Posted By Skyscraper on 12/07/2006 11:46 AM
Thanks for the comments everyone. Interesting reads, especially the posts by YRM_DM and nyjastul69.

What i should emphasize, is that i play in a really low-magic campaign. What i mean by this, is that the PCs, who are now 7th level, have one or two magic items each, plus a couple of masterwork items. (They have a few special abilities however, and i increase the six core abilities at every other level instead of every four levels.) Thus, the long list of magic items suggested by YRM_DM including a dozen items or so, is not really the kind of thing that my PCs will have, let alone a NPC.

My NPCs usually don't have a single magic item if they're under 6th level, and a single magic item for levels 6 and above.

Also, i only play with the core books, no Vow of Poverty or other feats from splat books.

In view of this, can a monk, who appears to rely importantly on magic to have a decent AC, still compete with other classes?

Sky

Posted By YRM_DM on 12/07/2006 11:20 AM

My monk has had the highest AC in the party since Level 1, and continues to have an unbuffed AC in the mid 30s. Buffed, he gets into the mid 40s, and it could be worse except my PC has less than the recommended wealth per level.

I also have no trouble hitting foes because I recognized that, with a large number of attacks, every +1 you can add is critical.

Monks benefit the most from a large variety of lower cost magic items. They don't need a 50k Sword at high levels.

Key Monk items to gain over time.
- Ring of Protection
- Ring of Force Shield
- Bracers of Armor
- Periapt of Wisdom (better than Natural Armor or Mighty Fists for several reasons)
- Monk's Belt
- Boots of Speed
- Circlet of Persuasion (helps with Monk's diplomacy if CHA wasn't a big stat)
- Cloak of Resistance
- Bracers of Dexterity
- Eyes of the Eagle
- Javalins

Monks get AC from more sources than any other PC. They should focus on STR, DEX, and WIS as key stats. CON, INT, and CHA can all be lower, but try for at least average numbers if possible.

The Monk has virtually no weaknesses, except for to auto damage and spells that bypass SR without requiring a save (not many spells do this).

+23/+23/+23/+18/+13/+23 (haste) for 4d8+13 damage each time... and it bypasses Adamantine DR.


- My touch AC is 27, so even wizards shooting rays need a good roll.
- The first arrow that comes at me each round is auto-deflected.
- AC is usually around 40, so the fewer HP behind that AC don't get touched as often.

Posted By Skyscraper on 12/07/2006 11:57 AM
Thanks IanB, interesting points.

What i see however are monks with ACs in the 13-15 range, as opposed to 18-21 for fighters. I don't want to compare to fighters as i understand that they're not supposed to be as good as they are, but still... 13-15 is but a tad higher than the wizards.

Sky

Posted By IanB on 12/07/2006 11:46 AM
VoP is broken, but it isn't particularly broken for monks, partly because monks are a little underpowered in general.

It is COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTROL BROKEN for druids, however.

My experience with monks is that they're pretty weak, but typically our games do not allow 100% item customization by PCs except in fairly unusual circumstances. We tend to have to rely more on found items, etc.

Posted By YRM_DM on 12/07/2006 12:11 PM

[snip]

Are you remembering to add the Monk's WIS bonus to his AC?

Worst case, at level 1, the Monk has an AC of 14.  I'd consider bumping two of those stats to 15 and using them for your first two stat increases.

Over time, at higher levels, it should be easier to get some lower cost magical gear, and the Monk can stack a lot of gear into AC.  Monk's gain a point of AC every few levels anyway, while the fighters will level off since you aren't giving them a chance to improve their armor to magic armor.

(if you do hand out magic armor, consider handing out Bracers of AC before you give away Plate Mail +1)

Posted By YRM_DM on 12/07/2006 11:55 AM

If you are, say, at 50%, you can look at that and I still think the Monk is balanced.

Perhaps you are of the mindset that you don't hand out many magic items, but, the ones you do hand out are a bit better. For example, instead of a +1 sword, you hand out a +1 Frost sword that offers Resist Cold at X caster level once a day.

If that is the case, the monk can keep pace at low cost with multiple low cost items.

When you do decide to change the recommended wealth per level, hopefully, you've done so after completing several campaigns using the RWPL guidelines so that you are familiar with all the game balance issues that changing the wealth will affect.

I understand you may just be making this change for flavor, but, it probably has the lowest impact on spellcasting classes that don't require lots of money to prepare spells (a wizard actually has considerable costs in upkeeping a spell book).

If you are really worried about it, I'd suggest making the first "big" magic item that the Monk gets be a Monk's belt or good Periapt. Such an item impacts multiple areas for a monk and makes up for not having as many items.

Posted By YRM_DM on 12/07/2006 12:44 PM
You make good points Sky... I'm certainly not trying to say that you should only run the game a certain way. I was suggesting that, once you have run a campaign "by the book" it's easier to make those intuitive leaps later, but stay balanced. Not because you're stupid or wrong, but just because you see more into how the guys at WotC were trying to balance the game.

Posted By YRM_DM on 12/07/2006 12:48 PM
Doesn't Wraithstrike prevent the adding of the STR bonus to damage?

If not, it probably should, and then it'd be ok for Dragons.

Posted By IanB on 12/07/2006 1:32 PM
On the topic of flurry, even when it has the -2 you should almost always use it when you can. There are not very many opponent ACs where your expected damage goes down when you flurry.

Posted By gss_000 on 12/07/2006 8:08 PM

I don't feel that is true.  With cleric BAB, at first level you have a slim chance of hitting anything with even a low AC.  The only time I'd use it is with Bless and/or flanking to give me a shot at hitting.  Otherwise, you are wasting attacks.

Posted By gss_000 on 12/08/2006 6:12 PM
I was thinking about this kind of math, but hadn't done the numbers. Thanks.

First, I think the AC 10 rarely happens, so all it is is a teaching exercise. A very good one, but still.

Second, now that I think about it, I'm looking at it in a different manner. Since each roll is independant of the last, in the AC 15 case, you drop from 40% down to 30% to make each hit. Still, in 5 rounds of combat, the difference is one more hit (2 vs 3). In 3 rounds, a more likely combat, it is 1.2 vs 1.8 hits. When my odds are that poor, and the gains are minimum (essentially an extra hit every other combat), I'd rather save the frustration of missing more often and improve my odds or work on other strategies to improve other people's odds who can do a lot more damage than the monk.

Personally, I like to work on my numbers to hit and not worry to much on dps. That is just me.

You are right, it is a different matter when the penalties go down, but at that time your percentages go up with magic and items.

Posted By gss_000 on 12/08/2006 8:38 PM
I still don't think so. By that logic, if I flip a coin twice I have a 100% chance of it landing on heads. Adding attacks does not improve your chances, that's not how it works. It just gives you more opportunities to make it, but your chances are lower. In the AC 15 case you still only have a 30% chance even if you roll it twice.

As for the crit, you still have a 1/20 chance, again more chances, but your odds of confirming are worse.