Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
    
 | | 05/11/2006 11:03 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Talistran
I disagree with the price list, and therefore your entire summation.
Perhaps I'll get flamed for this, but so be it.
Not a flame, but: if you deal exclusively with purchases and not trades, you really have little say here. This is about using perceived values in trades -- not monetary transactions. | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 11:05 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sulaco
Rather than this eassy, which is really just one person's opinion, I would rather an Ethical Trading Manifesto as established by the group as a whole. Not a "do this or you are bad" thing but rather a "most people agree that this is a good method" thing.
An excellent idea -- and we already have a very good base from which to work: Wayne's essay.
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My H/W list is not current...
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synecdoche
Warrior
252 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 11:09 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by sttmxn
The ethical trade must be built upon a foundation of equal awareness of value--that's all. All your examples are, as you've said yourself, totally fine, presuming that both parties are aware of the value context (that is the public value, or market value) of what they're trading. If one party is aware and the other is not, then there is an ethical problem.
I believe that trades can be ethical even if there is not an "equal awareness of value." The examples were intended to provide very concrete examples of situations where I believe that it is difficult to condemn the trades as unethical, even in the absence of "equal awareness of value."
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Champion of the Green Hag | |
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elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 11:14 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Talistran
Many goverments throughout history have attempted to legislate morality. Nazi Germany was one. Stalin's Russia was another. Sadaam Hussein is yet another example of a person trying to legislate morality. You are attempting to do so as well with your "Manifesto" on trading.
I find it sickening when ANYONE tries to tell another what morality THEY should be living by.
If we're going to have any kind of discussion at all, let's stop this line of argument now.
1. Nobody is proposing legislation. Legislation is backed up by the threat of government sanctioned force. As far as I can tell, Wayne did not even propose an official policing mechanism. Not moderators reviewing trades. Not banning unethical traders from the boards. Nothing.
2. ALL governments ever have legislated morality and will continue to do so forever. Why is murder illegal? Primarily because most governments have held the moral belief that it is wrong. There are other mechanisms (than making private killing not in self defense illegal) that some societies (most notably, pre-Christian iceland during the viking era) used to control violence between their members. The choice between those is a moral choice. Similarly, anti-discrimination laws are legislating morality. As is the proposition that all humans are equal before the law.
Nearly all of the important laws of any society have a moral basis.
3. As for the Nazi part of the argument, I could invoke Godwin's law but that would do a disservice to Wayne and the potentially fruitful discussion. I will merely offer an illustration of an equally invalid argument: Nazis and communists were bad people who ate food. Person X eats food. Therefore he is as bad as a communist or nazi.
Yeah, right.
All of this only serves to illustrate that the idea of legislating morality:
1. Has nothing to do with the topic at hand
and
2. Would prove nothing even if it did have something to do with the topic at hand (in fact, it's one of the worst arguments to have any popular traction).
It is absolutely acceptable and important to discuss these ideas as well as what is right and wrong in trading. I don't see why some people seem to be compelled to interrupt and suppress any discussion on moral subjects. What I do think is ironic is that they invariably cloak their attempts to stifle expression and chill speech and thought in the language of freedom. George Orwell lent his name as a description of such behavior. | |
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 11:15 AM |
| Kithmaker quote:
Not a flame, but: if you deal exclusively with purchases and not trades, you really have little say here. This is about using perceived values in trades -- not monetary transactions.
You couldn't be more wrong.
1) This involves anyone on this board because Wayne is attempting to legislate the morality of this board.
2) I stated that I "prefer" to deal in cash. You will need to note that I have done quite a few successful trades and have many more pending. You probably should read everything I posted and then understand it fully before telling me to take a hike. :)
I believe that everyone here is a "big boy or girl". I don't have a problem making "fair" trades... I just think that it is not only impossible to define fair trade, but morally reprehensible to attempt to "legislate" it in this manner.
Semper Fidelis,
Talistran | |
Fun little game...
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trollbill
Warrior
176 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 11:19 AM |
| I don't actually do any online trading as I have been fairly successful in getting what I want at a local level, so my comments are based on trading, in general, not online trading specifically.
What I consider to be an ethical trade is one in which both parties use the same standard. That may be a price guide, but it doesn't have to be. As long as the standard is agreed upon, it is ethical.
Like Sulaco, most of my trades have been on a Rare for Rare basis. The reason I prefer this standard is that I have no intentions of selling any of my collection, so their monetary value is moot to me. Recently, more people have been looking at monetary value when conducting trades locally. The sad thing is this sort of thinking has turned trading into a less casual affair and more of a businesslike one. It's also complicated trading a lot. Before it was simply a matter of, "I have an extra Marut but don't have an Iron Golem, you have an extra Iron Golem but don't have a Marut. Want to trade?" This was a simple, yes/no decision. But now when you start looking at the monetary value, things get a lot more complicated in trying to come up with a 'fair' trade. I go by these monetary standards because that's how the other guy wants to trade. But more and more it feels like I'm the one being taken advantage of because I don't hold my minis to a monetary value (again, because I have no desire to sell any of my collection).
Once I traded a Huge Gold Dragon for a Glabrazu. I knew at the time that the HGD would probably sell for twice or more the price of a Glabrazu, but both were rares from the same set, I had 2 HGDs and only 1 Glabrazu and from an RPG perspective, I thought it much more likely I would have a need for 2 Glabrazu than 2 HGDs. So I got what I wanted and the kid I traded with joyfully got the HGD he was never able to get his hands on. The only reason I regret the trade now is that my daughter has decided she wants to collect all of the DDM dragons and it will now cost me an arm and a leg to get her one because the 'all about the money' valuing system means no one is going to trade me (or her) by the same standards I traded the Dragon with in the first place.
This is why I have a problem with the concept of only using a monetary standard for determining ethics. | |
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Sulaco
Underboss
1605 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 11:24 AM |
| Caveat fabrico socius. Let the trade partner beware.*
I believe in full disclosure when trading, but it is not your job to educate your trade partner. Anyone who chooses to partake of online minis trading must avail themself of the available resources - these boards and its members among them - on the subject.
If I were looking to buy a car, a home, a stereo, or even a new breakfast cereal I would take some time to familiarize myself with the ins and outs of both product and process beforehand, and the same holds true for minis trading.
*can someone who actually knows latin do a real translation? [)]) | |
Champion of the Gelatinous Cube. Nemesis of Gnomes and Dinosaurs.
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. ~ Terry Pratchett | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 11:26 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Talistran
Kithmaker quote:
Not a flame, but: if you deal exclusively with purchases and not trades, you really have little say here. This is about using perceived values in trades -- not monetary transactions.
You couldn't be more wrong.
1) This involves anyone on this board because Wayne is attempting to legislate the morality of this board.
2) I stated that I "prefer" to deal in cash. You will need to note that I have done quite a few successful trades and have many more pending. You probably should read everything I posted and then understand it fully before telling me to take a hike. :)
I believe that everyone here is a "big boy or girl". I don't have a problem making "fair" trades... I just think that it is not only impossible to define fair trade, but morally reprehensible to attempt to "legislate" it in this manner.
Semper Fidelis,
Talistran
Ah, but I did read it. Note that -I- said "if" and "exclusively." In any case, Elder_Basilisk addressed the rest of what you said. But again, no one is "legislating." It's an informational article designed to ensure that everyone is aware of the resources available. If they choose to ignore them and/or use their own compass, that's their prerogative -- but it's also the prerogative of their trading partners to require the use of a consistent measure of value (whether that's the OPG, or eBay, or whatever).
The salient points:
1) Both traders must be aware of ways to measure the value.
2) If the traders can't agree on a consistent measure (for example, I will most likely not accept eBay values quoted by the other trader simply because I am not going to spend the time verifying that) then there are problems.
3) The OPG is a readily accessible measure of value already in place. | |
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 11:36 AM |
| Elder Basilisk,
Way to be a sheeple. :)
It is interesting to watch this board change so drastically in the few months that I have been involved here.
The leaks, this "Declaration of Morality", and many other small shifts in the fabric of this wonderful site.
Wayne himself stated that he A) got permission from the staff to post this and B) "hoped" that they agreed with it. Neither of those things were necessary in the post, except to lead the "reasonable" person to believe that the moderators / administrators / staff DID agree with him. He is in fact proposing legislation, althought unofficially, by stating that the staff agrees with him. This is the problem when one mentions MODERATORS or "The powers that be" in ANY WAY. If mentioned, they ARE stating that they agree with them TO A REASONABLE degree. They might not realize it (although Wayne seems intelligent enough so he probably does), but they are.
This is HOW things happen in the real world. Someone comes out with a popular notion, stating "non-support support" from the powers that be... but all the people hear are: The powers that be said they agree.
Better to simply not mention ANYTHING to do with the powers to be and thus not propose that they agree with it.
*****************
What IS happening here is legislation... but you are either not looking past the fluff, or you are purposefully ignoring the factual effects of posts like these.
*****************
As to your reply, of course GOVERNMENTS have set a moral standard. But we don't have to go down that road... we can make simple rules that don't legislate morality, but implore freedom of choice.
How many people right now know who NOT to trade with after said person succeeded in screwing a large # of people for a large period of time. Basically anyone who takes the time to research it and read the disputed trade thread. Which, I did when i found this site.
There is no need for this Manifesto of Legislated Morality to be had on this board officially... as "rip offs" just aren't a real problem on this board. And if they were, it STILL isn't the boards responsibility (morally or legally) to impose regulations or morality on those that come here.
*****************
Again, let me state that I DO trade fairly and nobody I have traded with has been unhappy... but it is simply ridiculous to legislate morality in this manner.
Semper Fidelis,
Talistran
P.S. edited a grammar mistake
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 11:41 AM |
| I'm with Trollbill on this one. This slavish devotion to the price guide has made the exchange of little plastic toys more difficult than it needs to be, and, frankly, less fun than it should be.
I've tried several times to trade older rares, in multiples, for multiples of older rares (often me offering 5 or 6 for 4 or 5) only to be told I was "ripping someone off" because the monetary value was off by $5 or $6. I am insulted by that. I don't think the price guide is an absolute - as a matter of fact, I know it isn't - because I know dozens of DDM players, but not one of them would pay $100+ for a Drizz't, nor would one trade 10 rares for one.
Look, there are clearly trades that on their face are unfair, maybe unethical (maxminis as a community has an unspoken "value" for minis, therefore it is possible for an ethical {but probably not moral} belief system to exist). But, to slavishly go by a price guide, and to imply that anyone that doesn't is immoral or unethical, is way to heavy handed for my taste.
If I have a rare from the new set, and a local here has a rare from the new set, we usually just make the trade - "value" be @#$%^#.
The fact that one person has already stated they wouldn't trade with anyone that disagrees with Wayne's original post makes me believe even more that we should not have something like this stickied. | |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
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*censored*
glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 11:43 AM |
| So an eloquent essay about how to make the most out of your trade by hunting naive and uninformed trading partners should be equally embraced? How about one about cherry picking?
It is not a legislation but it is a source of information that although perhaps view unethically it is a valid means of obtaining a trade/product, per your reasoning.
I have no problems with discussion, education, etc, I have a problem when people use words like ethics and morality and expect people to accept their views of them as "the" norm. | |
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DrX
Sergeant
408 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 11:46 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
quote:
Originally posted by Sulaco
Rather than this eassy, which is really just one person's opinion, I would rather an Ethical Trading Manifesto as established by the group as a whole. Not a "do this or you are bad" thing but rather a "most people agree that this is a good method" thing.
An excellent idea -- and we already have a very good base from which to work: Wayne's essay.
Oh, look. Somebody wrote it. A few years ago. It's stickied in the Trading Q&A forum. [:D]
http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12373
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HW List: http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=DrX
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12409
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 11:48 AM |
| Agree with DrX. :)
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Fun little game...
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 11:49 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by DrX
quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
quote:
Originally posted by Sulaco
Rather than this eassy, which is really just one person's opinion, I would rather an Ethical Trading Manifesto as established by the group as a whole. Not a "do this or you are bad" thing but rather a "most people agree that this is a good method" thing.
An excellent idea -- and we already have a very good base from which to work: Wayne's essay.
Oh, look. Somebody wrote it. A few years ago. It's stickied in the Trading Q&A forum. [:D]
http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12373
[)] | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 11:52 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by DrX
Oh, look. Somebody wrote it. A few years ago. It's stickied in the Trading Q&A forum. [:D]
http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12373
Oh, look. That has nothing to do with ethical trading. That's standard operating procedure. | |
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*censored*
glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 11:53 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by DrX
quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
quote:
Originally posted by Sulaco
Rather than this eassy, which is really just one person's opinion, I would rather an Ethical Trading Manifesto as established by the group as a whole. Not a "do this or you are bad" thing but rather a "most people agree that this is a good method" thing.
An excellent idea -- and we already have a very good base from which to work: Wayne's essay.
Oh, look. Somebody wrote it. A few years ago. It's stickied in the Trading Q&A forum. [:D]
http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12373
And not one instance of the word "ethic" or "moral" and clear enough to be understood as a suggestive reference. | |
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Idzy
Commander
3082 Posts
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
| | 05/11/2006 11:56 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by DrX
quote:
Probably because I thought it was the right thing for ME to do to build a reputation in this community.
So it was a decision motivated by how you would be perceived for doing it?
Yes. Simply put. What of it? Just because I happen to personally agree with your code of ethics, and probably the code of ethics of the majority of Maxminis traders, doesn't mean I expect everyone to. And I personally have no problem if someone doesn't. I refuse to force my beliefs on others, especially when there are perfectly valid opposing viewpoints.
[/quote]
Exelent point, and pretty much how I feel about it. I don't think people should take advantage of others, but we shouldn't be forcing our beliefs on others either. I think that the community does a pretty good job of educating new traders about the relative values already, thanks Zenako, Madda etc. | |
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*censored*
glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 12:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
quote:
Originally posted by DrX
Oh, look. Somebody wrote it. A few years ago. It's stickied in the Trading Q&A forum. [:D]
http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12373
Oh, look. That has nothing to do with ethical trading. That's standard operating procedure.
Exactly, and that is all we need and that has been working for all this time. There hasn't been any problems with trading except the obvious he who shall not be named and the other couple here and there, so besides that and the need for gloating of a couple of people in their "great trades" trading as it is and was works just fine in this community.
There is no need to start to hunt down and burn the unethical "witches", the inquisition was only fun in History of the World part 1 [:p] A better proposal would be to prohibit the unnecessary gloating of members that have gone thru with "questionable" trades. Keep it to yourself as the less fortunate grow green with envy [)] | |
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Master Peon
spikegif
Warlord
5699 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 12:10 PM |
| Just started reading thru this long artical. Conversation of this came up last weekend. I was watching (judging) the finial match taking place so I missed most of the discussion going on. I do agree with Waynes' "The Ethics of Trading" as I have seen too many traders take advantage of the new uninformed member of this site.
I do not think that "The Ethics of Trading" should be enforiced in amy way, but new uniformed member should be able to find informatin needed to help them understand what they are trading and what they are getting in return. | |
First peon to make it to "Knight Warlord"
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 12:13 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
A better proposal would be to prohibit the unnecessary gloating of members that have gone thru with "questionable" trades. Keep it to yourself as the less fortunate grow green with envy
Right, because it's not the "ripping people off" part that's the problem, it's the boorish admitting to it. Dunno what I was thinking. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 12:14 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by DrX
As far as my conclusion: I think the price guide is a useful tool, but to consider traders unethical for not using it is an unacceptable proposition.
This is where I stand as well. And I oppose the idea that Wayne's article, however well written, is the definitive guide to Ethics on trading. Might be his ethics, but they're not necessarily mine, and I reject the notion that I need to subscribe to them.
Case in point...
Back in the GoL days, someone I know had a few boxes of D&D minis stuffed into an HB starter box. I saw them, and asked if he played. He said he didn't anymore, and didn't ever use the minis. I poked through the collection, and among other figures there was a Medusa and Displacer Beast. I offered him $30 for the lot. He didn't even want that - he was going to just give them to me - but I gave him the $30 anyways. I thought it (and still think it) a great deal.
Unethical?
According to this article, yes. Apparently, I should have educated him on the full value of the minis, and paid a much higher price for the lot. Does it make a difference that he wasn't going use them? Apparently not. Does it make a difference that he didn't want any money for them at all? Apparently not. Does it make a difference that this person was actually my little brother (at the time, age 19)?
I don't buy it. Sorry.
When I traded more often and regularly spent more $$ on Ebay (we're buying a house this summer, so my spending money is currently far more limited), I often put minis on my trade list that I knew were inflated in OPG value, meaning, I know I could buy for low, but trade for high values. And I would often target trade minis that had much narrower OPG/Ebay prices. Is that unethical? I don't think so, but the article certainly makes it sound that way.
I also don't buy labeling someone as "unethical" as an excuse for a trading partner's stupidity. If you come to a place like this and don't do your research, that is your own problem. I've made "bad trades", some knowingly, some not. But I don't think any of those trade partners were unethical, and wouldn't accuse them of that, and would bristle if accused of that myself.
(For reference, the only time I thought someone I traded with was unethical was when they waited to ship minis until they received mine, despite the fact the trade was supposed to ship simultaneously, and they had very few trades to their name while I had dozens to mine. And I was more than a little irritated at that behavior.)
Sadly, what I see and what this article demonstrates more than anything else to me, is this community getting more and more self-righteous. Seems like it is moving from a very friendly community to a much more rigid group, and that seems a shame.
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 12:14 PM |
| spikegif...quote:
I do not think that "The Ethics of Trading" should be enforiced in amy way, but new uniformed member should be able to find informatin needed to help them understand what they are trading and what they are getting in return
Do you believe that the trading guide and the valuation guide need to be made more prominent then? What actions would you suggest to ensure that new members become informed when all of the above information is available already, right?
Just curious. This is an attack in no way shape or form.
Talistran | |
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Master Peon
spikegif
Warlord
5699 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 12:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by EldritchSoul
I'd like people to try this: find me an estimated ebay value for an efreeti using the method I described. let us know how long it takes you.
Now try that with 40+ minis being traded both ways and time your self. Make sure that only 5 or so are rares. This is very time consumming to do this with every trade offer you make every time as ebay pricing does change all the time. | |
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Most Edumacated
zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 05/11/2006 12:28 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sulaco
Caveat fabrico socius. Let the trade partner beware.*
*can someone who actually knows latin do a real translation? [)])
Caveat mercatura socius would probably be more accurate (although "caveat mercatus socius" could also work, being somewhat pejorative)[:D]
edited for typo | |
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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 12:40 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
quote:
Originally posted by glumag
A better proposal would be to prohibit the unnecessary gloating of members that have gone thru with "questionable" trades. Keep it to yourself as the less fortunate grow green with envy
Right, because it's not the "ripping people off" part that's the problem, it's the boorish admitting to it. Dunno what I was thinking.
I must've missed the town crier for I did not know you were anointed by the king as champion of the uninformed and took it upon yourself to start a Crusade against the world's unethical injustice to toy trading. Kudos Sir, I applaud you higher standards and may the just beam of light guide the rest of us wretched individuals! [:p]
I got it Wayne, your views are right and anyone who does not share them is wrong. You may have even driven some, with your words, to start making discriminatory lists of people based purely upon their beliefs [eyes]
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 12:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
I got it Wayne, your views are right and anyone who does not share them is wrong. You may have even driven some, with your words, to start making discriminatory lists of people based purely upon their beliefs [eyes]
Well, glumag, if there are such lists being made, if you keep it up you'll probably be at the top. (I have no such list.) | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 12:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
I got it Wayne, your views are right and anyone who does not share them is wrong. You may have even driven some, with your words, to start making discriminatory lists of people based purely upon their beliefs
Yes, it's just utterly ridiculous to judge someone by the beliefs he's stated and the behavior he condones. Dunno what I was thinking. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 12:50 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
Yes, it's just utterly ridiculous to judge someone by the beliefs he' stated and the behavior he condones. Dunno what I was thinking.
And it moves from an "article" to a "crusade", and watch the "us and them" division cometh. If you agree with Wayne, you're one of the righteous, and blessed are you. But if you don't agree, for whatever .... woe unto you. You are immoral and unjust, and probably a babyeater or some such.
I've seen discussions like this before.
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
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Vash
Underboss
1995 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 12:53 PM |
| | Why am I starting to feel like maxminis is no longer a fun place to be anymore...[V] | |
Champion of the Alhoon and my called shot for Unhallowed
Blood War Called Shot: Phoenix
Trade withe me! | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 12:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vash
Why am I starting to feel like maxminis is no longer a fun place to be anymore...[V]
Because the Kult hasn't been active enough! I plan to remedy that! | |
My H/W list is not current...
Trade Reference List
OLD Trade references (191) | |
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 12:56 PM |
| Wayne,
Nobody here that I have read has CONDONED ripping someone off.
I think the problem is that you SEEM imply that those who don't go out of their way to inform everyone they trade with of the values of their figures are being unethical or dishonest. Which is completely untrue...
I have never been accused of an unfair trade (at least I have never heard of any accusations) and I have made quite a few on and off the internet. I have always assumed that the person I am trading with (ESPECIALLY people from this site) have their own valuation of miniatures. I have my own valuation of miniatures.
If some kid offers me some miniatures and obviously has no clue of their worth, I'll let them know that they're worth more than that. But as long as he and I are both happy, who cares. I've been on the "losing" side before as well.
But the people on this site are all well-informed (too informed IMO, i.e. they THINK they are worth more than they really are) and they all have access to the same knowledge (same guides) that the rest of us do.
I just don't see this as a problem. But there IS a problem with you telling me that I am unethical because I don't act as an agent for my trading partner.
Semper Fidelis,
Talistran
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Fun little game...
http://www.mgcluster.net/?ac=vid&vid=11028679ac=vid&vid=11028679 | |
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Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/11/2006 1:06 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zaukrie
The fact that one person has already stated they wouldn't trade with anyone that disagrees with Wayne's original post makes me believe even more that we should not have something like this stickied.
One person did not say that they wouldn't trade with people who got offended, that person said that it would raise concern and decrease likelihood of trading. There's a difference. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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*censored*
glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:07 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
quote:
Originally posted by glumag
I got it Wayne, your views are right and anyone who does not share them is wrong. You may have even driven some, with your words, to start making discriminatory lists of people based purely upon their beliefs [eyes]
Well, glumag, if there are such lists being made, if you keep it up you'll probably be at the top. (I have no such list.)
If I keep it up? how am I supposed to take that comment?, you tell me. I have no intentions of stopping defending myself from a zealot doctrine that could very well split a community so just put me at the top already, I could not bring myself to trade with people who think they are better than others anyway...over little plastic toys no less.
Educate people in a friendly manner, do not write "the" norms of ethical trading.
Doesn't anyone realize the ugly turn this community could take...things are changing because of "essays" like this. What happened to the friendly place where you discussed things and presented your arguments but never, never told anyone to adhere to what you thought is right or wrong.
The very title says it all about the demeanor and undirect direction of it. "THE Ethics of Trading" should've been titled "MY Ethics on Trading". His opinions I can respect, his opinions in my face as THE norm I cannot. | |
Trades >> Completed: 49 | Bad: Ø | Pending: 0 | Trade & talk Live on IRC! SERVER: irc.psionics.net CHANNEL: #maxminis | |
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Vash
Underboss
1995 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:11 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
Doesn't anyone realize the ugly turn this community could take...things are changing because of "essays" like this. What happened to the friendly place where you discussed things and presented your arguments but never, never told anyone to adhere to what you thought is right or wrong.
I realize it, hence my comment, but you wordsmithed it better than I.
Between this, and the leaks, this place is *starting* to become far too divided and angry for my tastes.
And if I leave here, I leave miniatures as well as I have no reason to buy anymore...if this keeps up, expect a for sale thread coming from me soon...(not like anyone will buy cuz omg im not ethical or somesuch like that [eyes]) | |
Champion of the Alhoon and my called shot for Unhallowed
Blood War Called Shot: Phoenix
Trade withe me! | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:12 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
If I keep it up? how am I supposed to take that comment?, you tell me.
You can take it how you want. Just trying to encourage some calm, since several people are exploding over what they perceive to be some kind of personal attack.
quote:
I have no intentions of stopping defending myself from a zealot doctrine that could very well split a community so just put me at the top already, I could not bring myself to trade with people who think they are better than others anyway...over little plastic toys no less.
Doctrine? No. Split? Only if those who disagree with ethical trading choose to split off.
quote:
Doesn't anyone realize the ugly turn this community could take...things are changing because of "essays" like this.
Apparently it already has -- but from what I've seen, the ugliness is in the negative responses to the essay, not from the essay itself.
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My H/W list is not current...
Trade Reference List
OLD Trade references (191) | |
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:16 PM |
| Corim Danex,
What is wrong with people getting offended by someone stating that they are unethical when his basic premise for the ATTACK is flawed?
NOBODY IS DISAGREEING THAT WE SHOULD TRY TO BE FAIR WHEN TRADING... | |
Fun little game...
http://www.mgcluster.net/?ac=vid&vid=11028679ac=vid&vid=11028679 | |
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Anaxagoras
Warrior
318 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:19 PM |
| Wayne's post was a direct persoal attack at everyone who doesn't agree with him.
Simple rhetorical technique. If you state that everyone who doesn't do X is Y, then you are calling the people who don't do X, Y
I don't like being called a Y, especially not after what has been a year of pleaseant trades. I feel it is the job of the people I have traded with to call me a Y if they so feel like it.
Isn't that why the trade system has a feedback button? | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:21 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Talistran
Corim Danex,
What is wrong with people getting offended by someone stating that they are unethical when his basic premise for the ATTACK is flawed?
NOBODY IS DISAGREEING THAT WE SHOULD TRY TO BE FAIR WHEN TRADING...
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