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Username
Warlord
5557 Posts
    
 | | 04/06/2006 11:08 AM |
| I think this is a great exercise for everyone involved.
A faith (whether in a god or not) untested is not faith at all. | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 04/06/2006 11:22 AM |
| | Not that my opinion matters much, but I don't see a need to lock this. I've been amazed at the civility in this conversation. I haven't seen an on-line discussion remain civil this long. | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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sienar
Sergeant
636 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 1:13 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by reezel
quote:
Originally posted by Username
Some people choose the wrong god.
I think maybe this thread is starting to go a bad route. Might want to shut this down now.
Agreed. Much of the fanaticism related to that might be better attributed to following the wrong religious leader, not god.
Also, we can't jsut discount the vocal minority. It may be a minority that is vocal against D&D, but the vocal part is the problem. The vocal minority tends to be strongly-opinioned and has/takes the time to share that opinion. The contented tend to not do that (I'd place the typical scientist in the 'contented' category - less tendency to feel they need to apply their opinion on others), where the vocal minority has a tendency to feel that their opinion must be right and others need to follow.
***
My experiences seem to be different than most. My parents bought D&D for my brother and myself. We were a military family and preparing to move to another country (from Holland to England - we were already out of the US). They thought the game would be a good way to give us something that the two of us could do togther, foster our imaginations, and (possibly) find friends in our new location. I'd say all of it worked pretty well. Over time, I have had to defend D&D from the devil-worship arguement and have had friends not be allowed to play because of it. | |
[http://www.hordelings.com/frontend/profiles/profile.php?user_id=22] | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 1:37 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Username
quote:
Originally posted by Bert the Troll
quote:
Originally posted by Username
Blind faith to God is great. On the other hand, blind faith to/in people, not so great.
Blind faith in a god isn't so good when it leads to martyrs and suicide bombing.
Some people choose the wrong god.
The only faiths in modern society that I see leading to the activities mentioned by Bert are Christianity and Islam. (There may well be others that I haven't noticed.) They follow the same god. You may want to rephrase that, Username.
Personally, I think blind faith is ridiculous. Why were we given the ability to reason if not to use it?
quote:
However, He never spoke metaphorically/symbolically when it came to who was and what He was doing. He is the Son of God, He died for our sins.
This is my body, eat it. This is my blood, drink it. - That's not a metaphor? | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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Username
Warlord
5557 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 1:48 PM |
| Actually Islam and Christianity DO NOT follow the same God. As far as I know with Islam, Allah is a singular being and Jesus was a prophet. Correct me if I am wrong. On the other hand, with Christianity, God is a triune being comprised of the Father (God), the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit.
I HIGHLY doubt, with both religions, that the bombings were done with blind faith to a god, but were rather done for selfish means and some sort of political agenda for a person who said they it came from their god. If you think about it, faith and common sense DO NOT go hand in hand.
quote:
This is my body, eat it. This is my blood, drink it. - That's not a metaphor?
Yes and no. Yes, because during communion it does symbolize the sacrifice He made and the acceptance of it. No because He actually had His body broken and His blood spilt.
Perhaps my wording concerning metaphors was a poor choice. I'll then say that Jesus's life, teachings, and sacrifice are all in accord with a specific purpose of salvation for all. | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 2:13 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Username
Actually Islam and Christianity DO NOT follow the same God. As far as I know with Islam, Allah is a singular being and Jesus was a prophet.
My understanding is that it's the same god. While the Christians follow his teachings through the prophet Christ, Muslims follow his teachings through the prophet Mohammed. The Jewish follow the same god as well, and I believe that Moses is their primary prophet.
quote:
If you think about it, faith and common sense DO NOT go hand in hand.
I think this is the thing that disturbs me the most... | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 04/06/2006 2:30 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Felagund
The only faiths in modern society that I see leading to the activities mentioned by Bert are Christianity and Islam. (There may well be others that I haven't noticed.) They follow the same god. You may want to rephrase that, Username.
Personally, I think blind faith is ridiculous. Why were we given the ability to reason if not to use it?
I must echo Username here. Christianity and Islam do not follow the same god. Muslims believe that Allah is god. The difference is most easily recognized in the very differing beliefs. The same god would not contradict himself on so many key points.
About blind faith: In having a relationship with God, you learn first hand that He is quite incapable of deciet. Blind faith in God is necessary, because we cannot truely comprehend God's absolute divinity, holiness, and grace.
BUT people have a way of twisting things to meet their own ends. Blind, unquestioned faith in what a religious leader says is foolish. The Bible urges us to compare the teachings of religious leaders to the Bible diligently and make informed decisions. | |
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scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 04/06/2006 2:32 PM |
| | oops | |
Champion of the Revenant
Knight of the Elf Duskblade
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Username
Warlord
5557 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 2:51 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by scruffydude7
The Bible urges us to compare the teachings of religious leaders to the Bible diligently and make informed decisions.
Acts 17:11 - "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
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scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 04/06/2006 3:04 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Felagund
quote:
Originally posted by Username
Actually Islam and Christianity DO NOT follow the same God. As far as I know with Islam, Allah is a singular being and Jesus was a prophet.
My understanding is that it's the same god. While the Christians follow his teachings through the prophet Christ, Muslims follow his teachings through the prophet Mohammed. The Jewish follow the same god as well, and I believe that Moses is their primary prophet.
Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God. Muslims say he was a prophet. The funny thing is, Jesus's teachings do not even come close to agreement with Islam.
I'd suggest doing a little research on Islam if you want to see the specific differences, because there are a lot more than I can post.
quote:
If you think about it, faith and common sense DO NOT go hand in hand.
I think a better way to put it is that faith and human nature to do not always agree. (It is human nature to preserve one's own life. Some Muslims apparently have faith that sacrificing themselves to kill infidels will get them into heaven, and that goes against their human nature.) | |
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Knight of the Elf Duskblade
Complete Trades: Oni, Kidkach, Melrune, callidusx3 | |
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Thailfi
Sergeant
955 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 4:14 PM |
| I believe in the Holy Trinity and I believe that Jesus died for our sins. All of our sins, including failure to worship in the way laid out in the Bible. It is even spelled out plainly that the Jews will not be condemned for this transgression.
About the only bumper sticker I have ever seen that imparted a shread of wisdom to me was one that read "God is too big to fit in one religion". I can't accept a loving God (and that is what Christianity teaches us that God is) that would condemn over two thirds of his children for failure to recognize his son. Especially considering religion is so heavily influenced by environment. I doubt many of us would have become Christians had we been born in the Middle East, a large portion of Africa, China, or India. I am not intending to insult anyone's beliefs I just wonder if they would have survived being born in a country where Chritianity is illegal.
My earlier question about strick interpretation of the Bible reflects my protestant upbringing where we were told that every word in the Bible was the truth directly from God. I could never stomach that and hold closer to the church I adopted when I married my wife. Every Catholic priest that I have talked to has shared my view that the Bible was written 2,000 to 5,000 years ago for the understanding of people at that time. Your average shepherd tending flocks 3,000 years ago would probably have trouble with "Okay, God created the heavens and the earth in a slow process that evolved over millions of years." They needed the directness of "and on the seventh day He rested". | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 4:23 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by scruffydude7
I must echo Username here. Christianity and Islam do not follow the same god. Muslims believe that Allah is god. The difference is most easily recognized in the very differing beliefs. The same god would not contradict himself on so many key points.
And the Jews believe that YHWH is god. In Wisconsin, they call a drinking fountain a 'bubbler'. A rose by any other name...
If you read through the Bible, you'll find many contradictory depictions of God. It wouldn't at all surprise me to find that the Muslims interpret him differently.
quote:
The Bible urges us to compare the teachings of religious leaders to the Bible diligently and make informed decisions.
Interesting point there, and brings to mind two questions for me.
1. How many actually do this?
2. Who is really capable of truly understanding the bible?
quote:
I think a better way to put it is that faith and human nature to do not always agree. (It is human nature to preserve one's own life. Some Muslims apparently have faith that sacrificing themselves to kill infidels will get them into heaven, and that goes against their human nature.)
I disagree with your interpretation of human nature. It is an animal's nature to preserve it's own life. Throughout history, humans have willingly given up their lives for various causes. | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2710 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 04/06/2006 4:33 PM |
| | In RI a drinking fountain is called a 'bubbla'. [:D] | |
You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com | |
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Username
Warlord
5557 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 4:38 PM |
| Felagund,
I'm reading through the Bible, and my wife has read through it several times, and we don't see any 'contradiction' in it. Care to submit an example.
Also, anyone is capable of understanding the Bible, if they just read it and apply it. It's not complicated. | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
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Thailfi
Sergeant
955 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 4:50 PM |
| I can't speak for anyone else, but I think most of the "contradictions" arise when comparing old testament scripture to new testament scripture. I can see how some people would see a less loving and more vengeful God in some of the old testament.
For me some of Paul's writings come off as a little more zealous and unforgiving than the four Gospels.
quote:
Also, anyone is capable of understanding the Bible, if they just read it and apply it. It's not complicated.
I dunno, I see plenty of hard right Bible thumpers that obviously got something different than I got out of the Bible. They act a whole lot more like the pharisees than the disciples in my humble opinion, but who am I to judge. | |
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Username
Warlord
5557 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 4:55 PM |
| Thailfi,
I believe the Bible is just as applicible now as it was then. I think the Bible should be interpreted by the context it was written in.
And no, God doesn't condemn anyone, there is a chocie to be made. We are all instilled with a measure of faith to believe. In the book of Romans, it says that even nature cries out so man would know of God's existence. I believe we are without excuse-
Romans 1:20
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
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Username
Warlord
5557 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 4:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Thailfi
I can't speak for anyone else, but I think most of the "contradictions" arise when comparing old testament scripture to new testament scripture. I can see how some people would see a less loving and more vengeful God in some of the old testament.
For me some of Paul's writings come off as a little more zealous and unforgiving than the four Gospels.
That is not a contradiction but rather a completetion of the story in two parts.
I disagree and find Paul's writing very gripping and a good look into a real, vunerable, imperfect man. | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 5:15 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Username
Felagund,
I'm reading through the Bible, and my wife has read through it several times, and we don't see any 'contradiction' in it. Care to submit an example.
First, let me ask if you are reading it in Old Hebrew, or whether you're using an English version that has gone through many steps of translation. [)]
Second, Thailfi nicely summed up the contradictions I was referring to. I can pour through it when I get home, and try to find some examples for tomorrow, if you like.
quote:
Also, anyone is capable of understanding the Bible, if they just read it and apply it. It's not complicated.
Well, anybody is capable of reading it and making an interpretation, that's for sure. But clearly, people are coming to different conclusions on what the book says. Some think it says that D&D is evil, and some don't. Who is right? I'm sure both sides think they're right.
I couldn't disagree more about it not being complicated. One of my college professors was a rabbi who has devoted most of his life to studying the Bible. He felt that the book was far too complicated for him to ever be able to understand (though it of course wouldn't stop him from trying). | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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Username
Warlord
5557 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 5:21 PM |
| I think the Bible isn't complicated at all, but I do believe that it could consume a life time a study and not be fully digested. There is way too much to pick up in it. Also, the most accurate translation from the original text is NASB 1995 edition. That's why it helps to read multiple translation to get the full effect.
Whether D&D is evil or not depends on how you can handle it. Just like alcohol, tobacco, eating, etc etc.
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Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 5:30 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Username
Whether D&D is evil or not depends on how you can handle it. Just like alcohol, tobacco, eating, etc etc.
Then how are some people coming to the conclusion that it definitely is evil, and how are some coming to the conclusion that it definitely isn't?
If the Bible isn't complicated, and anybody can understand it, shouldn't everybody be coming to the same conclusion? | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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Username
Warlord
5557 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 5:56 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Felagund
Then how are some people coming to the conclusion that it definitely is evil, and how are some coming to the conclusion that it definitely isn't?
If the Bible isn't complicated, and anybody can understand it, shouldn't everybody be coming to the same conclusion?
Because some people don't care to educate themselves and make an assumption about it.
Something in the Bible (Salvation & principles) are concrete while other items (such as dress, diet, tatoos, D&D) are up to interpretation. Like it says here-
Romans 14-
"2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him."
continued-
"13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit"
It's all in how you can handle it or how it affects your faith. | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 6:13 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Username
Because some people don't care to educate themselves and make an assumption about it.
Okay, so anybody who interprets the Bible differently than you do simply hasn't taken the time to properly educate themselves on it? As in, they just haven't read the book?
So if I go home and read through the Bible, I'll get exactly the same thing from it as you have? I must admit, I have my doubts about this. | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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Username
Warlord
5557 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 7:37 PM |
| | No, that statement was in reference to why some people have different views about D&D, a summation of what this thread as been about, being educated before you make a call on something. | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
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scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 04/06/2006 7:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Felagund
I disagree with your interpretation of human nature. It is an animal's nature to preserve it's own life. Throughout history, humans have willingly given up their lives for various causes.
Yes, and that is usually because they believed (had faith) that either they were doing the right thing, that their sacfice would be rewarded, or that it would help save someone else. Faith isn't limited to spirituality.
quote:
I can't speak for anyone else, but I think most of the "contradictions" arise when comparing old testament scripture to new testament scripture. I can see how some people would see a less loving and more vengeful God in some of the old testament.
This is what I would have guessed Felagund might have been refering to. Here's a take on that:
During the Old Testament, Jesus had yet to come to earth as a man and die on on the cross for the sins of the world. A lot of things changed after Jesus died on the cross. Jesus's sacrificed made it possible for our sins to be forgiven, destoying the separation from God caused by sin. Because of this, we can have a personal relationship with Jesus.
Before the crucifixion (during the Old Testament) there were many examples of wickedness resulting in destruction at the hand of God. Because at this time there was a seperation between God and man in the form of sin, people could not approach God. God's wrath was both a punishment and an example of the very real consequences of sin, in a time when people could not as easily experience/understand them on a personal level through a relationship with God.
These are not contradictions of God's forgiveness as emphasised in the New Testament. These are different sides of God's character.
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Champion of the Revenant
Knight of the Elf Duskblade
Complete Trades: Oni, Kidkach, Melrune, callidusx3 | |
| 
Bert the Troll
Commander
3829 Posts
Adelaide
| | 04/06/2006 8:12 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Username
Felagund,
I'm reading through the Bible, and my wife has read through it several times, and we don't see any 'contradiction' in it. Care to submit an example.
How many examples do you want?
Why are there so many different christian sects that have different and contradictory ideas about 'acts over faith', 'original sin', 'what heaven is', 'what hell is' 'importance of baptism' 'evil of homosexuality', 'eating shellfish', 'girl priests', 'speaking in tongues', 'infant damnation' etc etc if it is a simple thing.
Or line up the events of Easter from each gospel and you get different stories.
quote:
Also, anyone is capable of understanding the Bible, if they just read it and apply it. It's not complicated.
More accurately anyone is capable of having an understanding of it.... correct or not.
I firmly believe that if more people read the bible critically there would be a lot more agnostics.
The bible is used a lot to justify whole range of things. It is simple to pick a subject and find a bible quote to praise or condemn it.
Christianity is a complex religion. The bible is a complicated text.
Most christians are happy not to have a deep knowledge of the bible and follow more the creeds or philosophy of their church.
A lot of christians are unaware of what the bible actually says, eg ask how long Noah's flood lasted, and 99% tell you incorrectly 40 days.
Not blaming any for thier lack of knowglede (or lack of desire for), but it isnt as simplistic as reading it and applying it imo. | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: Sometimes the road less traveled is less traveled for a reason. ~ Seinfeld
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3829 Posts
Adelaide
| | 04/06/2006 8:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by scruffydude7
quote:
Originally posted by Bert the Troll
I don't intend on 'preaching my atheism' but I do need to state that it is a viewpoint, not a fact that everyone is sinners and there is only one way to heaven.
I also want to offer a counter-point to this statement.
What you stated is also a viewpoint. Facts are absolute and independent of viewpoints. Viewpoints can be based on and agree with fact. Belief that something is true does not make it a fact. If that were so, there would be no actual truth. I'm not saying that you are trying to argue otherwise, I'm just making a point.
I believe that God defines truth and fact. Scientists, philosophers, society, and the opinion/desire/belief of the individual cannot change or define what is true, they just interpret what they percieve, and therefore can be wrong.
Absolutely. My thoughts and lack of belief in god(s) is just my viewpoint.
I would add religious leaders, priests and the like to your list with scientists etc.
A fact is something that can be independently verified and confirmed. | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: Sometimes the road less traveled is less traveled for a reason. ~ Seinfeld
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 04/06/2006 9:06 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Bert the Troll
How many examples do you want?
Why are there so many different christian sects that have different and contradictory ideas about 'acts over faith', 'original sin', 'what heaven is', 'what hell is' 'importance of baptism' 'evil of homosexuality', 'eating shellfish', 'girl priests', 'speaking in tongues', 'infant damnation' etc etc if it is a simple thing.
These are not contradictions of the Bible, these are contradictions of interpretations of the Bible. People are going to approach the Bible with an infinite variety of mindsets, expectations, and upbringings. This does not change the absolute truth that the Bible portrays. It pretty much comes down to what I said before, that people have a way of twisting truth to meet their own ends.
The main message of the Bible is easy to understand for anybody, though. Jesus died on the cross and paid the price for our sins. That is the part that truely matters. The truth of the subtleties of the Bible can often only be fully understood if they are spiritually discerned. They are often things you can only fully understand through the wisdom and guidance of God through a personal relationship with Jesus.
quote:
Or line up the events of Easter from each gospel and you get different stories.
They were written by different people, so naturally, they are going to be different accounts of the same story. None of them contradict each other though.
quote:
The bible is used a lot to justify whole range of things. It is simple to pick a subject and find a bible quote to praise or condemn it.
I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but once again, people have a way of twisting things to their own ends. This does not make their "version" of things right. God's Word has a true meaning. Whether or not certain people interpret it correctly does not change its truth. When these sorts of things are brought up, researching the topic in each place it is adressed in the Bible will lead you to a better understanding.
quote:
Most christians are happy not to have a deep knowledge of the bible and follow more the creeds or philosophy of their church.
A lot of christians are unaware of what the bible actually says, eg ask how long Noah's flood lasted, and 99% tell you incorrectly 40 days.
Not blaming any for thier lack of knowglede (or lack of desire for), but it isnt as simplistic as reading it and applying it imo.
A lot of people who claim to be Christians are not actually Christians, though they themselves may believe they truely are. Others are superficial in their "Christianity". (I'm not pointing any fingers, but making the point that you can't identify people by a label)
On the other hand, some people get what they feel they need to know out of the Bible (the gospel)and view the rest as inconsequencial. There are plenty of things that I am unclear on, but if its in God's Word, thats enough for me. Some folks approach a large portion of the Bible this way. | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3829 Posts
Adelaide
| | 04/06/2006 11:31 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by scruffydude7
These are not contradictions of the Bible, these are contradictions of interpretations of the Bible. People are going to approach the Bible with an infinite variety of mindsets, expectations, and upbringings. This does not change the absolute truth that the Bible portrays. It pretty much comes down to what I said before, that people have a way of twisting truth to meet their own ends.
With that many interpretations how can you say there is any absolute truth. It is your viewpoint based on your interpretation.
People pick and choose what they consider 'true' from the bible, particular from the old testament.
quote:
The main message of the Bible is easy to understand for anybody, though. Jesus died on the cross and paid the price for our sins. That is the part that truely matters.
All you are really saying is that your interpretation is the right one.
Certainly whether you are pre picked to go to heaven (luther's elect) is at direct odds to needing to choose jesus. And infant damnation is at odds with a benevolent god.
quote:
The truth of the subtleties of the Bible can often only be fully understood if they are spiritually discerned.
So if you have blind faith it becomes easier to understand. It also doesn't answer why there are so many different interpretations. Why does the holy spirit give such different discernment to people reading the bible.
quote:
They are often things you can only fully understand through the wisdom and guidance of God through a personal relationship with Jesus.
If you subscribe to the viewpoint that there is a god, perhaps so.
However, again, there are many different sects of christianity that show it isn't as clear cut as that. As they all say the same thing and all have different result.
And the idea that you need god to help you understand his bible makes me wonder why he used a bible for commincating his message in the first place.
quote:
quote:
Or line up the events of Easter from each gospel and you get different stories.
They were written by different people, so naturally, they are going to be different accounts of the same story. None of them contradict each other though.
So the bible isn't inerrant or accurate, it just consist of different peoples versions of what may of happened?
I know some christians believe the bible is holy inspired but not literally correct, is that what you are saying is your viewpoint?
Others say it was god dictating to humans and thus divinely correct which means errors wouldn't be.
The tales do directly contradict each other though. eg who was at the tome at first, who jesus appeared to after the resurrection, how long he was dead for.
I`m better whther you believe in inerrent or not, you will say the other group is wrong in thier 'holy spirit inspired' reading of the bible.
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The bible is used a lot to justify whole range of things. It is simple to pick a subject and find a bible quote to praise or condemn it.
I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but once again, people have a way of twisting things to their own ends. This does not make their "version" of things right. God's Word has a true meaning. Whether or not certain people interpret it correctly does not change its truth. When these sorts of things are brought up, researching the topic in each place it is adressed in the Bible will lead you to a better understanding.
This seems to be saying that you know the true christian way and others are just misguided.
Researching topics in the bible imo tends to expose more contradictions and scientific inaccuracies.
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Most christians are happy not to have a deep knowledge of the bible and follow more the creeds or philosophy of their church.
A lot of christians are unaware of what the bible actually says, eg ask how long Noah's flood lasted, and 99% tell you incorrectly 40 days.
Not blaming any for their lack of knowledge (or lack of desire for), but it isn't as simplistic as reading it and applying it imo.
A lot of people who claim to be Christians are not actually Christians, though they themselves may believe they truely are. Others are superficial in their "Christianity". (I'm not pointing any fingers, but making the point that you can't identify people by a label)
Those same people no doubt feel the same about the way you practise your faith.
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On the other hand, some people get what they feel they need to know out of the Bible (the gospel)and view the rest as inconsequencial. There are plenty of things that I am unclear on, but if its in God's Word, thats enough for me. Some folks approach a large portion of the Bible this way.
I would say there are things in god's word you don't agree with. EG eating shellfish is a stoneable offence.
~~~
In short summary,
you have definite opinions on how the bible is interpreted that you see as correct. Other sects of christianity believe differently.
I don't see any of it as 'bad' perse, except when it comes to other people telling me how to live morally or when it is detrimental to 'fact' (ie flat earth syndrome).
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"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
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Username
Warlord
5557 Posts
| | 04/06/2006 11:46 PM |
| In in accordance with Scruffy.
The Bible itself, when compared to itself, in itself, is infallible. There are no contradictions in the Bible. Please use examples, like I have with text if you want to assert an opinion about the Bible. You can say there are contradictions and fallacies all you want, but until you submit some sort of example, you're point CAN'T BE MADE. It's like saying 'Hey, I've got a million dollars' but there is nothing in your bank account.
If someone says they are a Christian and say there is another way to Heaven besides through Christ, ask for scriptual text to back it up.
Bert,
to explain what 'pre-elected' is as stated in Romans, I'll use an illustration: Think of it as being preapproved for a credit card. You don't have to do anything for it, just accept it. Everyone is pre-elected, you don't have to 'earn' salvation, just accept it.
Again, thanks everyone for the civility! | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
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scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 04/07/2006 12:58 AM |
| I am not saying that "my way is the right way" or that "my interpretation is the correct interpretation." I am not saying that every person other than me who reads the Bible is wrong in their interpretation. I do not claim to have a perfect understanding of the Bible. I am saying that God is truth. This is not about what anybody else (myself included) does or says or believes. This is about the divinity and ultimate authority of God.
You seem to base part of your arguement on the idea that so many people believe so many different things, and because of that, none of us can presume our interpretation to be true. Please correct me if I am wrong, but that is a conclusion I could come to by reading your posts.
I am trying to get you to look at it from the perspective (even if hypothetically, for the sake of arguement) that, without regard to what other people make of it, God's Word holds complete truth, that His authority is unquestionable. It is very possible for people to read the Bible and get that truth that God intended out of it.
The reason there are so many interpretations of the Bible is because there are so many different types of people in the world. If God did not give us free will to believe and choose what we will, then we would not make the CHOICE to submit to and glorify Him. Worship without the availability of a choice to do otherwise is not worship at all. | |
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scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 04/07/2006 1:16 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Bert the Troll
I always thought (or what I believe is true) the crux of christianity was that god made all of us sinners and doomed us all to torture and later changed his mind and if we agree with him we go to heaven.
I don't mean to get off track, but before I forget about it, I have a comment here. In addition to what Username said, I'll add this, because I think it's an important thing to consider.
God did not make Hell to punish humans. Hell is intended for Satan and the demons who rebelled against God along with Satan. Satan does not rule Hell, and he will not be laughing maniacally with delight as demons whip and torture humans. God will have total victory over Satan, and Satan will be punished in Hell. God did not create us to fall short of His glory and go to Hell. | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3829 Posts
Adelaide
| | 04/07/2006 1:32 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by scruffydude7
I am not saying that "my way is the right way" or that "my interpretation is the correct interpretation." I am not saying that every person other than me who reads the Bible is wrong in their interpretation. I do not claim to have a perfect understanding of the Bible. I am saying that God is truth. This is not about what anybody else (myself included) does or says or believes. This is about the divinity and ultimate authority of God.
Okay, I mistook your point. Sorry.
Saying that god is truth is imo a lot different to saying the bible is truth.
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You seem to base part of your arguement on the idea that so many people believe so many different things, and because of that, none of us can presume our interpretation to be true. Please correct me if I am wrong, but that is a conclusion I could come to by reading your posts.
I can see why you would think that from my posts. Indeed I do think that any christian/muslim/bhuddist or spoon bender who declares they know the truth is wrong.
Like the dire straits song 'three men say they are jesus, one of them must be wrong'.
But what you may of missed, is that I dont hold the lines like 'if you read the bible guided by god you will understand' to be meaningful, as all the different sects say that. So obviousily it's not a simple case of 'just read with god as your guide'.
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I am trying to get you to look at it from the perspective (even if hypothetically, for the sake of arguement) that, without regard to what other people make of it, God's Word holds complete truth, that His authority is unquestionable. It is very possible for people to read the Bible and get that truth that God intended out of it.
The problem is that you have to assume that it is gods word and holds complete truth before reading it.
We would have to define what we meant by complete truth and the rest before being able to debate whther or not god intended people to get it.
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The reason there are so many interpretations of the Bible is because there are so many different types of people in the world. If God did not give us free will to believe and choose what we will, then we would not make the CHOICE to submit to and glorify Him. Worship without the availability of a choice to do otherwise is not worship at all.
And I am saying that is a viewpoint not a fact. And my belief it isn't a viewpoint wholy supported by the bible. More accuratly that there are passages in the bible that contradict that as a view.
You seem to be saying that it is the only 'valid' intrepation one could get from reading the bible properly. | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: Sometimes the road less traveled is less traveled for a reason. ~ Seinfeld
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3829 Posts
Adelaide
| | 04/07/2006 2:08 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Username
In in accordance with Scruffy.
The Bible itself, when compared to itself, in itself, is infallible. There are no contradictions in the Bible. Please use examples, like I have with text if you want to assert an opinion about the Bible.
I'm sorry but I think I missed your examples by text.
I can certainty quote from the bible instead on generalities, but I dont really want to then go through the pick the 'correct' version of bible, and go through transaltion errors and stuff.
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You can say there are contradictions and fallacies all you want, but until you submit some sort of example, you're point CAN'T BE MADE. It's like saying 'Hey, I've got a million dollars' but there is nothing in your bank account.
Or like saying there is a heaven when there is nothing there.
I have given examples. Please read my posts instead of saying I haven't.
I have the feeling that we will have to accept that each other has differing views, but...
To contiune on with my easter story example of contradictions (and I could list a lot more but isnt really where I want to focus)
Who was at the tomb when they arrived
According to Matthew: One angel (28:5) And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified
Mark: One young man (16:5)And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted
Luke: Two men (24:4)And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments
John: Two angels (20:12)And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain
~
After the women, to whom did Jesus first appear?
Matthew: Eleven disciples (28:16-17)Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted
Mark: Two disciples in the country, later to eleven (16:12,14)After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country
Luke: Two disciples in Emmaus, later to eleven (24:13,36)And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus...And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them
John: Ten disciples (Judas and Thomas were absent) (20:19, 24)Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Paul: First to Cephas (Peter), then to the twelve. (despite judas being dead at that point)(I Corinthians 15:5)And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve
~~~
If you read the easter accounts in the gospel and then Paul's version, and try to make a timeline of events you will see how messed up the accounts are. That is just two of the inconsitencies in the story.
~~
But there are also many other contradictions in the bible, and all honesty I think the DB would crash if I listed them all.
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If someone says they are a Christian and say there is another way to Heaven besides through Christ, ask for scriptual text to back it u.
That is a lot like saying to drive a car you get in and go. The details are important.
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Bert,
to explain what 'pre-elected' is as stated in Romans, I'll use an illustration: Think of it as being preapproved for a credit card. You don't have to do anything for it, just accept it. Everyone is pre-elected, you don't have to 'earn' salvation, just accept it.
The calvinistic viewpoint is different and they support it quite well via biblical verses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism
and then those who think Works are required as per James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? & James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
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Again, thanks everyone for the civility!
Ditto... feels a bit like treading over ice but hey .
Well have to leave it there for a while... have a good weekend all :)
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"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: Sometimes the road less traveled is less traveled for a reason. ~ Seinfeld
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3829 Posts
Adelaide
| | 04/07/2006 2:11 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by scruffydude7
quote:
Originally posted by Bert the Troll
I always thought (or what I believe is true) the crux of christianity was that god made all of us sinners and doomed us all to torture and later changed his mind and if we agree with him we go to heaven.
I don't mean to get off track, but before I forget about it, I have a comment here. In addition to what Username said, I'll add this, because I think it's an important thing to consider.
God did not make Hell to punish humans. Hell is intended for Satan and the demons who rebelled against God along with Satan. Satan does not rule Hell, and he will not be laughing maniacally with delight as demons whip and torture humans. God will have total victory over Satan, and Satan will be punished in Hell. God did not create us to fall short of His glory and go to Hell.
Hold that thought - later I will respond... it interest me far more than dusty old contradiction in mis translated text :) | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: Sometimes the road less traveled is less traveled for a reason. ~ Seinfeld
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 04/07/2006 2:13 AM |
| Well, I have to submit that I think a person can read the Bible and apply it to what they have experienced, and come to the realization of its truth without assuming so beforehand.
In fact there are people who have begun scientifically analyzing events that took place in the Bible in attempt to disprove them, and ended up becoming Christians. There may very well be cases in which the opposite occured. The point is that coming to believe the Bible isn't always an instant leap of faith without question.
It seems like going on like this will just be beating a dead horse. I understand where you are coming from, and you are certainly free to believe what you will. You seem to have a pretty good grasp of what I have been trying to get across as well.
If you can find some specific examples of the contradictions you are referring to, please present them and I would be glad to further this discussion.
Thanks for keeping this so civil, and I appreciate your patience and honesty.
~Edit~ Nevermind, you are apparently a faster typer than I am. I'll get back to this discussion later also, for now I'm tired.
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Champion of the Revenant
Knight of the Elf Duskblade
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dagonet
Sergeant
442 Posts
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