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Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
    
Australia
 | | 05/11/2006 3:36 AM |
| Point taken. Indeed, I intensely dislike the idea of having an "ethical" group of police on maxminis monitoring trading, especially if they then take it as an excuse to make personal attacks on people.
What do the posting guidelines say?
"With regard to "fairness of trading", I think I've made my thoughts known on that: Don't make personal attacks, the best option is to offer a better trade. You could also contact them by e-mail. You can make the observation that perhaps a trade can be better. You cannot flatly state that "James is a rubbish trader" or similar."
I agree with Jeff's basic statement of what ethical trading is. I may part ways with him over how - or if -it should be enforced.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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sttmxn
Sergeant
461 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 3:39 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by synecdoche
And would it have mattered if he had given me his spare wrackspawn in exchange? (which indeed, he had on a different occaision.) Of course not, it still would have been a gift. My point was that not all trades, especially not among active traders, are, or should be, mercenary trades for equivalent value. Very fundamentally, D&D minis is a game, not the stock market, and any set of ethical trading rules that ignores this will be missing something very fundamental. Saying that traders must be aware of the market value of the pieces they trade reduces multi-dimensional transactions to a purely mercenary transaction that ignores illiquidity and transactional costs.
I don't really understand the objection to telling the other person about the price guide. I can totally understand that two people may wish to disregard it, but I cannot fathom--outside of questionable motives--why one would steadfastly refuse to allow their trading partner to obtain some form of equal footing in the transaction.
Can someone explain this? | |
52 Completed Trades :: 2 Completed Sales :: Trade/Sale References :: Have/Want List ::Sealed Booster Generator
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 3:45 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by DrX
Because it's unenforceable. It's unneeded.
So is saying "please" and "thank you." That doesn't mean that people shouldn't strive for a society in which saying these things is encouraged.
quote:
It's silly moral finger pointing to a problem that I wasn't aware even existed.
Your own ignorance -- I'm using the word in its value-neutral sense -- is irrelevant. The problem clearly exists ... look at the posts to this thread.
quote:
You negotiated the agreements, nobody forced you into a trade. (This is a generalized "you", not specifically you, Wayne.)
Yes, an argument familiar to anybody who knows how grifters justify their behavior.
quote:
quote:
So it was a decision motivated by how you would be perceived for doing it?
Yes. Simply put. What of it? Just because I happen to personally agree with your code of ethics, and probably the code of ethics of the majority of Maxminis traders, doesn't mean I expect everyone to.
Why do you agree with this code of ethics?
quote:
I refuse to force my beliefs on others, especially when there are perfectly valid opposing viewpoints.
What is the "valid opposing viewpoint"? As I see it, there's only one opposing viewpoint: "It's okay if people in the DDM trading community take advantage of someone's lack of knowledge, regardless of circumstances."
What I'm trying to figure out is exactly what makes that viewpoint "valid." | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 3:48 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by MerricB
Indeed, I intensely dislike the idea of having an "ethical" group of police on maxminis monitoring trading, especially if they then take it as an excuse to make personal attacks on people.
So the question becomes ... is simply pointing out that someone is trading unethically -- according to the definition to which we both agree -- a "personal attack"? Or is it more akin to saying, "You're posting in 17 point bright lime-green font that nobody wants to read. Please stop doing so"? If it's somewhere in the middle, answer practically: is it permitted? | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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DrX
Sergeant
408 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 3:49 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by sttmxn
I don't really understand the objection to telling the other person about the price guide. I can totally understand that two people may wish to disregard it, but I cannot fathom--outside of questionable motives--why one would steadfastly refuse to allow their trading partner to obtain some form of equal footing in the transaction.
Can someone explain this?
I don't think anybody is purposely trying to keep anybody in the dark. I can't prevent anybody from finding the online price guide, or many other sources of pricing information. Nor would I want to. That's not at all the point. I'm saying that I would expect anybody that I'm trading with to have all the information they need or want in order to enter a trade agreement. I shouldn't have to make sure that they have the information. And vice versa. That's it. My morals shouldn't be called into question if I neglect to do so.
Edit: I see this thread is getting heated, and my philosophical objections to Wayne's essay are making it look like I'm justifying trying to rip people off or something. Nothing could be further from the truth. In any case, I don't think I'll be participating in this thread any further.
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HW List: http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=DrX
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12409
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| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/11/2006 3:49 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by synecdoche
quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
quote:
Originally posted by synecdoche
In this case, I was (vaguely, within an order of magnitude) aware of the value of the miniatures. Would the gift have been unethical if I didn't?
The gift is not an issue of ethics. It was a gift. The value doesn't matter when it's given.
It is a little disspiriting to see my entire response reduced to quibbling about the moral status of one example.
I wasn't trying to reduce your response. I wasn't responding to your entire argument. I just had a comment to post, and not an essay to write. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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sttmxn
Sergeant
461 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 3:53 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
quote:
Originally posted by MerricB
Indeed, I intensely dislike the idea of having an "ethical" group of police on maxminis monitoring trading, especially if they then take it as an excuse to make personal attacks on people.
So the question becomes ... is simply pointing out that someone is trading unethically -- according to the definition to which we both agree -- a "personal attack"? Or is it more akin to saying, "You're posting in 17 point bright lime-green font that nobody wants to read. Please stop doing so"? If it's somewhere in the middle, answer practically: is it permitted?
This is a salient question. My feeling is that holding a person publicly accountable for their ethics is a statement of fact, as this font analogy. | |
52 Completed Trades :: 2 Completed Sales :: Trade/Sale References :: Have/Want List ::Sealed Booster Generator
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sttmxn
Sergeant
461 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 3:56 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by DrX
I don't think anybody is purposely trying to keep anybody in the dark. That's not at all the point. I'm saying that I would expect anybody that I'm trading with to have all the information they need or want in order to enter a trade agreement. I shouldn't have to make sure that they have the information. And vice versa. That's it. My morals shouldn't be called into question if I neglect to do so.
If you already expect the person to be informed, why is it any significant skin off your back to confirm that, just to be sure? This is what I don't understand.
On a side note, this is not a conversation about morals--no morals have been called into question, even theoretically. | |
52 Completed Trades :: 2 Completed Sales :: Trade/Sale References :: Have/Want List ::Sealed Booster Generator
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synecdoche
Warrior
252 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 4:11 AM |
| Wayne/Sttmxn, if I can (selectively, but I think not inaccurately) paraphrase Wayne's essay:
1. (Only) trades among people who are aware of their value of the items they are trading are ethical trades; and
2. The Maxminis commnity should denounce unethical trades because:
(a) they are unfair; and
(b) they result in a "worse" trading environment.
I reject both 1 and 2.
1. There are many examples of trades that happen in the DDM community that depart from this criteria but should still be considered ethical. For example:
- rational ignorance ("I want to trade for a Chraal, and its not worth my time to figure out if you are 'overharging' me by $5")
- liquidity issues ("Sure I could trade this for more, but its too much hassle to set up an account, schlep down to the post office, mail a bunch of minis around, etc.")
- trades based on use-value ("I can use a Troll, not a Pegasus; I don't care how much I could trade it for")
- altruism ("Here, have a dire bear")
I'm not saying that people should be prevented from knowing the exchange values of their trades, just that knowing exchange values isn't necessary for a trade to still be ethical. I think that to be workable, the definition of ethical trades must be much more flexible and pragmatic than presented by Wayne.
2. Even if one accepts a standard of ethical trading, its not clear that denunciation of unethical trades is good because:
(a) the "moral hectoring" consequences of denunciation are bad in and by themselves; and
(b) trading markets that bring moral suasion to bear against these types of trades may not be "better" (deeper, more liquid, more transparent) than markets which are more supportive of a wider range of trading activity.
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Champion of the Green Hag | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 4:16 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by sttmxn
On a side note, this is not a conversation about morals--no morals have been called into question, even theoretically.
Well, that's not entirely true. Corim Danex, at least, has implied that he would judge people differently depending upon how they've responded in this thread. (And I agree with him, BTW.) And I was gradually trying to lead Dr. X down the path of examining his own actions and beliefs in the contexts of his statements about questioning morality.
Morality and ethics aren't interchangeable, but they are closely related. I don't think many people would disagree that they think someone is a better person if that someone adheres to strong standards of integrity. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 05/11/2006 4:21 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
quote:
Originally posted by MerricB
Indeed, I intensely dislike the idea of having an "ethical" group of police on maxminis monitoring trading, especially if they then take it as an excuse to make personal attacks on people.
So the question becomes ... is simply pointing out that someone is trading unethically -- according to the definition to which we both agree -- a "personal attack"? Or is it more akin to saying, "You're posting in 17 point bright lime-green font that nobody wants to read. Please stop doing so"? If it's somewhere in the middle, answer practically: is it permitted?
It's somewhere in the middle, but much more towards the personal attack side of things. It is something that I see as causing great trouble.
Here's an example:
Wayne makes a trade with Chris. I think Wayne has ripped Chris off, so I post publically, "Wayne, that was an unethical trade".
Points to consider:
* Did I know the full story of the trade? How do I know that Chris wasn't informed as to the value and made the trade anyway?
* Did I just lower Wayne's reputation with the rest of the community - regardless of whether the trade was ethical or not?
* What will Wayne's response be? Will it cause a flamewar on the boards? (And thus, people taking both sides and people leaving in disgust?)
Ultimately, I believe that Maxminis provides an opportunity for people to trade, and that they should be allowed to do so. Part of the essence of trading is a differing valuation on what something is worth, and I don't believe we should negate that.
Rather, I would prefer that the business of unethical trading be dealt with by educating the newer members of the trading community as to the suggested values of figures, so that they are better informed when making trades.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 4:22 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by synecdoche
1. There are many examples of trades that happen in the DDM community that depart from this criteria but should still be considered ethical.
For example:
- rational ignorance ("I want to trade for a Chraal, and its not worth my time to figure out if you are 'overharging' me by $5")
- liquidity issues ("Sure I could trade this for more, but its too much hassle to set up an account, schlep down to the post office, mail a bunch of minis around, etc.")
- trades based on use-value ("I can use a Troll, not a Pegasus; I don't care how much I could trade it for")
- altruism ("Here, have a dire bear").
These examples, all but verbatim, are already included in the essay as perfectly ethical trades. I don't understand ... did you even read the document you're arguing against?
quote:
2. Even if one accepts a standard of ethical trading, its not clear that denunciation of unethical trades is good because:
(a) the "moral hectoring" consequences of denunciation are bad in and by themselves; and
By implication, you're saying that name-calling is worse than taking advantage of uninformed traders? Really?
quote:
(b) trading markets that bring moral suasion to bear against these types of trades may not be "better" (deeper, more liquid, more transparent) than markets which are more supportive of a wider range of trading activity.
How are the latter better? | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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sttmxn
Sergeant
461 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 4:27 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by synecdoche
Wayne/Sttmxn, if I can (selectively, but I think not inaccurately) paraphrase Wayne's essay:
1. (Only) trades among people who are aware of their value of the items they are trading are ethical trades; and
2. The Maxminis commnity should denounce unethical trades because:
(a) they are unfair; and
(b) they result in a "worse" trading environment.
I reject both 1 and 2.
1. There are many examples of trades that happen in the DDM community that depart from this criteria but should still be considered ethical. For example:
- rational ignorance ("I want to trade for a Chraal, and its not worth my time to figure out if you are 'overharging' me by $5")
- liquidity issues ("Sure I could trade this for more, but its too much hassle to set up an account, schlep down to the post office, mail a bunch of minis around, etc.")
- trades based on use-value ("I can use a Troll, not a Pegasus; I don't care how much I could trade it for")
- altruism ("Here, have a dire bear")
I'm not saying that people should be prevented from knowing the exchange values of their trades, just that knowing exchange values isn't necessary for a trade to still be ethical. I think that to be workable, the definition of ethical trades must be much more flexible and pragmatic than presented by Wayne.
Your examples deal with the content of some hypothetical trades; the ethical question deals not with the content but the structure. The ethical trade must be built upon a foundation of equal awareness of value--that's all. All your examples are, as you've said yourself, totally fine, presuming that both parties are aware of the value context (that is the public value, or market value) of what they're trading. If one party is aware and the other is not, then there is an ethical problem.
Again, this is not about who gives what to whom, nor vice versa; it's about under what circumstances the giving is done.
quote:
2. Even if one accepts a standard of ethical trading, its not clear that denunciation of unethical trades is good because:
(a) the "moral hectoring" consequences of denunciation are bad in and by themselves; and
(b) trading markets that bring moral suasion to bear against these types of trades may not be "better" (deeper, more liquid, more transparent) than markets which are more supportive of a wider range of trading activity.
In the case of A, the point is disputable. If by "moral hectoring"--and again, this is an ethical matter, not a moral matter--you mean holding people accountable, then we start getting into questions of free speech. If by "moral hectoring" you mean policing trades, no one is advocating that nor is that necessary.
In the case of B, you bring up an interesting point: the question of what makes a "better" trading community. And here we have a real divergence of opinion that I feel is legitimate. Is a trading community "better" because it has more trade "liquidity"(by which I expect you mean volume and frequency of trades) without regard for equality or fairness? Or is a trading community "better" because it holds more promise of fair exchange for more people, without regard for trade volume? This is a question best put to the community.
I personally have no need for the promise of trade liquidity if it comes at the expense of fairness. I'm interested in an ethical and just trading experience, not a boomtown. | |
52 Completed Trades :: 2 Completed Sales :: Trade/Sale References :: Have/Want List ::Sealed Booster Generator
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 4:38 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by MerricB
It's somewhere in the middle, but much more towards the personal attack side of things. It is something that I see as causing great trouble.
I can understand that. My viewpoint would be, however, that in avoiding trouble on the surface, worse behavior is more likely to occur and go unseen.
quote:
Wayne makes a trade with Chris. I think Wayne has ripped Chris off, so I post publically, "Wayne, that was an unethical trade".
How would you learn of this trade? Did I post about it, bragging? If not, or if I didn't post the details allowing you to reasonably reach this conclusion, why would you post it?
It's true that the above behavior is problematic in the absence of knowledge ... but it's behavior that arises from the accuser's unjust assumptions, rather than from a policy of allowing the denunciation of unethical trading.
quote:
Rather, I would prefer that the business of unethical trading be dealt with by educating the newer members of the trading community as to the suggested values of figures, so that they are better informed when making trades.
I think this is absolutely ideal. According, I wonder whether it would be possible to include a "New Trader's FAQ" or something similar in an automated response when someone creates an account. If this were done, and it were made very, very clear that new traders are expected to read the document, all new members of Maxminis would have constructive knowledge of the existence of the OPG and the existence of various forums in which they can ask trading advice and questions.
Just like that, unethical trading based on lack of knowledge would become literally impossible (at least with regard to new members). | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 4:43 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by sttmxn
I personally have no need for the promise of trade liquidity if it comes at the expense of fairness. I'm interested in an ethical and just trading experience, not a boomtown.
I'm interested in both, with a preference for the former over the latter (obviously).
I also refuse to believe, until I'm provided evidence, that a lack of standards of fairness will lead to increased trading, rather than the opposite. (I'm sure it would come as a big surprise to the Securities and Exchange Commission, too!) | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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gausse
Sergeant
961 Posts
Wisconsin
| | 05/11/2006 5:36 AM |
| | I'd be happy to run all my trades by Wayne for his approval to avoid any infractions. [}:)] | |
270+ Trades Completed (194 maxminis | 50 wizards | 29 hordelings)
References: http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/view/topic/forumid/53/postid/435268/Default.aspx
H/W List: http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=gausse
Bad Trades: Chaotic Good (Strongbow Lone Eagle), dndonuts, Allard, ScottWallace
Email: gausse2@yahoo.com
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PaSquall
Underboss
1399 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 7:23 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
quote:
Originally posted by dagonet
I have to say, it's interesting to see the crankiness generated from Wayne's thesis. It's unfortunately hard to tell whether his critics are genuinely offended by what they see as someone telling them how to behave (Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral), or predators who perceive a threat to their hunting grounds (Neutral Evil). If I were someone who traded more actively (or a newbie) (or Wayne), I'd make a list of everyone who responds to this thread and the nature of their response, keep it handy, and take notes on how we all trade. When push comes to shove and no one else is looking, does Dr.X go out of his way to make sure Joe Noob gets a fair deal? Does Dagonet trick poor innocent, oh, let's call him Kyrin, into swapping a Displacer Beast for a Phoelarch?
I must admit that I will be more reluctant to engage in trades with those who have bristled at having ethical standards become a bigger part of maxminis. The "how dare you question my standards if my standards are not in accordance with this thesis" response is not a positive step in garnering my confidence.
100 % agree.
Not that my opinion matters that much in this thread since I'll probably never trade, but if I did I wouldn't be confident at all with these people, and probably wouldn't trade with them. | |
Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
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Daunte
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 7:51 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by PaSquall
quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
quote:
Originally posted by dagonet
I have to say, it's interesting to see the crankiness generated from Wayne's thesis. It's unfortunately hard to tell whether his critics are genuinely offended by what they see as someone telling them how to behave (Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral), or predators who perceive a threat to their hunting grounds (Neutral Evil). If I were someone who traded more actively (or a newbie) (or Wayne), I'd make a list of everyone who responds to this thread and the nature of their response, keep it handy, and take notes on how we all trade. When push comes to shove and no one else is looking, does Dr.X go out of his way to make sure Joe Noob gets a fair deal? Does Dagonet trick poor innocent, oh, let's call him Kyrin, into swapping a Displacer Beast for a Phoelarch?
I must admit that I will be more reluctant to engage in trades with those who have bristled at having ethical standards become a bigger part of maxminis. The "how dare you question my standards if my standards are not in accordance with this thesis" response is not a positive step in garnering my confidence.
100 % agree.
Not that my opinion matters that much in this thread since I'll probably never trade, but if I did I wouldn't be confident at all with these people, and probably wouldn't trade with them.
So i respond negatively to this thread and ill get put on a list of people who shouldnt be traded with. Yet all my trades on here have been fair and ethical according to Wayne's standards (not that i am agreeing with them). That makes a lot of sense.
Time to put myself on some lists i guess. I think the whole thing is a bunch of crap. Nothing against Wayne. I think it was well written and made a lot of sense on some points, most of it actually. But will i adhere to it, nope. WIll i worry about it, nope. THere are just too many loopholes to this, and everything in life to be able to set down what is ethical to one person and ethical to another.
If you want to agree 100% with Wayne and go by his ethical standards, great, it wont hurt the community in any way. If you dont thats up to you to. WIll it hurt the community, i dont think it will either.
There are still going to be people who have no clue about trades and people who take advantage of them. BOth here on maxmini's, on the WoTC boards and in local gaming shops everywhere. Its just a fact of life. | |
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griffrat
Commander
3507 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 8:05 AM |
| Okay, now that I have gotten some sleep and some food in me. This thread has exploded. Somethings got a little heated not really more tepid.
First off thanks Wayne for making me grab the dictonary to look up a new word... [:D]
Merric I concur with your last posting about the ethic plocing and personal attacks. Most interjections from third parties after the fact will only divide the community as a whole. Not good. This is also a topic of discussion in the handling of disputed trades. Anyhow, another thread and topic are devoted to that.
On a side note on notes Jefferson is on the $2, Lincoln the $5, Hamliton $10, Jackson $20, Grant the $50 and Frankiln the $100. Sorry, that was buggin me, something my pops grilled me on as a kid. Don't ask me about the backs of the bills!! I might cry and break down or something!! [:(][)] whew! Glad that is off my chest!!! [:D]
Now here is my take on the "thesis".
Ethics is about a code of conduct. At least that is what I have been told, and seem to recall from a class. Heck maybe it was that Disney movie with the deer and the rabbit. Anyway, the point of the matter is that if you are trading you should know what you're trading for and what the worth is percieved at being.
I recently declined a trade that was a rare for rare type transaction. I took the time to reply and stated, that while there are folks who do trade this way I am not one of them. I then went on to explain why. I felt (that is right I have feelings about the community) if I told/educated this trader on the reason why I was declining the trade, then he would be better served for future trades. I even stated that if he wanted to re-formulate the trade based on the examples I had given then I would reconsider the trade.
Reconsidering the trade and the explination of where I was coming from in the "perceived" value of the figs is the best way to make people more informed. The more informed people are then the better traders we all become. The better we all become at helping one another out; then the better our own conduct becomes. The better the conduct then by default there will be more "ethical" treatment of folks.
But hey I am just one guy in the middle of the country. A guy who likes this place. A guy that likes tradeing and helping people out....maybe it was to many Disney movies as a kid.....[:D] | |
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WakeXX
Warlord
10152 Posts
Edinboro PA
| | 05/11/2006 8:40 AM |
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"People are responsible for knowing the value of the pieces in any trade.
In legal terms, this is true. There are even legal terms for it: "arm's length transactions," caveat emptor (“buyer beware”), and so on. So yes, legally this is a valid argument.
Ethically, however, it's completely bogus. DDM is a hobby, and trading sites (especially) are communities. DDM trades are not arm's length transactions between merchants, but rather informal and (intended to be) friendly arrangements between people with a love for the game (if nothing else) in common. There is a huge amount of trust involved in that kind of relationship -- in everything from use of the U.S. and international mails, to trusting that someone sent when they claimed to, to not getting ripped off in a lopsided trade -- and only an unethical trader abuses that trust and hides behind these excuses."
I disagree.When I make a trade offer I assume the other trader has already read the trading guidelines,is at least aware of the existance of the price guide and knows what minis they want and want to trade away.I expect potential trading partners to have done these things before they post a trade thread,which is not unreasonable in my opinion.If I make an offer that's in my favor I trust that the other trader is intelligent and competent enough to be able to evaluate the offer and make their own descision on whether or not to accept.
If I was a new trader I would be insulted if every time I received an offer I was asked if I read the guidlines,price guide and had the mental capacity to evaluate if I thought a trade was fair.
I like making offers in my favor to see if people will accept them or not,especially when I'm trading away rares for commons and uncommons.It's not that I'm unethical,I always send my end promptly and have over 100 successful trades here,It's that I enjoy negotiating trades and making deals,that's half the fun of trading IMHO.
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Vash
Underboss
1995 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 9:26 AM |
| I have nothing against ethical trading, however the guide should not be followed as a religion, it is a guidline, but I do believe that point has already been addressed.
What I would like to know is everyone's opinion on Drizzt.
Now 'ethically' one would expect that someone who wants him would be willing to offer up $120+ worth of minatures to get him.
I'm pretty sure we all agree that this is absurd correct? Or are some of you so ingrained with this ethical manifesto that you think that this type of transaction should take place.
Conversly, Drizzt is only worth about $75-80 on eBay on a good day. Now is it unethical to value Drizzt at the eBay price but expect OPG values for the other minis involved in a trade? From what I seem to see that is indeed the case, as for it to be ethical both parties would have to had used the same pricing point for all the minis involved with the trade.
Also, if I were then to say buy 5 Drizzts off of ebay at the $75 dollar mark and then come over here and attempt to trade them for the $120 OPG value, does that make me ethical or unethical? I would see a lot of you saying that it's unethical because I am taking advantage of a situation. But at the same time, I know the value of Drizzt, the people I traded with know the value of Drizzt and gave me the $120 worth of minis so in that regards I acting ethically. But now I'm suddenly confused....
Maybe Drizzt is the exception to the rule, but I didn't think we had exceptions... | |
Champion of the Alhoon and my called shot for Unhallowed
Blood War Called Shot: Phoenix
Trade withe me! | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 9:42 AM |
| Any kind of official "guidelines" I am completely against. I have no problem with wanting to educate newer ppl and pointing them to Zenako's guide, ebay, etc. But to have guidelines up there on how we should conduct trades is just crazy. More structure and policing isnt going to help us. A lot of us like the freedom that maxminis conists of.
I havent had any bad trades, etc and I have had close to 30 of them now. And if this makes you not want to trade with me, whatever.. I'll live. But to think that I have to follow someone elses rules when I go to trade, is absurd. How I value my peices and sell/trade them away ends up only being my business also. No one has any right to come in and say/do anything about it. I dont hold a gun to the other persons head, or force them in any way, etc. You can't police people in something like this. I dont feel like I have cheated anyone that I have traded with, and have thought most of the trades pretty fare, but honestly the last thing I need is someone to review a trade and sit there and tell me how unethical I am, or call me out, etc. I shouldnt have to answer to anyone. And it seems like this so-called essay is telling us we need to answer to certain ppl or even the community. And I think you are crazy. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 9:52 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by MerricB
Ultimately, I believe that Maxminis provides an opportunity for people to trade, and that they should be allowed to do so. Part of the essence of trading is a differing valuation on what something is worth, and I don't believe we should negate that.
Rather, I would prefer that the business of unethical trading be dealt with by educating the newer members of the trading community as to the suggested values of figures, so that they are better informed when making trades.
I agree with Merric here. I completely agree with the idea that we should strive towards ethical trading. That is, the idea that both parties should be completely informed of the objective value of what they're trading.
I do not agree with the idea that the community would be better off if we tried to denounce unethical trading when we saw it occuring. I think that's a negative action and will have negative consequences for the community.
Trying to engage in some moral calculus about which has more negative consequences, denouncement or actual unfair trading, I think is missing the point. We should avoid both of them.
If you see a new trader and you thing they're being given a raw deal, you can offer them a better trade, or you can make sure they know the objective value of what they're trading. I think those are the only ethical actions you can take in those circumstances. | |
Champion of the Rakshasa. Check out my Mini Terrain Maker, or my new Dungeon Map Maker (under development). | |
| *censored*
glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 9:58 AM |
| If I may, I'd like to just comment on a couple of things
Mr. Wilder, with the outmost respect, what in God's green earth makes you the outmost authority in what's ethical or not? Is it your reasoning and extensive knowledge of the human condition and/or your personal views? The reason I ask is because you present your points as if fact with an apparent extensive insight of the human psyche.
While I agree with some of your points and disagree with others I would be a hypocrite if I said that those points I agree with were right and those that I didn't were not. Your views and my views are not the same views of Gallant, Goofus, Dick, Mary or Jane.
If I were a newcomer (and to be honest, even as a veteran) to maxminis I'd be horrified after reading a thread like this. I would be discouraged to trade here as I would think that there were a vast number of members who thought too highly of themselves and instead of presenting a friendly, let's trade for what we think is fair between us and have some fun, environment they followed a strict perhaps even an oppressive belligerent philosophy that imposes a demanding rigorous standard to trading.
A Ben Franklin may be just a piece of paper but not one goes printed without having the gold to back it up in reserve. The only thing that backs up the worth of a plastic miniature is the personal desire to obtain it, and that varies from person to person. I have no right to tell anyone what that value is. If anyone feels the need to put me on a list of "potential or confirmed unethical traders" because of my views, well, that's discrimination because of my beliefs, isn’t it? I thought we were supposed to be "ethical" about things [eyes] How about we are "friendly" first? [)]
I don't like it when kids are taken advantage of and I will always be against that, but that still remains a personal choice and view and I cannot go shoving my beliefs on someone else's face just because I think I am right. Trading with adults...well, in my personal opinion, ignorance is not an excuse. If they are happy with the deal then so be it. Gloating about it afterward on an open forum is another matter, and my personal view on this is that you should keep things like that to yourself and spare us from your "great deal".
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...if you think that trading mini A for B is unethical then please reflect on your life and if you (generalizing) have walked on the path of righteousness with no wrong doing then by all means may your aim be true, otherwise, if you have erred, like any men, then let's not argue the ethics involving the trading of little plastic toys.
One thing is to voice an opinion, another is to craft an eloquent essay and present it as a standard and to indirectly try to influence a community (well, at least those easily influenced).
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Trades >> Completed: 49 | Bad: Ø | Pending: 0 | Trade & talk Live on IRC! SERVER: irc.psionics.net CHANNEL: #maxminis | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 10:03 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vash
Also, if I were then to say buy 5 Drizzts off of ebay at the $75 dollar mark and then come over here and attempt to trade them for the $120 OPG value, does that make me ethical or unethical? I would see a lot of you saying that it's unethical because I am taking advantage of a situation. But at the same time, I know the value of Drizzt, the people I traded with know the value of Drizzt and gave me the $120 worth of minis so in that regards I acting ethically. But now I'm suddenly confused....
It's not unethical to "buy low, sell high". That's one of the ways economies create wealth. In your case, if you wanted to be completely fair, you might make sure the people you're trading with know that they might be able to get a Drizzt for around $75 on eBay if they wanted to. If someone, knowing that, still wanted to trade you minis worth $120 in the OPG, then you're acting completely ethically. And people might agree to that trade, for various reasons. They might not like eBay. They might figure that the relative values are still comparable, since the minis they're giving you would also have a lesser value on eBay. | |
Champion of the Rakshasa. Check out my Mini Terrain Maker, or my new Dungeon Map Maker (under development). | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 10:07 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
A Ben Franklin may be just a piece of paper but not one goes printed without having the gold to back it up in reserve.
Okay, I have no particular comment on the rest of your essay, but you know that US dollars are fiat currency, right? They are not backed by gold. They aren't backed by anything, really. The gold standard is not in use by any nation, these days.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_currency | |
Champion of the Rakshasa. Check out my Mini Terrain Maker, or my new Dungeon Map Maker (under development). | |
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griffrat
Commander
3507 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 10:08 AM |
| Right or wrong the one thing that I like about the whole idea of the thesis is that it is making us think, talk and communicate the virtues and vices of trading.
With this excercise we coming closer to a true 'norm" of a set of mores. This is what a community is all about. Like I said right and wrong aside we are thinking.....to me that is worth the ruffled feathers....
as long as we all keep the ruffling from plucking....its all goood | |
Ambassador of FUN!!! | |
| *censored*
glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 10:12 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Look folks, Wayne's opinion here fills a different but similar role to price guides, etc. It's a bit of information that someone can use to help make decisions.
:shrug:
So his personal beliefs are now being endorsed as a source of trading information by the Moderators? or was this just your personal opinion, Chris?
:shrugs too: | |
Trades >> Completed: 49 | Bad: Ø | Pending: 0 | Trade & talk Live on IRC! SERVER: irc.psionics.net CHANNEL: #maxminis | |
| *censored*
glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 10:13 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Benimoto
quote:
Originally posted by glumag
A Ben Franklin may be just a piece of paper but not one goes printed without having the gold to back it up in reserve.
Okay, I have no particular comment on the rest of your essay, but you know that US dollars are fiat currency, right? They are not backed by gold. They aren't backed by anything, really. The gold standard is not in use by any nation, these days.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_currency
[eyes] I know , just a figure of speech, money is money, mini is mini. can't compare them both. | |
Trades >> Completed: 49 | Bad: Ø | Pending: 0 | Trade & talk Live on IRC! SERVER: irc.psionics.net CHANNEL: #maxminis | |
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Sulaco
Underboss
1605 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 10:26 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
I agree wholeheartedly with what Wayne has written in this essay. I hope that after a time it will be put in the Trading Q&A section of this website.
If people are offended, that's what happens when unethical behavior is labelled as such.
Not quite. I was offended by:
"I only trade Rare for Rare. Pieces of the same rarity should all have the same value. Invariably, people who claim to adhere to this standard apply it with extreme selectivity."
This is not at all invariabley true. I almost exclusively trade rare for rare, only doing otherwise when the other trader elects to do multi-trades. In the past year I have traded away both a Cleric of Gruumsh and a LSD 1-for-1, each for single Balor. Yes, I traded a Large Silver Dragon for a Balor.
Given the much greater value attached to the figures I traded away as opposed to the ones I got in return I fail to see how I have "inavariably" been "extremely selective" in my trading practices. Also, I sintigated both trades and so no one took advantage of me. I knew what I wanted and I made what I feel is a fair and even trade.
The danger with using absolutes is that virtually nothing in the universe is absolute.
What I despise is people who, when you suggest a 1-for-1 rare trade, accuse you of trying to rip them off cos their figures are "worth more." If you don't want the trade then simply decline it, but don't play all high-and-mighty about it. Don't assume I am trying to "rip you off" cos I hold a different trading philosophy or value figures differently than do you. If you think that your figure is of greater value than you can say so without being accusatory.
Unfortunately, the era of the rare-for-rare trade is going the way of the Dodo, thanks in no small part to Zenako's list. Don't get me wrong, I think the list was a good idea for illustrating relative rarity and value and cheers to Z for putting in the time and effort, but far too many people took it as gospel. It is a vicious circle: figure X sells for Y dolars and that drives the price up on the list, then the next seller looks at the list and figures he can sell figure X for Y+Z dollars which drives the price up on the list even further, lather, rinse, repeat.
I fully support he effort to enforce the ideals of ethical trading, I do not agree with all the points presented. Also, being an ethical trader means not only trading in an ethical manner but dealing with your trade partner as if he too was trading in an ethical manner. | |
Champion of the Gelatinous Cube. Nemesis of Gnomes and Dinosaurs.
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. ~ Terry Pratchett | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 10:27 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Look folks, Wayne's opinion here fills a different but similar role to price guides, etc. It's a bit of information that someone can use to help make decisions.
:shrug:
So his personal beliefs are now being endorsed as a source of trading information by the Moderators? or was this just your personal opinion, Chris?
:shrugs too:
No endorsement of the opinions expressed. You can read anything you want and make your judgements. You can use Scrye, you can use eBay, you can use the Disputed Traders list, you can use Zenako's guide, you can read this essay, whatever.
Information & discussion is good ... I make no judgement or endorsement of the value of the content.
Can Z's guide be overblown in respect to some figures? Can eBay undervalue others? Sure ... | |
Triangle DDM Skirmish Group | My Email | 45-ish trades and counting | Stuff for Trade
* * * Show your brother some love and click here * * * | |
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griffrat
Commander
3507 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 10:31 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
.... You can read anything you want and make your judgements. You can use Scrye, you can use eBay, you can use the Disputed Traders list, you can use Zenako's guide, you can read this essay, whatever.
Oh great, Magic eight ball!!!!Ζ]
Is this a good trade?
reply:
Try back later
Just trying to keep the air a little lighter.......
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Ambassador of FUN!!! | |
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 10:35 AM |
| I disagree with the price list, and therefore your entire summation.
Perhaps I'll get flamed for this, but so be it.
I buy / sell / trade a lot of firearms in real life both on the internet and in person. I never expect a person to tell me how |
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