looked at wikipedia: Â http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_controversies
There is a Mormon written role play game too - (Dogs in the Vineyard - loosely based on the Mormon State of Desert in pre-statehood Utah by Lumpley Games) and , which if searched would possibly have links why the others are more eviler.
The Isrelli army stuff is quite a laugh :)
I just found http://www.theescapist.com/faq_encyclopedia.htm page which also details the  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruel_Doubt in which doctored players handbooks and D&D material was used to link thatÂ"Chris Pritchard allegedly masterminded the murder of his stepfather, Lieth Von Stein" and other links to bad examples of D&D in media. It also has sean sellers who I think was most famous case of trying to avoid punishment for his murders with the 'D&D made me do it" defence which has more recently shifted to "video games made me do it"
Though Rod Fereel tried similar, he seemed (imo of course) more loopy than tying to evade punishment.
There is very little hard data of the psychological good or bad of D&D. (Though role playing is oft used as a positive thing.) I would spend some time on the more definable positives of RPG's (creativity, numeracy, literacy, teamwork etc) and hammer home the lack of any substantial data about it being 'bad'.
Don't forget that it is the minority of christian (and other religious people) who still believe D&D = evil. |

| "Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
|  Bert the Troll Commander
 3964 Posts



 Adelaide
 | | 09/23/2007 8:26 PM |
| I think the most current critisms would be - cost of books - labour and production off shore - human righst issues in china/ (hong kong) - plastic use - environmental concerns | | "Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
| ScruffyRanger Sergeant
 361 Posts



 Central Coast AUSTRALIA
 | | 09/23/2007 10:40 PM |
| Posted By Bert the Troll on 09/23/2007 8:26 PM I think the most current critisms would be - cost of books - labour and production off shore - human righst issues in china/ (hong kong) - plastic use - environmental concerns Yeah, good call Bert. Your previous post was a good read also, thanks. I'm wondering, has anyone accused Harry Potter and his crew of Satanism? Hitlerism? Or promoted him as a cuase of mass murder, suicide, violence or drug abuse? | | ScruffyRanger's Promo Page! Check it out here!
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|  Bert the Troll Commander
 3964 Posts



 Adelaide
 | | 09/23/2007 11:06 PM |
| Posted By ScruffyRanger on 09/23/2007 10:40 PM Posted By Bert the Troll on 09/23/2007 8:26 PM I think the most current critisms would be - cost of books - labour and production off shore - human righst issues in china/ (hong kong) - plastic use - environmental concerns Yeah, good call Bert. Your previous post was a good read also, thanks. I'm wondering, has anyone accused Harry Potter and his crew of Satanism? Hitlerism? Or promoted him as a cuase of mass murder, suicide, violence or drug abuse? http://www.snopes.com/humor/iftrue/potter.asp (onion parady beingtaken as true)
There is always some who like to parade around cimenas with nice bright signs....
And sadly Google Results 1 - 10 of about 1,930,000 for harry potter satanism. (hehe one states: Vital information on Vampirism, Satanism, Paganis, and Harry Potter")
It can be hard to tell when parody meets fanatism though.
http://www.exposingsatanism.org/harrypotter.htm

And further on topic: Harry Potter and D&D Like Two Peas in a Pod?  which uses the similarities or Harry potter to D&D to 'prove' HP must be just as evil.
| | "Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
| ScruffyRanger Sergeant
 361 Posts



 Central Coast AUSTRALIA
 | | 09/24/2007 2:34 AM |
| | Berit Kjos has just bumped Operah Winfrey out of number 3 on my list and you KNOW what my list is for. | | ScruffyRanger's Promo Page! Check it out here!
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| Roranaki6149 Skirmisher
 2 Posts




 | | 09/24/2007 6:39 AM |
| ScruffyRanger: i dont believe in ANY of the Misconceptions that i put in the third section, but my teachers want some of the bad stuff for the game. So i put a few in it. (BTW republicans are the one killing off stuff.) but i guess thats why their called misconceptions.
Zenthrus: Highschool is what the papers for, but i want it to look very very good. Because My teachers say that whatever i write the paper on it will help me get in to collge. The paper itself only has to be 8 to 10 pages.
PaSquall:ÂI figured their would be drug usage because of all the othe stuff i found online(internet is a wonderful thing). But i wasnt positive about it.
Skyscraper:ÂI'm not worried about if thier existent now, i'm doing the project on the whole of D&D.
Bert The Troll:ÂI looked at the jack chick, and he the biggest idiot i've ever sceen in my life.
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| Skyscraper Sergeant
 659 Posts



 Montreal
 | | 09/24/2007 7:45 AM |
| One misconception that i see about D&D is that people believe that D&D players are all nerds that do nothing else but dream of elves and treasure and spells all day long. I've been on the receiving end of surprising comments in that line of thought. It is not untrue in some cases, but most players i play(ed) with appeared well grounded to me. However, there are some players that go a bit overboard sometimes and contribute to reinforce the stereotype.
I'd like to note that i play with a couple of European players, French players to be more precise. (I'm Canadian myself.) And that stereotype is apparently not as present in France than it is here. I.e. D&D doesn't suffer from bad press on the other side of the pond as much as it does here in the public eye, according to our comparative discussion.
Sky
| | The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
| Dordledum Commander
 3463 Posts



 Netherlands
 | | 09/24/2007 10:24 AM |
| Posted By Skyscraper on 09/24/2007 7:45 AM I'd like to note that i play with a couple of European players, French players to be more precise. (I'm Canadian myself.) And that stereotype is apparently not as present in France than it is here. I.e. D&D doesn't suffer from bad press on the other side of the pond as much as it does here in the public eye, according to our comparative discussion.
Sky
As an European myself, I know no-one who even gets the fact that D&D CAN get bad press like that. Devil-worshiping? Come on! It's a game!
But then again, I don't get it when you Americans censor stuff at all.
D. Â Â
| | Member of the Bearded Devils Champion of the Huge Spider (WotDQ 46/60), A New Umber Hulk (DoDe 57/60), and the Orog Fighter! | |
| Skyscraper Sergeant
 659 Posts



 Montreal
 | | 09/24/2007 10:30 AM |
| Posted By Dordledum on 09/24/2007 10:24 AM Posted By Skyscraper on 09/24/2007 7:45 AM I'd like to note that i play with a couple of European players, French players to be more precise. (I'm Canadian myself.) And that stereotype is apparently not as present in France than it is here. I.e. D&D doesn't suffer from bad press on the other side of the pond as much as it does here in the public eye, according to our comparative discussion.
Sky
As an European myself, I know no-one who even gets the fact that D&D CAN get bad press like that. Devil-worshiping? Come on! It's a game! But then again, I don't get it when you Americans censor stuff at all. D.   Just to be clear: the steretype i was referring to is the elf-speaking nerd, not the elements posted by the OP.
Sky
| | The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7908 Posts



 Sector 2814
 | | 09/24/2007 2:58 PM |
| Man, I love this thread. I read it daily. I, unfortunately, have little to add, and less time to do so even if I did.
But Kudos for tackling the subject. Of course, YMMV depending on location, but it's cool to see the different perspectives. | | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon "Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| PaSquall Underboss
 1399 Posts




 | | 09/25/2007 11:56 AM |
| Posted By Skyscraper on 09/24/2007 7:45 AM I'd like to note that i play with a couple of European players, French players to be more precise. (I'm Canadian myself.) And that stereotype is apparently not as present in France than it is here. Sky
True. In France, there were very few attacks against AD&D IIRC, the ultra-conservative catholics are far less influent here than in the USA. I just recall a few papers, and a TV show where a mother pretended his son fell into satanism or commited suicide because of AD&D (or something like that, I just recall a few bits of it, it was 15 or 20 years ago...) The kind of bad TV show there was at that time, which only wanted to create scandal... All this died quickly when was published a study, made by a police officer, which showed that AD&D had overall a good influence upon the young (promoting communication, group work, imagination, etc.) Of course it must be noted that even in its eighties heyday, AD&D was far less successful here than in the USA. It was mainly a highschool pupil/student hobby and most adults didn't know much about it, the only gripe parents had with it is that they couldn't understand why their sons spent hours and hours in their basement playing this strange game  I've never ever heard a complaint anymore since the nineties, when videogames took over and "scandal-makers" had a far better target (oh my god, they're shooting people with machine guns, with nazis and all this blood everywhere !!! ) The best anecdote is that last year, one of my friends' mother told me that at the time she prefered that her son played for hours in her house rather than spending his time in dubious bars or clubs... Now I'm thinking of him, I haven't seen him for many years, but I'm pretty certain I could get him back in the game quickly :-)
| | Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON (Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
| stephengroy Underboss
 1440 Posts



 Tempe AZ Beeyotch
 | | 09/25/2007 1:18 PM |
| What about all the positive aspects?
Fostering social interaction storytelling cooperation etc | | Waiting for Chainmail Equivalencies since 2005
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|  Most Edumacated zenthrus Warlord
 5132 Posts



 SLC, UT
 | | 09/25/2007 2:08 PM |
| Posted By stephengroy on 09/25/2007 1:18 PM What about all the positive aspects?
Fostering social interaction storytelling cooperation etc Not to mention stimulating the imagination, improving general reading skills, and getting people to spend less time in front of the idiot box/internet.
| | Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie? Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers Knight of the Large Dire Chicken Have/Want List Trade References | |
| stephengroy Underboss
 1440 Posts



 Tempe AZ Beeyotch
 | | 09/25/2007 4:13 PM |
| | and math skillZ | | Waiting for Chainmail Equivalencies since 2005
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| Knight of Argenis Corim Danex Warlord
 6842 Posts



 West Valley City, Utah
 | | 09/25/2007 5:13 PM |
| Posted By PaSquall on 09/25/2007 11:56 AM Posted By Skyscraper on 09/24/2007 7:45 AM I'd like to note that i play with a couple of European players, French players to be more precise. (I'm Canadian myself.) And that stereotype is apparently not as present in France than it is here. Sky
True. In France, there were very few attacks against AD&D IIRC, the ultra-conservative catholics are far less influent here than in the USA. I could be wrong, but I think that historically, protestants of various denominations have been more vocally against D&D over the years in the US than Catholics. I haven't actually overheard Catholics being against D&D, though I have heard some protestant groups say it was bad.
With anything like this, the US is so big that even though I have lived in five-six states, that doesn't mean my experiences capture everything. They are more perceptions than anything.
| | "Look to God and live." Alma 37:47 Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|  Bert the Troll Commander
 3964 Posts



 Adelaide
 | | 09/25/2007 6:17 PM |
| Posted By Corim Danex on 09/25/2007 5:13 PM Posted By PaSquall on 09/25/2007 11:56 AM Posted By Skyscraper on 09/24/2007 7:45 AM I'd like to note that i play with a couple of European players, French players to be more precise. (I'm Canadian myself.) And that stereotype is apparently not as present in France than it is here. Sky
True. In France, there were very few attacks against AD&D IIRC, the ultra-conservative catholics are far less influent here than in the USA. I could be wrong, but I think that historically, protestants of various denominations have been more vocally against D&D over the years in the US than Catholics. I haven't actually overheard Catholics being against D&D, though I have heard some protestant groups say it was bad. With anything like this, the US is so big that even though I have lived in five-six states, that doesn't mean my experiences capture everything. They are more perceptions than anything.
I dont think there has been an official statement from vacitian and in my limited experience it has been far more the Fundamentalist and other Evangelical Christians that have been vocal about banning D&D/Harry Potter/witchcraft, and other possible demonic influences.
(though catholic church still has an official exorcist so...)
~
I forget the http://www.religioustolerance.org/d_a_d.htm collection of essays which are good. It also lists some of the anti-RPG Christian groups.
While we are here though:
A really terrible page that I truely hope and belive is parody (terribile for content and design) states:
 Evil roleplaying games are sliding nude teenage girls on a greased pole straight to the FLAMES of HELL for ETERNAL TORMENT, Satan laughing aloud at this! Those who play these satanic games are actually WORSHIPPING SATAN! An INTERNATIONAL CONSPIRACY of roleplayers and satan worshippers promotes this evil hobby! The "Satan's little helper" picture to the right portrays an example of the BLASPHEMOUS which are used to LURE YOUNG MEN into these SATANIC games! The books, "rules", they say, are direct BLASPHEMY against our Holy Bible, and contain SATANIC RITES which persuade our children into SIN which is rewarded with DEATH and ETERNAL TORTURE in the FLAMES of HELL! It gets worse. Dont visit unless you can handle really awful written stuff. It also has this gem:
WASHING MAHINES WITH TRANSPARTENT LID AROUSE SINFUL THOUGHTS! As lingerie rotates around the washing machine, if you watch it, it arouses sexual thoughts in your mind! I think a lot of the D&D hate pages still existing are send ups like that page, still sending up what is a nearly dead issue.
~
Somewhere at home I have an essay or two of the postitives of RPGs which I will try n find and post. | | "Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
| ScruffyRanger Sergeant
 361 Posts



 Central Coast AUSTRALIA
 | | 09/25/2007 7:26 PM |
| | Religion is the world's most prolific mental illness. | | ScruffyRanger's Promo Page! Check it out here!
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|  Bert the Troll Commander
 3964 Posts



 Adelaide
 | | 09/25/2007 9:00 PM |
| Posted By ScruffyRanger on 09/25/2007 7:26 PM Religion is the world's most prolific mental illness.
Tha'ts pretty harsh and likley to end the discussion.
| | "Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
|  Bert the Troll Commander
 3964 Posts



 Adelaide
 | | 09/25/2007 9:05 PM |
| Chess: The Subtle SinOriginally from Elephanticity Never mind the well-addressed question Should a Christian play dungeons and dragons? A better question would be: Should Christians play chess? It has an obvious theme, in the traditional White against Black sides, good versus evil. The symbology of the good guys is obvious: King - Secular Leader, but with the Church close on his side (King's Bishop) Queen - All the King's secular forces combined into a powerful tool of his administration. Starts at his side, to show His dominance. Straight and Diagonal movement shows the ability to apply to all problems and situations. Bishop - liaison between Man and God, the administration of the House of the Lord on Earth. Keeps to one color, to show that the church has limitations in its applicability, BUT there are TWO Bishops, one for the Church, one for the Congregation, and between the two of them, they can get anywhere. Shows the transparent MYTH of Separation of Church and State. Knight - The Special Forces, able to attack from unseen angles, and retreat across obstacles. The 90-degree component seen by many to symbolize the duality of God's Might and Man's Will. Rook - Portrayed in most modern sets as a castle, examination of early structures leads many to conclude it is actually a church, historically. Either way usually exemplifies a building made of Stone, and "On this stone I shall build a church." Pawn - All the multitudes of Man, serving God best by stepping blindly forward. Of course, the Black side, the Evil, has the same components. Considering that the Dark One has his followers and his Bishops, we know what God has stated about False Religions: "As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." This makes it seem that someone playing chess, especially on the White Side, is acting out a morality play, attacking the forces of Darkness and crushing them under his heel. There lies the trick that ensnares millions of innocent souls every year. Evil has, mathematically, as much of a chance to win as Good. The only restriction between the colors is that White moves first. In reality, The Good side should have more power than the evil, for the Lord has said, regarding HIS believers: "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you." Unfortunately, the 'powers' given to the individual units of a chess set are evenly matched by their direct opponents. Anther problem is the power of the Queen. She is clearly portrayed as the King's wife, but granted greater power and maneuverability. She travels and works independently of the King, if nominally at his 'bidding.' This directly conflicts with many biblical verses, to wit: - "...and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
- "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."
- "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
- "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."
- "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."
- "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing."
- "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands."
A further heresy implicit in the play of Chess, is that of returning lost souls to play. If a simple pawn makes it unmolested to the final rank of the enemy's side, he can be transmuted to any other piece of the game. In this manner, lost pieces can be regained. The bible clearly shows that there is only one event of importance following an individual's death, and that is the judgement. After that, the soul is sent Heavenwards or dropped into the Lake of Fire. Reincarnation is the devil's idea. In addition to problems with the rules, certain conventions of game play are offensive to any True Christian that has seen the Truth. It is possible, if care is not taken, to move the Knight in such a manner that the outline of a Pentagram is described on the board, an incontrovertible sign of Satan. Most frighteningly, throughout most of the game, the mechanism of capturing a piece results in removal of the lost piece. In the final move, of every chess game, the King is not captured. Instead, the losing player lays his King down on the board, mimicking a ritualistic human sacrifice! Does it still sound like a simple 'Game?' For Further Consideration:Chess is so addictive that prisoners and isolated individuals have been known to carve their own sets out of random materials at hand. The forces of Darkness have managed to get introductory chess books into almost EVERY school library in the entire country! Our children are encouraged to take up the Devil's Pastime! They often play it in pairs, unsupervised by any responsible adults. Unlike more traditional games, like Monopoly or Yukon Solitaire, chess does not stop at a mere Winner/Loser concept. Implicit in each game of chess, at least one person has to die before the game can be over. And finally, in various times and places, people have been known to dress up in costumes and actually 'Act Out' a chess game! A game that encourages people to see themselves as carved and painted pieces of wood deserves at least a little more scrutiny! At the best, it's origins are lost in pagan antiquity, and not easily subjected to objective Christian scrutiny for unbiased analysis. At the worst, Satan eased it into place in anticipation of the reaction to AD&D. Think of that the next time you tell you children "Why don't you play chess, instead?" | | "Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
| ScruffyRanger Sergeant
 361 Posts



 Central Coast AUSTRALIA
 | | 09/26/2007 3:11 AM |
| Hey Bert0r...
Before I get into your Chess post; I'd like to point out regarding my previous post, that; If I talk to a God, let's say the Jesus type one, I'm perhaps enlightend? However, if I talk to Elivs I'm definately a nutter. Nahmsayin? | | ScruffyRanger's Promo Page! Check it out here!
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| ScruffyRanger Sergeant
 361 Posts



 Central Coast AUSTRALIA
 | | 09/26/2007 4:07 AM |
| Tah Bert0r! With that post, you proved my point. I've taken the liberty to compare his ideas about chess to those that are a little more realistic:
King: Social, territorial leader. Sometimes they're just symbolic too, look at our monarchy. Not always a leader of battle.
Queen: He's made a good observation. Though, realistcally in most cases through-out history, she's just been the King's chick. And yeah! You can sight cases where Queens have been uber powerful but not many.
Bishop: Another striking observation. A Bishop is a guy who looks after a church. I wonder how todays Bishops would fare on the battlefield?
Knight: Special forces? Not likely. Special forces are sneaky, deceptive and are rarely found in the pitched battle. Knights clambered down the field in most cases on a mount. History boasts many battles of Knights being eliminated by mud. That's right. Wet dirt beat your special forces.
Rook: Okay... this guy describes a Rook as a church." examination of early structures leads many to conclude it is actually a church, historically." I'm not entirely sure what early structures he's talking about? He says to check his references... but there are none. Perhaps he should have a quick flick through the 2nd Ed. Guide to Castles?
Pawn: Serving God by stepping forward blindly? Which God? And, is he sure that he's not just stepping forward because he's infantry? And thats what infantry do. FORWARD! AS ONE@!#!!
Look at this - "In reality, The Good side should have more power than the evil". Um, what reality is that exactly? Ask any victim of sexual assult what they think of that. Also, I know he said should but still doesn't make his statement any less ridiculous.
His notes on the Queen are equally as insane an irefferable as his suggestions of reality. Hang on, he does have a reference for this one... wait... it's the bible :|
"The bible clearly shows that there is only one event of importance following an individual's death, and that is the judgement. After that, the soul is sent Heavenwards or dropped into the Lake of Fire. Reincarnation is the devil's idea." Lake of fire, huh? Right.
He dribbles on to refer to chess as a simple game. I have three words for him: Deep frickin Blue.
Surely this Bert, is enough for you to reconsider you commets about my post regarding mental illness.
| | ScruffyRanger's Promo Page! Check it out here!
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| The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 13069 Posts



 Mud Lick, Kentucky
 | | 09/26/2007 6:58 AM |
| Posted By Zoons on 09/21/2007 7:02 AM Note: Tom Hanks starred in a movie called "Mazes and Monsters" which was based on D&D myths and stereotypes. It would make good research on misconceptions.
Same can be said of Jack Chick. With him you get misconceptions, the religious angle, and devil worship. | | WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :( I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220 G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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| The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 13069 Posts



 Mud Lick, Kentucky
 | | 09/26/2007 7:07 AM |
| Posted By ScruffyRanger on 09/25/2007 7:26 PM Religion is the world's most prolific mental illness. Nothing inherently wrong with religion. Like many things in life it's humans interpreting the religion that screw things up.
| | WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :( I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220 G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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| Knight of Argenis Corim Danex Warlord
 6842 Posts



 West Valley City, Utah
 | | 09/26/2007 10:25 AM |
| Posted By ScruffyRanger on 09/25/2007 7:26 PM Religion is the world's most prolific mental illness. Are you intentionally being highly offensive and trolling?
| | "Look to God and live." Alma 37:47 Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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