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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
    
 | | 12/17/2005 1:19 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Benimoto
Wraithstrike I agree with you. It just looks too good. "Let's take Brilliant Blade, a 6th level spell and make it a swift action. Then let's make it second level!" Whee.
Damn straight. I've never seen anything scarier than a HastedEldritch Knight with a Greatsword activating this abomination. Full power attack with complete impunity, since touch ACs seem to drop as CR goes up. Even the last iteritive attacks are pretty much "don't roll a one". | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/17/2005 2:16 AM |
| It should probably be pointed out that for the most part Eldritch Knight builds are underpowered, so I'm not sure that wraithstrike is the WORST thing ever. It still looks extremely strong though.
A thing to remember about Mass Snake's Swiftness - if a character is in position to take an attack when you cast MSS, he's also in position to get the extra attack from haste on his next turn if you cast that instead. Still feel overpowered? | |
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 12/17/2005 2:30 AM |
| | Hmmm...wraithstrike. It's range is personal, so it won't effect a mainline fighter. Your average sorcerer/wizard may still have a hard time hitting (depending on foe). Your average sor/wiz won't have power attack. I don't think that this is all that powerful. It may be useful for an eldritch knight with a greatsword, but a pure sor/wiz won't benefit all that much from it. | |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 12/17/2005 9:14 AM |
| | No, I definitely don't think wraithstrike is overpowered on a sorcerer. It's when a barbarian decides that it's worth losing 2 base attack (and some HP) to become a Rage Mage that wraithstrike goes over the top. Just flipping through the monster manual, virutally all the creatures have a touch AC of no more than 12. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 12/17/2005 10:18 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
...A thing to remember about Mass Snake's Swiftness - if a character is in position to take an attack when you cast MSS, he's also in position to get the extra attack from haste on his next turn if you cast that instead. Still feel overpowered?
Yes. Think DDM for a minute. Why do we think that spells like the transposition spells are so powerful? Why is GMA so powerful? Because they let you pile on more damage *earlier*.
MSS can allow you to pile on extra damage a lot faster than haste spells - and it can allow you to pile on a lot of damage, all at once.
Also SS or MSS strikes count against the extra attacks for the current round, whether the attacker has already gone, or has yet to go. As such, it allows creatures to take advantage of an extra attack oppunity that would otherwise not be possible. So, in a party of melee fighters, a MSS will still benefit a party under haste that charges up to the foe in the first round ...
When you're fighting a hill giant, which is better: 80 damage ot the giant before it attacks and 160 damage after, or 120 damage to it before it attacks?
Also, think of the poor rogues, Man! MSS allows them to get a bunch of attacks against flat-footed foes. I know that all the bad guy rogues in my campaign world just put out a 'Help wanted - young evil druids' sign in the town square.
Oh ... I just checked the PHB definition of allies. It specifically includes you! So, the druid can move in, cast defensively, and get the attack too ... so, it gets a butload of damage to add to the equation, too.
I think there are better ways to get similar effects: Slapping hands, and haste being two great examples.
Some more overpowered spells in this tome:
Bite of the X spells are very strong. Imagine Bite of the Werebear on a druid wildshaped into a Dire Bear with animal growth (Strength 55 - even without the animal growth, you're stronger than a Tarrasque) - "I attack at +29 (2d6+22), +29 (2d6+22), +24 (3d8+11) ..."(unless you want to factor in nature's favor, greater magic fang, or any of the other damage increasers still available to the druid ...)
Let's talk about transposition spells ... summon monster 1 + transposition = poor man's/rich man's dimension door. Heck, use a flying familiar and you don't need the summon monster 1. And you don't even need to be near the allies you want to move around! "My bat flys over the head of the enemy spell-caster in the back ranks ... and then I cast benign transposition on the bat and the dwarven fighter (who performs a jump check to avoid taking damage from the fall)".
Backbiter is a spell that people really underestimate, especially if the enemy is a big creature with one natural attack. Similarly - backlash can be a bit strong, although it is a much more reasonable level and the save is usually going to be fairly reasonable for a spellcaster.
Aid, Mass is very strong. A few castings of this spell could turn a band of warrior 1s into a nearly invincible assault force against a city. Spells that effect an unlimited number of allies are bad ... especially in the hands of the bad guys.
Blood frenzy isn't overpowered, but reading it did make me imagine a bunch of barbarians and a bunch of rogues fighting over who gets to hire the mercenary druids of the land ...
Body of the Sun - 5d4 damage in a 5' radius. I suggest the DM focus on the last sentence and not allow this spell to damage unattended objects ...
Diamondsteel gets ridiculously good at Epic levels, but many things break down at epic levels.
Dimension Door (Greater) is something that scares me. DMs should be very cautious in using this spell, as it can be a very powerful thing in the hands of certain spellcasting monsters (Dragons).
I think Distract is ...
Enhance Wildshape is a bit strong in some situations. A druid can gain regeneration when becoming a tendriculous, for instance ... which is a very strong ability to allow to PCs.
And those are just spells that I noticed while thumbing through the first 1/3 of the book.
You need to beware when allowing this book. It has some spells that are questionable in terms of balance. | |
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 1:52 AM |
| hmmm.....I haven't really looked at the druid spells in the book(we don't have one), but some of them SEEM really good. Bite of the werebear gives huge bonuses, but it describes the caster as becoming a half bear creature...I don't know if I would allow this to stack with wildshape bonuses from another form. It is a 6th level druid spell, so the character has to be at least 11th level to cast it. I personally don't think it is that bad. I DO think that it should take away spell casting ability to keep it in line with tenser's transformation.
Body of the sun isn't too bad. For 5d4 you need to be a 10th level caster, and it is all elemental damage, so it is easily negated.
Diamondsteel...meh...we're actually using alternate armour rules in our campaign right now, and DR isn't really that good. It's great against low damage opponents/finesse fighters, but spells and greatswords still hurt [:D]
Greater dimension door...well...yeah. We've had a ban on teleport/dimension door spells in our game for quite a while. I think this one is open for abuse, but an opponent with dispel magic should be able to take care of it.
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Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 3:48 AM |
| | I don't agree with most of those as really being overpowered (especially mass aid, that spell isn't even really in the "good" category I don't think), but I think you're right on bite of the werebear. The "spirit" of the spell would seem to indicate that it really shouldn't stack with wildshape, but it sure doesn't say it doesn't. I think that would be a good house rule for all of those spells. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 12/18/2005 12:47 PM |
| Some of these spells are only overpowered in a limited arena ... and mass aid is one of those spells. In a situation where it is allowed to effect too many creatures, it can be devastating.
If creatures can be no more than 30 feet apart, it means that (for medium or small creatures), they must fit in the area of a 15' radius spell. That would be roughly 24 (medium or small) creatures. The average benefit the spell can offer at the minimum caster level is d8+5 temporary hit points, or about 10 hit points. That is 240 temporary hit points from 1 3rd level spell. Of course, if you factor in flying creatures, the number of permissible creatures quadruples, and we're talking about roughly 1000 bonus hit points.
People might compare this spell to fireball, by pointing out that a fireball can deliver far more damage due to more targets. While this is true, it is only true if your enemies line up perfectly for you. That does happen, but it is far easier to get creatures to line up for a benficial spell that grants bonus hit points than it is to get them to line up for a fireball (unless you have a real good bluff role).
Is this a very narrow area? Yes. However, if you look at it carefully, there is huge room for abuse in this narrow avenue. It is an area that could have been closed with a '1 creature per level' type limitation ... without diminishing the use of the spell to a party of PCs (by too much). Instead, we have a situation where a 3rd level orc cleric could more than double the power of a small army of 20 average orcs.
Narrow, but abuseable. | |
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| Professional Fan of DDM
Shoe
Sergeant
804 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 7:53 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by B
Ps. Hey Shoe, any comment on the sarcophagus of stone spell?
The "stat block" section of that spell fell out somewhere along the line. It's already been noticed and will be part of the errata. It may have already been posted on our messageboards somewhere -- I have the text on my work 'puter, I should be able to post it if I get a chance this week.
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 11:14 PM |
| | Excellent! Thanks Shoe [:D] | |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 2:05 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
Some of these spells are only overpowered in a limited arena ... and mass aid is one of those spells. In a situation where it is allowed to effect too many creatures, it can be devastating.
If creatures can be no more than 30 feet apart, it means that (for medium or small creatures), they must fit in the area of a 15' radius spell. That would be roughly 24 (medium or small) creatures. The average benefit the spell can offer at the minimum caster level is d8+5 temporary hit points, or about 10 hit points. That is 240 temporary hit points from 1 3rd level spell. Of course, if you factor in flying creatures, the number of permissible creatures quadruples, and we're talking about roughly 1000 bonus hit points.
People might compare this spell to fireball, by pointing out that a fireball can deliver far more damage due to more targets. While this is true, it is only true if your enemies line up perfectly for you. That does happen, but it is far easier to get creatures to line up for a benficial spell that grants bonus hit points than it is to get them to line up for a fireball (unless you have a real good bluff role).
Is this a very narrow area? Yes. However, if you look at it carefully, there is huge room for abuse in this narrow avenue. It is an area that could have been closed with a '1 creature per level' type limitation ... without diminishing the use of the spell to a party of PCs (by too much). Instead, we have a situation where a 3rd level orc cleric could more than double the power of a small army of 20 average orcs.
Narrow, but abuseable.
More than double the HPs, not double the power. Their damage output will hardly change, and a single fireball will still wipe them out. I really think 'abuse' is waaaaay too strong a word. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 12/19/2005 2:47 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
More than double the HPs, not double the power. Their damage output will hardly change, and a single fireball will still wipe them out. I really think 'abuse' is waaaaay too strong a word.
Put it this way:
An orc from the MM is CR 1/2. It has 5 hps, an AB of +4, average damage of 9, and an AC of 13.
Under this spell (at 5th level) it has ~15 hps, an AB of +5, average damage 9 and an AC of 13.
A gnoll is CR 1. It has 11 hps, an AB of +3, average damage of ~6 and an AC of 15. I'd say our aided orc is definitely tougher than the gnoll.
A bugbear is CR 2. It has 16 hps, an AB of +5, average damage of ~7 and an AC of 17. This is a bit tougher than the aided orc, but I'd say the orc (with the better AB and better damage) is closer to the bugbear than the gnoll in terms of power.
This spell turns CR 1/2 creatures into CR 2 creatures.
A 6-7th level party can handle a CR 5 plus 20 CR 1/2 creatures. That is supposed to be a tough battle, but very winnable. A 6-7th level party will be destroyed by most battles in which they face a CR 5 monster plus 20 CR 2 creatures.
Can a single 5 - 7 hd fireball still wipe out the aided orcs? Yes ... if they fail the save. Of course, if the orcs are under the command of a wise leader (perhaps a cleric capable of casting mass aid), then they likely won't be lined up for a mass fireball.
If you still don't believe me, try mocking up a 4 PC 6th level party (28 point buy) (fighter type, rogue type, cleric type, mage type). Then mock up 20 stock orcs, and a 5th level orc cleric. Use the drow outpost map. Have the PCs defend the outpost from the orcs (which are coming from the starting area opposite the outpost).
Make two versions of the orc cleric. In one, he'll have mass aid. In the other, he'll have searing light.
Then, mock through the battle with wise tactics by the orcs (and PCs) a few times, alternating between the mass aid and searing light versions of the cleric. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 4:31 AM |
| quote:
Can a single 5 - 7 hd fireball still wipe out the aided orcs? Yes ... if they fail the save. Of course, if the orcs are under the command of a wise leader (perhaps a cleric capable of casting mass aid), then they likely won't be lined up for a mass fireball.
So... if they're not lined up for a fireball, how are they getting the aid spell? [:p]
I really think it is a trivial spell. Adding 10 hp to a regular orc isn't really going to stop it from being killed in one hit either way. Your average 6th level fighter will still cleave his way through just fine, leaving the +1 to hit as the only real advantage. The cleric would probably be better off casting prayer.
Anyway, setting up straw man situations like this doesn't really prove anything one way or the other. There's no way for players to abuse this spell, and anything else is always completely at the DM's discretion. You don't need mass aid to set up a bad encounter if you want to just screw with people, you can do that fine with the PHB spells. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 12/19/2005 12:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
So... if they're not lined up for a fireball, how are they getting the aid spell? [:p]
I really think it is a trivial spell. Adding 10 hp to a regular orc isn't really going to stop it from being killed in one hit either way. Your average 6th level fighter will still cleave his way through just fine, leaving the +1 to hit as the only real advantage. The cleric would probably be better off casting prayer.
Anyway, setting up straw man situations like this doesn't really prove anything one way or the other. There's no way for players to abuse this spell, and anything else is always completely at the DM's discretion. You don't need mass aid to set up a bad encounter if you want to just screw with people, you can do that fine with the PHB spells.
Fireball: instantaneous. Mass aid: duration. You can cast mass aid where the enemy spellcasters can't see, and then let them walk out where it is dangerous. That is the reason why it is so easy to effect so many more targets.
So, the difference between CR 1/2 and CR 2 is trivial? Really? And as for a fighter blowing through it in one hit: 15 hps is a lot for a level 5 to 7 character to get through in one blow. A sword and board fighter has a lot of trouble doing that much damage in one hit. A two hander can do it on a regular basis with some power attack factored in, but at those levels, they'll be running a decent risk of whiffing if they use power attack, even against AC 13. To a barbarian, this is trivial. To a two weapon wielding ranger, a rogue, a sword and board paladin, a rogue (without sneak attack), etc ... , this is a huge difference.
This isn't really that much of a straw man situation. How many times have we faced off against a small army of weak humanoids with a more powerful leader? Tom, Jim, you and I have all made a regular habit of it.
I agree that it is difficult for PCs to abuse it. However, I think it is very easy for an unprepared DM to accidentally abuse it, and surprise himself by turning a moderate encounter into a real killer. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 2:27 PM |
| A pretty average 6th level fighter with a greatsword (we'll give him a 16 strength, a +1 weapon, and weapon specialization, plus power attack and cleave) is swinging at +11/+6 for 2d6+8, so all he needs to average one orc kill per swing is a single buff like bull's strength or a bard singing him to +1 damage.
Anyway, what you're describing is not a DM "abusing" a spell, it is a DM being a dumbass. If the DM is a dumbass and throws things the party can't handle at them, then game balance is basically irrelevant already. A 5th level cleric and 20 regular orcs is an EL 8 encounter. As such, expecting a 5th-6th level party to handle it easily is a mistake in the first place. The problem with the encounter is not the HP totals on the orcs, 5 hp or 15 hp, it doesn't really make a difference. The problem is the 20 attacks that do d12+3 damage when they hit you. As such, yeah, the +1 from mass aid is trouble, but it would be just as bad (worse really, since you're boosting damage and you're penalizing player attack rolls and damage at the same time) if the spell was prayer. Making the players miss is more useful than making the orcs have more HPs. I've never heard anyone say in the last 23 years of playing "man, that prayer spell is super overpowered!" The CR system is already accounting for the possibility of prayer being cast by the CR 5 cleric. It does not need to change just for the slight difference that is offered by the possibility of mass aid instead. EL 8 for level 6 characters is a pain in the ass either way. DMing is about knowing what your characters can handle. If you're setting up encounters that go from easy to TPK with the addition of something as weak as mass aid, the blame should not rest on the guy who wrote the mass aid spell. [)]
Also, a spell being good in a particular situation is not the same as a spell being abusable or broken. "Man, fireballing low level minions is totally abusive!" "Cure light wounds is totally broken for healing people at first level!"
Even the earlier scenario of mass snake's swiftness with an army isn't really a big deal. A 3rd level druid can already completely change the outcome of a fight between armies just by casting entangle, and that's a level lower, and probably will have a much bigger effect than a bunch of level 1 warriors taking another bow shot at +2 (with cover provided by all their friends bunched around them for the SS spell.) Those guys all bunched up for the snake's swiftness effect are just asking for a fireball themselves. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 12/19/2005 3:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
...DMing is about knowing what your characters can handle. If you're setting up encounters that go from easy to TPK with the addition of something as weak as mass aid, the blame should not rest on the guy who wrote the mass aid spell. [)]
Also, a spell being good in a particular situation is not the same as a spell being abusable or broken. "Man, fireballing low level minions is totally abusive!" "Cure light wounds is totally broken for healing people at first level!"
Even the earlier scenario of mass snake's swiftness with an army isn't really a big deal. A 3rd level druid can already completely change the outcome of a fight between armies just by casting entangle, and that's a level lower, and probably will have a much bigger effect than a bunch of level 1 warriors taking another bow shot at +2 (with cover provided by all their friends bunched around them for the SS spell.) Those guys all bunched up for the snake's swiftness effect are just asking for a fireball themselves.
You and I have been blessed with great DMs. There are many people that play with DMs that have little or no understanding of statistics. The rules need to be written for them, as well as us. [)]
As for "a spell being good in a particular situation is not the same as a spell being abusable or broken", you'll need to define "good". A good spell isn't abuseable or broken in my mind. This spell is abuseable in limited situations (mostly by DMs), and breaks the game in that an inexperienced DM may generate a TPK without realizing it. Turning 20 CR 1/2 creatures into 20 CR 2 creatures is baaaaaaaaaaaad.
As for the mass snake swiftness ... I've made my points. I can't see how piling on 50 - 100 points of damage (all on one target, or spread out for melee attacks in a 30' area, or spread out to nearly anywhere in missile range) with a second level spell is considered not to be a big deal. That blows spells like scorching ray or snowball swarm out of the water ...
And why do you think everyone has a fireball handy to level their enemies? [)] If any of these spells included the line, "Oh, and one of the enemies gains the use of 1 fireball spell at your caster level" ... | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 4:15 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
You and I have been blessed with great DMs. There are many people that play with DMs that have little or no understanding of statistics. The rules need to be written for them, as well as us. [)]
A DM that has no concept of how monster HP affect an encounter is going to go to all the trouble of calculating how many orcs a third-level cleric can affect with a mass aid spell? I've seen these types of DMs and they wouldn't bother to legally use a spell. They'd just send the party up against a bunch of storm giants or something.
quote:
As for the mass snake swiftness ... I've made my points. I can't see how piling on 50 - 100 points of damage (all on one target, or spread out for melee attacks in a 30' area, or spread out to nearly anywhere in missile range) with a second level spell is considered not to be a big deal. That blows spells like scorching ray or snowball swarm out of the water ...
Now you're just inflating things. You were arguing just a few posts ago about how hard it is for a 5th level fighter to do 15 damage. Are you now assuming that every party has 4-7 such fighters in it, or are we talking about higher levels, where scorching ray itself approaches 50 damage on average? | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 4:39 PM |
| I keep losing this post, is the board having trouble today?
Anyway: mass aid does not turn CR 1/2 creatures into CR 2 creatures. You can't dispel 10 hps and +1 attack off of a bugbear, you can't run away from him and come back 5 minutes later to a bugbear with 10 less hps, when you fireball the bugbears with your crappy DC 15 fireball, they make their save 50% of the time instead of 30% like the orcs, etc. Mass aid is practically the same as prayer in its impact on the described encounter, and the cleric's CR of 5 already takes group buffing spells like that into account. EL +2 encounters are hard. Nothing about mass aid changes that significantly.
As for the fireball, I think assuming that a group will have access to an area attack spell is certainly at least as valid an assumption as assuming that a given group will be able to execute their mass aid or snake's swiftness to optimal maximum effect every time. [:p]
I mean, as long as we're making assumptions like that, we should assume that fireballs always hit the perfect maximum number of targets, fighters always hit with their first attack, etc. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 12/19/2005 4:56 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Benimoto
...Now you're just inflating things. You were arguing just a few posts ago about how hard it is for a 5th level fighter to do 15 damage. Are you now assuming that every party has 4-7 such fighters in it, or are we talking about higher levels, where scorching ray itself approaches 50 damage on average?
We're already assuming a druid, as he is casting the spell. That gives you an animal companion, as well. One front line fighter is a pretty safe asumption. Many druids rely upon summoning spells as they are one of the best options a druid has for dealing damage (and it would certainly not be a very strong tactic to ignore the synergy between summoning and MSS). Additionally, you may have a cleric, rogue or cohorts involved in the fight. In addition, optimizing power attack by fighters (and perhaps the druid or cleric) will result in a few extra points of damage.
Scorching ray maxes out at 12d6 damage. 12 X 3.5 (average) means 42 damage. That is a bit under 'approaches 50'. You still need to do the hit rolls for those 3 rays. And before you even think it, I was assuming a lot of missing when I said 50 - 100 damage. In fact, let me show you how I was accounting for the misses. To break down the extra damage for an 11th level (where the scorching ray hits 42 average) fairly typical party:
Druid in brown bear wildshape with greater magic fang (all natural attacks get +1/+1) and animal growth. (2d6+13)
3 summoned brown bears under animal growth (6d6+36 (2d6+12 each)).
Animal companion brown bear with animal growth and greater magic fang (2d6+14)
Two handed fighter type (2d6+18 (strength 24, magic weapon, a little power attack))
Rogue with sneak attack (7d6+5)
Wizard with sling (d4)
Cohort bard (d6+5)
20d6 + d4 + 94 = ~166.5 average damage if all hit. Even when you factor in misses ... 50 to 100 is a pretty safe bet. In fact, seeing it fall beneath 100 means your foes have ACs in the mid to high 20s.
Heck, if you kick out the animal growth you still end up 5d8 + 10d6 +d4 + 85 = ~ 145 before accounting for misses. Heck, we can keep the starting damage over 100 average without animal growth and without summoned bears at all.
And if I really wanted to tweak out the band, I'dd add some bull's strength, nature's favor, produce flame, etc ... to pull those numbers well over 200 damage before accounting for some misses.
And as for my argument that a 5th level fighter has trouble doing 15 damage? A two handed specialist can do it pretty well (with a little help). A rogue getting a sneak attack has a decent shot. A one handed fighter on full power attack can do it sometimes. Everyone else, without serious magic, is SOL. The damage output difference between an 11th level party and a 5th level party is huge. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 5:42 PM |
| The only argument I see here is that animal growth is the broken spell, not snake's swiftness.
Also you're stacking up a ridiculous situation, where you have 5 huge base creatures all able to get attacks off in addition to the rest of the party. Good luck with the maneuvering. | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 6:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
Scorching ray maxes out at 12d6 damage. 12 X 3.5 (average) means 42 damage. That is a bit under 'approaches 50'. You still need to do the hit rolls for those 3 rays.
Okay, "approaching" is overstating it for a plain ol' wizard. You're right, the average is 42. But, since you're assuming that a druid and not a wizard is casting snake's swiftness, maybe I'm assuming a warmage with the extra edge and close combat shot feats is casting the rays.
Or maybe it's an arcane trickster build. I know, it's 14th level to get three rays, but against a stunned or flat-footed enemy, we're up to 27d6. That's 94 damage without any further bonuses from feats or items.
I'm sure we can dream up tricks to abuse any spell. I'm just saying that in my experience, snake's swiftness isn't abusive. For the most part, it usually affects 2-3 allies, who can swing for 15-20 a swing, and that's at higher levels. That's hardly broken. If a group of players comes up with the tactical ability and planning to execute 6-7 high-damage strikes from snake's swiftness, that's to be rewarded. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 12/19/2005 6:22 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
Some of these spells are only overpowered in a limited arena ... and mass aid is one of those spells. In a situation where it is allowed to effect too many creatures, it can be devastating.
If creatures can be no more than 30 feet apart, it means that (for medium or small creatures), they must fit in the area of a 15' radius spell. That would be roughly 24 (medium or small) creatures. The average benefit the spell can offer at the minimum caster level is d8+5 temporary hit points, or about 10 hit points. That is 240 temporary hit points from 1 3rd level spell. Of course, if you factor in flying creatures, the number of permissible creatures quadruples, and we're talking about roughly 1000 bonus hit points.
People might compare this spell to fireball, by pointing out that a fireball can deliver far more damage due to more targets. While this is true, it is only true if your enemies line up perfectly for you. That does happen, but it is far easier to get creatures to line up for a benficial spell that grants bonus hit points than it is to get them to line up for a fireball (unless you have a real good bluff role).
Is this a very narrow area? Yes. However, if you look at it carefully, there is huge room for abuse in this narrow avenue. It is an area that could have been closed with a '1 creature per level' type limitation ... without diminishing the use of the spell to a party of PCs (by too much). Instead, we have a situation where a 3rd level orc cleric could more than double the power of a small army of 20 average orcs.
Narrow, but abuseable.
Let people assemble into one of those human pyramids and you can cram a lot more folks into a 15' radius area.
[:)]
Dave | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 8:39 PM |
| quote:
In fact, seeing it fall beneath 100 means your foes have ACs in the mid to high 20s.
Let's look at CR 11 opponents...
Air Elemental, Elder - AC 27
Adult Black Dragon - AC 27
Young Adult Blue Dragon - AC 26
Young Adult Copper Dragon - AC 25
Demon, Hezrou - AC 23 (plus sickened penalty)
Demon, Retriever - AC 21
Devil, Barbed - AC 29
Devourer - AC 24
Earth Elemental, Elder - AC 22
Fire Elemental, Elder - AC 25
Giant, Cloud - AC 24
Gold Dragon, Juvenille - AC 25
Golem, Stone - AC 26
Green Dragon, Young Adult - AC 25
Harpy, Archer - AC 23
Hydra, 10 Headed Cryohydra or Pyrohydra - AC 20
Hydra, 12 Headed - AC 22
Lycanthrope, Hill Giant Dire Wereboar - AC 22, 16, or 19
Monstrous Spider, Colossal - AC 22
Nightmare, Cauchemar - AC 26
Troll, Hunter - AC 21
Water Elemental, Elder - AC 23
Wraith, Dread - AC 25 (plus incorporeal)
Looks like a lot of mid-to-high 20s on that list to me.
CR 13 for a challenging end-of-the-adventure fight, btw, offers us ACs up to 32.
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 12/20/2005 1:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
The only argument I see here is that animal growth is the broken spell, not snake's swiftness.
Also you're stacking up a ridiculous situation, where you have 5 huge base creatures all able to get attacks off in addition to the rest of the party. Good luck with the maneuvering.
You didn't read my entire post [:(] ... I even point out that if you kick out animal growth, you only lose ~ 22 of the ~ 166 damage available. (Offensively, it gives the bears +3/+4 on claw attackas and +3/+2 on bite attacks (plus reach) ... very reasonable for a 5th level spell - The broken part of AG is the DR.). And as for it being ridiculous to get them all attacking, in a narrow dungeon it is hard. Almost everywhere else it is easy due to reach. In Tom's game, think about any of the forest battles we fight, any of the battle that took place in the treant druid's big cavern, any battle taking place in city streets (we're going to be assualting a lot of cities in the future, you know ...) It is far from ridiculous to have 5 huge creatures in a battle in a large area ... especially when you have multiple foes.
As for your list of CR 11 creatures (average AC ~24.5 AC, btw), we'll just ignore the fact that many battles tend to take place against multiple less powerful foes (with lower ACs) and focus on the numbers you propose for single foes (many of whom are large or huge, making it easier for them to be hit by the large or huge bears ...)
Even the AGed bears are hitting at 50% versus the AC 25 (*before* flanking bonuses (which are easy to get if you summon the creatures so they arrive, get their attacks and then are set up for your MSS immediately following their attacks), prayer, bless, etc ...). They come close to hitting at 50% without the +3 from AG. The rest of the party should have ABs of 14 or more ...
Even if you cut out all the fluff and just use the druid, animal companion, two handed fighter and rogue:
Druid in brown bear wildshape with greater magic fang (all natural weapons +1) and animal growth. (2d6+13)
Animal companion brown bear with animal growth and greater magic fang (2d6+14)
Two handed fighter type (2d6+18 (strength 24, magic weapon, a little power attack))
Rogue with sneak attack (7d6+5)
13d6 (avg ~ 45.5) + 39 = 84.5. When they're hitting more than 50% of the time (what did your paladin need to role to hit the bone devil - AC 25 - (BAB 11 + 5 strength + 3 magic weapon + 4 smite????), there should be no problem getting above 50 damage on most castings of MSS. This is a *weak* usage of the spell.
The numbers don't lie.
I'm not usuing totally pimped out creatures here. If I pimp out the party and optimize the situation, I'm pretty sure I could get this spell up to 800 potential damage from one casting. A druid can easily get an additional 6 - 10 summoned creatures. There are a lot of buffing spells that I have not even mentioned. We're not factoring the excessive use of spellcasting cohorts.
I've proposed fairly typical stats, and fairly typical tactics for a level 11 party with a druid. MSS should be expected to add an extra 50 to 100 damage if used moderatley intelligently - and as the target of the damage is highly adjustable (spread out, all on one foe, provoking cleaves, invoking special abilities like improved grab or trip, etc ...) it is far more powerful than just that high amount of damage for a second level spell.
I think I've made my point. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/20/2005 2:36 PM |
| I disagree that some of the things you're assuming are easy to get are actually easy. Summon spells are disruptable full round casts, in order to get your 3 brown bears summoned you have to give up the option of a huge elemental and not roll a 1 on your summoning numbers, then you have to spend another round buffing them, you have to hope your huge figures can all get into position (pretty likely at least a couple of them will be hitting through cover) and finally cast the spell and hope for a lot of hits. The minimum for your "easy" 50-100 points of damage is 3 rounds of preparation and frankly, a fair amount of luck.
Heck just getting 5 large base creatures positioned so you can hit them all with the animal growth spell and give them room to expand to huge pretty much rules out ever doing it inside, except in the largest rooms.
You yourself would put out more damage in those three rounds just attacking, or casting other spells. Remember there's always an opportunity cost to think about too. | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 12/20/2005 3:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
I'm not usuing totally pimped out creatures here. If I pimp out the party and optimize the situation, I'm pretty sure I could get this spell up to 800 potential damage from one casting.
Well I'm sure you can get up to that amount of damage. You're right that snake's swiftness scales extraordinarily well for a second level spell. Can you think of any reasonable restrictions that would limit its use at high levels, the way many other second level spells are limited?
Also you're still putting a lot of optimization into the situation. First, you're assuming a druid is casting the spell, thus making it a second level spell. I see a lot more arcane casters running around than druids, and I'm still convinced that the spell is reasonably balanced against many third-level spells.
Second, you're assuming the druid in question uses wildshape to fight in melee, can cast in wildshape, and can cast in melee. While these aren't unusual traits for druids, they're not universal by far.
Third, as previously mentioned, you're assuming that the characters in question haven't taken any additional attacks from other sources that round. Even assuming they haven't, it's worth noting that you can't increase the damage from snake's swiftness by casting it twice a round. Two druids capable of casting snake's swiftness is redundant, while two mages casting scorching ray or fireball doubles the damage from those spells.
Lastly, despite the fact that your characters are 11th level, you're misleadingly insisting that the damage from mass snake's swiftness be compared to other second level spells. The spell not only costs a second level slot, it costs an action for the druid. How does the damage from snake's swiftness compare to the druid simply taking a full attack? How does it compare to the druid casting a 6th level spell? | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 12/20/2005 6:10 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
I disagree that some of the things you're assuming are easy to get are actually easy. Summon spells are disruptable full round casts, in order to get your 3 brown bears summoned you have to give up the option of a huge elemental and not roll a 1 on your summoning numbers, then you have to spend another round buffing them, you have to hope your huge figures can all get into position (pretty likely at least a couple of them will be hitting through cover) and finally cast the spell and hope for a lot of hits. The minimum for your "easy" 50-100 points of damage is 3 rounds of preparation and frankly, a fair amount of luck.
In combat it can be difficult. Out of combat, it is easy. Casting spells while the enemy closes is not too difficult outdoors. Neither is casting spells before entering an area. You get 11 rounds, which means you can cast these spells hundreds of feet away and then go to the battle location. And as I said, the animal growth is optional, so we're talking about 1 summon spell, plus the MSS in combat.
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Heck just getting 5 large base creatures positioned so you can hit them all with the animal growth spell and give them room to expand to huge pretty much rules out ever doing it inside, except in the largest rooms.
Once again, Animal Growth is only accounting for 22 of the potential 166 damage. From here on out, you could just forget I mentioned it and assume large creatures, only. Besides, it isn't really as hard as you're making it out to be - as long as you have 15' wide corridors, or a large room available.
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
You yourself would put out more damage in those three rounds just attacking, or casting other spells. Remember there's always an opportunity cost to think about too.
You only need 1 rd to cast snake swiftness. The summons CAN come before combat. If you want the summons optimally placed, you need to do it in combat ... but you have your options...
As for doing more damage ... maybe? If you spend 3 rds casting flamestrikes, and the enemies are perfectly laid out ... maybe ... but with the summon/MSS, you still end up with most of the benefit of summons. If you toss in the AG, you and the animal companion are still big trouble for a few more combats.
As for economic opportunity cost ... It is hard to match these results by taking other options. Remember, you can cast summon spells before combat, as well as in combat (minimal opportunity cost - you might have to give up another 1 rd/lvl spell). The summoned creatures have lots of uses (damage sponge, attacking, open doors, scout, etc...) and will survive for a few rounds more (which makes them viable in combat choices if you think you won't be disrupted [Regardless, that is an issue of summons, not an issue of MSS]). If you summon before combat, the impact opportunity cost is pretty much just 1 spell in combat - same as any other spell. And that 1 spell gets you a huge amount of configurable damage.
quote:
Originally posted by Benimoto
...Lastly, despite the fact that your characters are 11th level, you're misleadingly insisting that the damage from mass snake's swiftness be compared to other second level spells. The spell not only costs a second level slot, it costs an action for the druid. How does the damage from snake's swiftness compare to the druid simply taking a full attack? How does it compare to the druid casting a 6th level spell?
For brevity, I cut most of your comments, but I'll give you a quick reply to them.
How would I limit the spell? I would not have a mass version, most likely, and I'd raise the normal version to second or third level. If I had to implement a mass version, it'd be 1 creature /2 levels, higher level (4th at a minimum, more likely 5th or 6th), and/or it'd impart an attack penalty to reduce the chance of hitting nd the expected damage. I could see these spells being far more balanced if all attacks granted by these spells had a -5 attack penalty (but were otherwise unchanged) and it were limited to a reaonable number of creatures (no more than 10 at any level to protect the PCs from bad things).
I am not optimizing the PC party, or the situation in which the combats arise - I am providing reasonable expectations (based mostly upon my current PC) for a party and a situation in which the party might decide to expend these resources (a summon, a MSS, and possibly an AG). I'm using what I consider to be fair numbers ... I have even pointed out ways that I could twink these guys up, but have declined to do so.
Yes, I am assuming the druid is using his best option for combat ... it is possible that he'd use another option, if he had a better one. Should I be assuming more damage due toa better option?
I'm assuming that these creatures did not get haste (or equivalent) bonus attacks. Yes, that is true. I've discussed this before (in detail. As for not using ti twice in the same round - that is sort of true. A sneaky druid could use a quickened version of it at the end of one round, and then 'delay' until the next round started and cast a 2nd level version (as these are different rounds, you'd have both extra attacks available). please also review my comments on timing of extra attacks ... getting them all at once has huge advantages ...
As for your issue that I quoted: Comparing a second level spell to other second levels spells is not misleading. It is common sense. Do you think that a spell can't be overpowered unless it is stronger than the strongest epic spell? That makes no sense.
The opportunity is measured in more than actions. It is also measured in resource limitations. Druids are the most limited 'core spellcasters', in that they have less spells per day than any other core spellcasting class can get. Accordingly, getting more bang for their buck out of a lower level spell is a bigger advantage for a druid than for other classes. Yes, a druid might cast an area of effect 11d6 spell instead of the MSS ... but this spell is much lower in level, and can provide damage that exceeds these higher level spells by a large margin. MSS should be comparable to second level spells.
And, in terms of opportunity cost, this spell may not even cost you an action. A druid with a good concentration score (maxed ranks + wildshaped con) can often cast this spell defensively while standing next to a foe. He can move 8 spaces, stand next to a foe, and cast this spell ... allowing him to attack just as if he had walked up and attacked, and giving everyone else a bonus attack.
If the druid moves up into attack position and casts this spell, he is not truly losing an action, but is only sacrificng a 2nd level spell slot. This argument is a matter of perception. However, at core, it is true that you're spending one standard action for one attack, and the rest of your allies (in range) get an extra attack, too.
Once again, let's forget the summons. Let's ignore the animal companion, too. Let's just think of the druid, a two handed fighter, and a rogue (who can make a sneak attack).
The fighter and rogues may be doubling their damage potential for the round if he moved up to a foe before attacking. If they get full attacks, they're still getting the benefit of another of their best attacks, which often provides more average expected damage than their second and third attacks combined. Even if you're not doubling their expected damage, you're often adding at least 50% to it - from each PC. That means that casting this spell allows the druid to do his normal attack, plus add the effective damage potential of 1 or 2 more PCs in for the total cost of 1 second level slot. And rememeber, this is without including the animal companion, the summons, or any other PCs/cohorts/pets/Pokemon.
The numbers back me up. In the end, let's also rememeber that my numbers show a *VAST* excessiveness in terms of power. Even if some of my assumptions were off by a bit, the effectiveness of this spell would need to take a huge dive before it were balanced.
While it is true that if the DM designs an area to make it hard to use this spell, it is hard to use this spell. The same could be said of *any* game aspect. Heck, a +5 Vorpal Holy Avenger in the hands of a 20th level paladin is pretty much useless against a flying manticore if the paladin has not flight ability. When this spell can be used effectively, which isn't too rare of a circumstance, then my analysis above stands true.
As for whether situations in which summons/MSS are possible ...
SPOILERS FOR A WOTC SITE ADVENTURE BELOW!
Let's look at the WotC website and look at the first 11th level free adventure there: Road to Oblivion. Let's look at the first expected combat in that adventure: a combat where the PCs must aid either a troll or some bandits in a battle(with the bandits and troll locked in combat). Let's ignore the power of the combatants and look at the situation where the battle takes place (as that has been a key point raised against my arguments that MSS is overpowered - that fights don't typically take place in a location where you can get the spell off anywhere close to optimally)
It takes place out in the open, so there is ample room for the summons. The combatants surround the troll, so area of effect spells will be of limited use versus each side. The adventure doesn't specify the distance between the PCs (who are coming around a bend and see the troll/bandits) and the combatants, but it is clear that it is meant to be some distance. You're just able to hear the sound of combat, so if the writers are assuming that you have a good listener in the party, that would be (taking 10 on listen for a 10 listen skill is a 20 result, with the -10 DC and +1 modifier for each 10') 300 feet. The druid (with the high animal form speeds) should be able to get to the action quicker, and have a round to summon things before the heavily armored PCs get there ...
I'd say that'd be a reasonable situation in which to summon (and even cast AG if the rogues and troll seem tough), and then be prepared to use the MSS. As one of the fastest PC classes, the druid could to near the battle in 1 rd (longstrider bears move 50, which puts you 100' from the battle after rd 1), cast summon in rd 2 (those rogues and the troll are tied up with each other, so I'd think the summon would have a good chance of getting off. Even if they turn their attention on the druid, rogues at a distance and a troll without a melee weapon are going to have trouble stopping the spell), send the bears in before acting on rd 3 (while the druid moves up and attacks, or moves up and casts a spell (AG?) - or just uses the MSS suboptimally to finish off the foes). By rd 4, if this were a tough combat that were still underway, the druid, and probably the rest of the party, would be in place to get the maximum benefit of MSS.
As this seems to be a situation where the druids will get time to rest before too many more combats take place, it seems like a perfectly reasonable expectation to see the druid take this course of action ... and we're in the exact optimal situation I discussed before.
There are, of course, a number of other options a party might explore to deal with the situation. We don't need to list those - I fully acknoledge they exist. That is not the point. The point here was demonstrating that situations in which the MSS optimal situations arise are fairly common.
*****
Gentlemen, I rest my case. I've laid out my points, and I've pointed to a bunch of ways in which this spell can be overpowering.
If you wish to heed my cautionary words, you will. If not ... well, you may get lucky and it may never bite you. If it does bite you, you may not get that this spell was the cause of disaster. (It isn't always obvious when the party gets finished off 3 rds after this spell that the extra 40 damage on the paladin, the extra 20 damage on the mage and the extra 60 damage on the cleric that were delivered because of this spell were the key turning point in the battle.) Regardless, I've done my best to warn people of something I think is a problem worth avoiding.
********************
Please don't consider my frustration with a few of these spells as a general condemnation of the book. This book as given me a number of new (and well balanced) spells to add to my game. My dwarven druid LOVES sudden stalagmite ("Here comes one, right up yer pooper, you bony devil"). I also have a new method of gaining a water elemental for 10 rounds ... There are a few spells that really bother me, but most of the book is a lot of fun. I think it is a wonderful addition to the game, as long as you're careful of a few of the spells. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 12/20/2005 6:13 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
...Let people assemble into one of those human pyramids and you can cram a lot more folks into a 15' radius area...
Dave
Try flyers with perfect flight. Who needs a pyramid? | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 12/20/2005 8:18 PM |
| You've made your point that in the right hands the spell can be powerful, but I'm still not convinced the spell is overpowered. The main reason is because of the existance of the haste spell. The mass snake's swiftness is clearly haste in another package, and to balance the minor tactical advantages of the spell, you lose many of the benefits of haste.
Also, similar to the haste spell, the spell only allows more damage against enemies you can already reasonably affect. Comparing the damage from a single casting of this spell to spells that deal direct damage is not always accurate, since those spells can be used in situations where snake's swiftness can't. Snake's swiftness can't really be effectively used on the surprise round. It can't affect enemies that are out of melee range, or that don't take melee damage.
You have a point, that allowing druids access to what is essentially the haste spell does make them more powerful. I think that to some extent that's unavoidable in a book with 1000 new spells. Some characters are going to find a useful spell in a spell slot they rarely used before and that will make them more powerful.
To address your arguments ('scuse me for cutting and pasting):
quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
I am not optimizing the PC party, or the situation in which the combats arise - I am providing reasonable expectations (based mostly upon my current PC) for a party and a situation in which the party might decide to expend these resources (a summon, a MSS, and possibly an AG). I'm using what I consider to be fair numbers ... I have even pointed out ways that I could twink these guys up, but have declined to do so.
Yes, I am assuming the druid is using his best option for combat ... it is possible that he'd use another option, if he had a better one. Should I be assuming more damage due toa better option?
You're right that in the situations you describe, snake's swiftness is one of the best options. I'm just saying that because you play a wildshaping druid who can cast spells in combat, it doesn't mean that everybody casting snake's swiftness will also. You're also a very tactical thinker, and I admire that, but also that increases the benefit you can get out of the spell. You summon a lot and use spells to buff your summons. Your situation is already optimised to use snake's swiftness and I think it's giving you a biased perception of the power of the spell.
Many of the people casting the spell will be arcane casters, and others will be druids that prefer to stay out of combat. Many combats will be chaotic messes where there's no way to focus attacks, or even get more than 1-2 allies in a 20-foot radius. Some parties may not have more than 1-2 effective melee combatants. In these instances, the spell will be less powerful than in the scenarios you describe.
quote:
I'm assuming that these creatures did not get haste (or equivalent) bonus attacks. Yes, that is true. I've discussed this before (in detail. As for not using ti twice in the same round - that is sort of true. A sneaky druid could use a quickened version of it at the end of one round, and then 'delay' until the next round started and cast a 2nd level version (as these are different rounds, you'd have both extra attacks available). please also review my comments on timing of extra attacks ... getting them all at once has huge advantages ...
I saw your argument about the advantages and it's valid, but very few of the uses overpower the haste spell. It's always better to get your damage in sooner. In some situations, snake's swiftness will allow this, sometimes even allowing the caster himself to attack, as you mentioned. In other situations, haste will allow for more attacks sooner. Haste is more powerful whenever the extra movement allows you to move and attack instead of double-moving. It's more powerful in situations where you can take a full attack before the caster gets his turn.
I don't see the benefits of delaying. I read "this spell does not allow the subject to take more than one additional attack in a round" to mean that the subject must take his normal turn before it can be granted another attack, and perhaps even the druid who originally cast snake's swiftness must act before more attacks can be granted. I think it's stated elsewhere in the rules that effects that happen for "a round" do not expire at the beginning of the initiative order.
quote:
As for your issue that I quoted: Comparing a second level spell to other second levels spells is not misleading. It is common sense. Do you think that a spell can't be overpowered unless it is stronger than the strongest epic spell? That makes no sense.
You're right, that doesn't make any sense, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that at levels where the druid can cast in a combat-effective wildshape form he probably has more effective spells or options than snake's swiftness. Even if these are limited use, you won't see any actual power increase until the druid is out of the other powers. I realise that in situations where the druid burns a lot of resources, snake's swiftness will make a second level spell slot still useful at high levels. I think that's fine.
quote:
If the druid moves up into attack position and casts this spell, he is not truly losing an action, but is only sacrificng a 2nd level spell slot. This argument is a matter of perception. However, at core, it is true that you're spending one standard action for one attack, and the rest of your allies (in range) get an extra attack, too.
That situation only works where the druid is the last to move up and attack and everybody else is there already. Otherwise you're giving up a full attack with the druid t |
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