jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
    
River City
 | | 05/16/2007 2:02 PM |
| Posted By ShadowLord XT on 05/16/2007 1:51 PM
And am I running my Bar Fight tourny just like Crushing Catacombs?
Yes, yes you are. Unless of course you don't show up like a no good Yellow bellied coward!
I won't be showing up like someone who is scheduled to work that Saturday. 
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2646 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 05/16/2007 2:59 PM |
| Posted By jacksonm on 05/16/2007 2:02 PM Posted By ShadowLord XT on 05/16/2007 1:51 PM
And am I running my Bar Fight tourny just like Crushing Catacombs? Yes, yes you are. Unless of course you don't show up like a no good Yellow bellied coward! I won't be showing up like someone who is scheduled to work that Saturday.
Then you can replace it with Kill or be Killed. I really don't feel like running a tourny with 4 people again. | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
Champion of Half-Golems
Knight of Golems
"This world is made for love and peace" - Trigun
"anyway..shadow..you've figured women out. KUDOS." - raye_kino16 | |
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puff_maul
Sneak
165 Posts
Winnipeg MB
| | 05/16/2007 4:51 PM |
| I happen to like the themed game concepts, even if I don't get a chance to show up for that many. Who doesn't like a good Bar Fight? I'll show up if you just tell me when....
Oh, and the "Kill or Be Killed" thing is just an idea for a themed game.....I have no idea how to run a tournament. I was hoping someone else would like the idea well enough to take care of the details. I'm still the Novice player, remember?
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2646 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 05/16/2007 7:10 PM |
| For those you like big numbers:
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/51/postid/724318/view/topic/Default.aspx
For those who don't...as you were. | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
Champion of Half-Golems
Knight of Golems
"This world is made for love and peace" - Trigun
"anyway..shadow..you've figured women out. KUDOS." - raye_kino16 | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 05/16/2007 8:24 PM |
| If you don't want to run it I'm sure someone else will. I.E. Scott, he's got plenty of spare time to do it. 
As long as everyone is clear on the rules tournaments can more or less run themselves.
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 05/16/2007 8:28 PM |
| | In the Dreamblade news front it's been decided there will be no Dreamblde this Friday. | | | |
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Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
| | 05/16/2007 8:30 PM |
| | Grr. How come? | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 05/16/2007 9:15 PM |
| | Ask Rob, he made the call. | | | |
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The Beer Baron
Underboss
1553 Posts
"Champion of the Centaur Commander. Knight of the Gnoll Druid. Vindicated Champion of the Dragon Wrought Kobold!
| | 05/16/2007 10:00 PM |
| | Keycon is on, it's a long weekend, and it didn't look like there would be the required 4 people. I haven't notifyed Tyler yet (about switching his hours), so if things change it isn't to late yet. | |
"GameKnight Games and Cool Stuff
Winnipeg's source for RPGs and minis!"
www.gameknight.ca | |
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dorge
Sergeant
417 Posts
| | 05/16/2007 10:18 PM |
| | Is it a long weekend on the friday or the monday? | |
SLIPKNOT-WAIT & BLEED
SLIPKNOT-(SIC) | |
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The Beer Baron
Underboss
1553 Posts
"Champion of the Centaur Commander. Knight of the Gnoll Druid. Vindicated Champion of the Dragon Wrought Kobold!
| | 05/16/2007 10:32 PM |
| | Monday we're closed. Yay!!!! | |
"GameKnight Games and Cool Stuff
Winnipeg's source for RPGs and minis!"
www.gameknight.ca | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 05/17/2007 8:37 AM |
| Sealed DDM tonight, and don't forget I'm running a 200 point sanctioned event this Saturday at 1 PM.
And don't forget next Saturday is the Star Wars minis Alliance and Empire release event. There'll be hot dogs and maybe even the t-shirts will be ready for everyone to wear. | | | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 05/17/2007 2:56 PM |
| | Headed down to Game Knight to hang out and perhaps play some minis. See you all there. | | | |
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2646 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 05/17/2007 3:54 PM |
| Have fun guys. I really don't feel like spending $30. Plus, I doubt I'd be able to make it in time.
Please feed my Blood Golem and tell it I'm sorry and that I'll try to pick it up next Thrusday. | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
Champion of Half-Golems
Knight of Golems
"This world is made for love and peace" - Trigun
"anyway..shadow..you've figured women out. KUDOS." - raye_kino16 | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 05/18/2007 1:19 PM |
| Looks like we're back in business.
6 people out for minis last night, Rob, Jory, Richard, Garret, Tom, and myself. I went 3-0 and overall everyone got good pulls. Some trades were made, good times.
Also Rob had 4 people out for his DDM demo so hopefully we'll see them out for future tournaments.
Oh yeah, one more plug for my 200 point tournament tomorrow for those of you not going to Keycon. | | | |
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Idzy
Commander
3082 Posts
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
| | 05/18/2007 1:26 PM |
| | Yeah last night was good fun, I had great pulls and even managed to place higher than Richard after beating him, even if we were 4th and 5th. | |
Champion of Champions (for all races! even Gnomes  )
Reference Thread
Winnipeg Gryphon Cavalry Forums
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Omand
Commander
3120 Posts
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
| | 05/18/2007 6:35 PM |
| Posted By Omand on 05/18/2007 6:32 PM Hello, Dare I ask what Richard pulled? It evidently was not a Large Black Dragon. Any details on pulls to share? Cheers
Remind me not to hire you find my missing cat if he ever disappears (hopefully not). Your evidence is sadly incorrect. I pulled a Large Black Dragon and Pentifex. Unfortunately Blackie came down with a bad case of letsfailmoraleby1-icitis. Along with a few other figures in my warband. It's tough to win when you go 2 for 10 on morale saves.
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 05/18/2007 6:47 PM |
| Lets see if I can remember correctly. As Richard mentioned he had the LBD and Pentifex Monolith, I had the Large Brass Dragon and Blood Golem of Hextor, Rob had a Wizard of Turmish and Large Ice Elemental, Jory had an Ultroloth and Thrall of Blackrazor, Tom had a Bone Naga and Virtuous Charger, and Garret pulled a Beholder Lich and Lyrander Skyfire Captain.
I ended up giving most of my commons and uncommons to the new players. Hopefully it'll help them to build some warbands and they start comming out to tournaments.
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Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
| | 05/19/2007 9:09 AM |
| | You did remember correctly. We gonna have a good tonight today or a crappy one because of may long weekend? | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 05/19/2007 3:18 PM |
| Good day I would say.
9 people out to play today, almost double digits 2 Saturdays in a row. Scott, Richard, Chris L, Garret, Tom, Kevin, Nico, Andy, and in his first tournament Christophe. Both Richard and Chris L went 3-0 so congratulations to them. A Van Richten and Wizard of Turmish were their rewards, the rest of the minis drafted to the field.
And a good time had by all.
Hopefully we get a good turnout for next Saturday's Alliance and Empire release event and the special Huges requred 200 point DDM tournament. | | | |
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Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
| | 05/19/2007 3:51 PM |
| | Yup, nine people was a pleasant surprise. I was somewhat concerned that between keycon and it being may long weeked we'd have a lousy turnout, but nine was definitely nice. So was not going 1-2. | |
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Omand
Commander
3120 Posts
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
| | 05/19/2007 6:07 PM |
| Hello,
Yes, it was a good afternoon in my opinon as well. Of course, going 3-0 was a nice feeling, but two out of three of my games could have gone either way, so it was not a sure thing.
For reference (if anyone cares), I was playing:
Cleric of Syreth
Couatl
Tordek, Dwarf Champion
Sacred Watcher x 2
Devotee of the Silver Flame
Warforged Scout
First game vs Nico (with a band I provided him with). He had:
Pit Fiend
Ice Devil
Azer Raider
Greenspawn Sneak
3 x Goblin Skirmisher
Second game vs Christofe (sorry if the spelling is off). He had:
Solar
Cleric of Syreth
Cormyrean War Wizard
Combat Medic
Third game vs Andrew. He had:
Cleric of Sune
Large Astral Construct
Stormrage Shambler
Bralani Eladrin
Wild Elf Warsinger
Wild Elf Barbarian
Good rolls helped me out overall, although I only rolled one 20 in all.
While I still will be missing a few Thursdays, it was nice to be back skirmishing. Hope to see lots of people out for the other games I make it to.
Cheers
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Successful Trades: 77 * Pending Trades: 0 * Bad Trades: KONG (B.W.)
Trade History * Trading Thread * Sales Thread * Winnipeg Meetingplace | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 05/20/2007 8:48 AM |
| | One of the good things about larger turnouts is you tend to get a variety of warbands which always makes things more entertaining. | | | |
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Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
| | 05/20/2007 11:33 AM |
| Yeah. More people means more warbands which means you have to build more versatile warbands yourself since you're more likely to end up facing a bad matchup. Although only still only playing three games means you can always hope to avoid the bad matchups.
In other news, 8 sets down, 4 to go in the great counting of minis. | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 05/20/2007 11:37 AM |
| | We can't make things too easy on you. | | | |
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nervo
Sneak
56 Posts
Ellice
| | 05/23/2007 3:11 AM |
| Posted By jacksonm on 05/15/2007 7:15 AM
Informal poll time.
I'm starting to think ahead to the July schedule and in specific where the Ladder League will fall. What would your preference be for the summer months and how the league is run, 1) continue as is running one thursday and 1 saturday session each month, 2) just 1 thursday session a month, or 3) just a single saturday session per month?
The option I'm thinking of is perhaps running the 2 sessions per month but saying that unless we get 8 people it won't count againt one of the 12 league sessions. Players attending would still get their bonus points and compete against each other in the ladder moving up and down but an additional league session would be added at the end. In essence it would be a mini bonus session for the 4-7 players in attendance.
If only 1-3 players show up they would get their bonus points and another league session would be scheduled down the line to make up for it.
Let me know what you think. Thursdays and saturdays are both fine with me, but I have way too much free time on my hands.
I really enjoy playing games in a competetive format. From my youth I have both played in and organized rated chess tournaments, so I can appreciate the difficulties of organizing such events as well as identify with the frustrations of players when everything doesn't run smoothly. I've also played DND for 20+ years but have just gotten into the Minis game and enjoy it immensely. However, I believe that the game is in it's infancy when it comes tournament practise, so I would like to offer some suggestions taken from studying a few hundred years of chess organizing.
I think that the league should last as long as it was originally intended to. In the interest of fairness, once it's begun the rules shouldn't be changed at all. Players who show up should be rewarded for showing up and players who do not show up should not get an extra chance to get to the top of the ladder. That's probably the best way to encourage participation. Another suggestion I have is that the league runs on either thurdsays or saturdays but not both, unless you want both a thursday league and a saturday league. Saturday would probably be the best day, simply because more people will have free time.
The other major consideration is with prizing. One thing that every chess tournament has is a complete and transparent breakdown of exactly how much money was collected in entry fees and where it all goes to, and winners are guaranteed to recieve a certain portion of that money. One of the major frustrations of playing in DDM tournaments for me is not knowing what will be my reward will be if I should happen to win. I admit it. I'm chasing the rares. The first time I won all three games (I think it was while the last league was running) I got a couple of repaints for an uncommon I already had and an epic card for a rare I don't have. Now this was after spending about forty or fifty bucks on entry fees and watching other people go 3-0 and get rares. That's around the time I decided to only attend league games, reasoning that if I consistently played well in every session I would stand a good chance of winning one of the guaranteed prizes.
Sure enough, I did win two boosters and was reasonably satisfied with my performance. After all, the superior player, whom I was unable to defeat, had won. However, his margin of victory, despite the fact that I had played in six sessions and he only four, was due to two rules that were changed after I had invested in two boosters and the first league day had been played. Both rule changes had to do with scoring league points. The first was that people got 3 points for not participating in a session. The second was that the last session was worth double points. I got second place because of those two rules changes that came after I had invested my $36.Â
Please don't change any of the rules. This tournament is off to a great start, and it's a big improvement on the last one, so the number one priority should be consistency. If the participants had fun and are happy when they leave regardless of their results, then the event is a success.
Now, if I was running a league, here's what I'd do. It would take place on saturdays. I'd start it with a sealed 200 point tournament, player's choice of boosters. It would take place just after a prerelease, and I'd use it as a tie in, saying that players can join the league using their pulls from the prerelease. Players use the same warband and map for each game. The tournament director plays if there are an odd number of players, but takes all byes, gaining no points for byes. All games are played to 200 points, with a one hour time limit per game. Tiebreaks are based on aggregate point totals, because three wins by a 199-50 margin should weigh more than three wins by a 200-199 margin.Â
Guarantee a minimum prize of a rare for first place, and two minis per player, basically a booster draft supplemented by retailer kits. Guarantee to add another booster for each additional eight players, with first place getting his pick of two or more rares. Go as sparingly on the repaints as you can, saving them for later so that there can be more of a selection and the newbies can get something different each week, but always give away the most recent repaints first.
The draft at the end is important, because each player has the option of swapping their drafted pieces onto their roster on a one for one basis. Pieces need not be swapped in immediately but can be held in reserve indefinitely. However, a piece that has been swapped out of the roster can never be returned. The only other way to get new pieces into your warband is to start over by replacing your entire roster with two new sealed boosters, but you retain your place on the ladder in addition to all miniatures in your pool of draft reserves that may be swapped onto your roster at any time.
The first session is used to determine standing just like in the current league format, and subsequent sessions use the same format for determining pairings, with the only difference being the aggregate tiebreaks.Â
Each league "season" begins two saturdays after a prerelease event, with three games played every second saturday. On the last session before a prerelease, a grand prize would be awarded based on total score for the season. Each player gets one point for each win and no points for a loss, and may discount his worst two performances including no shows. Prizes are awarded to first, second and third place.
The league continues in perpetuity, as long as interest is maintained.
I'm interested in hearing all of your thoughts about it.
-Jeff
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Champion of the Doomdreamer (RTTTOEE) | |
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Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
| | 05/23/2007 7:22 AM |
| The wheel from the truck goes round and round, round and round, the wheel from the truck goes round and round, too bad it's no longer attached to the truck.
Fortunately, it wasn't my tire. But the tire from the truck managed to roll quite a ways down the road (it was still going when I turned off) without falling over. The guy managed to stop his pickup ok, so don't think anyone was hurt. But seeing a three wheeled vehicle with the fourth tire rolling down the road was certainly an interesting start to my morning. | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 05/23/2007 9:24 AM |
| The league will run 12 official sessions, how many weeks those official sessions take will depend on attendance. If less than half the people enrolled attend I don't think that should count as an official session.
If Saturday's are the more popular option then we can do the league sessions then. As it stands now the plan is to do them Thursdays and Saturdays as that's what Scott wanted when we first started the leagues.
A lot of the ideas you bring up are things that were discussed and taken into consideration as I built this League and suggested the last one.
Going with the minis you got at the prerelease doesn't seem like a good option to build a League on for me, it rewards the people who happened to get good pulls again. What happens to those who didn't like what they pulled? Money is tight around release time, a lot of players won't be able to swing buying 2 new boosters to replace the minis they didn't like. One of the biggest complaints from the previous sealed league we did was the cost to join, a lot of the younger players just can't afford to buy the boosters needed to keep up.
It's been hard enough to get a good atendance out for a regular sealed event lately, even right after a new set is released. Which is why we've cut back to only doing limited events every other month.
As for prizes I can't really speak to that too much, ultimately Scott is running the show there. He has rent to make, bills to pay, so he can't give the store away. The general policy has always been half the fees taken in go back toward prize support. With a booster being about $15 six people are needed to give one out.
The aggregate part of your league proposal seems interesting. Certainly something we could look into for the future.
For now though I'm just conceared with seeing how this League plays out. Who knows what the future will bring. | | | |
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nervo
Sneak
56 Posts
Ellice
| | 05/23/2007 4:07 PM |
| As far as I'm concerned, a repainted common or uncommon mini and an epic card from a retail kit is an unacceptable prize for coming in first place in a tournament, because the value of the prize is less than the entry fee. If that prize policy is set in stone, I suppose I can turn around and leave if there are fewer than six players in attendance. It's already the reason why I no longer attend theme events and unsanctioned events other than league. The truth is, less traffic in the store means I spend less money there. A lot less.
I don't mind chipping in for rent for a place to play games, and I'm not suggesting that Scott give away the store, but here's how it is right now, with $5 entry fees. I don't know exactly how much the retailer kits costs, but I'm ballparking them at around $12 for 12 minis, and assuming that the boosters are $16 when I do the following calculations. Please let me know if I'm way off.
4 players = $20, total prizes amount to 5 repaints (the winner gets 2), and four epic cards. Maybe first place gets value for their entry fee if the repaints are sought after uncommons. And what is the total cost of all the prizes? Probably about five bucks. Total prize fund = 25% of entry fees.
5 players = $25, total prizes amount to six repaints (winner gets 2), 5 epic cards. Once again the first place winner is lucky to get value for the entry fee, and the prizes cost maybe six bucks. Total prize fund = 24% of entry fees
6 players = $30, and finally the prizes mean something to players. One booster and five or six repaints. The winner is guaranteed to double his entry fee with at least a rare if the booster gets drafted, or triple it if he keeps the booster, and we're looking at around $22 in prizes. Total prize fund = 73% of entry fees
7 players = $35, one booster and 7 repaints for prizes, let's say, $23 in prizes, with the prize fund being 66% of entry fees.
8 players = $40, one booster, 8 repaints, $ 24 in prizes, prize fund is 60% of entry fees.
9 players = $45, two boosters and 9 repaints, prize value shoots up to $41 bucks or so. Prize fund is 91% of entry fees.
Every dollar of the entry fees gets put back into gameknight in one way or another, but the total value to players varies wildly from session to session, so that's why I suggest a league where the entry fees are six dollars per player per session, one dollar going toward rent, one dollar toward the grand prize (case credit perhaps) and four dollars per entry fee devoted to boosters and retailer kits. This way, it benefits everybody if more players show up. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is too. If Scott could guarantee at least a booster draft for a four player turnout, I would be willing as a consumer to pay in advance for every Thursday and Saturday game session of every month. That will mean that since I'll be in there twice a week, it will usually be the most convenient place to buy all of my boosters.
As far as building teams from sealed boosters goes, one of the things I found exciting about the last league was that everybody could play a consistent and recognizable roster with unique synergies. My warband changed very little over the course of the tournament, and I found it satisfying when my opponents would say, "oh no not these guys again," as they sat down to play. I'm sure a few of you heard similar comments about your warbands. It's the closest thing to the satisfaction a player in the RPG gets when told by a fellow player that their character kicks butt and they role play it well.
I know that during last league, some people didn't like their pulls and they bought new boosters to revamp their warbands many times so I'm allowing for that too. My reasoning behind allowing people to use their pulls from prerelease events goes something like this. You've got 20+ people there who have just bought two boosters and enjoyed spending a Saturday afternoon gaming. Sometime during the prerelease, before the playoffs, let people know that if they had a fun time, they should "come back in two weeks for the league. Bring $6 and the same minis from your boosters today, or if you prefer you can start with two new boosters." I suspect it would be a fairly easy sell, because it creates instant continuity for the players, reflecting the experience of character building in the D&D RPG.
I would be interested in seeing how many people we could get coming back every two weeks. Remember, not only does every dollar of the entry fees get spent in the store, the more traffic that you generate on a regular basis the more boosters you will sell. | |
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Champion of the Doomdreamer (RTTTOEE) | |
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Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
| | 05/23/2007 7:59 PM |
| So who's coming for some epic smiting tomorrow?
Can someone lend me an epic guen card?
Along the same line, does anyone have an epic guen card, epic storm archer card, aspect of hextor, or dragonne for trade? | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 05/23/2007 8:35 PM |
| Posted By Richard II on 05/23/2007 7:59 PM
So who's coming for some epic smiting tomorrow?
Can someone lend me an epic guen card?
Along the same line, does anyone have an epic guen card, epic storm archer card, aspect of hextor, or dragonne for trade? I won't be able to make it out Thursday unfortunatly. I will be there Saturday to run the Star Wars release event and the DDM theme game.
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dorge
Sergeant
417 Posts
| | 05/23/2007 10:12 PM |
| Posted By Richard II on 05/23/2007 7:59 PM
So who's coming for some epic smiting tomorrow?
Can someone lend me an epic guen card?
Along the same line, does anyone have an epic guen card, epic storm archer card, aspect of hextor, or dragonne for trade?
I might be willing to part with my 2nd aspect of hextor...do you have a maralith for trade.(Is that a fair trade?) | |
SLIPKNOT-WAIT & BLEED
SLIPKNOT-(SIC) | |
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Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
| | 05/24/2007 5:55 AM |
| Slacker Mike.
Redcloak is awesome. | |
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Idzy
Commander
3082 Posts
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 05/24/2007 7:34 AM |
| | Hey, I can't make it out to every tournament, just most of them it seems. | | | |
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Idzy
Commander
3082 Posts
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
| | 05/24/2007 7:35 AM |
| Nervo I believe the league kits cost about $15 each and I know for sure they only come with 7 repaints. So your estimates are off a bit  | |
Champion of Champions (for all races! even Gnomes )
Reference Thread
Winnipeg Gryphon Cavalry Forums
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Idzy
Commander
3082 Posts
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
| | 05/24/2007 7:47 AM |
| So going by your system.
repaints being worth about $1.50 and epics about $0.50
4 players = $20, total prizes amount to 5 repaints (the winner gets 2), and four epic cards. Maybe first place gets value for their entry fee if the repaints are sought after uncommons. And what is the total cost of all the prizes? Probably about $9.50. Total prize fund = 47.5% of entry fees.
5 players = $25, total prizes amount to six repaints (winner gets 2), 5 epic cards. Once again the first place winner is lucky to get value for the entry fee, and the prizes cost maybe $11.50. Total prize fund = 46% of entry fees
6 players = $30, and finally the prizes mean something to players. One booster and five or six repaints. The winner is guaranteed to double his entry fee with at least a rare if the booster gets drafted, or triple it if he keeps the booster, and we're looking at around $25.50 - 27 in prizes. Total prize fund = 85 - 90% of entry fees
7 players = $35, one booster and 7 repaints for prizes, let's say, $29 in prizes, with the prize fund being 82% of entry fees.
8 players = $40, one booster, 8 repaints, $Â 31 in prizes, prize fund is 77.5% of entry fees.
9 players = $45, two boosters and 9 repaints, prize value shoots up to $48 bucks or so. Prize fund is 107% of entry fees.
Those calculations all have boosters costing $15 and I doubt Scott pays more than about 10 wholesale for them, but it is still a $15 dollar sale that is lost each time one is given away.
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Champion of Champions (for all races! even Gnomes )
Reference Thread
Winnipeg Gryphon Cavalry Forums
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 05/24/2007 8:09 AM |
| Just throwing this out there back in the rent category to look at it this way. If $1 from each entry fee goes to paying the rent and the rest to prizes lets do a little theoretical math there.
Let's say for the heck of it the average tornament ends up with 10 players meaning 10 dollars in rent money. In an average month there are maybe 9 DDM tournaments so that would be $90 in rent money. Toss in the other Hero Clix, Dreamblade and Star Wars Events and maybe it would be another 30, maybe. So let's say it's $120 for rent each month. I'm pretty sure Scott is paying more than that to rent the basement each month, not to mention you have to factor in for utilities etc....
There is one very key factor that is missing in the equation though, what is the service of running and hosting these events worth? Sure a part of it is just what it takes to promote the business but I would say Game Knight goes a step and more beyond what most places do which is why events are still run there. | | | |
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Idzy
Commander
3082 Posts
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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