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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
    
Walnut Creek, CA
 | | 12/22/2005 4:12 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
If that's the ROE ruling, it would work like that I guess. I wasn't aware of that ruling, but it makes sense, since it removes the 'what order did they happen in' problem.
The spell I was thinking of is actually in Frostburn - shivering touch, which does 3d6 dexterity damage, no save. I'm not sure it was reprinted in the Spell Compendium.
You actually don't need to combo it, it is broken on its own. :)
I never noticed that one. According to the combined WotC list, shivering touch is not in the Spell Compendium. If it truly is that simple, that is a horribly balanced spell. What level is it? | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/22/2005 4:28 PM |
| cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
I think there may actually be an error in the spell, as it lists a duration, which doesn't make sense given it does damage rather than a penalty. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 12/22/2005 4:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
I think there may actually be an error in the spell, as it lists a duration, which doesn't make sense given it does damage rather than a penalty.
Even a 3d6 penalty would be broken. Hmmmm ... | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/22/2005 4:42 PM |
| | Well, as a penalty, 3d6 at touch range (average 10.5) is actually not as bad as an empowered ray of clumsiness at the same level (d6+5x1.5 as a ranged touch, average 12.75), but maybe I'm misremembering what level ray of clumsiness is. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 12/22/2005 4:56 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Well, as a penalty, 3d6 at touch range (average 10.5) is actually not as bad as an empowered ray of clumsiness at the same level (d6+5x1.5 as a ranged touch, average 12.75), but maybe I'm misremembering what level ray of clumsiness is.
Bad enough ...
Hmmm .. the online index is in error. It lists it twice, once at 1st level, and once at 4th level. I'm betting it is 1st level ... | |
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 12/22/2005 11:15 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
I think there may actually be an error in the spell, as it lists a duration, which doesn't make sense given it does damage rather than a penalty.
As far as I can tell, that sends it to Ghoul Touch mode. You can keep touching and doing 3d6 dex damage for that duration. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/22/2005 11:44 PM |
| | Gah, that would make it really ridiculous. | |
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 12/23/2005 9:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Gah, that would make it really ridiculous.
Ayup, that's why I refer to that book as "The Book of Cold Cheese". See also Numbing Sphere, Iceberg, Fimbulwinter, Frostfell, Flesh to Ice (and its mass version), Ice Assassin and Conjure Ice Beast for ridiculous spells. The PrCs "Frost Mage", "Knight of the Iron Glacier" "Disciple of Thrym" and "Winterhaunt of Iborighu" are all similarly nuts. Heck, even the weaponry in this book is better than any non-cold based counterpart!
Oh, and the Feats chapter is also ridiculous. Piercing Cold (look, my cold is colder than cold!) and Primitive Caster both come to mind. Primitive Caster is a choice rant of one of my friends, as he points out "we spent several millenia refining magic to an art and science, and you come along and do it in some old way, and YOU'RE BETTER? Why did we bother?"
And under NO CIRCUMSTANCES let a Druid near this book. Between the animals in it, and Primeval Wild Shape alone, the already powerful Druid can reach a level of insanity approaching that of the Divine Metamage. The spells chapter sends them into the power stratosphere alongside Archivists and Artificers. | |
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 12/26/2005 3:07 PM |
| | Hmmm...I just noticed another error. Draconic polymorph is listed in the quick reference section as a sor/wiz spell, but its not actuallly in the book. | |
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Omand
Commander
3120 Posts
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
| | 01/06/2006 9:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by B
Hmmm...I just noticed another error. Draconic polymorph is listed in the quick reference section as a sor/wiz spell, but its not actuallly in the book.
Related to this (and other posts). I wonder when we will see errata released for the book?
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dj-chuckles
Underboss
2455 Posts
The State that invented Spam!
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/08/2006 3:53 PM |
| There are a few more spells (beyond the ones mentioned above) that bother me ... I'm just mentioning them so that DMs can think about them and decide if they'll cause problems in their campaign ... In some cases they are not overpowered, but might mess up long terms DM plans.
Energy Field Transformation - This spell has a few possible abuses. It can effectively create a large 'magic dead' area. Alternatively, it can allow first level spellcasters to generate 9th level effects (if a high level spellcaster creates the field). This could create money making schemes, or other sneaky abuses. The concept of the spell is nice, but I'd be cautious in letting it into my campaign. Be particualrly careful if you use the same campaign world for multiple adventuring parties. Placing an energy transformation field in a town during a high level adventure may not cause problems in that campaign, but an enterprising low level party that visits that town later on might find ways to abuse the field that were not relevant for the higher level party.
Baleful Transposition - The limitations on this spell keep it from being an easy instant kill spell ("I switch the positions of the orc leader and my raven familiar, which is flying 130' up in the air"). However, there are still a lot of nearly instant kill uses of this spell, especially if a creature has vulnerabilities to a certain environment or energy type.
Benign Transposition - This is a very strong effect. Note that the 'solid object connecting' restriction is not present with this spell, as it is with baleful transposition. Accordingly, a wizard with a flying animal for a familiar (or even a trained flying creature) could effectively use this spell as dimension door.
Bite of the ... - We mentioned these briefly before, but as a reminder: The bonuses stack with wildshape. A 12th level druid wildshaped into a dire bire that has bite of the werebear cast ... 47 strength. Animal growth puts him over 50. A 12th level druid's grapple check could be +41 ... or higher with other spells and feats.
Enhance wildshape - The ability to gain all extraordinary abilities of creature could be very strong. Fast healing, regeneration, the shambling mound's electrical growth, spell resistance, etc ... are all extraordinary abilities. In general, this isn't too strong of an effect, but if you mix it with some non-core materials, there may be problems.
Know ... - There are a few 'know XXXXX' spells in the book. Consider how they might ruin some of your DM plans. For instance, know vulnerabilities could reveal the secret vulnerability of a special bad guy far earlier than you planned ...
Launch Bolt - This can be nasty in the hands of a very small class of PCs - such as Eldrtich Knights that specialize in archery, or arcane archers, especially if they can quicken a spell.
Lay of the Land - This spell should be called, "Give me the Map, DM". Once a ranger discovers this spell, you'll likely see it cast every time the PCs go someplace new. Notice that it effectively has a 50 mile radius and shows settlements of hamlet size or greater - meaning anyplace where 80 or more creatures are gathered together. If a ranger casts this spell at 4th level, you're in the difficult spot, as you should be telling him where most of the adventures over the next few levels will take place ("a large settlement is present in a cave here, another large settlement is here, in this seemingly inaccessible valley, etc ...")
Plant Body - Just remember that this spell can be shared with an animal companion ...
Ruin Delver's Fortune - As this spell works as an immediate action, a bard or sorcerer with a hefty charisma bonus will rarely ever fair a saving throw again. He also gain evasion, immunity to poison, and immunity to fear. Further, he can boost his hps over and over when he is | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 01/08/2006 4:41 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Testament
Ayup, that's why I refer to that book as "The Book of Cold Cheese". See also Numbing Sphere, Iceberg, Fimbulwinter, Frostfell, Flesh to Ice (and its mass version), Ice Assassin and Conjure Ice Beast for ridiculous spells.
Some of those spells I agree with you, others I don't. I'm not really seeing the problem with Numbing Sphere or Fimbulwinter.
These I agree with you:
Conjure Ice Beast: Not so well balanced against Summon Nature's Ally.
Flesh to Ice: definitely broken. It's better in range and effect than the best 5th level save or die spell from the PHB. Thankfully, I don't see a mass version.
Frostfell: Yikes.
Iceburg: I don't spend much time looking at 9th level spells, but that's a whole lot of damage over a huge area.
quote:
And under NO CIRCUMSTANCES let a Druid near this book. Between the animals in it, and Primeval Wild Shape alone, the already powerful Druid can reach a level of insanity approaching that of the Divine Metamage. The spells chapter sends them into the power stratosphere alongside Archivists and Artificers.
In my campaigns, I usually give characters full access to spells from the PHB and the Complete Books series (Soon to be condensed as the Spell Compendium which arrives on my doorstep this week). Additionally, I'd give an elven wizard access to wizard spells from Races of the Wild. However, other books I tend to be pretty stingy about access to unless there's a really good RP justification. In the case of Frostburn, I might use those spells for enemy druids and wizards, but they aren't available to the PCs without a significant amount of work (time and $$$). | |
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Lead Moderator
LCS
Underboss
1928 Posts
| | 01/08/2006 5:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
"Off balance" isn't defined in D&D, but things like Sickened and Dazzled seem closest and do not force you to lose your dexterity bonus to AC. In truth, in order for you to be subject to a sneak attack, you pretty much either need to be unable to defend yourself against the attack. Off balance doesn't quite seem to get you to that point ...
You loose your Dex bonus when using some skills, like Balance for example.
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/08/2006 5:06 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by LCS
quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
"Off balance" isn't defined in D&D...
You loose your Dex bonus when using some skills, like Balance for example.
Is that your ruling, or are you saying that you found it in a core book somewhere? Or a supplement? | |
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Lead Moderator
LCS
Underboss
1928 Posts
| | 01/08/2006 5:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
Is that your ruling, or are you saying that you found it in a core book somewhere? Or a supplement?
I believe it's in the description of the Balance skill. [in the PHB]
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/08/2006 7:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by LCS
quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
Is that your ruling, or are you saying that you found it in a core book somewhere? Or a supplement?
I believe it's in the description of the Balance skill. [in the PHB]
Ahhh ... I see what you're saying. I thought you were defending the proposition that a character loses their dexterity bonus when tripped (which was the context in which I said that "off balance" is not defined in D&D ... as someone else had described being tripped as being "off balance").
You're just saying that a character loses their dex bonus while "balancing" - specifically, when making a skill check using the balance skill. That is true ... unless yuou have 5 ranks in balance or uncanny dodge. I love using that rule to surprise PCs with a rogue ambush. My favorite is placing a log across a ravine, having a bunch of hiding rogues on the far side of the ravine from the PCs and having the rogues ready to either fire missile weapons at someone crossing, or to run up and push the log into the ravine ... | |
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 01/09/2006 11:37 AM |
| Yeah, that's what I was getting at. [:D]
I'm still not sold on the bite of the --- spells stacking with wild shape. Basically, the spell causes you to take another form. I would rule that you use the stats of your base form modified by the bonuses from the spell. My Dm feels that way too.
I was looking at the Balor Nimbus spell. That is REALLY good for a campaign where you are bing grappled a lot. Consequently, my DM has forbidden that too. [:(]
Ps. I found sarcophagus of stone in the quick reference section of the book. It is a 6th level cleric spell.....other details are still MIA | |
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Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 01/09/2006 1:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by B
I'm still not sold on the bite of the --- spells stacking with wild shape. ...
I was looking at the Balor Nimbus spell. That is REALLY good for a campaign where you are bing grappled a lot. Consequently, my DM has forbidden that too. [:(]
Those bite spells are very powerful, although I'm beginning to hedge away from my earlier proclomation of doom by allowing them to stack with wildshape/polymorph. They only last 1 rd/lvl, and are of pretty decent level. Instead of casting bite of the werebear, the druid could be summing huge (or even greater) elementals ... I've downgraded it from 'obviously broken' to 'needs to be reviewed before I allow it to be used'.
Balor nimbus is nice, but a bit difficult to use. It has a short duration, deals the most resistable damage, and is only useful in a grapple. It is fine as a defensive spell, but you'd need a monk or a druid to really capitalize on it, and those guys don't get the spell. | |
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