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Arkwald
Sneak
57 Posts
    
 | | 04/20/2006 12:29 PM |
| quote:
I realize that that particular slice of reality puts you in the oh-so-scary position of Being Empowered instead of Being a Victim, but geez, can't you be motivated to take advantage of one of the aspects of Capitalism that *does* empower people?
Not too get that far off topic but the whole empowered versus victim thing is so cliche. People are not ants. People are who they want to be and if you want to believe that all a person is is just a cog in a machine then go right ahead but don't expect anyone to agree with you that a human being can be reduced to such forms.
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| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6614 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 04/20/2006 1:31 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Arkwald
quote:
I realize that that particular slice of reality puts you in the oh-so-scary position of Being Empowered instead of Being a Victim, but geez, can't you be motivated to take advantage of one of the aspects of Capitalism that *does* empower people?
Not too get that far off topic but the whole empowered versus victim thing is so cliche. People are not ants. People are who they want to be and if you want to believe that all a person is is just a cog in a machine then go right ahead but don't expect anyone to agree with you that a human being can be reduced to such forms.
What he was saying wasn't reducing people at all. Quite the opposite. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 3:04 PM |
| Kyrin:
I understand what you're saying, regarding the class issues. I consider myself a socialist (albeit a bit of a low-grade one), I've read Marx, and honestly I agree with you for the most part. Issues of race and religion in particular distill very clearly down to class conflict much of the time.
However, I think it is an oversimplification to say that all of these issues boil down 100% to a class issue. Gender issues specifically don't map well to that model. None of the other issues are rooted in systems of power that exist within the smallest societal unit (the family.) The others are all instances of discrimination or power that happen across class boundaries in one way or another.
I don't think there's any meaningful class distinction that can be drawn between a husband and wife, unless you're using a different definition for class than I think you are.
Issues of gender really just are different in a fundamental way. I'm not going to say class is irrelevant to them in a larger sense, because I don't think it is. I think we can clearly see that in poorer societies, women are treated worse. That aspect of the issue, though, is irrelevant to the much, much smaller question of "is gaming unfriendly to women." As I've said in different terms, what we're discussing here is primarily an intraclass issue.
To respond to a couple other specific points:
- I think you're ascribing too much influence over the specifics of product contents to executives. The people who have the most control over that are product marketing people (like brand managers) and lead designers. I'm assuming the process, based on the job titles and the feedback we've seen from Wotc, is similar in the RPG world to the computer software world, which is what I'm more familiar with.
- I already do provide this sort of feedback to companies (although honestly not as much as Sjofn does.) To date it has been primarily to the MMO gaming world than the RPG world, although I know I've mentioned in it in customer feedback surveys to traditional RPG companies before.
- Even if the only other people reading this thread were gamers with no more influence than you or me, I believe it would still be a useful conversation. Awareness of issues is the first step towards solutions, so if even a handful of gamers read the thread and at least start asking themselves "am I helping?" then there's been a positive impact. I have no way of knowing the level of success that it has had in that way, really, other than people posting in the thread giving their thoughts. I *do* find Benimoto's post about his LG module encouraging in this regard, though. | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 3:52 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
Nice way to insult me without making it seem like a personal attack. Or maybe I'm just running up against a tremendous degree of obfuscation by people that have made a living out of exploiting people's good intentions. They're pros, I'm an amateur -- in both senses of the word.
Kyrin, to be blunt, your posts here are coming off as arrogant and defensive, and I thought maybe you didn't realize that. I wanted to tell you without making a personal attack, because when you make personal attacks, people don't take you seriously. The same goes for when they think you're arrogant or defensive.
quote:
Howsabout, I dunno, doing something?
This is an Internet message board. It's here for discussion. We can have discussion, AND we can do something. Just like we can address images of women in gaming, AND we can work against even greater inequalities. It's not a one-or-the other proposition. Besides, maybe I am doing something. Do I have to crow about it when I discuss it?
Let's use the medium here to discuss. Like Ian said, raising awareness is important. It's a reasonable goal for a blog post, which is what the original articles esentially were. It's a reasonable goal for this message board. | |
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 4:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Benimoto
Kyrin, to be blunt, your posts here are coming off as arrogant and defensive, and I thought maybe you didn't realize that. I wanted to tell you without making a personal attack, because when you make personal attacks, people don't take you seriously. The same goes for when they think you're arrogant or defensive.
Benimoto, to be blunt, I have met very few "socially aware" people who are *not* arrogant and defensive. I mean, look at the terms they use to describe themselves: "socially aware," "socially conscious," "progressive." They OOZE arrogance in every cruel, patronizing word they use. They think that *their* message is Good Enough and Right Enough that they can treat people like ignorant rubes and still get their message across. I'm speaking to them in their own language. If they don't like the view in the mirror, tough.
quote:
Besides, maybe I am doing something. Do I have to crow about it when I discuss it?
Yes.
Yes you should. It's the ONLY way to let people know that things ARE being done, the ONLY way to get the numbers you need to actually make an impact, the ONLY way to *truly* inspire. Why is it that when people actually *do* something and talk about it, it's called "crowing," but when people spout useless, empty rhetoric, and preach to the choir, it's called "raising consciousness?"
quote:
Let's use the medium here to discuss. Like Ian said, raising awareness is important. It's a reasonable goal for a blog post, which is what the original articles esentially were. It's a reasonable goal for this message board.
"Raising awareness" is completely and utterly worthless unless it is accompanied by solid action. Or don't they teach the notion of Praxis in school anymore, either?
If people get off their butts and start filing complaints, then this discussion *has* been useful. If people just go on preaching their sermons to the Amen Corner and being victims, it's all hot air. There's one of Ian's didactic choices that *is* true.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 4:20 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by reezel
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
For every Marion Zimmer Bradley, there are 15 Robert Jordans*.
You have totally lost me in your arguments at this point. Jordan has a world where, if anything, women are the dominant gender. I've read his books more times than I can count and if anything he should be praised for his portrayal of women. I can't think of any fantasy story where women are given the limelight so much (both as good and bad characters) as Jordan's work.
Jordan's "characters" are two dimensional stereotypes barely distinguishable from one another, his gender politics are incredibly simplistic in the "Men are from Mars..." sense, and his romantic plots are 98% adolescent fantasy. I could have picked a more overt example, I suppose, but I think Jordan illustrates a lot of problems in the genre. | |
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reezel
Sergeant
555 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 4:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
quote:
Originally posted by reezel
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
For every Marion Zimmer Bradley, there are 15 Robert Jordans*.
You have totally lost me in your arguments at this point. Jordan has a world where, if anything, women are the dominant gender. I've read his books more times than I can count and if anything he should be praised for his portrayal of women. I can't think of any fantasy story where women are given the limelight so much (both as good and bad characters) as Jordan's work.
Jordan's "characters" are two dimensional stereotypes barely distinguishable from one another, his gender politics are incredibly simplistic in the "Men are from Mars..." sense, and his romantic plots are 98% adolescent fantasy. I could have picked a more overt example, I suppose, but I think Jordan illustrates a lot of problems in the genre.
This is not the place for it, but I'd love to pick your brain on this and get your examples. Every character I've seen of Jordan's seems to be fleshed out to an extreme, with each having many different reactions that change as they do. (The Rand in Wheel of Time and the Rand in Knife of Dreams are two very different people.) | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 4:30 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
"Raising awareness" is completely and utterly worthless unless it is accompanied by solid action. Or don't they teach the notion of Praxis in school anymore, either?
If people get off their butts and start filing complaints, then this discussion *has* been useful. If people just go on preaching their sermons to the Amen Corner and being victims, it's all hot air. There's one of Ian's didactic choices that *is* true.
Right, but it's one, then the other. You have to make people aware of the problem before they can take action. Awareness comes through discussion. What we're having here is discussion.
You can't make anybody do anything over a message board. You don't need to post that you did something on a message board for it to have an effect.
Jim, if you're serious about inspiring people to change, then I encourage you to work towards that. If you don't like it when people are arrogant or defensive, then why would "speaking to them in their own language" work? There are books on the subject available. "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is a oldie, but still relevant. I'm sure there's more modern ones as well. | |
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 4:57 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Benimoto
Right, but it's one, then the other. You have to make people aware of the problem before they can take action. Awareness comes through discussion. What we're having here is discussion.
I await confirmation of action. Upon such confirmation, I will happily retract my statements. But I ain't optimistic about the prospects. After all, action is *hard.*
quote:
You can't make anybody do anything over a message board. You don't need to post that you did something on a message board for it to have an effect.
Make them? No, and you shouldn't. Inspire them? Certainly. Mobilize them? Definitely. And you absolutely need to talk about it if you want to inspire, mobilize, and make an impact. Dear sweet leaping slaadi, why wouldn't you want to talk about doing something for a cause you really believe in? To use Biblical vernacular, why would you hide your light under a bushel? Benomoto, IT MAKES NO SENSE!!!!
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If you don't like it when people are arrogant or defensive, then why would "speaking to them in their own language" work?
They are the ones who yammer about how good they are at critical thinking. I'm giving them a chance to use those skills -- on themselves for a change. "Gee, being arrogant and defensive doesn't work on *me*. Hmmm..." I mean, see how well your calling me arrogant and defensive worked on *me?*
quote:
There are books on the subject available. "How to Win Friends and Influence People" is a oldie, but still relevant. I'm sure there's more modern ones as well.
If I had the money, I'd send every "socially aware" person I know a copy. Lacking the funds, I try to show them how others see them. They rarely like the view.
As I said, I await confirmation of action to ignite corporate change. Who will be bold enough, who will care enough, to set about providing it?
JIM
aka kyrin | |
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 5:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
- I think you're ascribing too much influence over the specifics of product contents to executives.
If an edict comes down from On High to Cut the Cheescake, then Cheescake Will Be Cut. Period. You can waste precious time trying to "raise the consciousness" of dozens of people in the lower eschelons, OR you can put economic pressure on a few people up top to COMPEL those in the lower eschelons to do what needs to be done (or stop doing what needs to stop). You then can at your leisure raise consciousness as you will, and not have to worry about losing female gamers in the interim. Or aren't they that important? Doesn't the problem need to be taken care of NOW?
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I already do provide this sort of feedback to companies (although honestly not as much as Sjofn does.) To date it has been primarily to the MMO gaming world than the RPG world, although I know I've mentioned in it in customer feedback surveys to traditional RPG companies before.
Since you drew *your* work into this, I will draw mine. In academia, a hundred student reviews don't have a tenth of as much impact as one student who goes to the Dean or the President. Customer feedback surveys are quite ignorable. A letter from The Boss about the angry letters *he's* been getting will have more of an impact than a hundred surveys.
quote:
Awareness of issues is the first step towards solutions
ONLY if it's followed up by action. Otherwise it's the first step to nowhere.
I don't get it. I know that rallying a few hundred people to write letters on a consistent basis is hard -- much harder than yammering on a message board. But it's really the only way that anything is going to get done.
Please at least *try* to look critically at this, and look at history. Why do we even have Tanar'ri and Baatezu in our gaming vocabulary? I'll give you a hint: it's NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT because a bunch of bluenose "concerned citizens" got together and quoted the Bible to each other, talked about it for a bit, and "raised awareness" about the problem before going on with their lives. Those folks worked HARD, they made phone calls and wrote letters (and NOT to the creative staff -- to the boys in the boardroom) and organized groups and y'know what? They got what they wanted. For awhile at least, D&D had nary a mention of demons and devils.
Are you willing to learn from their example? Is the expulsion of words and images insulting to women more important than what kind of beastie a Balor is called, or isn't it? Are you willing to work as hard as those folk did to get what you want? If so, then stop talking about it. Rally the troops and get to writing.Do something! If not, then just stop talking about it. Yer wasting oxygen. Or in this case, electrons.
How bad do you want it?
I get enough learned helplessness at work. If I'm just going to encounter wave after wave of it here, I'm out. I think I've done enough "consciousness raising" for now, and I will follow JG's advice and leave the mine field. I will save all this stuff however, just in case someone brings this up ever again...
Adios.
JIM
aka kyrin
waiting now to see what the Counselor will do to try and suck him back in | |
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 5:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by reezel This is not the place for it, but I'd love to pick your brain on this and get your examples. Every character I've seen of Jordan's seems to be fleshed out to an extreme, with each having many different reactions that change as they do. (The Rand in Wheel of Time and the Rand in Knife of Dreams are two very different people.)
Since this thread has been hijacked to hell and back anyway, I'll post this. The best example I can come up with are the chunk of the Aes Whatevers (the red ones, I think) that are essentially castrating bitches. Their ENTIRE PURPOSE is to find powerful men (in that they can tap the Force ... er, excuse me, the One Power) and CUT THEM OFF FROM IT. Potent man, cut off from his potency by a bunch of mean ol' women.
There are others, of course, like the God Awful cycle of what feels like EVERY male character having a "I JUST DON'T GET THEM WIMMINZ LIKE (othermalecharacter) DOES!" and the Frigid Bitch character of Naewhateverhernamewas and the terrible Rand Gets Three Girlfriends What a Freaking Stud thing.
All that said, I would've pointed to Piers Anthony m'self. | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4811 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 04/20/2006 5:23 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sjofn
All that said, I would've pointed to Piers Anthony m'self.
Can't find many prolific fantasy writers as sexist/objectifying as Piers (particularly in his later books which seem to have lost any other form of content).
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 5:34 PM |
| | Yeah, Anthony would be a much more overt example, I agree. To be honest, he's been so far outside of my reading sphere for so long that I forgot about him. | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 5:40 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
As I said, I await confirmation of action to ignite corporate change. Who will be bold enough, who will care enough, to set about providing it?
Ask yourself, why would anybody do this for you? Would telling you what they've done change what they've done? If they were working towards progress here, how would that serve their cause?
People here have given examples and testimonials of what they're doing, of the actions they're taking. If you think they need to be doing something different, what motivation do they have follow your methods? What proof do they have that your way is better than their way? All I see any side here offering offering is personal anecdote and experience.
Why would you act exactly how you don't like people to act and then expect them to follow your advice? | |
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proudft
Sneak
109 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 5:42 PM |
| Hijack!
Counterexample: George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire.
Here you have a very patriarchal world, with plenty of overt sexism present, male characters who specifically hate Uppity Females, one actual Powerhungry Bitch -- yet he has actual female characters instead of stereotypes.
A conununununundrum.
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 5:51 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by proudft
Hijack!
Counterexample: George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire.
Here you have a very patriarchal world, with plenty of overt sexism present, male characters who specifically hate Uppity Females, one actual Powerhungry Bitch -- yet he has actual female characters instead of stereotypes.
A conununununundrum.
I almost used him as my Good example, actually. He does a very good job of realistically describing a patriarchal system without glorifying it or glossing over the bad parts. | |
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 5:57 PM |
| Indeed, even Powerhungry Bitch is written well enough that she doesn't bother me, because he doesn't just lazily leave it there, a stereotype with no reasoning behind it. It seems to me that half of the reason she IS powerhungry is because of the patriarchal system she's stuck in.
Although this last book he might've been getting a LITTLE lazy. :P | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4811 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 04/20/2006 7:48 PM |
| Can't wait for finals to end so I can finally read Martin's last book [:(]
Back to the topic at hand....any other female gamers want to weigh in on the issue? I think the arguments (while borderline flaming at times) have been interesting if nothing else. It's particularly nice to hear greater input by the group in question. Inclusion of the marginalized into a discussion about the marginalized is moving in the right direction.
I also agree with Corim Danex. Being "conservative" doesn't equate with being sexist (I know, I know Anne Coulter is somewhat insane...so is Barbra Streisand. Keeps the world balanced).
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 8:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Benimoto
quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
As I said, I await confirmation of action to ignite corporate change. Who will be bold enough, who will care enough, to set about providing it?
Ask yourself, why would anybody do this for you? Would telling you what they've done change what they've done? If they were working towards progress here, how would that serve their cause?
Christ, don't you READ? It's not "telling me!" It would be telling others! Others who would join in! Who might add weight to the cause and actually get something done! Or is laboring alone in silence so appealing to your Quixotic desires? Don't you want to succeed? Don't all these years of frustration and stagnation give you the eensiest hint that you might want to try something new? Something that has worked for others and might, just might, work for you?
quote:
People here have given examples and testimonials of what they're doing, of the actions they're taking. If you think they need to be doing something different, what motivation do they have follow your methods? What proof do they have that your way is better than their way?
Again, READ WHAT I WROTE! Or are you just being willfully ignorant of how a bunch of people who don't even play the game were able to change the game? Sure, the change was superficial, but I think that artwork is pretty superficial, myself. How much more power do you think you, an actual customer, would have? Or are you afraid to take that power?
If you're to the point where you are so caught up in dogma that you can't see actual evidence, you are beyond the pale. It's like trying to convince Aristotle that heavier objects don't fall faster. And if you're not going to actually read what I wrote, I'm not answering your questions anymore.
quote:
Why would you act exactly how you don't like people to act and then expect them to follow your advice?
Ask a "socially aware" crusader that. I dare you. And then get ready to duck and cover.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 9:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by zenthrus
I also agree with Corim Danex. Being "conservative" doesn't equate with being sexist (I know, I know Anne Coulter is somewhat insane...so is Barbra Streisand. Keeps the world balanced).
I'm sorry, I know you're trying to be fair, and I really don't want to start an OMG LIBERAL/CONSERVATIVE debate, but I don't recall Barbara Streisand saying HALF the crazy horsecrap Anne does. We're talking about a woman who thinks calling for the genocide of people who follow a religion she doesn't like is funny, that suggesting killing people she doesn't like is hilarious. That's not "somewhat insane," that's psychotic. The woman sells hatred for a living. Barbara might be a hard left liberal, but selling hatred of the right isn't her job.
This is what annoys me about the "Yeah well, YOU have Michael Moore!" and stuff. Michael Moore does not propose killing those that disagree with him. Small difference to you, perhaps, BIG DIFFERENCE to the people who would be among the first on the list for the killin'.
EDIT: Ian made me not cuss. :( | |
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dagonet
Sergeant
442 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 10:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sjofn
quote:
Originally posted by zenthrus
I also agree with Corim Danex. Being "conservative" doesn't equate with being sexist (I know, I know Anne Coulter is somewhat insane...so is Barbra Streisand. Keeps the world balanced).
I'm sorry, I know you're trying to be fair, and I really don't want to start an OMG LIBERAL/CONSERVATIVE debate, but I don't recall Barbara Streisand saying HALF the crazy horsecrap Anne does. We're talking about a woman who thinks calling for the genocide of people who follow a religion she doesn't like is funny, that suggesting killing people she doesn't like is hilarious. That's not "somewhat insane," that's psychotic.
What makes you think she's joking or trying to be funny? Maybe she's just being honest and that's what she actually wants. She certainly isn't the only one with those views, though probably one of the only ones willing to admit it. Sounds like something right out of 'The Handmaid's Tale', which itself frequently reads like a blueprint for where this country seems to be heading.
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proudft
Sneak
109 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 12:20 AM |
| Well, think about how dumb you figure the average person is, and remember that 50% of the population is dumber than that.
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 04/21/2006 12:49 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sjofn
EDIT: Ian made me not cuss. :(
Nice way to subjugate the womenfolk, Ian.
Geesh.
Has this thread taught you nothing?
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 3:22 AM |
| John, cram it.
And dagonet, I'm just sayin' she claims (and a lot of her fans claim) that she's totally only joking and man why don't you people have a sense of humour.
This thread is neat-o, you actually brought up The Handmaid's Tale. :) | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 3:45 AM |
| Wow, interesting that this topic is so hot! Lots of passion here.
A couple points:
Kyrin, let me tell you how my company operates and how many other companies operate (as I've had first hand knowledge of the inner workings of many corporations). What you describe (i.e. it's just the exec or CEO that wields the power) isn't really accurate. In my company, I decide the packaging for my games, not the CEO. He has bigger fish to fry. So as IanB says, yes, the brand managers (of which I am one) and the designers have way more say in the messaging than the CEO. It's not that he doesn't wield the power, which obviously he does, it's that he has other people do it for him.
I create the packaging as I see fit. If I think a naked chick holding a sword is gonna sell more games, I could put it on. If I thought a dragon would sell more games, I could do that. The CEO won't even see the final concept until the last stages. And he has to approve it, yes, but if I stand behind my box, he'll sign it. So actually you do want to influence me and not the guy who runs my company. It isn't the CEO you should be educating first, it's the rank and file at the companies. Lurkinglidda has far more power than you think when it comes to shaping the message of DDM.
Another case in point, things are getting better, and part of that has to do with raising awareness, which you poo-poo. Fortunately for us, it works. Take the newest hot videogame today - Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. In 1995, when Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall came out, the main image on the box was a classic Boris Vallejo-type chick in a black bikini holding a greatsword. No joke. Pretty much half-naked Playmate with a sword. Sold like crap cuz the game had issues and people complained about the naked chick cover. That was back in the Dark Ages of gaming when that sort of imagery went on alot. Like a snowball turning into an avalanche, people would complain about these sorts of covers and the inappropriate use of ladies to sell games, and eventually it reached a crescendo. Now every company in my industry (videogames) is well aware of the issue (although some still don't listen). Companies clearly have taken notice. So now we have the year 2006, and Elder Scrolls IV released. It did not have a bikini-clad lady on the cover. And it has sold 1.7 million copies worldwide. Stupid sexist stuff still goes on, but my point is that things are changing, and they change because people talk about these issues. Sometimes, raising awareness is also an effective way to start change. It isn't the only way, and I think you miss the point when people advocate awareness as a start. We're not saying it's the end-all, be-all, but we don't dismiss it like you do, and you shouldn't either.
Finally, Kyrin, Benimoto is right. You are coming off as arrogant and defensive. It seems that when people don't agree with you, you attribute it to them not reading your post or being ignorant. I think Benimoto did read your post and just didn't agree. Yet you think we're somehow deficient in understanding so you attempt to educate us. I don't think a lot of us need you to explain class issues to us. However, it seems perhaps that we might have to explain racism and sexism to you.
Likewise, as IanB and Benimoto pointed out, some of us are taking action, but we just aren't tooting our own horns here. Yet you somehow assume that because we are discussing things here that we aren't taking action. Why would you think that? The two are not mutually exclusive. You have no idea what we're doing outside of this messageboard to take action, yet you happily and passionately dictate that we're just sitting on our hands doing nothing. But when people show you that you are wrong (because obviously they know better than you what they are doing), you somehow don't seem to register it because your arguments continue exactly the same as before.
Just listen. Very few are disagreeing with everything you are saying (IanB even validates much of what you say) yet you refuse to do anything but pick at the nits in people's posts.
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Champion of Neogi
Completed Trades/Transactions: sttmxn, Krush, jgsugden, Ayrychx2, Venport, Tysac
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 04/21/2006 12:32 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sjofn
John, cram it.
Cramming as I type. [)] | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 12:55 PM |
| Okay, I'm going to say this again, for a third time.
When a group of people decided they didn't like that "demons" and "devils" were being featured in the D&D game, they complained. And they did NOT complain to the design staff. They complained much higher up, and made considerable noise. Thus, the word came down from On High to Call Them Something Else. Thus, the words "Tanar'ri" and "Baatezu" were coined.
I'm trying to tell you what works. I know it works for the most straightforward of reasons: it has worked. And it will work, if only you will try. I know it's a lot of work, but effective techniques usually are.
quote:
I think Benimoto did read your post and just didn't agree.
No, he obviously didn't pay attention. He accused me of giving no evidence that "my method" would work, just after I had done just that. He didn't read it. Maybe because he didn't want to see it.
quote:
Yet you think we're somehow deficient in understanding so you attempt to educate us.
No, dude, I'm "raising awareness." How does it feel to have your awareness raised? Now, before the sting goes away, try to summon up some empathy and think about how others might like it.
quote:
I don't think a lot of us need you to explain class issues to us.
There is a ton of evidence to the contrary. And since most of you come from middle- to upper-class backgrounds, instead of Poor White Trash like me, I suppose you can't be expected to fully grasp class issues. Just like men can't be expected to fully grasp women's issues, and whites can't be expected to fully grasp minority issues. The vast overwhelming majority of you don't have to worry about losing your farm to a big agribusiness, or having a mine collapse on your head because the owner's idea of safety predates the Magna Carta, or have to watch your father sitting and crying because you're about to lose your home despite the fact that he's working 60+ hours a week at manual labor, or hear your mother weeping because the electricity has just been cut off despite the fact that she was a Working Mother before being a Working Mother was cool. You have the luxury (dare I say privilege?) of letting a picture of a woman in a chainmail bikini steal joy from your life because you're not expending so much energy just to survive. You have the privilege of a perspective that I, from the perspective of my childhood below the poverty level, see as warped. Myself, I am way too glad to have a roof over my head and food on my table to let something like that bug me because, quite frankly, I am the first person in my family to ever have that level of security. EVER. And I've only gotten it in the last quarter of my life. So yes, Feathers, since you brought it up, I think that many of you *do* need to be educated about class issues.
How does THAT feel? And no, this has little to do with gaming, but you bust out an arrogant and defensive statement like the one above, you're asking for it.
quote:
However, it seems perhaps that we might have to explain racism and sexism to you.
Very nice. Arrogant and defensive. QED. Can you just not see the mirror, or won't you open your eyes?
quote:
You have no idea what we're doing outside of this messageboard to take action, yet you happily and passionately dictate that we're just sitting on our hands doing nothing.
Passionately, yes. Happily, never. The more y'all say this, the more I am convinced my beliefs are true. What did Shakespeare write about protesting too much?
All right, you guys have worn me out. Wallow in helplessness if you wish. Preach your manifestos to the choir and "raise awareness" until Doomsday. At least you'll have a steady job banging your head against that wall. If you can't learn from history and see what is right in front of you, it is truly hopeless.
I am now well and truly done. No matter how many attacks you make against me, no matter how much you try and marginalize my feelings and experiences, I will not respond. You win, and I have my regular reminder of how blind and insensitive "socially aware" people can be. Hooray.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 2:14 PM |
| | Well, I tried, but apparently you're going to read what you want to read in my posts. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 2:16 PM |
| | Well, at least it illustrated ... er ... something. | |
God Save the Horn Players | |
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proudft
Sneak
109 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 2:39 PM |
| This is far from over, it hasn't been Godwinized yet!
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 2:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by proudft
This is far from over, it hasn't been Godwinized yet!
You know who ELSE thought stuff was far from over? | |
God Save the Horn Players | |
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proudft
Sneak
109 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 2:49 PM |
| | You won't trick me that easily. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 04/21/2006 3:12 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
Yes, it's official ... kyrin is a net.kook.
We have official rules for this??????
Where do I apply? | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1341 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 3:15 PM |
| | I'm figuring that this thread will be locked soon, so I'll pipe in one last time. I appreciate all of the discussion, aside from the capital letters, multiple exclamation points, and overuse of bold and italicized font. Trying to separate class from race and other facets of identity is pretty simplistic. I think they call it reductionist. I dunno, I'm just the ABD son of a truck driver who never got his high school diploma. Many Marxists recognize that racism, sexism, etc. exist and are intertwined with class conflict -- even when they continue to insist on the primacy of class. Anyhoo, as a fledgling writer, I'll join Benimoto in taking action as I write adventures and other pieces for publication. | | | |
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 3:51 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by proudft
You won't trick me that easily.
Curses! | |
God Save the Horn Players | |
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Aravar
Skirmisher
21 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 4:23 PM |
| I find it amazing that all of you who are so terribly socially aware havve time for a trivial pastime like DnD.
Shouldn't you all be doing something about the real world, rather than tilting at dragons? | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 4:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Aravar
I find it amazing that all of you who are so terribly socially aware havve time for a trivial pastime like DnD.
Shouldn't you all be doing something about the real world, rather than tilting at dragons?
Yes, sadly, being a true liberal means you're not allowed to ever have any fun at all.
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Anson on WotC boards | |
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 4:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Yes, sadly, being a true liberal means you're not allowed to ever have any fun at all.
...
It's why we have no senses of humour, you know. | |
God Save the Horn Players | |
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proudft
Sneak
109 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 4:44 PM |
| | You know who ELSE had no sense of humor? | |
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| | You are not authorized to post a reply. | |
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