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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
    
Walnut Creek, CA
 | | 04/21/2006 4:57 PM |
| | Now that we've had all this discussion, I thought it might be nice for someone on the 'vocal majority side' to summarize proactive steps that can be undertaken to further the goals described within this thread. Any takers? | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 04/21/2006 5:18 PM |
| Oh, and I think that many of the people in this thread might enjoy the following web site:
http://www.planetdan.net/pics/misc/georgie.htm | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 5:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
Now that we've had all this discussion, I thought it might be nice for someone on the 'vocal majority side' to summarize proactive steps that can be undertaken to further the goals described within this thread. Any takers?
I'm not particularly interested in discussing this with you, since your standard tactic seems to be, "Figure out what someone thinks, then immediately take the opposing view and use belittling, condescending, and overly-flowery language to make them feel like a moron." No thanks. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 04/21/2006 5:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sjofn
I'm not particularly interested in discussing this with you, since your standard tactic seems to be, "Figure out what someone thinks, then immediately take the opposing view and use belittling, condescending, and overly-flowery language to make them feel like a moron." No thanks.
I'm not interested in discussion. I was suggesting this so that people could organize their thoughts to make proactive action easier. If I was interested in discussion, I had plenty of opportunity.
As I said - mine field.
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Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Tasmanian_tiger
Warrior
300 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 5:34 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Well I was going to post something rebutting Kyrin here, but Aesoph has done a good job (probably better than I would have done) articulating my viewpoint.
I think it is especially important to emphasize that one person's anecdotal evidence on either side of a discussion like this isn't really terribly important or even relevant when discussing what is a trend in a large segment of population.
I could give my wife as an example of a woman gamer who *does* see the privilege problem in action (on a daily basis as an MMO player; in fact the problem with the environment is far, far worse in MMOs (and also better documented), probably in large part due to the anonymity offered by the internet) to 'cancel out' Mrs. Kyrin, but in the end, single examples don't really prove much of anything.
I read the essay, but I'm still reading all the replies.
About MMO's.. I'm not sure about which aspect you are talking. I have evolved into not mentioning my true gender (woman), due to the freaky whispers and talkings resulting from it, from random people. Luckily, I stumbled into a nice guild from the start.
As for emergetion into the gameworld. I will just now take WOW as an example. First of all, I don't mind men liking sparsely dressed warrior women and such. There was a time when I found it harder, but then I realized I had tastes too that men found odd. But, in WOW, where I played in an roleplaying realm, I had troubles with the realism of this. I remember finally getting together the pieces for an armor upgrade. Dressing my character with it, only to look where it was. Zooming in, finally seeing apparently, the chestpiece was a tiny bikini. (We had a lenghty IC conversation about it.) While male characters had a piece covering the entire chest. Um.. ok.. somehow my character didn't felt very protected.;p
Finally, I'm still trying to improve and learning with every session as a dm. I do stupid things too and I'm sure I've made my male population uncomfortable too. This essay has made me thinking, that the vice versa thing isn't happening in our group.. I would hate it if people felt uncomfortable. In the end, I just try to give everyone a good time (and adventure).
There has been some remarks made, on which I agree partly. I've been in bad groups (all male), good groups (all male), good groups (with females/males), ... Of course personalities have to click. But the writer of the essay makes a good point too, I've had a few groups fall apart, simply because the dm wasn't listening to any remarks (come to think of it, of the women in the group..) made. Though some problems weren't gender based, some were. (I mentioned some situation in a thread before.) For all that's worth, I think it helps to listen to your players. After that, you, as a dm, still can decide to go one way or another. (Like with the hack and slash remark. If you don't want to drop it, that's fine too. It's all relative from person to person.) But sometimes there are minor things (or biggies) that one can/willing to change, which if they weren't mentioned, might drive off people, ruin the adventure, take apart the group.
Of course, it's easier to write this down, then to do it..
quote:
Not at all. MY particular opposing viewpoint is, "Gaming IS a friendly environment for women, if they find a good group. So find one. Or (*gasp*) make one! Take control rather than expecting others (many of whom you probably wouldn't want to game with anyway) to change to suit you."
Um.. from what I have experienced in my environment (could differ from country to country); I wouldn't say directly no, but I did stumble in some annoying up until awkward to outright uncomfortable situations.
Some grab-outs:
"Hey look at this list!" Player or dm (was a while ago) hands out a list of possible cantrips, under which *ahem* vertilized egg cells into a womans womb.
->I was the only woman in this group, playing a female character. The other female character was played by a man. The other players found the list very funny. I was pretty much young and shy then, didn't say very much, left the group soon after.
"During the fight, Camilla (dm's character)'s armor and clothing gets torn to pieces. Every male character can't help to notice and stare," Dm saying this, I'm not sure how it went anymore, but the point was, that all the males were basically.. well hot over this woman.
I didn't like at all that the dm was basically taking over my palladins body. Staring ok, rest.. So I protested, wish I didn't.
The remark from him after that.. not sure how it translates, but he said that everyone in the group saw my pally was having an.. erm erection. And that because I was a woman, I couldn't know how a male really reacted to this kind of situation. (The irony that we (females in the group) never commented on his strange play of his female character.)
-> Me sinking through the ground, all the male population was lauging.. The DM was in fact, a good storyteller. Those remarks usually weren't that bad. Most of the males (if we are talking about male-female) make them unconsciously, fine to me. Just don't pull me into it. In the end, I left the group after a different discussion. Strangely, after I left, all the females left too. (Not saying I set the ritme.. just prooving I wasn't the only one with a problem.)
I did start my own group after one bad group and one good one. I searched for a long time to get in a group as a player, I wasn't really interested in DM-ing. I didn't comprehend the rules that well at that point. It was after the egg-cell group, I decided I would DM myself. Needles to say, I made an endless list of mistakes. I'm still learning up until today.;p
Up until a few years ago, my group was all the people I knew that played D&D (outside the few groups I had contacted through my FLGS). Now via via, more and more are turning up (which I find very funny) of all kinds. Balance, definitly more males in general. In my group, females > males. | |
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 5:52 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tasmanian_tiger
[brI read the essay, but I'm still reading all the replies.
About MMO's.. I'm not sure about which aspect you are talking. I have evolved into not mentioning my true gender (woman), due to the freaky whispers and talkings resulting from it, from random people. Luckily, I stumbled into a nice guild from the start.
As for emergetion into the gameworld. I will just now take WOW as an example. First of all, I don't mind men liking sparsely dressed warrior women and such. There was a time when I found it harder, but then I realized I had tastes too that men found odd. But, in WOW, where I played in an roleplaying realm, I had troubles with the realism of this. I remember finally getting together the pieces for an armor upgrade. Dressing my character with it, only to look where it was. Zooming in, finally seeing apparently, the chestpiece was a tiny bikini. (We had a lenghty IC conversation about it.) While male characters had a piece covering the entire chest. Um.. ok.. somehow my character didn't felt very protected.;p
You know, in some ways, that's my biggest problem with the men-get-plate-pants-women-get-plate-thongs thing. It totally shatters any suspension of disbelief I have. If a woman has enormous, gravity defying boobs, I KNOW that's completely and utterly ridiculous, and it takes me out of the game. If a woman is in a plate thong but a man wearing the SAME PIECE is in full-on pants, I know that's completely and utterly ridiculous.
I've heard some men try to defend the thong thing with, "Well, it's easier to move around in and they have MAGIC." This says to me that a) they have never worn a thong and b) are forgetting that if it was truly better to fight in a freaking thong, the men would be scampering around in them too. | |
God Save the Horn Players | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 6:04 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tasmanian_tiger
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Well I was going to post something rebutting Kyrin here, but Aesoph has done a good job (probably better than I would have done) articulating my viewpoint.
I think it is especially important to emphasize that one person's anecdotal evidence on either side of a discussion like this isn't really terribly important or even relevant when discussing what is a trend in a large segment of population.
I could give my wife as an example of a woman gamer who *does* see the privilege problem in action (on a daily basis as an MMO player; in fact the problem with the environment is far, far worse in MMOs (and also better documented), probably in large part due to the anonymity offered by the internet) to 'cancel out' Mrs. Kyrin, but in the end, single examples don't really prove much of anything.
I read the essay, but I'm still reading all the replies.
About MMO's.. I'm not sure about which aspect you are talking. I have evolved into not mentioning my true gender (woman), due to the freaky whispers and talkings resulting from it, from random people. Luckily, I stumbled into a nice guild from the start.
As for emergetion into the gameworld. I will just now take WOW as an example. First of all, I don't mind men liking sparsely dressed warrior women and such. There was a time when I found it harder, but then I realized I had tastes too that men found odd. But, in WOW, where I played in an roleplaying realm, I had troubles with the realism of this. I remember finally getting together the pieces for an armor upgrade. Dressing my character with it, only to look where it was. Zooming in, finally seeing apparently, the chestpiece was a tiny bikini. (We had a lenghty IC conversation about it.) While male characters had a piece covering the entire chest. Um.. ok.. somehow my character didn't felt very protected.;p
Finally, I'm still trying to improve and learning with every session as a dm. I do stupid things too and I'm sure I've made my male population uncomfortable too. This essay has made me thinking, that the vice versa thing isn't happening in our group.. I would hate it if people felt uncomfortable. In the end, I just try to give everyone a good time (and adventure).
There has been some remarks made, on which I agree partly. I've been in bad groups (all male), good groups (all male), good groups (with females/males), ... Of course personalities have to click. But the writer of the essay makes a good point too, I've had a few groups fall apart, simply because the dm wasn't listening to any remarks (come to think of it, of the women in the group..) made. Though some problems weren't gender based, some were. (I mentioned some situation in a thread before.) For all that's worth, I think it helps to listen to your players. After that, you, as a dm, still can decide to go one way or another. (Like with the hack and slash remark. If you don't want to drop it, that's fine too. It's all relative from person to person.) But sometimes there are minor things (or biggies) that one can/willing to change, which if they weren't mentioned, might drive off people, ruin the adventure, take apart the group.
Of course, it's easier to write this down, then to do it..
What I was talking about in the MMO world is pretty much what you describe, and I was thinking of WoW and Guild Wars particularly. The armor upgrade problem you describe, I think, is a big issue. It wouldn't be such a big | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4806 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 04/21/2006 10:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sjofn
I've heard some men try to defend the thong thing with, "Well, it's easier to move around in and they have MAGIC." This says to me that a) they have never worn a thong and b) are forgetting that if it was truly better to fight in a freaking thong, the men would be scampering around in them too.
Conan basically runs around in a thong (loincloth) [:D]
There really isn't any defensible argument for women to wear plate-armor thongs. Anyone who has any background in warfare or martial arts finds the concept ridiculous (except perhaps the hyper-hormonal men who program games...).
As to Christopher Groves' question...when a dead horse is dead, flogging it doesn't produce many results... | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 10:34 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
Yes, it's official ... kyrin is a net.kook.
We have official rules for this??????
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net.kook
quote:
Where do I apply?
You're not a net.kook. You're just a garden variety contrarian. Jim's net.kookdom has been established over the course of many months. (I began to suspect it in his freakout at Guy several months back.) Interestingly, it used to take years to get a full head of steam up for net.kookdom.Sigh. They grow up so fast. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 10:42 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Yes, sadly, being a true liberal means you're not allowed to ever have any fun at all.
You guys think he's kidding, but when we play DDM on League nights, we're always also either memorizing and quoting our Leninist propoganda at each other, scrambling to finalize the layout for Feminazi Quarterly, or plotting the downfall of various unnamed press secretaries, whom we have blamed for all the ills in the world. (Happily, it turns out that we were right in the latter, and now that he's gone, I, for one, have no doubt that everything will soon be hunky-dory again.)
(Oh, and does this count as Godwinization? Maybe Femigodwinization?) | |
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dagonet
Sergeant
442 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 10:53 PM |
| I'd just like to point out that kyrin's Hierarchs of Oppression (the people/groups who pit people against one another for fun and profit, would be laughing their @sses off reading this thread. If they exist, of course.
I mean, we can't even talk about a relatively straightforward problem (or at least a relatively straightforward presentation of a complex problem) without flying off on a score of different tangents, cutting one another down, dismissing the viewpoints of others, and so on and so forth. Heck, we don't need to be manipulated by shadowy outside forces--we're doing just FINE dividing ourselves.
Instead of spending all this time, effort, and aggravation tearing down every approach to this problem (you know, the one which started the thread--how to get more women interested in gaming?) which isn't our own personal solution, why aren't we trying to solve it from all directions at once? Not saying, "Sorry, Wayne (just for example), what you're talking about is a total waste of time," but instead, "Heya Wayne, you might be able to get better results if you added this in--it worked for me." Don't we accomplish more when we each do what we do best: I send impassioned letters to WotC explaining why I'm not buying their product (and encouraging all my gaming friends to do the same) until they tone down the sexist artwork), you work on getting your gaming group to understand that some of what they're doing/saying is really offensive to the woman sitting next to them, and that guy over there tracks down some of the big gaming conglomerate's employees on a minis-themed site (let's call it minminis) and expresses some concerns over the direction things seem to be going. And so on.
After all, we're (theoretically) all on the same side here; we want to bring more people into this game we happen to love. Let's try to remember that.
To kyrin (who may respond or not, as he likes), I've dealt with you in the past and I happen to like you. But reading over the entirety (the long, LONG entirety) of this thread, it looks to me like you came into this discussion itching for a fight. I don't know if it's as simple as irritation at seeing high-minded people tilting at (what you consider to be) windmills, or if something said early-on touched a raw nerve, or what, but I don't think you came into all this with neutrality.
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Sjofn
Sneak
141 Posts
| | 04/22/2006 12:50 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by zenthrus
Conan basically runs around in a thong (loincloth) [:D]
Oddly, this is the reason why when the Age of Conan MMO comes out, THEIR furry bikinis aren't going to bug me as much as the men are likely to be running around in them too. [)] | |
God Save the Horn Players | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 04/22/2006 3:20 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
Yes, it's official ... kyrin is a net.kook.
We have official rules for this??????
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net.kook
quote:
Where do I apply?
You're not a net.kook. You're just a garden variety contrarian. Jim's net.kookdom has been established over the course of many months. (I began to suspect it in his freakout at Guy several months back.) Interestingly, it used to take years to get a full head of steam up for net.kookdom.Sigh. They grow up so fast.
Wow, I never knew about that word. Hehe, quite appropriate. Although I think Wayne knew all along what he was doing starting this whole thing rolling. Sneaky guy. [)] It seems you might like to bait people. Or not. Perhaps net.kooks don't need baiting.
And lastly, Dagonet, you speak sense.
Let's try to make a more friendly and inclusive environment for gaming, and specifically for women in gaming (as this thread started out).
I have to say Tasmanian_Tiger's tale of her DM acting like some sexually repressed wierdo is really, I don't know, icky. I advocate that if those of us at such a table ever witness such behavior, we protest to the DM and tell him his depiction of his female characetr is wrong and that he needs to get a life.
I also advocate raising awareness where you can when you see inappropriate and unfair representation of women that could turn them off from gaming. So tell your friends that WoW has ludicrous thongs and bikini tops for female paladins (and full coverage for men) and cite that it's not fair. Write letters if you so please to companies that indulge in this sort of depiction and express your concern. And go on messageboards and raise the issue with others. Many game industry people read such boards and if they find such posts, some will be moved by them (although unfortunately, others will become entrenched because of them). But either way, you're creating awareness and sometimes, awareness can effect change. Good luck peeps. Still a lot of work to be done, but we'll get there. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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