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Net-Zumi
Skirmisher
15 Posts
    
 | | 03/30/2006 2:17 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by zenthrus
Anywho, if Ghandi is going to hell what chance do the rest of us have[?]
I think that all fringes on how we feel about Jesus.
Heh, I grew up in Southern Utah. Cedar City and then later St. George(Now I'm in New Mexico, Contemplating which college to attend). Which given isn't to bad, however the entire area or nearly all of it was LDS. Mormon if you will.
Now as it where I am not a Theistic individual, however one can't deny that it is nearly every where. I had the (mis)fortune of living near a very proper and zealous family, a few actually. At the time I was around 13 maybe 14. Just getting into the game, learning it all. Heh, bad idea to let the neighbors know. Needless to say I suffered some amount of harrasment on the whole idea of devil worship and the what not.
No member of my immedate family was attending a church, yet we still recieved very vocal phone calls. And the occasional 'lost' priest. Who was more than happy to discuss the evils of this activity.
Moreover, I didn't really feel to bad about this. I marked these guys down as crazed and went on with my day to day life.
I do feel bad for the local game shop owner though. He in his early years recieved a lot of unneccasary shit from his 'ward' about his choice in career and his willingness to sell and allow the kids a place to play. As I understood it he downplayed some of the things that he was subjected to, and I do believe that he occasionally found a burnt PHB on his front lawn.
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The Saint of Conformity | |
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Vimes
Warrior
259 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 3:37 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Count Dooku
- Spells and the verbal components are copied directly out of "real" spellbooks like the Necronomicon.
Okay... and I thought having to keep track of the loot was time consuming some games
- A Wee-Jee Board is used (sorry I cant spell the word)
Ouija is the correct spelling, Man, my luck I'd get the spirit of someone even more warped than me..
- Players light candles and have to wear black
Well, they say black is slimming, as for the candles.. that would make rolling dice even harder.. I use black dice...
- Players run around the woods, sewers, abandoned buildings pretending to really be their characters.
Sadly.. I can say this one is true.. due to first hand knowledge. I knew a guy that started to beleive he was his character. He would dress and talk as he thought his character would.. and refused to answer to any name but his character name.. he was like this for years until he was forced to get the help he desperately needed.
My mother was one of those, who believed RPG's were evil.. until I asked to have my gaming group over and we played a game so she could see what it was all about... When she saw how the game was played, she actually started asking about how my games went, and wanted to know more about the types of games we played. | |
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Avatar of the Irrelevant
Diomedes
Commander
3173 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 10:45 AM |
| I guess I'd join the ranks of those who lived in a household where D&D was pretty much worse than drugs or sexual promiscuity (both of those were easily understood and dealt with... problems of the corrupted fallen body... D&D was a problem of the mind and much more serious).
When I first stumbled over D&D, I found out that I had been playing RPGs for years and just didn't know it. We played a Star Trek game where you fired phasers as robots and such that my friends and I had made up. Stumbling across D&D was like this "oooh" moment where you realize that this is the actual well thought out version of what you've been up to. It was like scribbling on a napkin for years and then taking a trip to the art museum and seeing a Renoir.
Eagerly taking it home I showed it to my parents only to get the worst reaction imaginable. Every one of my friend's parents were called and informed of the devilry at work. I was sat down with a man who had facial deformities who told me (and I believe he was deadly serious) that he got that way from playing D&D.
Well, time passed and I eventually started playing the darn game anyhow. I resented my parents for it for a while. When I got to college I started sticking D&D posters on my walls (oooh, I was /such/ a rebel).
Now a days I've calmed down a lot. I've tried broaching the matter with my parents, but I've just come to appreciate that this is one thing I simply cannot change. For them, it's an act of faith. I can not ask them to change their views, each time they deride it, it's another re-affirmation of their strength and convictions.
So I'm in a different place now than I was in my youth, but I've just grown to learn that it's something I have to accept about other people. I accept that my parents will never understand my hobbies, but I can still have a relationship with them. They've grown to accept that I associate myself with the devil, but I'm still capable of doing good things. In the end I just see it as one more way that the world is a fabulously diverse place where people never agree with you, but you can still get by if you work at it ;p
-Diomedes
EDIT: Sorry, I rambled and never clearly stated my point at the end like I wanted to. If you go about trying to change your friends and family, you're probably just going to be smacking your head into a wall, not to mention missing out on a great family relationship. Just my experiences, your millage may vary. | |
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FeranEldritchKnight
Sergeant
385 Posts
Kansas City, MO USA
| | 03/30/2006 10:54 AM |
| The story I am about to relate comes second-hand from my mother, aunt and two cousins, but they swear/swore it to be true. My cousins who are somewhat older than me played D&D back around 1984. The older of the two boys began selling his lunch at school to generate funds for gaming. It was shortly afterward that my aunt felt these books were evil and should be destroyed. Upon placing a book upon her BBQ grill, she found the book would not catch fire. She interpreted this as a sign of evil, as fire is the devil's ally. My aunt called my mother for assistance. When they attempted to tear up the books, they would not tear until my aunt started playing her "Elvis sings Gospel" records. (These were the only religious albums she had- my aunt had a problem with false idols of Elvis Presley everywhere- but that's another issue.) They all four tore the books apart and placed them in the trash. Later, they saw some of the pages had repaired themselves, as if by magic. Mostly is seems the "healing" occured on pictures of wizards and demons. Hence, my mother was convinced that the demons' names were real demons' names, and merely saying them outloud could possibly summon them. Also, these books somehow teleported themselves under the speakers which was blaring out Holy Elvis. the books were later put in the trash outside, ending the "evil". After this spiritual battle, my mother set down a few rules. First, never play D&D. It's evil. Second, don't watch the D&D cartoon. It's also evil, as well as Thundercats (because Mum-Ra casts a spell to transform) and a few other select cartoons for similar reasons.
But clearly the story isn't over there, or I wouldn't be posting here. As I got older, I found friends who just happened to play D&D. Every time someone would offer to teach me, I would decline as D&D=evil. I even had one friend offer to remove the magic and devils/demons to appease me, but I would not budge. I began playing HeroQuest, which led to Dragon Strike and Dragon Quest (which was introductory D&D, little did I know then.) Eventually, my best friend got a huge stack of 2e books for his birthday. My mother had passed away a year or so before, and so I decided to play as long as evil outsiders were left out. I eventually caved on this, as killing evil outsiders was all I would do with them. Now, many years later, I regret not playing sooner, but I can look back and see the other groups I would have played with were poor examples of what the game would offer and I'm glad to have not played with those players- God only knows what bad habits I would have picked up. | |
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orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 10:57 AM |
| | Well, I think the Church, while I have nothing against it, doesn't have all the facts sometimes before it condemns something. | |
My Trading Thread | |
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Avatar of the Irrelevant
Diomedes
Commander
3173 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 11:03 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by orcmonk220
Well, I think the Church, while I have nothing against it, doesn't have all the facts sometimes before it condemns something.
But faith doesn't need facts. That's the thing about faith. Hence in many cases, tossing out the facts won't change someone's faith.
-Diomedes | |
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Zenako
Commander
3467 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 1:06 PM |
| Sounds like I had the flip side of the coin from many of the other posters on this thread. While attending a Congregational Church during my early years, we never avoided things like this. (Of course D&D did not exist back then (60's and early 70's), but we did play lots of games, read the LotR and Hobbit, even did plays and puppets shows about them, with the heavy support of mom in the whole exercise. (She had read all the books as well.) When I brought home the game the first winter of college (75') the family was among the first ones to play. Mom, Sister and little brother all created characters and went through my home made dungeon (this was before modules were being published since this was also about the time Greyhawk was coming out). I still remember the name my Mom gave her Fighter character, WayneJo (as in John Wayne).
We had always been involved in fantasy and games of some sort, so I have a very hard time relating personally to all those with sad tales of close minded people while growing up. I have explained the concept of the game countless times and have found that certain analogies work best. Frankly something like the LoTR was about the best analogy in most cases. Each person is playing / controlling one of the fellowship, and the DM is the author who controls the plot and the monsters.
Now my mom is perhaps atypical in other ways as well, since she is/was a serious Trekkie and even went to some local conventions to meet some of the actors and visit the vendors. She has her own collection additions, including hundreds and hundreds of Barbie type dolls, as well as most Star Trek Action Figures made. She has notebooks full of listings. The apple did not fall far from the tree in this case.... | |
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| The Mighty
jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 1:29 PM |
| I grew up in a home where religion wasn't an issue. Not against, not for, just didn't have it. Don't confuse that with not knowing about it. We occasionally did church things with friends/family, but we just didn't believe in it or give it too much thought.
That aside, my entire family looks at me cross-eyed because i play games that aren't poker and don't have a Major League. | | | |
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Vash
Underboss
1995 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 1:39 PM |
| | So show them Three-Dragon Ante, tell them about DDM league play and shut them up [:o)][:P] | |
Champion of the Alhoon and my called shot for Unhallowed
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scifirules
Sergeant
354 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 3:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Felagund
"Knives are more efficient." That's what I would have said. [:D]
That's great! I wish I could've thought of that! [:D] | |
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shadroth
Warrior
210 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 4:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
When I brought home the game the first winter of college (75') the family was among the first ones to play.
That's one of the most amazing stories I've heard in a while, probably because my experience was almost exactly opposite. If makes it feel like your story transpired in an alternate dimension!
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Count Dooku
Commander
4636 Posts
New York
| | 03/30/2006 4:13 PM |
| I actually started playing D&D because it was a part of my childhood since I was born (1975).
My father was into D&D and he would tell me bedtime stories of heroes and monsters and dragons. He was telling me what happened in his games.
As I got older he used He-Man or D&D action figures and would play with me. He showed me that when the characters fight you needed to foll dice to see who won.
As I got older still the rules got more complicated.
When I was 10 I was brought to my dad's game for the 1st time so I could see. I remember an entire wall made up of shelves of minis (made of lead and painted).
At 12 my Dad DMed for me and my brother and some of my friends.
So D&D was always there growing up.
People talking about it being satanic and what-not was on the news and stuff durring the 80s...but my dad just told me some people are stupid and they are wrong. I thought it was odd but thats it..I just kept playing.
Not until Jr.Highschool was I wise enough to realize that gamers were a REALLY small minority..and most people who didnt play had ZERO clue how to or what it even was. See my posts above for examples.
I fell very blessed that my parents turned me on to the game instead of me having to hide it from them.
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 03/30/2006 11:27 PM |
| Ok
First, I happen to be mormon. I'm not saying anyone was insulting mormons, because I don't think they were, but I feel I should state there are Mormon gamers out there. Mormon's get a bad reputation as "zealot's", and I just wanted to say that almost all mormon's I've met (which is a lot) have no problem with me playing D&D from a religious standpoint. Most people I meet (not just Mormons) are a little wierded out by ME, as I'm a proud geek, who does not hide it. I wear Superman under my button up shirt, and have D&D calendars at work. I am an Uber-geek (now with Umlaut's!) and that is a bit disconcerting. I just wanted to (hopefully) show the other side of the story.
Second, my parents, who aren't Mormon, had the same reaction almost everyone close to me has had. They're not so sure about it, then they watch a session, and see it's just a bunch of geeks around a table, instead of a TV or computer. I always try to point out the positive aspects (social interaction, reading and math as enjoyable aspects, tactical analysis, artistic expression), and have had no problems after the inital hesitation. | |
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smilinIrish
Sergeant
908 Posts
| | 03/31/2006 12:01 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Amator
I'm Eastern Orthodox, and have never had a problem. One of my local priests played D&D in high school and the other probably spent at least four figures in D&D books and MTG cards over the years for his five adult children when raising them. Of course, he used to read Tolkien to his children from birth, so I guess he knew they'd grow up with a healthy appreciation for fantasy.
Interstingly enough, so am I. Even more interesting, I found the Orthodox church through D&D. That's right, D&D led me back to Christ. I was a theology student at Oral Roberts University when I decided I wasn't sure about the church anymore. Thousands of denominations, many very different from each other. Wanted to explore something traditional. Left school, moved to Houston TX, and proceeded to drink and try to get laid for about 2 years. Bought a PHB at a bookstore, few months later, met a guy who invited me to play. After sessions he would share his Orthodox Faith. I realized he had what I was missing, and was baptized on Holy Saturday 1998. He is my Godfather and my DM (until recently).
That said, neither of us ever discussed D&D around church friends. Not sure what response I would get. However, I have a gamer (er, bun) in the oven, and as I am a chantor at my church and very involved, I will eventually find out people's reaction when, in a few years, my little gamer talks about it with friends at church. | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3858 Posts
Adelaide
| | 03/31/2006 12:02 AM |
| I remember one campaign, we were playing in a guys back yard shed, and his mum was curious so came in to watch. Within an hour she said 'I`m playing too' and rolled up a character [:)]. She stayed with the campaign for the entire time which was approx 18 months.
Was a blast to see her change for disdain to instant addict. | |
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scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 03/31/2006 1:25 AM |
| I am a Christian(I don't adhere to a denomination, but my beliefs are best reflected by the Presbyterian Church in America), and I play D&D. In fact, my entire gaming group (who are also my group of friends)are Christians. My parents are Christians, and they didn't approve until I talked to them about it and explained the game.
Most of the people who think D&D is evil are the ones who know almost nothing about it, and so they just assume that all the things they hear about it are true. The primary concern is that D&D is a gateway to witchcraft or the like, or that it actually involves it.
I understand the line between fantasy and reality, and I don't think that D&D is a threat to my spirituality. As in any fiction, there are elements of D&D that must be taken hypothetically, in order to advance the story. In a fiction, The author is not necessarily saying that the things they write are true, and you don't have to take them as such. They are just there for the sake of telling the story. It's fiction.
Elements of D&D such as the polythiesm that exist in every campaign setting, magic use, and the idea that good and evil are equal are all things that go against my beliefs. I do not embrace these ideas by playing D&D, because I know that D&D is not the real world or the way I believe things really work (as far as spirituality, spritual warfare and magic go.)
I don't think that D&D is inherently evil, but I think it can in certain cases interfere with your priorities in a harmful way. | |
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Can of the Cave Beer
Commander
2838 Posts
| | 03/31/2006 1:49 AM |
| The only thing that was ever said about my D&D (by the DCE--Director of Christian Education) was "Eric, I'm not sure about [D&D]." After that, nothing. Not even by my parents, although I'm pretty sure they started watching my actions closely when I started playing.
My father used to love to point out articles in the paper that focused on the wack-jobs among us, but that never phased me. My father is also quick to point out the felons on COPS that have tattoos or piercings, too. And to complain that I use too much Tabasco sauce. And to complain about my music.... You get the idea, my dad pretty much likes to ride my case about anything.
I'm not as religeous (although I remain spiritual) as I once was, but that's hardly the doing of any RPG. Ever since I was in the 4th Grade, I've had Deistic leanings, so I've pretty much left any church behind. Although that may help explain why I'm very fond of pocket-watches. [)]
I had a couple more things to say, but they sounded way to preachy for my tastes. | |
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scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 03/31/2006 1:58 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Username
From what I believe is true, a person doesn't go to hell by playing a game, telling a lie, or even committing murder. A person goes to hell by choosing not to acknowledge and believe that Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world. Going to heaven is accomplished by choosing to acknowledge that sacrifice. You aren't born into it, you don't earn it, and you can't buy it. God's (2nd) greatest gift is a free will.
I agree with you on this 100%, as well as Felagund's interpretation.
Everyone sins, so if it were up to being perfect, or "doing good", we'd all be doomed to go to hell without exception. Belief that Jesus died on the cross and took on the sin of the world in your place is your ticket to heaven. | |
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2627 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 03/31/2006 10:47 AM |
| This has made me think of something. I've figured out that my parents don't really like me playing D&D though they do show some support in me playing (Which I assume to be false support). There is no religous aspect of any of this that I can tell.
My question to all of you is should I care? Should I ask them about it? Or should I just leave it be.
I rememeber when I first started playing (DDM) my mom told me about how she remembers hearing of D&D players playing the charcters themselves and running around as if it were real life. Sometimes people would end up stabbing themselves or friends. This was her last ditch effort (As far as I can tell) to stop me from playing the game. My parents are very suttle with them not liking me paying D&D. | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
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Stabmastaarson
Sergeant
442 Posts
| | 03/31/2006 11:09 AM |
| This will be the 30th time I've said this, but it must be said again:
I am so pleased that this discussion has not devolved into a flame war. It even has religion as a central theme! Maxminis people are so cool.
Anyway, I grew up Southern Baptist and was restricted from playing D&D, watching He-man (because of Skeletor...) and other odd bits because they were "evil". Around 1984 (I was about 10) my mom found out I had started playing D&D with the neighbor kids across the street...it was an ugly day. I was forbidden from playing with them too.
Fast forward 20 years and I'm still playing, my oldest son plays, my younger son will most likely start when he's old enough. My parents are even cool with it now. After calming down long enough to listen to me, they now realize it's a stimulating and rewarding hobby.
Go figure
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Better to be hated for what you are than loved for what you're not
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griffrat
Commander
3506 Posts
| | 03/31/2006 11:41 AM |
| Very cool indeed.
I remember my dad telling me back when I was learning the game that he didn't want me playing D&D. So I told them from then on out I would not play D&D but something else. The group that I was in started calling it Scott (the DM) and Swords or S&S. We were kids and living in a small town. I chalk this up to the same thing as parental peer pressure. Before it was called peer pressure.
ShadowLord XT, I would take some of the great stories from the past found here and see the interest your parents are showing as nothing less than the concern it is for the kid you will always be to them. It is the curse of a parent (so I have been told by my pops) to always be concerned about the welfare of the child they rasied.
You might try playing a game with them. I am sure that if you were to explain the rules and call it playing Lord of the Rings simulations or something (something that has a ready made impression of fantasy orcs, goblins, elves and etc...) They might be swayed to understand that you are not in a swewer playing with swords or dressing in all black, or somehthing along the more strange things the game(s) get associated with by people who don't play. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 03/31/2006 11:58 AM |
| Wow! What an excellent thread. Thanks for keeping it civil, although I'm not surprised. You know you're amongst gaming geeks when religion can be discussed in a civil manner, but cherry picking can't.
I'm a bit saddened by some of the past experiences some of you have had. Maybe it's a sampling error issue, but it seems more prevalent than I had thought.
I was a bit luckier than some. My parents never gave me any trouble. As a matter of fact, I asked my mother about this not too long ago. I asked her why she didn't look into the game when i first started playing. She replied that she did look into and discussed it with some other parents. Basically she said, you guys were in the basement playing a game, it kept you off the streets, and made it easier to watch you. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 03/31/2006 12:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ShadowLord XT
This has made me think of something. I've figured out that my parents don't really like me playing D&D though they do show some support in me playing (Which I assume to be false support). There is no religous aspect of any of this that I can tell.
My question to all of you is should I care? Should I ask them about it? Or should I just leave it be.
I rememeber when I first started playing (DDM) my mom told me about how she remembers hearing of D&D players playing the charcters themselves and running around as if it were real life. Sometimes people would end up stabbing themselves or friends. This was her last ditch effort (As far as I can tell) to stop me from playing the game. My parents are very suttle with them not liking me paying D&D.
I'm a bit reluctant to answer this, I'd hate to feel responsible for making the situation worse, but you might want to show them the 'Life outside of minis' thread in General. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2627 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 03/31/2006 1:12 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by griffrat
ShadowLord XT, I would take some of the great stories from the past found here and see the interest your parents are showing as nothing less than the concern it is for the kid you will always be to them. It is the curse of a parent (so I have been told by my pops) to always be concerned about the welfare of the child they rasied.
You might try playing a game with them. I am sure that if you were to explain the rules and call it playing Lord of the Rings simulations or something (something that has a ready made impression of fantasy orcs, goblins, elves and etc...) They might be swayed to understand that you are not in a swewer playing with swords or dressing in all black, or somehthing along the more strange things the game(s) get associated with by people who don't play.
I've been able to stray them away from thinking about the whole sewer thing (Which was quite short lived for them seeing I was playing a different type of the game.
I'll see if they want to try a game, but I doubt it. | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
Champion of Half-Golems
Knight of Golems
"This world is made for love and peace" - Trigun
"anyway..shadow..you've figured women out. KUDOS." - raye_kino16 | |
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griffrat
Commander
3506 Posts
| | 03/31/2006 2:18 PM |
| It would never hurt to ask. I mean if they think there is something being hidden and you are wanting to show it to then it would lower a lot of the apprehension to it.
I was showing some of the "testimonials" to the wife last night. Even though she grew up here in the same part of the midwest she never knew about the misconception. As far as she has ever know it is a bunch of guys getting together and going into a basement and making a lot of noise. Since I am in the basement as well she knows where I am.
Just like nyjastul69's mom, Mrs. griffrat knows where I am can walk down into the paint room or the game room and find me studying some strange book or cackleing over some new mini I just got done painting. She has painted with me before so as we would paint I would talk about the game and why this guy "needs" to look this way instead of this way or some such nonsense....[:D] Being open and not hiding anything is the best way to avoid any trouble. I wish I would have known that when I was a kid, and thought to have the games at the house infront of the parents....probably would have been a better scene....live and learn....[)] | |
Ambassador of FUN!!! | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3858 Posts
Adelaide
| | 04/03/2006 9:55 PM |
| @shadowlord
I think finding out why they don't like it is important. Find ways to compare it to things to don't dislike. EG watching the Lord of the rings movie, reading, acting/drama etc. A game like D&D or any RPG will have parts that people cant help but like if explained properly.
Playing D&D definitely helps with literacy and numeracy. And not too shabby at Chance & data, probability, and higher order thinking skills and no doubt others we should start a thread for...
I had to do a fairly detailed study about benefits and rationalisation when I scammed begun RPG at high school during class time. It is no doubt thread worthy.
Not so good for advice with Mums but I used to compare 'D&D related deaths' percentage with nation wide percentages. Too rusty to remember the stats now, but the % of people that play RPG & committed violent acts or self harm was much much much lower that percentage of same age who don't play that committed violent acts or self harm. YMMV.
@ other's religious comments
I`m glad that you all are remebering that not everyone shares your view points. [:)]
I don't intend on 'preaching my atheism' but I do need to state that it is a viewpoint, not a fact that everyone is sinners and there is only one way to heaven.
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"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
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FeranEldritchKnight
Sergeant
385 Posts
Kansas City, MO USA
| | 04/04/2006 7:21 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Bert the Troll
I don't intend on 'preaching my atheism' but I do need to state that it is a viewpoint, not a fact that everyone is sinners and there is only one way to heaven.
You're half right. It is a fact that everyone is a sinner- meaning we are not perfect, or "miss the target" (definition/root of sin). (If you know someone that is infallable and can proove it, you're going to be a billionaire.) It is the viewpoint of most every religion that their way is the only way. Very few people feel there is more than one way into Heaven, Nirvana, Alysium, etc...
But yes, that is what makes this thread great. We have athiests and christians sitting side-by-side having a civil conversation without telling people where they can go.[}:)] | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3858 Posts
Adelaide
| | 04/05/2006 2:19 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by FeranEldritchKnight
quote:
Originally posted by Bert the Troll
I don't intend on 'preaching my atheism' but I do need to state that it is a viewpoint, not a fact that everyone is sinners and there is only one way to heaven.
You're half right. It is a fact that everyone is a sinner- meaning we are not perfect, or "miss the target" (definition/root of sin). (If you know someone that is infallable and can proove it, you're going to be a billionaire.) It is the viewpoint of most every religion that their way is the only way. Very few people feel there is more than one way into Heaven, Nirvana, Alysium, etc...
But yes, that is what makes this thread great. We have athiests and christians sitting side-by-side having a civil conversation without telling people where they can go.[}:)]
Depends on definitions of sin I guess. If you use yours, ie being imperfect, then I would gladly agree that indeed no one is perfect. (I reckon finding someone without sin in that context would probably only be worth a buck fifty mind you)
Most people and definitions use the word sin with religious context though. ie http://www.google.com.au/search?&q=define%3Asin most prevalent are phrases like 'estranged from god', 'breaking god's law' & down to 'Humankind's total depravity'. At the very least there is a moral element to the word sin.
By those definitions, and imo they are more common ones, I don't believe we are all sinners. My defination/interpration of Sin requires a god to judge it as such.
Of course you can also define sin as the endpoint of an arc of a unit circle centered at the origin of a Cartesian coordinate system but that is a bit of a digression [:p]
I also think, but admitly lack hard stats that only 50-70% of people think there is only one way into heaven. The majorty, but not nearly all. Counting all the assorted religions like buddhism, spiritualism, Tao, Shinto, agnosticism, new ageism along with atheists. Not sure about Hindus. Excepting buddhism though(possibly hiduism, but I think they are caste structred), all the major faiths agree that theirs is the only way to get into heaven.
But the number of people agreeing to something doesn't equate to being correct :) IE it is still a viewpoint, not a fact.
I do find it strange, and very pleasant to find so many christains who arent yelling 'satan worshiper' to D&Ders. I am much more used to hard line fundentmentilst christians, who tend to be a tad intolerant of others. :|
So forgive me if I over react & feel free to tell me stop beating the dead horse. [)]
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"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
9031 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 04/05/2006 4:25 AM |
| | The only evil at work is blind faith without common sense. It's a shame some people haven't learned from history. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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Username
Warlord
5631 Posts
| | 04/05/2006 10:00 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Thenameless
The only evil at work is blind faith without common sense. It's a shame some people haven't learned from history.
Blind faith to God is great. On the other hand, blind faith to/in people, not so great. | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
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Thailfi
Sergeant
955 Posts
| | 04/05/2006 10:30 AM |
| I have never run into anyone who thought that D&D was evil. Geeky, yes (and even I freely admit to that), tool of the Devil, no.
As a practicing Catholic I often wonder how many people conform to strict interpretations of the Bible. I firmly believe that Jesus spoke mainly in metaphors. When he said tear this church down and in three days I will rebuild it. He was speaking of the resurrection, not actually rebuilding a destroyed church.
Thus, when Jesus said the only way to the Father is through me, I don't think he was talking about believing that he is the Son of God and that he died to cleanse us of sin. I think he was talking about following his teachings and his greatest commandment, love God and one another as I have loved you.
Thus, believing in the resurrection isn't a free pass to Heaven and not believing does not earn you a one way trip to Hell. I believe your afterlife has everything to do with how you treat others in this life.
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 04/05/2006 6:55 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Thailfi
I have never run into anyone who thought that D&D was evil. Geeky, yes (and even I freely admit to that), tool of the Devil, no.
As a practicing Catholic I often wonder how many people conform to strict interpretations of the Bible. I firmly believe that Jesus spoke mainly in metaphors. When he said tear this church down and in three days I will rebuild it. He was speaking of the resurrection, not actually rebuilding a destroyed church.
Thus, when Jesus said the only way to the Father is through me, I don't think he was talking about believing that he is the Son of God and that he died to cleanse us of sin. I think he was talking about following his teachings and his greatest commandment, love God and one another as I have loved you.
Thus, believing in the resurrection isn't a free pass to Heaven and not believing does not earn you a one way trip to Hell. I believe your afterlife has everything to do with how you treat others in this life.
That's not Catholic, that's Liberal Quaker [:D] (at least that's what it said on the "test" I took and entered pretty much those same views) | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3858 Posts
Adelaide
| | 04/06/2006 2:01 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Username
Blind faith to God is great. On the other hand, blind faith to/in people, not so great.
Blind faith in a god isn't so good when it leads to martyrs and suicide bombing. | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 04/06/2006 2:25 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Thailfi
Thus, believing in the resurrection isn't a free pass to Heaven and not believing does not earn you a one way trip to Hell. I believe your afterlife has everything to do with how you treat others in this life.
I don't want to turn this into a religious debate, but I just want to offer a counter-point.
This is what I believe:
The Bible says very plainly in many places that it is impossible to get into heaven through works. (In fact, some of the parables in which Jesus uses the metaphors you refer to were intended to illustrate that point.) It would require being completely flawless in obedience God's commandments. Being human makes that purity impossible if we're left to our own devices.
But Jesus did die on the cross for our sins, and through that sacrifice our debt is paid in full. His forgiveness along with His sacrifice makes us pure, not us trying really really hard to be good, kind and loving. Because nomatter how hard we try or how dedicated we are to obeying God, we fall short.
quote:
Originally posted by Bert the Troll
I don't intend on 'preaching my atheism' but I do need to state that it is a viewpoint, not a fact that everyone is sinners and there is only one way to heaven.
I also want to offer a counter-point to this statement.
What you stated is also a viewpoint. Facts are absolute and independent of viewpoints. Viewpoints can be based on and agree with fact. Belief that something is true does not make it a fact. If that were so, there would be no actual truth. I'm not saying that you are trying to argue otherwise, I'm just making a point.
I believe that God defines truth and fact. Scientists, philosophers, society, and the opinion/desire/belief of the individual cannot change or define what is true, they just interpret what they percieve, and therefore can be wrong. | |
Champion of the Revenant
Knight of the Elf Duskblade
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Username
Warlord
5631 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 9:38 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Bert the Troll
quote:
Originally posted by Username
Blind faith to God is great. On the other hand, blind faith to/in people, not so great.
Blind faith in a god isn't so good when it leads to martyrs and suicide bombing.
Some people choose the wrong god. | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
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Username
Warlord
5631 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 9:42 AM |
| | I concur with Scruffy. Jesus spoke in parables in order to get attention and get a point across. It's much more fun to learn from a story. However, He never spoke metaphorically/symbolically when it came to who was and what He was doing. He is the Son of God, He died for our sins. | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
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reezel
Sergeant
555 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 10:19 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Username
Some people choose the wrong god.
I think maybe this thread is starting to go a bad route. Might want to shut this down now. | |
Champion of the Beholder and Beholderkin
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. | |
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Username
Warlord
5631 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 10:35 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by reezel
quote:
Originally posted by Username
Some people choose the wrong god.
I think maybe this thread is starting to go a bad route. Might want to shut this down now.
I think we are doing fine. This is absolutely the mose civil debate about religion I have EVER seen on the Internet. Kudos to everyone involved. | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
| The Mighty
jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 10:53 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by reezel
quote:
Originally posted by Username
Some people choose the wrong god.
I think maybe this thread is starting to go a bad route. Might want to shut this down now.
I concur, but at the same time i would like to see this conversation continue. If that is the worst comment, then we are fine. I personally find that comment funny/hilarious, but then, i don't believe in God(s) ... I can understand how it would anger somebody fairly devout ... so, we shall see how this goes.
I felt myself a minority in High School, i wasn't religious in a school that was 75% mormon ... i dated a mormon whose mom was *super* religous and whose father was a *convert* ... you do the math on how i was looked on for my non-religious hobbies (i didn't start gaming till post highschool) | | | |
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reezel
Sergeant
555 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 10:58 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jai
I concur, but at the same time i would like to see this conversation continue. If that is the worst comment, then we are fine. I personally find that comment funny/hilarious, but then, i don't believe in God(s) ... I can understand how it would anger somebody fairly devout ... so, we shall see how this goes.
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