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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
    
 | | 01/10/2006 6:35 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
Yes, it requires more preparation. Is is your position that a cleric can never prepare for combat?
No, it's my point that you're making another assumption in favor of your melee cleric: that there's time to buff. Sometimes there is, sure ... but while your cleric casts bull's strength, the barbarian can drink a potion of bull's strength. (For that matter, for maximum damage output, your cleric should be casting bull's strength on the barbarian.)
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It takes longer to prepare than a barbarian - but a party that plans can make preparations in many instances.
And in many instances, the party can't prepare. But, to make your example work, it has to be one of those instances where there's plenty of buff-time.
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The cleric has one 18 in strength ... just like the barbarian. I had them both focus on strength ... a logical step for a war cleric.
Didn't you say in an earlier post that the war cleric would focus equally on Strength and Wisdom? So that's two 18s.
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Did I assume Divine Might was the third cleric feats, for instance? (Another +2 to +3)
And now the cleric has an 18 Str, and 18 Wis, and a 14 or 16 Charisma?!
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Greatsword is not the only two handed weapon out there ... so take your pick.
None as efficient as a greatsword, damage-wise. (And I can't think of any War domain gods with two-handed favored weapons. Not to say there aren't any ... FR has thousands of gods. Might as well assume one does.)
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Even if you use a one handed weapon in two hands, you're only sacrificing a few points of damage on average.
A few points of damage is not trivial. The difference between 1d8+4 and 1d12+8 is only 6.5 on average.
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[The barbarian's second attack at +8.]
It was balanced out by the other spells of the cleric. [)]
Sure. What's another round or two?
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Additionally, if you make two attacks, you'll likely be reducing the amount of power attack you use in an optimal power attack situation. Under optimal use of power attack, getting a second attack at -5 does not double your average damage output ...
No, it doesn't double it, but it increases it significantly. As a very conservative estimate, that second attack is going to increase the barbarian's damage output by at least 30 to 40 percent.
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So, when the barbarian begins a round basing an enemy, he gets an extra attack which may add some extra damage ... but that is far from guaranteed.
No, on average it is guaranteed. That's what "on average" means: the times when the second attack misses for no damage are combined with the times when it hits for massive damage ... for a net "on average" increase. Guaranteed.
But heck, why not give the cleric a potion of haste?
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You can try to nickel and dime it down from my example, but if you can't get it well above d8+4 ... you're not trying.
Of course I could get the damage above 1d8+4 ... but not without making assumption after assumption about having perfect in-game circumstances. Meanwhile, the barbarian and fighter are just whuppin' ass. (Because it's what they do. Better than anybody.)
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I'll admit that the barbarian is usually going to do a little more damage. But, that difference doesn't need to be d8+4 vs d12+8. It can easily be d10+7 vs d12+8.
And you're still discounting that second attack.
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And, as the cleric has better AC and more flexibility, it is clear he can be effective on the front lines.
I never said he couldn't be effective on the front lines. If I thought that, I wouldn't be playing a melee cleric. What I said, and continue to say, is that a melee cleric is a strictly second-rate combatant, and feats like Power Attack and Cleave are terrible choices for a cleric, from a power standpoint. Even a melee cleric.
Oh, and the cleric might have a slightly higher AC. (Maybe. Does he have mithral full plate and a Dex of 16?) But he's going to be way behind in HP. (Unless he has the Con of 18, too.)
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That is all I have to say on the subject. Seriously. I know I can make a front line melee fighting cleric that will be fun and competitive throughout the levels. If you don't think it can be done ... that is ok with me.
Who said anything about "fun"? I never said you couldn't make a fun melee cleric. I play one. And I don't know what you even mean by "competitive." If you mean "competitive with fighters and barbarians at fighting prowess," well, no, you can't. Not without arbitrarily warping the "contest" to vastly favor the cleric.
Anyway, enough of this. Hope I haven't scared anybody off from playing a cleric! | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/10/2006 12:08 PM |
| Thank you for your comments, Wayne. We disagree. It remains your position that a melee cleric can't get beyond d8+4. It remains my position that is low, and that clerics can be fine front line fighters. I've said nothing to change your mind, and you've said nothign that changes mine.
I think it is time to let this die. | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 01/10/2006 12:11 PM |
| Thanks Wayne and does anyone know about the Minotaur natural saves and class gained saves
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