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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
    
 | | 05/10/2006 7:40 PM |
| (EDIT: Updated to change references to Zenako's price guide to the more generic "Online Price Guide." Also added a clearly stated thesis in the Introduction, stressing the importance knowledge plays in ethical trading. Softened some absolutist language.)
The Ethics of Trading
by Jeff “Wayne Laredo” Wilder
Introduction
I’ve been into Dungeons and Dragons Miniatures since Harbinger, and trading online almost from the beginning. I completed my Harbinger set (and every subsequent set) partially through online trading (at www.maxminis.com), and other than a few glitches, I have been very happy doing so. I was one of the few people, in the early months of the site, arguing strenuously for the existence of and easy access to Zenako’s Price Guide (which has been replaced by an automated Online Price Guide (OPG) posted by madda), in the face of many other old-timers who objected to its presence.
OPG contains information. Specifically, it contains information about the relative values of DDM miniatures. There is one reason – and only one reason – to argue against the presence of and easy access to OPG: keeping this information out of the hands of new and potentially naïve and trusting traders. In turn, there is really only one reason to deny those traders the information: making it easier to take advantage of those traders through lopsided trades that heavily favor the more knowledgeable trader.
Sadly, this behavior occurred a great deal in the first many months of Maxminis’ existence. Happily, it now occurs much less. (Not coincidentally, OPG has been accepted, it is prominently posted, and it is widely, though not universally, relied upon to “ballpark” fair trades.) But every so often, a post goes up in the forum about how a trader “made a great trade with a friend,” or something similar, and in nearly all of these cases it is apparent from the circumstances, as described by the unethical trader him- or herself, that the “friend” has been on the wrong side of an unfair trade that took advantage of the “friend’s” lack of knowledge of the value of his DDM pieces.
When these threads go up, they result in arguments. In the early months of the site, I was alone in arguing vociferously against this unethical behavior. (I don’t believe that I was alone in my feelings about it, but I was almost always alone in publicly denouncing it.) Happily, again, nowadays on the site the arguments are more balanced … Maxminis has truly grown, and for the better. But there are still too many people who, in a desire to preserve their “right” to take advantage of less knowledgeable traders, constantly and tiresomely trot out the same arguments in an attempt to justify their unethical behavior (and in some cases, in my opinion, an attempt to assuage their guilt). This document is an all-in-one convenient rebuttal to these tired and self-serving excuses.
In brief, the thesis of this document can be stated thusly: "As long as each party -- or neither party! -- to a trade is reasonably informed about the relative values of the pieces involved, the trade is fair and ethical. Conversely, if one party is clearly not informed, and the other party is informed and uses that information to make a clearly advantageous trade, the trade is unfair and the informed party is behaving unethically."
I want to stress that this document is not intended as an official statement of Maxminis, its administrators, or its moderators, although I sought and obtained their permission to post it. I very much hope they agree with the principles within, but, again, this is not an official policy document for those folks or for that trading site.
What are the common excuses for engaging in unethical trading? Why are they bogus?
- I only trade Rare for Rare. Pieces of the same rarity should all have the same value.
Almost invariably, people who claim to adhere to this standard apply it with extreme selectivity.
For example, assume Trader Gallant has a Beholder for trade, and needs a Marut. Trader Goofus has a Marut and say he trades "Rare for Rare." Trader Gallant accepts and makes the trade. Two weeks later, Trader Gallant needs an Orc Champion. Trader Goofus has an Orc Champion, and lists among his wants a Warforged Barbarian. Trader Gallant has the Warforged Barbarian and offers Trader Goofus' terms of "Rare for Rare." Unless Trader Goofus is saint-like, he will never accept that offer. Net result -- Trader Goofus has taken advantage of Trader Gallant by claiming a trading standard to which he does not actually adhere. Trader Goofus is an unethical trader.
- Prices on the Online Price Guide are inflated.
It doesn't matter. OPG is a guide intended for trading, and only relative values matter for trading. OPG has repeatedly been shown to be amazingly accurate in that respect.
- They're only pieces of plastic, so it’s not a big deal if I use every possible advantage in a trade.
And a Ben Franklin is only a piece of paper. DDM models have value, and that value can be quantified; not perfectly, and it's always in flux, but it is real value nevertheless. Ripping people off of minis in an unethical trade is exactly the same as conning them out of currency. It may actually be worse, because people tend to be less trusting when it comes to matters of actual money.
- People value pieces for different reasons.
Yes they do, and nobody is going to enforce adherence to any monetary or other value, including values in the OPG. But value is dependent upon knowledge, and an ethical trader does not take advantage of another trader's ignorance and then claim that the other trader simply "valued his miniatures differently."
If Trader Gallant needs a Dromite Wilder to complete his Underdark set, he may very well value it more highly than its actual relative worth. An unethical trader will try to take advantage of Trader Gallant, ask for a much more valuable piece in trade, and hope Trader Gallant is ignorant of the true relative value.. An ethical trader may well make the same offer, but let Trader Gallant know the trade is not objectively balanced, and hope that Trader Gallant knowingly values the set-completing piece more highly.
The same argument of subjective value applies in many circumstances: Trader Gallant needs the mini quickly; he simply likes the mini a lot; the mini is part of a larger trade, and Trader Gallant saves time and effort by avoiding a second trade; Trader Gallant only uses DDM for RPG, so he prefers monster pieces; Trader Gallant simply likes Trader Goofus and wants to give him the gift of a great trade; or maybe Trader Gallant is even one of those very, very rare traders who honestly adheres to Rare for Rare trading. These are all cases is which an informed trader knowingly and subjectively values a piece more highly, and thus an ethical trader can still make a great trade.
Again, the key is knowledge. An ethical traders makes certain he's getting a good deal because the other trader values his minis differently ... not because the other trader is ignorant of the value his minis have.
- If both traders are happy, it's a fair trade.
This is simply and provably incorrect. It is the excuse of someone who would willingly cheat a child out of a valuable coin collection: "I'll give you 20 of these brand new golden dollar coins for these 20 old pennies and dimes!" Someone may very well be happy with such a trade; it remains hugely and inarguably unethical.
Ethically speaking, both parties being happy with a trade is only relevant if both parties are aware of the ballpark value of what they're giving up.
- People are responsible for knowing the value of the pieces in any trade.
In legal terms, this is true. There are even legal terms for it: "arm's length transactions," caveat emptor (“buyer beware”), and so on. So yes, legally this is a valid argument.
Ethically, however, it's completely bogus. DDM is a hobby, and trading sites (especially) are communities. DDM trades are not arm's length transactions between merchants, but rather informal and (intended to be) friendly arrangements between people with a love for the game (if nothing else) in common. There is a huge amount of trust involved in that kind of relationship -- in everything from use of the U.S. and international mails, to trusting that someone sent when they claimed to, to not getting ripped off in a lopsided trade -- and only an unethical trader abuses that trust and hides behind these excuses.
This argument, of course, applies even more strongly when the relationship between the traders is closer: gaming buddies, say, or purported friends. (“Purported,” because nobody who takes this kind of advantage is an actual friend.)
- Other people did it to me.
Does anybody really believe this makes unethical trading okay? Why do people make this argument?
Conclusion
Unethical trading, while not illegal, is an abuse of the trust that is implied in a community hobby like DDM. It inevitably leads to bad feelings, which can in turn lead to a shrinking of the community (or at least lessened growth). This means fewer people to trade with, and less chance of making legitimate good trading deals.
Unethical traders don’t care about this: they stand to make more by ripping people off that they do by helping the trading population grow. Ethical traders, on the other hand, should care very much, and should discourage and denounce unethical trading wherever and whenever they see it.
The above two paragraphs, by the way, are also why sites like Maxminis have an interest in stating very clearly and prominently that unethical trading is frowned upon, and in allowing the denunciation of unethical trading when it occurs. Maxminis is, happily, growing toward this position. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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TLorin
Sneak
80 Posts
Madison, TN
| | 05/10/2006 7:55 PM |
| Signed.
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Trade Ref Thread:
http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16247
Homes:
http://games.loopingthehen.com
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 7:59 PM |
| Im glad you got permission to post this, because it will only end ugly.
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Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/10/2006 8:14 PM |
| I agree wholeheartedly with what Wayne has written in this essay. I hope that after a time it will be put in the Trading Q&A section of this website.
If people are offended, that's what happens when unethical behavior is labelled as such. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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sttmxn
Sergeant
461 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 8:15 PM |
| No doubt this will end ugly, but I think Wayne is right on the money here, and I commend him on putting forth this document. In the spirit of "communication is only possible between equals" (Robert Anton Wilson), truly fair trades can only occur when both parties have been fully advised of the publically-recognized standards of value. If a trader chooses to forego these accepted values for his/her own informed reasons, then that's his/her fetish, and his/her business. But that phenomenon is only fair and ethical if the trader has already reviewed the publicly-recognized values, and actively chosen to disregard them. Trades conducted in which one party is ignorant of the standards (i.e., the price guide) are unethical, and exploitative.
But Wayne has already said all this, and more concisely. Thanks for the contribution, Wayne. | |
52 Completed Trades :: 2 Completed Sales :: Trade/Sale References :: Have/Want List ::Sealed Booster Generator
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 05/10/2006 8:24 PM |
| I do agree with what you have said Wayne.
I would add however that at times people have jumped down throats for claiming unethical trades when full story isn't known. Just becasue a trade is lopsided doesnt mean both people werent informed about the costs.
The nit pick would also be that Zenenko's guide has preety much been replaced with Madda's online one. | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 05/10/2006 8:29 PM |
| I can not stress how much I disagree with your conclusion that ZPG is a good way to establish value for trades. I wish I had more time to respond on a point by point basis, but here is the general gist...
ZPG is a guide that discusses the sale prices proposed by certain internet sellers. It does not show the price of figures that have actually been sold. Accordingly, when a seller decides to charge $150 for Drizzt, the ZPG leaps in response - regardless of whether anyone is willing to actually pay that price. The Drizzt example is a famous example of this situation, but the true problems are the examples that we are not seeing where this phenomena takes place.
What we care about as traders is not the price that some sellers are asking without regard to whether someone will pay that price. Instead, we are interested in the prices charged when transactions actually take place. The prices charged when a transaction actually takes place reflects both the amount at which a seller is willing to sell an item, and the price at which a buyer is willing to buy that same item. This duality of considerations is essential in establishing a fair market price for an item.
Accordingly, we need to look at resources that show actual completed transaction prices. The best resource I've found for collecting this information is Ebay completed auctions. By looking at the last 10 prices at which a certain figure sold (and doing your best to estimate the impact of the shipping costs), you can figure out a fair market value for a certain figure. If you do that for all figures in a trade, you will often get a very different result than the one you'd get using Zenako's guide, especially when different rarities of figures and/or different numbers of figures aer used in the trade.
Zenako goes through *a lot*( of effort to provide his guide, and I appreciate his dedication. However, I have never relied upon the guide.
Further, I have seen the guide used in an attempt to rip someone off. I have received many offers where someone offers me a small handful of commons with inflated ZPG prices (in comparison to the Ebay price) in exchange for a valuable rare (where the ZPG price is closer to the Ebay price). According to a comparison of ZPG, the trade looks fair. In terms of what it would cost me to 'build' either side fo the trade through Ebay purchases, the trade would be laughably unbalanced.
ZPG is one method of evaluating trade value. If someone wants to really check into whether a trade is fair, they should also check Ebay completed auction prices and, most importantly, their common sense.
Bah... I am out of time... and I have much more to say. | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the  indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 8:32 PM |
| | This can only end badly. Especially when someone is trying to show what their moral beliefs are, and wonder why everyone elses isnt the same. I do what I want to do with trading, and dont expect anyone else to condone it or think negative of it. I dont care, I do it my way. I hope everyone finds out their own way to do trading and finds happiness with it, but the last thing I want is someone making up rules on "how it should work". So you are welcome to your list, I have my own thank you very much. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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zdrake
Warrior
279 Posts
Albany, CA (near Berkeley)
| | 05/10/2006 8:45 PM |
| Thank you. I'm happy to see this so clearly articulated. I know it's fun to get good deals, but I don't think preying on ignorance is a good thing to do. In the past, I've justified advantageous trades with some of the reasons above, but I won't do so anymore.
I carry around a recent madda automated guide printout, so I can get some ballpark estimates on figure values when trading. This helps prevent both unethical trades and getting suckered. | |
Champion of Acererak the Demi-Lich (w/ Epic Card)
D&D minis gathering in Berkeley, CA at Games of Berkeley (every other Tuesday, and sometimes every Tuesday.) | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 8:48 PM |
| This is gonna get ugly. But what it boils down to for me is as long as the two parties involved are aware of the relative values and reach an agrement then why should we care. I trade only with a select few people and not online. My trading partners have collections that are alot bigger than mine so I end up trading alot of the last rare they need for a set type of thing. They are generally very generous with their trade in return. So all is well.
My only problem with the article is it sounds like we are being scolded for being immoral(I know thats not the intent) and I'm willing to bet there are gonna be some people offended by that.
I know when I first read it I was alittle taken aback and I don't even trade online.
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Asystole is a stable heart rhythm | |
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Zoons
Underboss
1067 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 9:01 PM |
| As one who is also irked by posts that brag about what I consider to be poor or unethical behavior, I applaud your attempt. However, since ethics is personal and very different from person to person, I fail to see how this will help. You can't just tell grown adults to act morally or ethicly and expect them to respond.
It is interresting to note in your essay how ethics and legality tend to take diverging paths. Perhaps that's why our ever increasingly litigious society is becoming more and more immoral and unethical. That's not a shot at lawyers per se, but an over-reliance on the legal system in general by our society. | |
Never teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time and it annoys the pig.
Champion of the Blink Dog. | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/10/2006 9:06 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
[ comments about ebay ]
I am just going to make a minor observation about ebay v. zenako/madda listing. To me, the important thing is for two people to have a frame of reference for values. If both are using ebay listings, or both are using zenako/madda values, then there is a consistent system. I don't think that both people using ebay listings would violate the intent of Wayne's message.
The trick is consistency. If someone uses ebay listings when it's to their advantage, and zenako/madda listings when it's to their advantage, then there is an ethical problem. This is similar to the examples given in Wayne's article regarding the rare-for-a-rare trading method.
I have done some searching through completed listings on ebay at times. This is a very cumbersome method for those unaquainted with it, or expected to learn. A big advantage of the zenako/madda list is that it's easily accessible to those on this website, and there is a specific amount that can be found.
If someone is new to trading that doesn't have background with doing searches for completed prices at ebay, it is most fair to that person for a system like the zenako/madda list.
If one person uses the ebay pricing (like yourself) and another uses the zenako/madda list, then fine. If a trade can be agreed upon, then fine. If not, then move along. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 9:16 PM |
| | Always remember folks.. WWWD? What Would Wayne Do? That is the guide to ethical and clear trading. Start making the bumper stickers.. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/10/2006 9:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by True_Blue
Always remember folks.. WWWD? What Would Wayne Do? That is the guide to ethical and clear trading. Start making the bumper stickers..
Cut the mocking. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 9:20 PM |
| Looks good to me. We had a Strong trading, prominant posting member who often proposed very lopsided trades with Lone, new members when they hit the boards. He built up a huge number of trades, then set up some really big ones while preparing to Bow out, flying like an Eagle over New Jersey.
Sorry, it's been a long day and I couldn't be more creative in under-the-radar referrences, but many of the old-timers get it. Members like that are a hinderance to the community at large and should be outed and ousted when discovered. Statistically, education in any community is the key whether you are talking good will, economics, crime rates or whatever.
While I only use Zenako as a rough guide, some people use it more closely. Sure, the numbers are off some for anyone's personal value, but it's a frame of reference. After all, my Bladesinger is a lot harder to get out of a booster than a Chimera these days. For someone who really wants and maybe needs that Bladesinger, the values will be closer than they are in the guide. However, that same person who would maybe get "fleeced" in giving up their Chimera straight up of the Bladesinger, but can now haggle a bit and work out a fairer deal for both sides while not equaling the exact Z-value of figures. After all Mialee is roughly the same z-value as a Troll Slasher these days. The RPGer likely wants the troll more while someone new to skirmishing likely wants Mialee more. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 9:22 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by True_Blue
Always remember folks.. WWWD? What Would Wayne Do? That is the guide to ethical and clear trading. Start making the bumper stickers..
Instead of being snide, maybe you should offer up an actual contribution to the discussion. What part of his manifesto do you disagree with? How would you handle a situation instead?
Making snide remarks, etc., is just going to make the thread more likely to get locked and kill discussion. If you're not interested in participating constructively, it would be better to just not participate. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 9:37 PM |
| I disagree with just about the whole thing. How can you post rules when it isnt a Black & White thing everytime. Its always a grey area.
You have no clue if one person needs the mini bad for an adventure, just wants the thing, needs it for a Qualifier, just in general doesnt care to look up things, etc. Also, everyone cant spend their time all the time making sure they know the *exact* current pricing of each mini. It fluxuates so much that the prices change on a day to day basis. So to only follow the guide is inherintely wrong. Also the fact that each person will think of each peice as different value kind of ruins it also. What you think costs one thing, I may laugh at and think there is no way.
You may say, hey if you dont agree, then dont trade. Thats fine. But what if I value the mini lower and you value it higher and we still trade. Should you sit there and think there was a cheat somewhere in there.
Also the fact the someone may think of these as *rules* is absurd. As I said before, I have my own way of trading. And it may be similar to others, but not exactly the same. Do I have to sit there and expect you to mock me or my trades if they didnt come out *even* in the eyes of the Moral Police? No way... everyone is supposed to find their own way of pricing these minis and doing their own research and trading/selling.
I agree there needs to be tools like Zenako's guide, ebay listings, etc and everyone should be educated. But seriously, trades do not exist in a vaccuum and you cant sit there and tell me what is a good/bad trade without knowing everything that is involved. And if you arent in the trade, its none of your friggin business what was involved. So your rules shouldnt come in play. Or guidleines, etc, whatever you may call them.
I'm all for ppl not getting cheated, but by these little guidelines, it seems like if someone is off base by like 5%, ppl will start crying foul, cheating, etc. Which is absurd. Its not up for anyone else to tell everyone else what is right or wrong. Trades need to be handled on a personal level, and not by other ppl commenting on them telling everyone what was right and wrong.
I actually agree with a lot of stuff that was said, but to think that it needs to be the Gospel of trading is absurd. I'd hate for ppl to start seeing this as "The Guideline" because it is flawed because every trade and circumstance is different.
Also the fact that someone felt they had to come along and give us a Lesson is absurd in my opinion too. I know others feel the same way. If you enjoyed being told what is right/wrong, then good for you. I'm glad you got something out of this. But I highly doubt this thread was put there for you. It was probably put there to teach us what was the "right way" and how we should conduct our trading. Which if that were the case, then its wrong. Now I may be wrong in why it was there, but thats where I'm coming from. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 9:46 PM |
| Interesting post.
I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish.
For example, I check Zenako, but I don't value a large blue dragon to the same level as Zenako. I have no interest in trading multiple rares for one. However, if I make that known in my offer, am I unethical? I always say in my offers (when I'm way off what others might think) that I just don't value it as highly as others, and then ask if they still want to trade.
I agree that there are some trades that are patently unfair. However, I have no interest in trying to trade 6 of my $5 rares to get 5 of someones $6 rares just so the price is equal. If I try to trade an $8 rare for a $10 rare, and the deal is sealed, no one is harmed. They just aren't.
What again was the point of this thread? I'm not asking to be snide, I just don't get it. | |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
Champion of Juiblex | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 9:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zoons
It is interresting to note in your essay how ethics and legality tend to take diverging paths. Perhaps that's why our ever increasingly litigious society is becoming more and more immoral and unethical.
The divergence between ethical behavior and legal behavior has more to do with (1) the stakes involved in any given interaction, and (2) the relationship between the parties, and (3) the relationship between lawyer and client.
First, the stakes involved in legal disputes or transactions tend to be orders of magnitude more significant that even the largest Maxminis trade. Accordingly, human nature will lead people to rely upon codified statutes, rather than upon guidleines of ethics.
Second, the relationship between parties in a legal transaction is very often adversarial, and even at the best of times often a zero-sum proposition. This differes from a community like Maxminis, in which (theoretically) the relationship is friendly and the transactions are intended to give both parties more of what they want. Again, in an adversaril or zero-sum transaction, "what is legal" will hold more weight than "what is fair." Ideally the two will be congruent, but we all know that rarely happens.
Third, in a legal dispute in which a party has retained counsel, it is a lawyers job and his ethical duty to zealously promote and protect the interests of his client. In other words, a lawyer must choose what's legal over what is fair, when those concepts conflict.
(It occurs to me that the above paragraph might be confusing to people who aren't aware that attorneys are bound by codified rules of ethics. Many people, in ignorance of this fact, hold attorneys responsible for behavior or outcomes for which they simply have no choice ... other than the choice of not choosing to practive in a given area at all, which would lead to a complete breakdown of the American system of justice.) | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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taliesin
Underboss
1113 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 9:53 PM |
| A lot of people keep insisting this conversation will end badly... I think this thread will enc with hugs and snickerdoodles for everyone! (sure...)
Long-time poster here, but only recently have I started trading. I haven't used Z's guide, or Madda's. I know what I need for RPG purposes, and what is useful in today's skirmish metagame, and (more importantly) what I have that I'm willing to trade away. As such, I propose trades with what I have for what I want. I am free to turn down trade offers, others are free to turn down any offers I make.
Despite this, I'm glad that those resources are available. They do give an objective value (instead of the very subvective, personal values we place on our little lumps of plastic), and I support Wayne's attempts at spreading ethical behavior in our community.
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Champion of the Entire Monster Manual 1!
(Click link to see current progress!)
Uncommon Painting Competition 2 Winner | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 9:53 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by True_Blue
I disagree with just about the whole thing. How can you post rules when it isnt a Black & White thing everytime. Its always a grey area... [rest of post snipped]
Much better for the discussion, and thank you. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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TemplarSaint
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 10:18 PM |
| Well said, Wayne.
When I first started trading, it was on the WotC boards, and one of the first trades I made was with an experienced trader who suggested some rare-for-rare trades. Looking back at the relative values, I got the very short end of the deal. I'll admit it seemed ok at the time, but once I discovered MaxMinis and Zenako's guide, I realized I had lost out.
Ripping off someone is not something I am going to do, and I am glad MaxMinis helps us all make informed trades. | |
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gausse
Sergeant
961 Posts
Wisconsin
| | 05/10/2006 10:23 PM |
| I am anti-authority by nature, so I find it abhorrent when anyone steps upon a soapbox to talk down to others.
I for one have no problem with a price guide, just wish it was more accurate and reflected real-world selling prices. Basing it on online stores often with no stock, inflated prices and no sales is nearly useless to us. Basing it on averaged eBay selling prices would make more sense. | |
270+ Trades Completed (194 maxminis | 50 wizards | 29 hordelings)
References: http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/view/topic/forumid/53/postid/435268/Default.aspx
H/W List: http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=gausse
Bad Trades: Chaotic Good (Strongbow Lone Eagle), dndonuts, Allard, ScottWallace
Email: gausse2@yahoo.com
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 10:34 PM |
| Well said, Wayne. I like and I agree with your ideas on ethical trading. I'd almost suggest that people who agree with this put it into their signatures or trade posts or something. You know, some sort of "Ethical Trader" badge or something.
I say I'd almost suggest it, but trying to do something like that turns it into just another system to be exploited. As much as I don't like it, people are only as good as their last trade. If we try to denounce, or otherwise take action against people who are deemed unethical, then that becomes just another system to be exploited. If you have a grudge against someone, you might try to offer a trade slanted heavily in his favor, then nail him with allegations of unethical trading.
I think these are very nice guidelines, and I hope that's what they remain. I don't have a problem with most of the suggestions in your post. I just think that enforcement would be stepping into dangerous territory. | |
Champion of the Rakshasa. Check out my Mini Terrain Maker, or my new Dungeon Map Maker (under development). | |
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hazel monday
Warrior
338 Posts
Baltimore MD
| | 05/10/2006 10:49 PM |
| | I disagree. I recently traded a Beholder for a LRD. I did'nt want the Beholder at all, but I really wanted the LRD. So, by my standards, I came out ahead in the deal. According to Wayne and Zenako's list, I was ripped off. It's funny.... I don't feel ripped off. | |
Champion of Phanatons. | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 10:53 PM |
| | Go Hazel! | |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
Champion of Juiblex | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 10:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by hazel monday
I disagree. I recently traded a Beholder for a LRD. I did'nt want the Beholder at all, but I really wanted the LRD. So, by my standards, I came out ahead in the deal. According to Wayne and Zenako's list, I was ripped off. It's funny.... I don't feel ripped off.
I think that is a very good point but I think they are talking about trding with people who don't know any better. But regardless of these guides a minis value will vary greatly from person to person. The guides are fine and make a good referance or place to start but it ultimatly comes down to what the traders feel is fair. | |
Asystole is a stable heart rhythm | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 11:06 PM |
| For those of you who tout the use of eBay as a value meter, that's all well and good -- but I'm not just going to take your word for it when you say "that mini goes for $X on eBay." And, I'm not going to waste my time searching for that kind of info on eBay. If anyone wants to compile that information into an easy-to-access format, go ahead -- then I might use it. Until then, I will use the consistent (if supposedly inflated) value guide(s) we have in place (as ballpark figures, not gospel).
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My H/W list is not current...
Trade Reference List
OLD Trade references (191) | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 11:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by hazel monday
I disagree. I recently traded a Beholder for a LRD. I did'nt want the Beholder at all, but I really wanted the LRD. So, by my standards, I came out ahead in the deal. According to Wayne and Zenako's list, I was ripped off.
This is incorrect,. There is an entire section in the essay which discusses "subjective value" trades such as this, and how and why they are possible without resorting to unethical behavior.
I would suggest reading the document before stating conclusions about what it says. With luck, that will decrease the number of incorrect statements about its contents (or at least will decrease the number of non-deliberate incorrect statements about its contents). | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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griffrat
Commander
3507 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 11:14 PM |
| | Real quick as I have to get some sleep to face the day. Wayne, I remember the early arguments that you sepak of in the beginning. I am glad that you came back as at the time in the infancy of DDM the "rare for Rare" mind set was here. I remember thinking equal cost is the best road to go by as it levels the playing field. Thanks for putting pen to paper, so to speak, about this thought as it is still here. Though the thought is not as wide spread. Getting the ideals of "what is ethical and fair trading" is the most important thing. It is nice to see the ideals of fair trade growing along with the fast growing community....[:D] | |
Ambassador of FUN!!! | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 05/10/2006 11:21 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by hazel monday
I disagree. I recently traded a Beholder for a LRD. I did'nt want the Beholder at all, but I really wanted the LRD. So, by my standards, I came out ahead in the deal. According to Wayne and Zenako's list, I was ripped off. It's funny.... I don't feel ripped off.
No, you may if been ripped off if you didn't know a beholder is often worth more LRD. (And I don't think by much as there ain't that dissimilar in price, & at the current moment the large red is actually worth a pittance more than the beholder :/ ).
If you made the trade with a rough idea of thier relative worths.. then no questions about ethics imo.
Whether or not its what Wayne is saying, I be live if two people know the relative Worth's, then it is fine in my simplistic moral opinion. Swapping a beholder for Ambush drake with someone who doesn't know they should get ~= five ambush drakes for a beholder is different.
The price guides are just a guide. But they do help people get those ball parks figures.
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"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 11:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
quote:
Originally posted by hazel monday
I disagree. I recently traded a Beholder for a LRD. I did'nt want the Beholder at all, but I really wanted the LRD. So, by my standards, I came out ahead in the deal. According to Wayne and Zenako's list, I was ripped off.
This is incorrect,. There is an entire section in the essay which discusses "subjective value" trades such as this, and how and why they are possible without resorting to unethical behavior.
I would suggest reading the document before stating conclusions about what it says. With luck, that will decrease the number of incorrect statements about its contents (or at least will decrease the number of non-deliberate incorrect statements about its contents).
Ok maybe I need sleep but how is he incorrect he stated he disagrees. Ok no prob he has that right. Then he meerly gave an example of a trade based on subjuctive value not an equal price value.
I think maybe alot of us myself included are reading too much into this. Bottom line if I'm getting the jist of the article is If all traders are equally informed then whatever trade they feel is fair is fine (or ethical to use your term).
Anyway Wayne it is a well written article and I applaud your efforts to assist the traders at Maxminis. | |
Asystole is a stable heart rhythm | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 11:27 PM |
| See, that is another place where the price guide doesn't work.
Are 200 WTF really worth more than a beholder?
The price guide is an amazing piece of work we should all be thankful for. It is a guide. A guide that gives us a ballpark (especialy for new traders) that allows us to see relative value. But, it does not give us absolute value, like comparing quarters and dollars, whose value has an absolute relativity. | |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
Champion of Juiblex | |
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forkedmoon
Underboss
1305 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 11:28 PM |
| I'm not sure if being relatively new (less than one year in minis) I feel more like a dopey moron or like fodder in a skirmish match. The tone of this whole thread makes me glad that I trade very little. I think anyone new will be paralyzed by fear of being ripped off. Can't use Zenako's numbers because they are artificially inflated for certain figures, can't trust people to be fair and I don't dare give a trade that would be interpreted as unfair to either side for fear of the stigma.
I appreciate that the community is trying to assist others in understanding relative values of minis on an overall scale. That is very commendable plus useful. To try and dictate morals I feel is demeaning.
I would very much prefer to see threads that discuss relative value of minis in various arenas (e-bay versus on-line direct buying versus what different areas of the country collect for singles sales).
I do not intend to offend anyone with anything I have written and only wanted to express my gut reaction to this thread as a whole not just the opening post. I also reiterate that my opinion is of little value though since I am not nor to do I plan to be much of a trader. | |
Champion of Cyclops
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 11:29 PM |
| | Forkedmoon - that was a well written piece. | |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
Champion of Juiblex | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 11:36 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zaukrie
Forkedmoon - that was a well written piece.
I'll second that | |
Asystole is a stable heart rhythm | |
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Zenako
Commander
3472 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 11:39 PM |
| The point being that as long as both parties are aware of the relative values of what they are trading, then any exchange can be "fair". If one party lacks suuficient information to make that judgement then they are subject to potential abuse. Knowledge is power. Every trader is free to provide whatever bonus value they wish to any mini they have or want when structuring a trade, but as Wayne states, the ethical starting point is to ensure that both parties have a consistent common system between themselves in place. Be it My old Guides, Madda's current price compilation, Scrye, or any other standard system, as long as both parties agree things will proceed with a degree of equity between them.
I engaged in perhaps my most lopsided trades with the one trader on this site who had more trades than me. He was looking to dump lots of his extras (mostly common/uncommons) and had a few rare wants. It was an uneven trade on the surface, but both traders had full knowledge of what they were trading and relative values. If one is fully informed and still choose to make what to a third party appears to be an unequal trade, which meets the needs of both sides, then that is part of the system.
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Built the addition for this addiction, now on to the "gaming table" project....
http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Zenako last updated 29 May 2006
Set Status: in a nutshell = all of all
In Process trades 0), (Sig last updated 05/29/06) 300 plus Completed Trades -
If I seem scarce at times...blame DDO - Sarlona | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 11:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zaukrie
See, that is another place where the price guide doesn't work.
Are 200 WTF really worth more than a beholder?
If there was anyone on the planet that actually wanted 200 WTF, then yes. Picking up commons at even say $.50 each would put you out $100. You could get a few Beholders from a store or ebay with that. [:D] | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 05/10/2006 11:44 PM |
| quote:
Bottom line if I'm getting the jist of the article is If all traders are equally informed then whatever trade they feel is fair is fine (or ethical to use your term).
Thats the gist of it imo. | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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