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| | Author | Messages | |
Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
    
 | | 05/10/2006 11:48 PM |
| Gunthar, you made my point. Someone has to want 200 WTF for them to have value - unlike money which by its nature in our world has absolute value. But, the price guide, if we go by it slavishly, says that I should accept those 200 WTF, because the are "worth" more.
I think those that are saying that if both parties are informed of the relative value of minis agree to a trade, that that trade is fair, are correct. But, I don't think that is what Wayne is saying. | |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
Champion of Juiblex | |
| 
Zenako
Commander
3472 Posts
| | 05/10/2006 11:53 PM |
| As to the one other point raised earlier about the various guide prices, this is what I have seen over the years.
Price Guide (Zenako, now madda's) - based on retail asking prices (for IN stock items, not vaporware, to the best of our ability to ascertain)
Scrye - based on some number of stores who report sales, but there is a lack of transparency in which stores or how current the data is. Most prices are in the ballpark of the Guides, but a few are Way off.
EBAY - prices are consistently 1/2 to 2/3 of the Guide prices, which is to be expected given the lower overhead of EBAY sellers. This price delta has been known and acknowledged since day one, and has remained remarkably consistent over time. EBAY will respond quicker to shifts in demand at times, but the supply is very uncertain, and that is part of the premium that is paid to the stores in the guide, to maintain a stock so one can purchase the mini when they want it, and not have to hope it comes up for bid on EBAY.
One cannot mix and match the pricing systems and remain equitable, yes the guides are higher in absolute terms, but the RELATIVE values of the minis remains remarkably consistent between the sources of data. Exceptions do occur, but for every Drizzt or the like there are a hundreds of minis that completely toe the line.
A final point is to be sure to include total acquisition cost when comparing the different systems (Guides vs EBAY). Total cost includes any shipping and handling fees! Sure you might win that mini for $0.10 on EBAY, but pay $3.99 to have it shipped, while the Shop charges $0.99 and tacks on $1.00 to have it shipped. The sales price is almost a factor of 10 lower on EBAY, but the acquisition cost is actually close to double when the final payment is made. Again, Knowledge is Power..... | |
Built the addition for this addiction, now on to the "gaming table" project....
http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Zenako last updated 29 May 2006
Set Status: in a nutshell = all of all
In Process trades 0), (Sig last updated 05/29/06) 300 plus Completed Trades -
If I seem scarce at times...blame DDO - Sarlona | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/11/2006 12:01 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zaukrie
I think those that are saying that if both parties are informed of the relative value of minis agree to a trade, that that trade is fair, are correct. But, I don't think that is what Wayne is saying.
Actually, he did say that. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 12:03 AM |
| Yes, but that is not how the article reads for some reason. I think perhaps it is the length, or the tone. But, somewhere in there it loses that point.
It is well written, but that point gets lost in the rest of the post.
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Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
Champion of Juiblex | |
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FeranEldritchKnight
Sergeant
385 Posts
Kansas City, MO USA
| | 05/11/2006 12:12 AM |
| We need to remember these are ethical guidelines. Ethics vary from person to person. Like monks and paladins. [:p] Obviously Wayne's ethics will differ from someone like Donald Trump, for example.
But really Wayne seems to be writing this because people will talk about what a great deal they got when they acquired the high dollar rare in exchange for a lesser valued rare. If you got such a deal from someone, that's great. I've made deals that favored myself and other times they've favored the other person (according to Zenako, which I use for it's convenience). Gloating (for lack of a better term) makes other people sore. I personally think this type of showboating should be discouraged. But on the reverse side of that arguement, if you get sore reading these posts, don't read them.
I personally feel there is a balance between systems. Zenako is a good starting point, but I also try to always trade rare for rare. My net result of a trade with someone should be about even, within a few dollars (depending on the size of the trade) using Zenako. But at the same time, if someone were to offer me (just for example) a LRD for a Dromite I would first ask them if they were sure, as Zenako lists...etc... but if they still agree that they want that deal, I have no qualms making that trade. I did the ethical thing in my mind by making sure we were both educated. But that is based on MY code ethics. Your ethics may vary. | |
Completed trades: Gausse, Mazra, Pagansexy, Galerians, Lord_Raven, Drakkengi, Temujinn x2, Random Sasquatch, elf_ranger, Azuretide, Hung4treason, Griffrat (face2face), Nasamonkey
Carpe Forum! | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 12:33 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zaukrie
Gunthar, you made my point. Someone has to want 200 WTF for them to have value - unlike money which by its nature in our world has absolute value. But, the price guide, if we go by it slavishly, says that I should accept those 200 WTF, because the are "worth" more.
I think those that are saying that if both parties are informed of the relative value of minis agree to a trade, that that trade is fair, are correct. But, I don't think that is what Wayne is saying.
Actually, I was trying to prove your point, just in a smart-alecy way (shocker, huh?) I guess I do think that what was Wayne was saying as that's the way I interpreted his post.
I didn't interpret anything about accepting trades on dollar value alone. If I don't want a figure, I simply won't trade for it. Well, not really true as I have made trades just to trade, but you get my point. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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FeranEldritchKnight
Sergeant
385 Posts
Kansas City, MO USA
| | 05/11/2006 12:37 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
It's kind of hard to know not to read something until after you've read it...
[:I] I have to agree there. But usually the title of the thread is something along the lines of "GREAT DEAL" or something similar. But still, this is why I discourage that type of thread from being written. | |
Completed trades: Gausse, Mazra, Pagansexy, Galerians, Lord_Raven, Drakkengi, Temujinn x2, Random Sasquatch, elf_ranger, Azuretide, Hung4treason, Griffrat (face2face), Nasamonkey
Carpe Forum! | |
| *censored*
glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 12:38 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
It's kind of hard to know not to read something until after you've read it...
BRAVO! | |
Trades >> Completed: 49 | Bad: Ø | Pending: 0 | Trade & talk Live on IRC! SERVER: irc.psionics.net CHANNEL: #maxminis | |
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DrX
Sergeant
408 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 12:49 AM |
|
The problem I have with Wayne's manifesto is that he called it "The Ethics of Trading". By calling it such, he is dictating an ethical standard which is based on morals that, it would be assumed, that the community here shares. If he had called it even "An Ethical Theory of Trading," I think there would be less confrontation.
As I read it, central to his threory of ethics is the idea that trades must be based on mutual knowledge of an arbitrary pricing guide. Agreement on that seems far from the case. Here's a bit of refutation.
I only trade Rare for Rare. Pieces of the same rarity should all have the same value.
There is a perfectly valid and logical argument as to why this could be the case. In theory, every common, uncommon, and rare has a certain fraction of the value of a booster, and it is assumed has an equal distribution in DDM. Of course, simple economics (supply and demand) cause a wrinkle here, and do make a price guide a useful tool.
However, I resent the idea that, on those instances in which I've traded rare-for-rare at prereleases, I have acted unethically. I once traded my Roper for an Iron Golem, and in retrospect made out like a bandit. I also once traded my Chimera for an Aspect of Nerull, and probably took a bit of a hit. I don't believe ethical or moral breaches were made in either case.
Prices on Zenako's Price Guide are inflated.
Well, in many respects they are. $140 for a Drizzt? I don't think I'd pay $20 for one. Seriously. It's not worth it to me. If I was to buy or accept one in a trade for $20 from someone who felt the same way am I acting unethically? I don't think so.
By paying what I perceive to be the value of an object, maybe eventually the price would go back down to a realistic level. The stores look at the prices at other stores, if not the price guides, and then add a little bit more to their asking price because they can. If we blindly accept the price guide, and therefore the prices of the stores, we are only unrealistically inflating prices, especially for those figures which lie at the high end. The highs continue to get high, and the lows never seem to drop. The price guides are not a realistic market value for many pieces. Ebay might be, but that's harder to scrape data from.
They're only pieces of plastic, so it’s not a big deal use every possible advantage in a trade.
Or restated, caveat emptor. "Buyer beware." I hate to say it, but this is a major underpinning of trade on this planet. Anybody is free to believe that free markets are unethical. I, personally, do not believe that this is settled moral ground. If free markets are unethical, many of us should think long and hard about who we work for and what we do for a living.
People value pieces for different reasons.and If both traders are happy, it's a fair trade.
I resent the idea that because I might propose or accept a trade that, by some arbitrary guide, is "lopsided" in value that I am acting unethically. That just doesn't ring true.
I agree that all traders would be benefitted by understanding the relative values of the minis they're trading. I don't, however, believe it's unethical to propose or accept any trade which benefits me, financially or otherwise. I don't believe it's my responsibility to educate the other trader.
If another trader had no knowledge of the price guide here, and had developed some other alternative method of determining pricing (perhaps through a local store that valued minis very differently), and were making lopsided trades based on their personal system, are they behaving unethically? Because it's really no different than what happens here, it's just a different price guide.
Other people did it to me.
Morally, this is difficult to defend, I agree. However, ethics derive from moral standards dictated by a community. Thankfully, Maxminis | |
HW List: http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=DrX
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12409
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Daunte
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:02 AM |
| hmm, i just typed about a 10 paragraph response to this whole issue. Then i thought, whats the point. Enjoy your "opinion" stated in your essay and im happy you feel that way.
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Ha:19 of 80! De:43 of 60! Ar:24 of 60! GoL:60 of 72! Ab:59 of 60! Dk:58 of 60! Af:60 of 60 Complete! Ud:60 of 60 Complete! WD:60 of 60 Complete!
Trade Thread
Excel Trade Calculator
Excel Price guide/Checklist | |
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Can of the Cave Beer
Commander
2838 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:09 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
It's kind of hard to know not to read something until after you've read it...
BRAVO!
QFT!
Soo many things to say. Soo not worth the attempt. | |
Champion of the Werewolf Lord, Knight of Anything Duergar, and Squire of Things Gnollish
List reset with the start of previews for each new set...got Chainmail®? | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:13 AM |
| A couple counterpoints.
quote:
Originally posted by DrX
The problem I have with Wayne's manifesto is that he called it "The Ethics of Trading". By calling it such, he is dictating an ethical standard which is based on morals that, it would be assumed, that the community here shares. If he had called it even "An Ethical Theory of Trading," I think there would be less confrontation.
As I read it, central to his threory of ethics is the idea that trades must be based on mutual knowledge of an arbitrary pricing guide. Agreement on that seems far from the case. Here's a bit of refutation.
I only trade Rare for Rare. Pieces of the same rarity should all have the same value.
There is a perfectly valid and logical argument as to why this could be the case. In theory, every common, uncommon, and rare has a certain fraction of the value of a booster, and it is assumed has an equal distribution in DDM. Of course, simple economics (supply and demand) cause a wrinkle here, and do make a price guide a useful tool.
However, I resent the idea that, on those instances in which I've traded rare-for-rare at prereleases, I have acted unethically. I once traded my Roper for an Iron Golem, and in retrospect made out like a bandit. I also once traded my Chimera for an Aspect of Nerull, and probably took a bit of a hit. I don't believe ethical or moral breaches were made in either case.
Wayne's thesis here passes no judgement on trades made at pre-releases before the pieces have a solid market value. Everyone at that pre-release was on the same footing as far as knowing what pieces would end up valuable - you were all guessing. No ethical issue, and nothing in Wayne's article is passing any judgement on that deal.
quote:
Prices on Zenako's Price Guide are inflated.
Well, in many respects they are. $140 for a Drizzt? I don't think I'd pay $20 for one. Seriously. It's not worth it to me. If I was to buy or accept one in a trade for $20 from someone who felt the same way am I acting unethically? I don't think so.
By paying what I perceive to be the value of an object, maybe eventually the price would go back down to a realistic level. The stores look at the prices at other stores, if not the price guides, and then add a little bit more to their asking price because they can. If we blindly accept the price guide, and therefore the prices of the stores, we are only unrealistically inflating prices, especially for those figures which lie at the high end. The highs continue to get high, and the lows never seem to drop. The price guides are not a realistic market value for many pieces. Ebay might be, but that's harder to scrape data from.
It doesn't matter if they're inflated or not, as long as the *relative value* of the pieces is reflected by those numbers. As Zenako says, the price guide works very well for that, with just a few outlier pieces - and those outliers are few and rare enough at this point it is unlikely that anyone won't be aware of their issues.
Buying a mini from someone for $20 is outside the scope of the article, which is focused on trading, not on purchasing. He's not advocating anywhere that you use the guide for cash transactions.
quote:
They're only pieces of plastic, so it’s not a big deal use every possible advantage in a trade.
Or restated, caveat emptor. "Buyer beware." I hate to say it, but this is a major underpinning of trade on this planet. Anybody is free to believe that free markets are unethical. I, personally, do not believe that this is settled moral ground. If free markets are unethical, many of us should think long and hard about who we work for and what we do for a living.
Many of us probably should, yes. But my socialist leanings aside, a truly free market allows all sorts of unscrupulous behavior such as fraud, etc. If we can agree that the community should not have that sort of activity, then I don't see how we can dismiss ethical considerations purely on the basis of the free market.
quote:
People value pieces for different reasons.and If both traders are happy, it's a fair trade.
I resent the idea that because I might propose or accept a trade that, by some arbitrary guide, is "lopsided" in value that I am acting unethically. That just doesn't ring true.
I agree that all traders would be benefitted by understanding the relative values of the minis they're trading. I don't, however, believe it's unethical to propose or accept any trade which benefits me, financially or otherwise. I don't believe it's my responsibility to educate the other trader.
This is where we differ. If someone proposes a trade to you that makes you do a spit-take and wonder 'did he really just offer me that?' I think the ethical thing to do is to ask if they're aware of the relative value. Otherwise you might be taking advantage of someone else's ignorance.
quote:
If another trader had no knowledge of the price guide here, and had developed some other alternative method of determining pricing (perhaps through a local store that valued minis very differently), and were making lopsided trades based on their personal system, are they behaving unethically? Because it's really no different than what happens here, it's just a different price guide.
I do think that would be unethical. Intent absolutely matters in ethics.
quote:
Other people did it to me.
Morally, this is difficult to defend, I agree. However, ethics derive from moral standards dictated by a community. Thankfully, Maxminis is not a very cutthroat environment. But there could be a place where "ripping off" newbies was not only accepted, but encouraged, and there would be little ethical violation in that community based on its moral standards.
I rather think a large part of the motivation for this post is to avoid just that sort of scenario.
quote:
As far as my conclusion: I think the price guide is a useful tool, but to consider traders unethical for not using it is an unacceptable proposition.
I think that's an oversimplification of Wayne's position. The issue is not simply 'if you don't use the price guide, you're unethical.' If both parties are aware of what the guide says, and choose not to use it anyway, no harm no foul. Nothing in the post is condemning that. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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EldritchSoul
Warrior
324 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:17 AM |
| regarding zenako's vs. ebay
my main problem with following zenako's price guide is that the prices are set by a dealer who can post it and wait until someone is willing to spend that much on a figure, but the dealer has that mini in stock, which may mean that NO ONE is willing to pay that price.
conversely, ebay displays the basic 2 principles of economics: supply and demand. if there are 8 auctions for figure X and only 3 people are looking for a figure X, the price isn't going to be very high, competition is low, and bids aren't raised.
the most beneficial part of following ebay pricesis we know what people ARE paying for individual figures. Figure Z is in zenako's for $40.00, but the BIN of $29.99 didn't sell. Figure Y is in zenako's for $15.00, but got bid up to $20.00. there may be some relativity, but if the ebay range is 1/3 to 2/3 the ZPG value, that is not a consistent range. I could have 2 figures that sell for 2/3 of the ZPG value, which lists them as $15 each, so the ebay (actual, IMO) value would be $20. John could have 3 figures with a ZPG value of $15 each, but their ebay value is only 1/3, making his figures' actual value total out to $15. by following zenako's, John would tell me to add more figures to "even out the trade" while the actual values would say that I should be requesting more.
ebay is what I consider a real world exchange value, meaning that this is what people are actually paying for these figures, whereas the prices in the zenako's (or madda's) guides may be figures sitting in bins for months before someone feels that it's a worthwhile purchase. | |
Champion of Dracotaur- Vindicated!
T32 | |
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kyrin
Commander
3171 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:26 AM |
| We really should be calling it the "Online Price Guide" now, since it has been automated. Maybe the "Zenako Memorial Price Guide?" Hmmm. I guess not, being as he's alive and all. [)] "Online Price Guide" for me.
I am going to put a disclaimer in my trade thread, that I am assuming that anyone who makes an offer to me has looked at the Online Price Guide. I will not be able to remember to, nor will I be inclined to, remind everyone of that. I am still going to say, though, that I will not be a slave to the Guide. Informed haggling will be the order of the day. Hopefully that will spare me from the Scarlet Letter. If not, meh.
There are some minis I know I will never have, because scarcity has elevated their Guide values to levels I would never trade at. But frankly, I don't want or need many older minis, so they are lost opportunities I can live with. I do feel for people who got into this thing midway through, however. Two WotDQ rares for a VADANIA? Not for me, thanks.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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kyrin
Commander
3171 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:32 AM |
| EldritchSoul,
I agree with what you say wholeheartedly. However, we start to get into matters of practicality. Scanning a dozen or so online stores is a daunting enough prospect, but data mining from the HUNDREDS of eBay auctions is nigh-impossible. The Online Price Guide is a compromise for the sake of convenience, as most compromises are. And like most compromises, it has unsavory elements. But it's what we've got, and although I refuse to be a slave to it, I'm glad it's there as a starting point for trades.
JIM
aka kyrin
| |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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EldritchSoul
Warrior
324 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:57 AM |
| quite honestly, you don't need to look at all of the auctions for a given figure, the first page of the completed listings for a figure will give you the last 50 auctions to end within the last month, you can see easilly on one page how many were posted in the last month, and get a good idea of the average sale value for the 50 most recent auctions, you can also probably see a half dozen to a dozen auctions where the minumum bid was too high. you don't have to do precise calculations, but if the range on a figure is between $15-$20, you probably don't need to click to page 2, and you can weight it based on where in that range most of the auctions fell ($17-$18 probably)
I'd like people to try this: find me an estimated ebay value for an efreeti using the method I described. let us know how long it takes you.
I know it may not have the same convenience level as the online price guide, but i think the extra time is worth knowing a more accurate value for your minis. as zenako said, knowledge is power, those who aren't willing to take the minute or so (literally, unless you have a slow connection, in which case, the online price guide will still take about the same amount of time) to check a mini's value are doing themselves a great disservice. | |
Champion of Dracotaur- Vindicated!
T32 | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/11/2006 2:03 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by EldritchSoul
I'd like people to try this: find me an estimated ebay value for an efreeti using the method I described. let us know how long it takes you.
While this approach might be interesting for those who know how to do it, it is something that is more difficult to do for a newcomer. The first several times I tried looking for completed auctions on ebay, it was a bit of a pain. The price guide here is quite accessible. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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sttmxn
Sergeant
461 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 2:12 AM |
| Dr. X, I certainly don't speak for Wayne, but I appreciate your thoughtful response to this thread, and wanted to add my own rebuttal to your comments:
quote:
The problem I have with Wayne's manifesto is that he called it "The Ethics of Trading". By calling it such, he is dictating an ethical standard which is based on morals that, it would be assumed, that the community here shares. If he had called it even "An Ethical Theory of Trading," I think there would be less confrontation.
I think that invoking this as a matter of ethics inherently suggests the theoretical. Not to get too intense here, but Kant presents ethics as the study of what human behavior should be, as opposed to what it is. Ethics is, by nature, theoretical.
quote:
As I read it, central to his threory of ethics is the idea that trades must be based on mutual knowledge of an arbitrary pricing guide. Agreement on that seems far from the case. Here's a bit of refutation.
"Mutual knowledge" is the key concept here. I think that's important.
quote:
I only trade Rare for Rare. Pieces of the same rarity should all have the same value.
There is a perfectly valid and logical argument as to why this could be the case. In theory, every common, uncommon, and rare has a certain fraction of the value of a booster, and it is assumed has an equal distribution in DDM. Of course, simple economics (supply and demand) cause a wrinkle here, and do make a price guide a useful tool.
However, I resent the idea that, on those instances in which I've traded rare-for-rare at prereleases, I have acted unethically. I once traded my Roper for an Iron Golem, and in retrospect made out like a bandit. I also once traded my Chimera for an Aspect of Nerull, and probably took a bit of a hit. I don't believe ethical or moral breaches were made in either case.
I think this example does not hold--or at least misses the point. If your trading partner knows about the widely-recognized values of the minis being traded, that's all that's required for an ethical transaction. No one has to trade in accordance with the price guide. The content of the trade per se has nothing to with the ethical status of that trade. It's a question of the playing field. Roper for Iron Golem is fine, as long as both parties are aware of the relative values of those units. When one begins making trades like that knowing that the guy with the Iron Golem has never seen a price guide, it becomes unethical--that is, it becomes something that one would not like to happen to oneself.
quote:
Prices on Zenako's Price Guide are inflated.
Well, in many respects they are. $140 for a Drizzt? I don't think I'd pay $20 for one. Seriously. It's not worth it to me. If I was to buy or accept one in a trade for $20 from someone who felt the same way am I acting unethically? I don't think so.
By paying what I perceive to be the value of an object, maybe eventually the price would go back down to a realistic level. The stores look at the prices at other stores, if not the price guides, and then add a little bit more to their asking price because they can. If we blindly accept the price guide, and therefore the prices of the stores, we are only unrealistically inflating prices, especially for those figures which lie at the high end. The highs continue to get high, and the lows never seem to drop. The price guides are not a realistic market value for many pieces. Ebay might be, but that's harder to scrape data from.
Whether or not Drizzt is worth $140 to you does not change the fact that he's worth $140. If you have one, you can sell it on eBay for that publicly-recognized value. It's not your eBay auction will close at $20, and someone else's will close at $140 just because you each value Drizzt differently. If that was the case, eBay could not exist. The public value is the real value. Granted, that value came about arbitrarily--but it's a value that holds in the real market. It's that value of which you have an ethical obligation to make your trading partner aware.
This "real" value comes into play when it comes to taxes, too. If you trade a cheapo baseball card to some ignorant slob for his/her crazy valuable card, you are technically obligated to pay income tax on the difference. Why? Because the value, arbitrary or not, is publicly "real." The government recognizes it as a "real" value.
Now, in your example, you ask "if I was to buy or accept one in a trade for $20 from someone who felt the same way am I acting unethically?" The answer is no--you would not be acting unethically, as long as both traders know about the public value. Again, if you enter into that trade with someone who has no idea of the values of these things, then yes, you would be acting unethically. Immorally? Who knows. But unethically? Yes, I think so.
quote:
They're only pieces of plastic, so it’s not a big deal use every possible advantage in a trade.
Or restated, caveat emptor. "Buyer beware." I hate to say it, but this is a major underpinning of trade on this planet. Anybody is free to believe that free markets are unethical. I, personally, do not believe that this is settled moral ground. If free markets are unethical, many of us should think long and hard about who we work for and what we do for a living.
People value pieces for different reasons.and If both traders are happy, it's a fair trade.
I resent the idea that because I might propose or accept a trade that, by some arbitrary guide, is "lopsided" in value that I am acting unethically. That just doesn't ring true.
Caveat emptor is indeed a truth of free trade. But the discourse of ethics is, again, the discussion of how people should behave, not how people do behave. Online trading is based on the honor system--on the idea that "okay, well, I trust this total stranger to live up to his end of the deal, even though I have only tenuous basis for trusting him/her." If the Maxminis community embraces caveat emptor wholesale, then shouldn't we just reinstate the accounts of those users banned for bad trading practices? It's not a total free market here, and laissez faire value systems should not apply.
quote:
I agree that all traders would be benefitted by understanding the relative values of the minis they're trading. I don't, however, believe it's unethical to propose or accept any trade which benefits me, financially or otherwise. I don't believe it's my responsibility to educate the other trader.
So, when the sucker doesn't know about the price guide, the sucker pays the price because he's too green to know better? I wouldn't want to be on the short end of that trade, and I wouldn't feel good about putting someone else there. You'd be willingly obscuring what hundreds of people know and agree (even if begrudgingly) to abide by--I'd say that's "not conforming to approved standards of social or professional behavior," which is the definition of "unethical."
quote:
If another trader had no knowledge of the price guide here, and had developed some other alternative method of determining pricing (perhaps through a local store that valued minis very differently), and were making lopsided trades based on their personal system, are they behaving unethically? Because it's really no different than what happens here, it's just a different price guide.
The first step should be to discuss the context of your trade: to level the playing field, and determine the currency of your transaction, as in any case of [ethical] bartering. There are all kinds of value systems at play in this kind of thing. One of them--the retail market value--is public and prime, and grounds the ethics of the exchange. To disguise or obstruct it is deceptive, and unethical.
quote:
Other people did it to me.
Morally, this is difficult to defend, I agree. However, ethics derive from moral standards dictated by a community. Thankfully, Maxminis is not a very cutthroat environment. But there could be a place where "ripping off" newbies was not only accepted, but encouraged, and there would be little ethical violation in that community based on its moral standards.
Ethics are, again, the discourse of what should be, not what is. If we are invested in Maxminis, we should be be invested in its integrity and its future, and the way to do that is to be invested in the ethical treatment of all its members (all members are created equal). If we embrace just being out for oneself then we should not be surprised, let alone appalled, when people turn into bad traders or pull trading scams. That's just an advanced case of caveat emptor, right?
quote:
As far as my conclusion: I think the price guide is a useful tool, but to consider traders unethical for not using it is an unacceptable proposition.
I don't think the issue is whether or not a person's trades adhere to the price guide at all. The price guide is a baseline--a way of allowing all players at the table to get a fair shake in the trading market. It's up to every trader whether or not to disregard the guide at his/her whim, but they should be given the chance to evaluate what's before them with the fundamental facts in hand. Beyond that, it's all savvy and finesse.
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52 Completed Trades :: 2 Completed Sales :: Trade/Sale References :: Have/Want List ::Sealed Booster Generator
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| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/11/2006 2:40 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by sttmxn
Dr. X, I certainly don't speak for Wayne, but I appreciate your thoughtful response to this thread, and wanted to add my own rebuttal to your comments:
(snip)
Well-stated responses. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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DrX
Sergeant
408 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 2:40 AM |
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IanB and sttmxn, thanks. Appreciate the replies.
I guess what my feeling boils down to is that I feel that, again, it is not my reponsibility as a trader to educate someone I am trading with as to the values of their offers. There is a price guide posted here, which is admittedly flawed. There are ebay completed listings. There are local markets. There are personal desires and biases that affect a mini's desirability. I should not be expected to be sure that someone I am negotiating a trade with has taken into account any or all of these pieces of information. Anyone at this website of competent maturity should be able to take personal responsibility for whatever bargain they are agreeing to.
If we are to take into account the way things should be, then what should be is that everybody should come into a trade armed with the knowledge they feel they need to agree to a trade. Personally, I lurked and studied this website for about a month before I posted up a trade thread. I should not be expected to police others' knowledge.
That said, that's the ideal. I don't feel that I've ever violated Wayne's code of ethics. I have modified trades on this site that were lopsided in my favor. I've held a new trader or two by the hand as well. On- and off-site. But I don't think that should be the standard, or that anybody should have their morals questioned when they don't.
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HW List: http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=DrX
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12409
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 2:50 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by DrX
That said, that's the ideal. I don't feel that I've ever violated Wayne's code of ethics. I have modified trades on this site that were lopsided in my favor. I've held a new trader or two by the hand as well. On- and off-site. But I don't think that should be the standard, or that anybody should have their morals questioned when they don't.
Why not? You've made it very clear that you don't believe the above should be the standard, but you haven't said why not. You haven't said exactly what's wrong with going the extra mile to make fair trades.
(As a secondary question, sneakily related, why did you modify those trades that were heavily in your favor, and why did you hand-hold those new traders?) | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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synecdoche
Warrior
252 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 3:05 AM |
| I disagree with Wayne's essay.
First, as to ethical trading practices, in my opinion the ethics are both simpler and more complex than Wayne represents.
Personally, I believe it is nearly axiomatic that, in the absence of fraud, a voluntary exchange among equal moral agents cannot be unethical.
From his essay, I think Wayne would object that certain trades are so unequal that no rational trader, aware of their relative values, would make such a trade. After all, we would question the capacity of a person to act as a moral agent if they traded a $20 bill for a $5 bill because they liked Hamilton more than Jefferson.
From the perspective of an active trader, miniatures are like currency; they are easy to trade with objective (relative) values. But I suggest this simply isn't the case for most DDM owners and players. Not only do most people view the minis as toys (emphasizing use-value over exchange-value, in Marxist vocabulary), but trading is not as liquid as the trader's mindset implies. Colloquially, if I need a troll for my game, it may be just too damn much trouble to try to trade for a price-equivalent mini, rather than just trading a never-to-be-used pegasus.
Furthermore, Wayne overstates the amount by which non-mercenary motives play a role in trades. I've given a good friend of mine about $50 of animal minis so his druid has plenty of animal companions/summons to play with. Its hard to view this gift as unethical, but Wayne would say this person is not a real friend, only "purported" because he got more than he gave. After all, at some level this is a *game* and (presumably) we aren't here to maximize economic returns.
That being said, I would be uncomfortable trading a Troll Slasher for an Orc Champion to an uninformed kid. But this is essentially a pragmatic decision that is based upon a lot of factors that cannot be reduced to relative prices in the price guide.
Secondly, whatever your views about ethical trading practices, Wayne's conclusions simply don't follow.
1. Ultimately, we are talking about little pieces of plastic, not people's livelihoods. To the extent that sharp trading practices are part of the collecting "metagame," they are part and parcel of an activity that people voluntarily enter into.
2. Its not clear that enforcing (through moral suasion or otherwise) ethical trading standards actually improves the "market" in trading. For a counter-example, consider US financial markets where the opposite conclusion is reached: markets are "better" (deeper, more liquidity, more participants, more transparency) if everyone is permitted to trade at whatever price they think fair. Discouraging "unfair" trades simply drives trades underground, splintering the market and resulting in less transparency overall. I'm not sure the analogy is complete, but at least it takes more argument than Wayne has given.
3. Furthermore, moral hectoring and finger-wagging is likely to make the trading experience unpleasant for all of us.
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Champion of the Green Hag | |
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DrX
Sergeant
408 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 3:05 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
Why not? You've made it very clear that you don't believe the above should be the standard, but you haven't said why not. You haven't said exactly what's wrong with going the extra mile to make fair trades.
I don't think there's anything wrong with going the extra mile. I just don't expect it from others. And therefore, I don't consider it a necessary standard.
quote:
(As a secondary question, sneakily related, why did you modify those trades that were heavily in your favor, and why did you hand-hold those new traders?)
That's a really good question. Probably because I thought it was the right thing for ME to do to build a reputation in this community. Because it is the generally accepted practice here. Also, because I say in my trade posts that I use Zenako's list as a guideline for my trades. But I don't expect that treatment from others, and don't hold others to my standards, because of all the motivations I listed in previous posts. Maybe that's cynical. I don't know. I just don't like to tell others how to make a deal.
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HW List: http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=DrX
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12409
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 3:08 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by synecdoche
I've given a good friend of mine about $50 of animal minis so his druid has plenty of animal companions/summons to play with. Its hard to view this gift as unethical, but Wayne would say this person is not a real friend, only "purported" because he got more than he gave.
I don't follow that logic. You were aware of the value of the gift, and chose to make it anyway. There's no relevance to what I'm reading in Wayne's article, which is about people who don't know the value of what they're dealing with. Am I missing something? | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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DrX
Sergeant
408 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 3:10 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by synecdoche
Personally, I believe it is nearly axiomatic that, in the absence of fraud, a voluntary exchange among equal moral agents cannot be unethical.
Yeah! What he said. [:D]
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HW List: http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=DrX
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12409
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dagonet
Sergeant
442 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 3:10 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by DrX
The problem I have with Wayne's manifesto is that he called it "The Ethics of Trading". By calling it such, he is dictating an ethical standard which is based on morals that, it would be assumed, that the community here shares. If he had called it even "An Ethical Theory of Trading," I think there would be less confrontation.
Let's be honest here. I doubt your post (or any of the other confrontational ones) would differ very much at all regardless of what title Wayne had used.
quote:
People value pieces for different reasons.and If both traders are happy, it's a fair trade.
I resent the idea that because I might propose or accept a trade that, by some arbitrary guide, is "lopsided" in value that I am acting unethically. That just doesn't ring true.
I agree that all traders would be benefitted by understanding the relative values of the minis they're trading. I don't, however, believe it's unethical to propose or accept any trade which benefits me, financially or otherwise. I don't believe it's my responsibility to educate the other trader.
Whether or not it's your responsibility isn't relevant here, because we can't force you to accept that responsibility. Nor should we try. But Wayne's post is at least as much about how to educate yourself so you *won't* be taken advantage of as it is about setting up a framework for an ethics of trading. A newbie who reads it will know that there *isn't* any sort of Ruling Council of Trades who oversees transactions here, and that the points made by Wayne (Rare for Rare, Everybody's Happy, etc.) are the most common ways in which he/she can end up making bad deals.
quote:
Other people did it to me.
Morally, this is difficult to defend, I agree. However, ethics derive from moral standards dictated by a community. Thankfully, Maxminis is not a very cutthroat environment. But there could be a place where "ripping off" newbies was not only accepted, but encouraged, and there would be little ethical violation in that community based on its moral standards.
So Wayne's statement is unsound because of a theoretical place which may or may not exist? | |
"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people."
Champion of Kyuss and his Servants of Squishy Doom | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 3:10 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by DrX
I don't think there's anything wrong with going the extra mile. I just don't expect it from others. And therefore, I don't consider it a necessary standard.
Again, you've made that clear. And again I'll ask, "Why not? Why shouldn't it be the standard?"
quote:
Probably because I thought it was the right thing for ME to do to build a reputation in this community.
So it was a decision motivated by how you would be perceived for doing it? | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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sam500
Sergeant
419 Posts
Berkeley, CA
| | 05/11/2006 3:13 AM |
| I eat babies in the morning and cheat traders in the afternoon!
Rinse, repeat.
On a separate note. I got your minis today Wayne.
Your package will go out first thing tomorrow as agreed.
[:D]
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CHAMPION OF ALL TOWNSFOLK
47 COMPLETED TRADES ON MAXMINIS
14 COMPLETED TRADES ON WOTC BOARDS
I USE THE SAME HANDLE ON HORDELINGS, WOTC DDM BOARDS, AND DWARVEN FORGE FORUMS. | |
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synecdoche
Warrior
252 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 3:18 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
quote:
Originally posted by synecdoche
I've given a good friend of mine about $50 of animal minis so his druid has plenty of animal companions/summons to play with. Its hard to view this gift as unethical, but Wayne would say this person is not a real friend, only "purported" because he got more than he gave.
I don't follow that logic. You were aware of the value of the gift, and chose to make it anyway. There's no relevance to what I'm reading in Wayne's article, which is about people who don't know the value of what they're dealing with. Am I missing something?
The point is that trading value in this transaction is simply irrelevant. It didn't matter whether the miniatures were worth $.50 or $50. It simply was not an issue.
My point is that departures from relative price guides are not aberrant, but completely normal and moral for people who are not active traders and don't hold miniatures as investments.
In this case, I was (vaguely, within an order of magnitude) aware of the value of the miniatures. Would the gift have been unethical if I didn't?
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Champion of the Green Hag | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/11/2006 3:20 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by dagonet
I have to say, it's interesting to see the crankiness generated from Wayne's thesis. It's unfortunately hard to tell whether his critics are genuinely offended by what they see as someone telling them how to behave (Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral), or predators who perceive a threat to their hunting grounds (Neutral Evil). If I were someone who traded more actively (or a newbie) (or Wayne), I'd make a list of everyone who responds to this thread and the nature of their response, keep it handy, and take notes on how we all trade. When push comes to shove and no one else is looking, does Dr.X go out of his way to make sure Joe Noob gets a fair deal? Does Dagonet trick poor innocent, oh, let's call him Kyrin, into swapping a Displacer Beast for a Phoelarch?
I must admit that I will be more reluctant to engage in trades with those who have bristled at having ethical standards become a bigger part of maxminis. The "how dare you question my standards if my standards are not in accordance with this thesis" response is not a positive step in garnering my confidence. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 05/11/2006 3:21 AM |
| Note to all - this is the article in one simple quote (found in the article):
"As long as each party -- or neither party! -- to a trade is reasonably informed about the relative values of the pieces involved, the trade is fair and ethical. Conversely, if one party is clearly not informed, and the other party is informed and uses that information to make a clearly advantageous trade, the trade is unfair and the informed party is behaving unethically."
Don't get distracted by the rest of the article. I know that the reliance on Zenako's Price Guide distracted me when I was reading it the first couple of times.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/11/2006 3:22 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by synecdoche
In this case, I was (vaguely, within an order of magnitude) aware of the value of the miniatures. Would the gift have been unethical if I didn't?
The gift is not an issue of ethics. It was a gift. The value doesn't matter when it's given. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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synecdoche
Warrior
252 Posts
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