Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
    
 | | 02/05/2006 4:01 AM |
| I'd like to hear the thoughts from the community about good archer builds. I'm thinking of playing one in an upcoming game with IanB, Jgsugden, Sjofn, and others.
I like the new Scout class so I think I'm gonna give that a shot first. I don't like the Cleric BAB, but I think I'll probably mix in some Highland Stalker to get a better bab and still keep the skirmish going.
How high do you guys think I should go with Scout? And should I do Stalker, Fighter, Ranger, or Bow Initiate as my "ftr" component?
I know the feats I am shooting for are: precise shot, rapid shot, point blank shot, manyshot, improved manyshot, weapon focus | |
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Aravis
Underboss
1155 Posts
| | 02/05/2006 4:46 AM |
| | I like the Order of the Bow Iniate for a Ranger PrC. Its pretty beefy. | |
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Thenameless
Warlord
12483 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 02/05/2006 4:53 AM |
| | I used a fighter as my base class to build up the archer in our campaign. You need a lot of feats fast to become a good archer. An additional advantage of being a fighter is weapon specialization. Arrows don't do a lot of damage, so this feat is very useful for an archer. Good luck, and I hope you have fun with it, whatever you choose to do. | |
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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 02/05/2006 9:48 AM |
| | A player in my game is doing 3 levels of ranger and 2 of fighter to get to order of the bow. | | | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 02/05/2006 11:43 AM |
| It is hard not to do 2 or 4 levels of fighter. Two if you just want the two bonus feats that are really needed for a good archer and Four if you want to pick up Weapon Specialization.
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 02/05/2006 12:23 PM |
| At this point I like a straight ranger for an archery build. You can sprinkle with 2-4 levels of fighter if necessary. Other than Weapon Specialization, most of the feats you'll really want for an archery build are readily achievable as a ranger (high, wood or wild elf or a human). Plus you get all the skills and abilities and other good stuff that comes with the ranger class.
Be sure to check out the ranger spells in Complete Adventurer or the Spell Compendium. There are some amazing ones like Arrow Mind (1st level; immediate action spell to threaten with your bow and avoid AoO for ranged attacks while threatened). This spell really covers the combat archery ability of the OotBI (one of it's best abilities IMO). There are also other great spells like Swift Haste and others that a super useful for an archer type build.
I haven't dabbled with the scout yet, but I imagine it can be very effective and interesting. I'd love to hear feedback from those that have played a Scout.
As for Archer PrCs, I'm not that impressed:
-I think the OotBI is a cool PrC in theory, but the execution is suboptimal. Back in the 3e days, there were lots of effective builds mixing levels of rogue, fighter, deepwoods sniper and OotBI (Rogue3/Fighter4/OotBI7/DWS6 was a common one).
-I've always loved the theory of the Arcane Archer, but its primary ability is covered by a single casting of Greater Magic Weapon on your bow or ammunition. If you have a wizard of cleric that will do this for you, then Arcane Archer isn't a very good choice.
-I've never been impressed with the Craigtop Archer, but I can't seem to recall why.
-Of course there's still the uber-cheese Cleric Archer build. While its not nearly as great in 3.5e, it is still doable, especially with Divine Metamagic Persistant Spell Feat. Playing an Elf with Persistant Divine Power, Persistant Divine Favor, Greater Magic Weapon, the Elf and Time Domains, etc. all make for a very effective archer that can also do all the stuff a cleric can do as well. I've always found this build to be the absolute cheesiest thing ever, but it is indeed very effective.
In 3.5e, I haven't really seen an Archery PrC that made me want to play anything besides fighter or ranger or some combo of the two.
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stonefro2000
Sergeant
465 Posts
| | 02/05/2006 2:22 PM |
| | a ranger archer is a waste, go fighter+ bow Iniate. you will get the feats you need to do massive damage. pick them right and you could be doing 20-45 points of dammage in one attack with a bow. | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 02/05/2006 2:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by stonefro2000
a ranger archer is a waste, go fighter+ bow Iniate. you will get the feats you need to do massive damage. pick them right and you could be doing 20-45 points of dammage in one attack with a bow.
Why do you find a ranger archer to be a waste? Please elaborate. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
| | 02/05/2006 3:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by stonefro2000
a ranger archer is a waste, go fighter+ bow Iniate. you will get the feats you need to do massive damage. pick them right and you could be doing 20-45 points of dammage in one attack with a bow.
I fail to see how you get to do 20-45 points of damage in one attack unless you count manyshot as one attack. I do not think it's counted as one attack despite the fact that it takes only standard action (since you cannot do it multiple times when you're using the full attack).
What is the build that you're using ?
I can think of using composite bow to get strength bonus, weapon specialization (and then greater), point blank for +1, OBI precise for up to +5d8. Still not getting to minimum 20 damage. | |
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Zenako
Commander
3472 Posts
| | 02/05/2006 4:24 PM |
| Well let me see...in 3.0
Max strength Bow +4 damage
Maximum Enhancement bonuse, +5 Arrow, +5 Bow
Weapon Specializtion +2
Point blank +1
Bracers of Archery +1
Multi shot with 2 arrows for minimum of 1 each
you have 20 total using 3.0 rules. Without the adding of Bow and Arrow I am not sure how you do it. Unless you count on the elemental/special damage effects that are often enchanted into bows as well.
The Character in our game is also a Ranger with some favored enemy bonuses that kick in against giants and monstrous humanoids. That character can do some serious ass pricking against giants and ogres when mixing it up.... | |
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MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 02/05/2006 5:25 PM |
| Elemental damage is the way to go. [)]
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Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 02/05/2006 9:48 PM |
| The last ranged character I was running dipped into scout. I really wanted to give the class a whirl. However, this was after fighter 6/OotBI 2. I went the full 6 levels in Fighter to secure the feats that made him even more annoying: Manyshot and Improved Precise Shot. Rapid shot with no penalties? Sold!
The mixture of scout made the precise shot ability even worse. Move 10 feet, and it added another 1d6 of damage. The extra abilities were like gravy, and the skill points were certainly a big help. The interesting part was the realization you can pose as a secondary rogue in a pinch. My character did become the "go-to" character in many fights, but this really is the strength of a well-played ranged character.
However, I will admit this: Don't add scout if you're playing in a "power game" environment. The lower BAB and the time it takes to build up the Skirmish ability don't help the class very much. At least, this is what I've seen.
If you want to play an archer, play an elf. If you have access to Races of the Wild, try to get an elfcraft bow (I think that's the name). Read the description, and you'll see why. It's a physical version of the Arrow Mind spell (combined with the Close Combat Shot of the OotBI).
As for archer clerics, a good DM can prevent these from getting out of hand. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/05/2006 11:46 PM |
| If you have already decided on highland stalker and scout as the focus of the advancement, I'd want my progression to include 4 levels of scout and 10 levels of highland strider. That leaves 6 extra levels to plug into the 20 level progression.
I'd probably do it this way: Ranger 1 - 2, then Scout 1-4, then Highland Strider 1-10, followed up with ... uhhhh ... what does it matter? We'll all be dead by then. But if you live that long, I might consider a few levels of OotBI or finishing out on scout ...
I'd go with human for the race to get those early archer feats under your belt. | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 02/05/2006 11:59 PM |
| | Where is Highland Stalker from? | |
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Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 02/06/2006 12:23 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
Where is Highland Stalker from?
It should be a PrC in Complete Adventurer. | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 02/06/2006 3:35 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
I'd probably do it this way: Ranger 1 - 2, then Scout 1-4, then Highland Strider 1-10, followed up with ... uhhhh ... what does it matter? We'll all be dead by then. But if you live that long, I might consider a few levels of OotBI or finishing out on scout ...
Yeah, I'll plan him out to 20 in my head, have great plans, and I bet IanB will kill me within a few levels and that'll be that. | |
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Pale Rider
Underboss
1023 Posts
London, Ontario, Canada
| | 02/06/2006 11:23 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
Why do you find a ranger archer to be a waste? Please elaborate.
I'll field it (imo of course)!
As a fighter you only need make sure Dex is your highest stat (go elf for the 20 starting Dex if possible) and fighter gives you all the feats you need for your range attack at a much faster pace than the ranger. Add in the fact you can also be wearing full plate and have more hit points and you truly become a walking artillery piece. After 6 levels you might go into ranger (or scout or an apporpriate PrC most likely) to get some skill point bonuses without losing your BAB progression. One thing that has helped the ranger not suck so much is the abudence of 'swift action' spells in the Spell Compendium. I would still tack fighter any day over a ranger though. | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 02/06/2006 11:42 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Pale Rider
quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
Why do you find a ranger archer to be a waste? Please elaborate.
I'll field it (imo of course)!
As a fighter you only need make sure Dex is your highest stat (go elf for the 20 starting Dex if possible) and fighter gives you all the feats you need for your range attack at a much faster pace than the ranger. Add in the fact you can also be wearing full plate and have more hit points and you truly become a walking artillery piece. After 6 levels you might go into ranger (or scout or an apporpriate PrC most likely) to get some skill point bonuses without losing your BAB progression. One thing that has helped the ranger not suck so much is the abudence of 'swift action' spells in the Spell Compendium. I would still tack fighter any day over a ranger though.
In Response...
If you want to do anything but shoot your bow, then Ranger is the way to go. 6 + Int skill points and a great skill set as well as a special ability every level until 11th level. A good Reflex and Fort save and full BAB. Plus the favored enemy ability and the spells.
The only negs versus the fighter is the slower feat progression, lighter armor, no access to weapon specialization and lower average HP (d8 VS d10.)
I really think that a Ranger / Fighter combo is the best of all world for an archer. Start with a level of ranger first for the massive skill boost of course.
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 02/06/2006 12:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
In Response...
If you want to do anything but shoot your bow, then Ranger is the way to go. 6 + Int skill points and a great skill set as well as a special ability every level until 11th level. A good Reflex and Fort save and full BAB. Plus the favored enemy ability and the spells.
The only negs versus the fighter is the slower feat progression, lighter armor, no access to weapon specialization and lower average HP (d8 VS d10.)
I really think that a Ranger / Fighter combo is the best of all world for an archer. Start with a level of ranger first for the massive skill boost of course.
I agree. If you're in standard a 4 character party (fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric), a fighter-archer specialist leaves you lacking a front line beater. If you're in a 5 character party the fighter archer works fine, but I think the ranger brings more to the group and does very well as the party archer. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/06/2006 1:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Feathers
...Yeah, I'll plan him out to 20 in my head, have great plans, and I bet IanB will kill me within a few levels and that'll be that.
Ian isn't so bad ... just watch out for that wife of his.
"Hey, Mr. Paladin, are you going to just stand back and let the other people kill the ogre, or are you going to charge in blindly, get critically slammed on the AoO and die a horrible death?" [)] [NEVER TO BE FORGOTTEN ...]
FYI: This will be a 6 PC party. The breakdown will likely be 2 mages, Feathers' archer, and 3 other PCs who have yet to be decided (with me being the lug that decides last and fills that gap with whatever is 'needed' - which sounds like a front line fighter (paladin/monk), rogue (pure rogue or rogue/ranger/?) or cleric (battle cleric - designed for melee, healing an afterthought)). | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
| | 02/06/2006 1:43 PM |
| You may want to look at the peerless archer PRC in Forgotten realms book Silver Marches. It is 3.0, but it gives you some nice abilities. I dont have it in front of me, but i think it lets you make AOO's with your bow.
Also check Races of the Wild for some nice feats and the Elvencraft bow, which functions as a quarterstaff in close quarters.
As for class... i prefer fighter. There are so many archer feats out there. Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot (this is huge), Improved Rapid Shot, Weapon Specialization, weapon Focus, Improved Weapon Focus, Improved Weapon Specialization, Dodge, mobility, Shot on the Run, (cat remember name but a feat in Races of Wild that gives you a +4 bonus to your AC on AOO for firing in melee), Manyshot, Impoved Manyshot (does this exist?). That 14 listed there off the top of my head.
it you want a ranger flair to your archer, add some scout levels. You can get some bonus feats that work ok with an Archer build. If you go the Scout route, get manyshot ASAP. It combines well with the scout's Skirmish ability.
Also consider a Goliath... you can then use a Large Greatbow, which i believe does 2d6 damage. Plus the cragtop archer prestiege class is kinda neat with that ability that removes range incriments.
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/06/2006 2:30 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Feathers
quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
I'd probably do it this way: Ranger 1 - 2, then Scout 1-4, then Highland Strider 1-10, followed up with ... uhhhh ... what does it matter? We'll all be dead by then. But if you live that long, I might consider a few levels of OotBI or finishing out on scout ...
Yeah, I'll plan him out to 20 in my head, have great plans, and I bet IanB will kill me within a few levels and that'll be that.
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/06/2006 2:33 PM |
| As for my thoughts on the matter:
- Goliaths have a LA of +1 and are not available as starting PCs ;)
- Scout and OOBI have good synergy. I also want to say that scouts can cover the rogue skill niche, but I forget off the top of my head - do they get the fancy trapfinding?
- I agree with Lab Monkey that a straight ranger is a very strong way to go. The new spells in CA are sweet - the autocrit one is nasty. | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 02/06/2006 2:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
- Scout and OOBI have good synergy. I also want to say that scouts can cover the rogue skill niche, but I forget off the top of my head - do they get the fancy trapfinding?
Yes, they do. However, they do not get Disable Device as a class skill, so their ability to remove difficult traps is pretty limited.
One of my biggest problems with OotBI is the crap-tastic skill list and 2 skill points per level. Makes it hard to pick up too many levels of it if you're trying to play party rogue or ranger. If you're going the fighter route, you lose much less.
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BigBC
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 02/06/2006 4:01 PM |
|
You could try the following class that a friend of mine was using from the WOTC boards:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=174367
He was pretty happy with it and originally planned on going to Arcane Archer (he was half-elven) until he saw OotB Initiate. Unfortunately he's now dead (got caught next to a boulder and some trees and was taken down by some dire wolves before he could get out). Needless to say, archers should make sure they have an escape route just in case. [:)] | |
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proudft
Sneak
109 Posts
| | 02/06/2006 8:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
FYI: This will be a 6 PC party. The breakdown will likely be 2 mages, Feathers' archer, and 3 other PCs who have yet to be decided (with me being the lug that decides last and fills that gap with whatever is 'needed' - which sounds like a front line fighter (paladin/monk), rogue (pure rogue or rogue/ranger/?) or cleric (battle cleric - designed for melee, healing an afterthought)).
One of those potential mages is on the verge of crumbling and whining to try out the mountebank class, although it does seem kinda sub-par.
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Elucidus
Skirmisher
30 Posts
| | 02/07/2006 10:29 AM |
| | I played an archer in Jai's game about 2 years ago...wow its been that long... Anyway, I was a rogue & OOBI, I believe there was something else in there, but I don't recall. I only got ot play him a few times before the game ended, but he was fun to play and the rogue skills helped him act like a sniper at times. | |
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qstor
Sneak
136 Posts
| | 02/07/2006 3:16 PM |
| One of the other reasons apart from the archery feat track, I like a bunch of ranger levels for archers, is the spells like arrow mind and exacting shot. If you have a good Wisdom it helps your tracking too.
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
| | 02/08/2006 10:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
- Scout and OOBI have good synergy. I also want to say that scouts can cover the rogue skill niche, but I forget off the top of my head - do they get the fancy trapfinding?
Yes, they do. However, they do not get Disable Device as a class skill, so their ability to remove difficult traps is pretty limited.
One of my biggest problems with OotBI is the crap-tastic skill list and 2 skill points per level. Makes it hard to pick up too many levels of it if you're trying to play party rogue or ranger. If you're going the fighter route, you lose much less.
Check the complete Adventurer Errata. they added Disable Device to the Scout's Class Skills. | |
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Planchet
Underboss
1896 Posts
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 02/09/2006 1:40 AM |
| | I really like the Deep Woods Sniper from the 3.0 Masters of the Wild. Really upped the possible damage from a crit (added to the crit multiplier and increased the threat range.) | |
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Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 02/09/2006 4:17 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Planchet
I've seen Darius' archer in action, and it was sick. He did a really good job with that build.
hehe. Thanks! My build wasn't even pure min/max. It was made for ranged combat, but I didn't set up the abilities in a blatantly obvious min/max fashion. The character even had a 15 INT, and once we lost the mage NPC, he was the smartest character in the party.
I can say that character was fun as hell to RP. ... especially the one session when I was feeling punchy and got tired of getting a gang beating (actually, they only hit me 3 times) by a pack of lower level Knights of Neraka. I started trash talking on my turn (and only on my turn) while I kept filling those knights full of arrows. Ah, how I laughed! [}:)] | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 02/16/2006 1:50 AM |
| Thanks all for the advice.
The ranger seems like a good option, but I absolutely hate having to choose a class feature that might seriously never come into play; i.e. the favored enemy bonus. If I choose wrong, then that's a big chunk of the ranger benefit never being used.
Is it better to sacrifice the ftr BAB to get skirmish, which could net me avg +3 dmg against a wide range of opponents but only on a single atk after a 10ft+ move? Or is it better to get the ftr BAB but a more limited-use dmg bonus against a very narrow range of enemies? That's what I'm stuck on now.
As for spells. All I really need is 1 lvl of ranger and a boatload of wands. [:D] | |
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qstor
Sneak
136 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 11:28 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Feathers
Thanks all for the advice.
Is it better to sacrifice the ftr BAB to get skirmish, which could net me avg +3 dmg against a wide range of opponents but only on a single atk after a 10ft+ move? Or is it better to get the ftr BAB but a more limited-use dmg bonus against a very narrow range of enemies? That's what I'm stuck on now.
My friend and I had this discussion the other day. He likes scout for skirmish but I prefer the ftr/rgr BAB for multipe attacks.
One way to get "both" is to go ranger/ftr then Order of the Bow Initiate. Just my 2 coppers...
As to not picking the right favored enemy..talk to your DM..see what focus the campaign is going toward, that might help. Sometimes your dammed either way. Undead might be good choice...You'll always run into them :)
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 2:20 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nycfarmkid
Check the complete Adventurer Errata. they added Disable Device to the Scout's Class Skills.
Thanks for pointing this out; I'm not always the best about checking errata. That makes the Scout much better in my eyes. I'm not sure if I like it better than the ranger now or not. Both are darn good and I like that the scout is now an acceptable substitute for the Rogue (minus only the open locks skill which can be achieved a number of other ways).
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orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 5:37 AM |
| I thought about taking Scout for my Archer, but stayed with fighter. I can do much more damage now with my multiple attacks than I ever could with skirmish. In most dungean combats I simply stay behind the front line fighters and blast away (prcise shot & coordinated shot). If I do get based it is not a big deal. The character still has 60hp a longsword and a fighters BAB.
I have had a problem getting enought skill points however. I think I am going to fix that problem with a few levels of human paragon. I would get a better will save and adaptive learning. | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 03/20/2006 4:03 PM |
| | I will be playing a Catfolk Ranger focusing on the composite long bow soon and was also wondering what to do with it, to get to a great prestige Ranger class, the only decent one I found was, as many mentionned here, the Holy Order Of The Bow Initiate, but that would make me lose the few healing spells a Ranger gets. I thought for sure they would have made a PrC that allows Rangers to keep advancing as one. I took Point Blank Shot as my feat in case I get into melee and was wondering what to do with the very few feats and bonuses Rangers get. I am also thinking of taking a level in Rogue for the ranged Sneak Attack. Any help would be most welcomed... | |
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Champion Of Kaz the Minotaur Knight of ALL Draconians. Squire Of ALL Constructs
The number ONE fanatic Of Dread Guards ! I own 66 !!! And the GMR1 !!!
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 03/21/2006 4:24 AM |
| I ended up going 2 levels in ranger and added scout as my 3rd level.
The two classes are good and synergize well. Skirmish is quite useful at lower levels when you don't have multiple attacks anyway so you can always use the +1d6 dmg without sacrificing much.
My plan is to build up to getting greater manyshot so I can move 10+ ft and still fire off multiple arrows and get skirmish dmg on all of them. I can add 5 levels of scout, plus 2 levels of highland stalker for +3d6 skirmish dmg, go the rest with ranger and two fighter lvls for bonus feats. That would give me only net -2 to ftr bab (from the scout levels).
At lvl 13, I could fire 3 arrows with greater manyshot at +5/+5/+5 with +9d6 skirmish dmg. At level 18, that's 4 arrows at +8/+8/+8/+8 for an extra +12d6 dmg. And that's without having to restrictions of flanking. Granted, flanking is easy in a party, but I like being able to dictate my bonus dmg all on my own. Of course, I won't be able to hit anything with such low atk bonuses. [)]
But add in the usual weapon focus, dex bonus, magic, etc. and the atk bonus won't be too bad. | |
Champion of Neogi
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