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Master Peon
spikegif
Warlord
5699 Posts
    
 | | 05/11/2006 1:21 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Talistran
spikegif...quote:
I do not think that "The Ethics of Trading" should be enforiced in amy way, but new uniformed member should be able to find informatin needed to help them understand what they are trading and what they are getting in return
Do you believe that the trading guide and the valuation guide need to be made more prominent then? What actions would you suggest to ensure that new members become informed when all of the above information is available already, right?
Just curious. This is an attack in no way shape or form.
Talistran
forgive my poor spelling and grammer errors, if you have been around long enough you know I have many. I do not take it as an attack in any form.
I have no options about making them more prominent. I feel the info is posted and people should be able to find it if they take the time to do so. I have not done much trading in the past year, so I do not know if we are really have a big problem with this again. I do have a problem when established traders target new traders in order to get them to take lopsided deals and take advantage of them for not having the knowledge that they themselves do have. | |
First peon to make it to "Knight Warlord"
Completed Trades -148- | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:22 PM |
| Wow.
I'm stepping out of this since there are WAY too many people here who were just waiting for something to claim as a personal attack against themselves.
Have fun with that. | |
My H/W list is not current...
Trade Reference List
OLD Trade references (191) | |
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:22 PM |
| I disagree Kith.
As a person who deals with honesty and integrity in all aspects of my life, I take offense to this "Manifesto" (you call it an essay).
It is not-unethical to make a trade in one person's favor. It is unethical to lie, cheat, or steal.
If Wayne had stated the following as his thesis, I would not have a problem with his essay:
"As long as each party to a trade are adults and can reasonably be expected to act as such, taking responsibilities for his or her own actions, and neither party lies, cheats, or purposefully prevents the other from finding information regarding the trade, the trade is ethical."
'nuff said.
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Fun little game...
http://www.mgcluster.net/?ac=vid&vid=11028679ac=vid&vid=11028679 | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/11/2006 1:23 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
quote:
Originally posted by glumag
Doesn't anyone realize the ugly turn this community could take...things are changing because of "essays" like this.
Apparently it already has -- but from what I've seen, the ugliness is in the negative responses to the essay, not from the essay itself.
The number of personal attacks against Wayne in this thread is what is ugly. Many of the "against" arguments are arguing against things that he didn't even write. Many are reactionary comments of people who are reading other's interpretations of what Wayne wrote and assuming that Wayne meant what someone else misinterpreted him to mean.
It seems that some people (speaking generally about society) believe that the worst possible thing is ethics and/or morality. Things are hunky-dorry as long as nobody whispers the word "ethics" or "morality". Those words (and Wayne wrote about Ethics primarily, and wasn't specifically addressing morality) have some people's attention so much that they can't even see clearly what he actually wrote. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:25 PM |
| I second Anaxagoras's opinion that Wayne's "essay" is a personal attack against a large number of people on this board and hereby request that it is removed.
If the moderators want to allow him to repost it without the personal attacks contained therein, that would be great as I feel it has some merit as a DISCUSSION point if the attacks aren't there and it is simply his opinion.
Thank you,
Talistran | |
Fun little game...
http://www.mgcluster.net/?ac=vid&vid=11028679ac=vid&vid=11028679 | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/11/2006 1:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Talistran
Corim Danex,
What is wrong with people getting offended by someone stating that they are unethical when his basic premise for the ATTACK is flawed?
NOBODY IS DISAGREEING THAT WE SHOULD TRY TO BE FAIR WHEN TRADING...
But being fair when trading is somewhere around 99% of his point. I don't see that Wayne wrote in his article, "Talistran is unethical." | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 05/11/2006 1:28 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
I have no intentions of stopping defending myself from a zealot doctrine that could very well split a community
I fear it already has. [:(] | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:29 PM |
| It almost seems like the conversation has gone about as far as it can. Now maybe this thread will die in obscurity and we can go on as before, and not have to think about this "essay". I dont need someone telling me what is right and wrong. Your guidelines may not be mine. If you want to sit there and tout to everyone that these are your personal beliefs and they are how you evaluate trades, go for it. But dont try to present it as the Way of trading or some such.
A lot of good threads eventually die out and are lost to the past. Maybe ones we dont agree on will also.. =) | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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smetzger
Warrior
327 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:34 PM |
| 1) I try to offer as fair a trade as I can
2) Sometimes I don't have minis available for trade that the other person desires in equal amounts (by Zenako's guide) that I desire. I make the offer anyway 'cause there are only so many people that have the minis I want.
If thats unethical by your standards than so be it.
Also, I would like to point out the existence of another standard to judge the fairness of a trade. The Have/Want statistics...
http://www.maxminis.com/hwstat.asp
Sometimes even if you have a more valuable figure for trade there just aren't that many people who want the mini.
I think you really have to use both Zenako's guide and the have/want stats to form a fair trade.
One could argue that if you don't use both then its an unfair trade. I won't argue that, but one could.
I also feel that many people don't make good use of counter offers. If someone sends you an offer which you feel is lopsided make a counter offer. | |
smetzger aka Scott Metzger | |
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:37 PM |
| Corim Danex,
Wayne stated in essense:
You have an obligation to delve into the mind of your trading partner and make sure that he or she knows the values of all items that are being traded... AND if you do NOT do this, you are unethical if you gain ANY "value" in the trade because you are taking advantage.
That is how I read it and honestly, how it comes across to at least several other people on this board. As such he called a lot of people unethical traders which is an attack.
Semper Fidelis,
Kent
P.S. my reason for responding to this thread is not that I feel that I have been unethical in my trades, but because I don't like the direction the board is taking with these manifestos of morality. I think that we DO need to be a moral "community" with rules and regulations... but the "fairness" of a trade is not something that this board should even THINK about monitoring because it is not their business. If I get ripped off by Metalslut Fistwind, I do not hold the board accountable, so they have no business in my trade. | |
Fun little game...
http://www.mgcluster.net/?ac=vid&vid=11028679ac=vid&vid=11028679 | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:40 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
I'm stepping out of this
I wish you wouldn't. It's self-serving, or at least perceived as such, to defend my words myself, and there's only so many times one can exhort, "Read what I wrote," before realizing that's not actually going to happen.
It's my strong belief that most members of Maxminis believe in knowledge as a basis for the ethics of trading, but it only takes a few others to shout down those few who speak in favor of it. Since unethical trading is an "iceberg problem" -- only a small percentage of it is visible -- unethical traders want nothing more than for awareness of the issue to sink beneath the surface. People like you and the several others who have spoken up in support have most likely seen the same behavior I have, and think it dimishes Maxminis, and clearly wish it would stop.
Don't worry about personal attacks on me -- I'm a lawyer, and used to it -- or even on yourself. Just keep pointing out what you've been pointing out. It does change things ... it was a process almost exactly like this one -- and yeah, I was behind that one, too -- that eventually resulted in the OPG being so visible and so useful, when these same types of traders sought to have it banished, for the same types of reasons.
Finally, frankly, for those who know the history between the two of us, it's got to be at somewhat thought-provoking that we agree so strongly on this issue ... hell, I'm sure it's raised a few eyebrows that we agree at all. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/11/2006 1:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Talistran
Corim Danex,
Wayne stated in essense:
You have an obligation to delve into the mind of your trading partner and make sure that he or she knows the values of all items that are being traded... AND if you do NOT do this, you are unethical if you gain ANY "value" in the trade because you are taking advantage.
That is how I read it and honestly, how it comes across to at least several other people on this board. As such he called a lot of people unethical traders which is an attack.
Semper Fidelis,
Kent
P.S. my reason for responding to this thread is not that I feel that I have been unethical in my trades, but because I don't like the direction the board is taking with these manifestos of morality. I think that we DO need to be a moral "community" with rules and regulations... but the "fairness" of a trade is not something that this board should even THINK about monitoring because it is not their business. If I get ripped off by Metalslut Fistwind, I do not hold the board accountable, so they have no business in my trade.
Well, if you felt like his description of what is unethical was describing your situation, then I believe your conscience may have been the one making a personal attack on you, since your name is nowhere in his article. I fail to see any justifiable reason why someone would not follow through with the steps of making sure their trading partner is aware that a trade is lopsided against them. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:47 PM |
| Wayne,
You make it sound in your last post as if anyone who disagrees with you is an unethical trader. this might not be your INTENT, but it IS the way you come across.
As such, you are attacking me since I disagree with your essay.
I am simply letting you know that your words sound like they are personal attacks against me since I disagree with you.
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Fun little game...
http://www.mgcluster.net/?ac=vid&vid=11028679ac=vid&vid=11028679 | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 05/11/2006 1:47 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
quote:
Originally posted by glumag
Doesn't anyone realize the ugly turn this community could take...things are changing because of "essays" like this.
Apparently it already has -- but from what I've seen, the ugliness is in the negative responses to the essay, not from the essay itself.
The number of personal attacks against Wayne in this thread is what is ugly. Many of the "against" arguments are arguing against things that he didn't even write. Many are reactionary comments of people who are reading other's interpretations of what Wayne wrote and assuming that Wayne meant what someone else misinterpreted him to mean.
It seems that some people (speaking generally about society) believe that the worst possible thing is ethics and/or morality. Things are hunky-dorry as long as nobody whispers the word "ethics" or "morality". Those words (and Wayne wrote about Ethics primarily, and wasn't specifically addressing morality) have some people's attention so much that they can't even see clearly what he actually wrote.
I pretty much agree with Corim. It doesn't seem as though most of the counter-points are actually addressing what Wayne was posting about. I really don't see how he's trying force this on anybody. | |
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trollbill
Warrior
176 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
quote:
Originally posted by Zaukrie
The fact that one person has already stated they wouldn't trade with anyone that disagrees with Wayne's original post makes me believe even more that we should not have something like this stickied.
One person did not say that they wouldn't trade with people who got offended, that person said that it would raise concern and decrease likelihood of trading. There's a difference.
I have no intentions of screaming Bloody Murder over Wayne's essay, but I do see how his wording of some of his points can be very insulting. In an attempt to bestow understanding, and thus reasonableness, I will explain with an example:
quote:
What are the common excuses for engaging in unethical trading? Why are they bogus?
I only trade Rare for Rare. Pieces of the same rarity should all have the same value.
Invariably, people who claim to adhere to this standard apply it with extreme selectivity.
Wayne just made a definitive statement about people who trade Rare for Rare. There is nothing vague about it and there are no exceptions or conditions listed that would violate this rule. The use of the word 'invariably' is definitive. Thus Wayne is saying (though may not actually have intended to say) that anyone who uses the Rare for Rare standard is unethical and their reasons for doing so are bogus.
Now, as stated previously, I personally use the Rare for Rare method. I do not feel this needs to be justified, nor do I feel I have any guilt to aswage for using this method. I don't think, and perhaps more importantly, don't feel there is anything wrong with it. Yet by the wording used, I am labeled unethical. Why should I not feel insulted by this?
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:50 PM |
| Corim Danex,
That is as accurate as stating: All those who are arguing FOR Wayne's essay must have guilt because they have ripped someone off in the past and don't trust themselves to not do it in the future so want some "rules" put in place to prevent themselves from doing anything remotely similiar in the future.
You use your "if's" very effectively to not "attack" me. Good job.
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Fun little game...
http://www.mgcluster.net/?ac=vid&vid=11028679ac=vid&vid=11028679 | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:52 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
Well, if you felt like his description of what is unethical was describing your situation, then I believe your conscience may have been the one making a personal attack on you, since your name is nowhere in his article. I fail to see any justifiable reason why someone would not follow through with the steps of making sure their trading partner is aware that a trade is lopsided against them.
This is the biggest load of self-righteous horse crap (especially the bolded part) that I've read since a certain WoTC board poster called people baby-easters.
Funny, your name wasn't in a recent post, yet you claimed it a personal attack against you. Perhaps I missed the memo making the self-righteous exempt from such double standards.
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To the list with you!
Email: robby.anderson@yahoo.com | H/W List | My Trade Interface | Reference Thread/Completed Trades
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by trollbill
Wayne just made a definitive statement about people who trade Rare for Rare. There is nothing vague about it and there are no exceptions or conditions listed that would violate this rule.
Actually, there are, further in the essay.
Nevertheless, you're correct ... I should not have used the absolute in this case, and I will make the edit. I'm a Rare-for-Rare agnostic, rather than a Rare-for-Rare atheist. (In other words, it's possible, as I implied deeper in the essay, but I'll believe it when I see it, and not before.) | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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BigBC
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:56 PM |
| | Damn if being PC (that's politically correct not a player character [)]) hasn't caused the most problems for this world. I really used to enjoy coming to this site but it's starting to look like a war zone anymore. Between people telling others how to be ethical and what leaks are appropriate and everything else going on, you just have to step back and say to yourself, 'They're just pieces of plastic!'. To have someone say that a person belongs on a list just because they don't agree with a definitive statement made by someone else isn't comparable to Nazism, but it's definitely a step in the wrong direction. It's up to the people involved in a trade to decide if it's right for them. I have never encountered a trade where people said 'you have to get back to me in such-and-such an amount of time or forget it'. If a person doesn't use that time to get the most information they can about another's trade habits or price 'guidelines' (because that's ALL they are), then its that person's fault. I wouldn't treat someone new to the site as stupid just because they didn't trade here before. I've been here since 9/2003 and I've never seen so much BS as has been happening lately. Maybe this place has gotten to big for it's own good? Let's get back to the fun we used to have talking about and trading these pieces of plastic. | |
Complete: Ha, De, Ar, GoL, Ab, Dk, Af, Ud, WD, DQ, BW
Favorite Supplier
"Indecision may, or may not be my problem." - Jimmy Buffet
Champion of the Gibberling | |
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:57 PM |
| Here is a question for you Corim Danex, and to let you know I am not upset, I simply don't see how you could misunderstand things so terribly.
But here is the question...would you consider the following post offensive or a personal attack against anyone?
"It is my belief that anyone who has ever voted for a democrat to be stupid, unethical, morally lacking, and a freaking idiot."
Let me know,
Kent | |
Fun little game...
http://www.mgcluster.net/?ac=vid&vid=11028679ac=vid&vid=11028679 | |
| *censored*
glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 1:57 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
quote:
Originally posted by glumag
If I keep it up? how am I supposed to take that comment?, you tell me.
You can take it how you want. Just trying to encourage some calm, since several people are exploding over what they perceive to be some kind of personal attack.
I know I can take it anyway I want, I still ask you, what did you mean by it, your opinions is what matters as I hate to misinterpret itquote:
quote:
I have no intentions of stopping defending myself from a zealot doctrine that could very well split a community so just put me at the top already, I could not bring myself to trade with people who think they are better than others anyway...over little plastic toys no less.
Doctrine? No. Split? Only if those who disagree with ethical trading choose to split off.
so basically what you are trying to say is that those who disagree are the problem [eyes] is that how narrow-minded things have gotten?
You are defining his essay as THE ethical way of trading...ethics vary from person to person, understand that and perhaps you'll see that some of us are not fighthing against "ethics" or "unfair" trading but against a chosen few telling you what's right or wrong or how to conduct our personal business.quote:
quote:
Doesn't anyone realize the ugly turn this community could take...things are changing because of "essays" like this.
Apparently it already has -- but from what I've seen, the ugliness is in the negative responses to the essay, not from the essay itself.
Sometime the most appealing path is not the right one. What you might perceived as negative some might perceive as just. The point here is to respect both sides without letting people DICTATE how you should conduct your business.
Once again, I have no problem with discussing this, but with the notion that this should be applied as a norm thru trades here at maxminis or that people should adopt this behaviour...be it right or wrong it is no one's business to tell anyone what to do. | |
Trades >> Completed: 49 | Bad: Ø | Pending: 0 | Trade & talk Live on IRC! SERVER: irc.psionics.net CHANNEL: #maxminis | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2731 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 05/11/2006 1:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by trollbill
quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
quote:
Originally posted by Zaukrie
The fact that one person has already stated they wouldn't trade with anyone that disagrees with Wayne's original post makes me believe even more that we should not have something like this stickied.
One person did not say that they wouldn't trade with people who got offended, that person said that it would raise concern and decrease likelihood of trading. There's a difference.
I have no intentions of screaming Bloody Murder over Wayne's essay, but I do see how his wording of some of his points can be very insulting. In an attempt to bestow understanding, and thus reasonableness, I will explain with an example:
quote:
What are the common excuses for engaging in unethical trading? Why are they bogus?
I only trade Rare for Rare. Pieces of the same rarity should all have the same value.
Invariably, people who claim to adhere to this standard apply it with extreme selectivity.
Wayne just made a definitive statement about people who trade Rare for Rare. There is nothing vague about it and there are no exceptions or conditions listed that would violate this rule. The use of the word 'invariably' is definitive. Thus Wayne is saying (though may not actually have intended to say) that anyone who uses the Rare for Rare standard is unethical and their reasons for doing so are bogus.
Now, as stated previously, I personally use the Rare for Rare method. I do not feel this needs to be justified, nor do I feel I have any guilt to aswage for using this method. I don't think, and perhaps more importantly, don't feel there is anything wrong with it. Yet by the wording used, I am labeled unethical. Why should I not feel insulted by this?
I encourage all the R for R traders to head over to my trade thread and make me some offers, it's been a bit slow of late.
http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13542
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Zenako
Commander
3472 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 2:01 PM |
| The arguements are starting to come full circle.
The same points are being remade.
The heat is rising a bit.
Most people have had a chance to offer input.
An ethical code is intended to guide behavior, not legislate results.
I would hope that people would agree that it is a desireable goal to achieve fairness when trading. (fairness is not defined by meeting some arbitrary financial barometer, although that can be part of the equation, but by the overall transaction including all sorts of factors that can not be quantified (I like the mini, I need it this week, time value, I love LE faction, I gotta have all things dwarven, whatever). (Not buying, not selling, just trading.) That as long as a common system that is agreed to by both parties is in place, a fair TRADE within that system can be created. The difference between trading and buying is huge. Minis are not currency expect unto themselves. A grocery store is very unlikely to give me an 8 pound ribroast for a displacer beast no matter how hard I try to tell them it is worth more.
Please keep it civil. | |
Built the addition for this addiction, now on to the "gaming table" project....
http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Zenako last updated 29 May 2006
Set Status: in a nutshell = all of all
In Process trades 0), (Sig last updated 05/29/06) 300 plus Completed Trades -
If I seem scarce at times...blame DDO - Sarlona | |
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 2:02 PM |
| I would hope that you would NOT edit your original post Wayne as you stated you are going to.
Because by doing so you are making those argueing against you look like the ones at fault when you are the ones who had personal attacks in your post.
Thanks,
Talistran
P.S. again, I would hope that you WOULD repost this without the attacks in it because it does deserve discussion on it's merits. | |
Fun little game...
http://www.mgcluster.net/?ac=vid&vid=11028679ac=vid&vid=11028679 | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 2:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Talistran
"It is my belief that anyone who has ever voted for a democrat to be stupid, unethical, morally lacking, and a freaking idiot."
Must. Hold. Tongue. [:D] | |
My H/W list is not current...
Trade Reference List
OLD Trade references (191) | |
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 2:05 PM |
| Kith...
Don't hold back? I didn't say that... I asked if that would be offensive or a personal attack. :)
I think perhaps my point has already been made... but lets be sure. :)
Talistran | |
Fun little game...
http://www.mgcluster.net/?ac=vid&vid=11028679ac=vid&vid=11028679 | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 2:11 PM |
| No, I'd really better not. You and I are clearly diametrically opposed, what with the "Semper Fidelis" in your posts and your choice of the word "Democrat" rather than "Republican."
But to give a direct answer -- no, I don't find it to be a personal attack, because I know that someone who would actually say something like that and mean it is just trying to get a rise out of me. And further, I could then ignore that person for the rest of my life because I would know that I have nothing to say to him or her and he or she would have nothing to say that interests me. | |
My H/W list is not current...
Trade Reference List
OLD Trade references (191) | |
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 2:17 PM |
| So, any Marine now is not on your worthy list?
I would NEVER have said "democrats are dumb" thing, because it is an attack and you know it. I chose democrat instead of republican for no other reason than I had to choose one... :)
I am neither.
My point is still the same. Wayne took a group of people and didn't call them out specifically, but said that if you fall into A, B, or C, you are unethical. That is offensive and an attack.
You sidestepping the "democrat" question just shows that you can't admit when you are wrong.
Talistran
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Fun little game...
http://www.mgcluster.net/?ac=vid&vid=11028679ac=vid&vid=11028679 | |
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 2:22 PM |
| And just to point it out, for some reason you believe that we are "diametrically opposed" because I am a United States Marine and because you think that I am a Republican.
Silly me... I thought this site was for fans of D&D Miniatures / SWM, & AAM.
I find it juvenile that you would judge me and my worth based off the above criteria.
Semper Fidelis,
Kent Hinkson
USMC (ret)
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Fun little game...
http://www.mgcluster.net/?ac=vid&vid=11028679ac=vid&vid=11028679 | |
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Zenako
Commander
3472 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 2:23 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robby
quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
Please keep it civil.
So, as long as your write a well worded article, calling anyone who disagrees with you unethical is considered civil?
In many ways, yes.
Eth·ics
n. (#277;th"#301;ks)
[Cf. F. éthique. See Ethic.]
The science of human duty; the body of rules of duty drawn from this science; a particular system of principles and rules concerting duty, whether true or false; rules of practice in respect to a single class of human actions; as, political or social ethics; medical ethics.
Ethics themselves are not an absolute, however if Party A upholds a particular system as ethical, and Party B chooses to support an opposite system, then in the eyes of Party A, Party B is unethical in the view of Party A. It is possible to disagree on things and still maintain a civil discourse between parties, with the understanding that at the end of the day, it is likely that neither Party A or Party B will alter their mind, but both Parties felt it was their duty to at least make the other Party aware of the alternatives.
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Built the addition for this addiction, now on to the "gaming table" project....
http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Zenako last updated 29 May 2006
Set Status: in a nutshell = all of all
In Process trades0), (Sig last updated 05/29/06) 300 plus Completed Trades -
If I seem scarce at times...blame DDO - Sarlona | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 2:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Talistran
So, any Marine now is not on your worthy list?
I have no list. I'm not claiming to be any more "worthy" than anyone else (until I win the DDM championship this year [:D]).
It's just that... the military mindset (which is also almost always conservative) and I rarely get along. I don't presume to lump all people with military experience together -- I just try to steer clear based on past encounters.
quote:
You sidestepping the "democrat" question just shows that you can't admit when you are wrong.
I didn't think I side-stepped it. I made it pretty clear that I vote democrat (or at least non-republican). But I still know an attempt to get a rise out of me when I see it. Thus, I still say I don't see it as an attack -- more like instigation.
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My H/W list is not current...
Trade Reference List
OLD Trade references (191) | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 2:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
quote:
Originally posted by robby
quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
Please keep it civil.
So, as long as your write a well worded article, calling anyone who disagrees with you unethical is considered civil?
In many ways, yes.
Eth·ics
n. (#277;th"#301;ks)
[Cf. F. éthique. See Ethic.]
The science of human duty; the body of rules of duty drawn from this science; a particular system of principles and rules concerting duty, whether true or false; rules of practice in respect to a single class of human actions; as, political or social ethics; medical ethics.
Ethics themselves are not an absolute, however if Party A upholds a particular system as ethical, and Party B chooses to support an opposite system, then in the eyes of Party A, Party B is unethical in the view of Party A. It is possible to disagree on things and still maintain a civil discourse between parties, with the understanding that at the end of the day, it is likely that neither Party A or Party B will alter their mind, but both Parties felt it was their duty to at least make the other Party aware of the alternatives.
Ah, I think I get it. I can be offensive as long as I'm PC about it, and wrap my offensive statements in pretty rhetoric. So calling someone unethical is in, calling someone a book-burner (for example) is not.
Got it.
(Z - I'm not trying to be wholly argumentative or challenge the powers that be. I want to see the clear line here, but I think there is doublestandard in what is acceptable, and what isn't.)
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To the list with you!
Email: robby.anderson@yahoo.com | H/W List | My Trade Interface | Reference Thread/Completed Trades
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 2:28 PM |
| I've read the original post from top to bottom.
I've read page after page of back and forth.
Nothing has changed my opinion that people have to take personal responsibility for themselves. No one I have seen had advocated ripping people off, they simply state that if someone is trading on a board such as this, it can be surmised that they are aware of what they are doing. If they don't, they are at fault.
I agree with this. People are responsible for their own behavior and actions, I am not responsible for making sure they aren't uninformed, that is their job.
That being said, people who post about their "awesome trade of a handful of uncommons for a Huge Gold Dragon" are not my favorites by any means either. Each person has to live with the choices they make. Some make poor ones that include lopsides trades, others go out of their way to make sure everyone is happy.
Regardless, I don't care for anyone dictating behavior. There is too much "ethical" and "moral" micromanaging going on in the world as it is. I don't want to see it here. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 2:30 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robby
Back in the GoL days, someone I know had a few boxes of D&D minis stuffed into an HB starter box. I saw them, and asked if he played. He said he didn't anymore, and didn't ever use the minis. I poked through the collection, and among other figures there was a Medusa and Displacer Beast. I offered him $30 for the lot. He didn't even want that - he was going to just give them to me - but I gave him the $30 anyways. I thought it (and still think it) a great deal.
Unethical?
According to this article, yes. Apparently, I should have educated him on the full value of the minis, and paid a much higher price for the lot.
This misunderstanding seems to be coming up again and again. You do not have an ethical responsibility to pay a higher price, only to make the person aware of what the goods are worth. If the previously ignorant party chooses to go through with the deal anyway, nobody has done anything wrong.
I really don't understand why people seem to be reading so much more into this than is actually there. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 2:30 PM |
| Agreed kgradert13
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Fun little game...
http://www.mgcluster.net/?ac=vid&vid=11028679ac=vid&vid=11028679 | |
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Idzy
Commander
3082 Posts
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
| | 05/11/2006 2:32 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kgradert13
I've read the original post from top to bottom.
I've read page after page of back and forth.
Nothing has changed my opinion that people have to take personal responsibility for themselves. No one I have seen had advocated ripping people off, they simply state that if someone is trading on a board such as this, it can be surmised that they are aware of what they are doing. If they don't, they are at fault.
I agree with this. People are responsible for their own behavior and actions, I am not responsible for making sure they aren't uninformed, that is their job.
That being said, people who post about their "awesome trade of a handful of uncommons for a Huge Gold Dragon" are not my favorites by any means either. Each person has to live with the choices they make. Some make poor ones that include lopsides trades, others go out of their way to make sure everyone is happy.
Regardless, I don't care for anyone dictating behavior. There is too much "ethical" and "moral" micromanaging going on in the world as it is. I don't want to see it here.
well said.
It think it is kind of sad that this thread is getting as negative as it is, far more so than the religious topic from a few weeks ago, and here I thought religion was far mor contiversial. | |
Champion of Champions (for all races! even Gnomes  )
Reference Thread
Winnipeg Gryphon Cavalry Forums
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 2:33 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Talistran
Silly me... I thought this site was for fans of D&D Miniatures / SWM, & AAM.
*sigh*
I thought it was too -- but you're the one who brought party politics into it. I had been discussing the ethics of trading miniatures by mail.
quote:
I find it juvenile that you would judge me and my worth based off the above criteria.
Of course. Though as I stated, I'm not judging you. Don't get me wrong: I have respect for military people, especially Marines -- they guard our embassies where my wife and I frequent. I just don't get along well with them.
I simply made an assumption that was at least 50% correct (I would also venture an assumption that you have voted republican more often than you have voted democrat), and based on my past experiences, I can tell you that I am fairly certain that you and I would not get along well for more than, say, a game of miniatures. | |
My H/W list is not current...
Trade Reference List
OLD Trade references (191) | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 05/11/2006 2:35 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
quote:
Originally posted by robby
Back in the GoL days, someone I know had a few boxes of D&D minis stuffed into an HB starter box. I saw them, and asked if he played. He said he didn't anymore, and didn't ever use the minis. I poked through the collection, and among other figures there was a Medusa and Displacer Beast. I offered him $30 for the lot. He didn't even want that - he was going to just give them to me - but I gave him the $30 anyways. I thought it (and still think it) a great deal.
Unethical?
According to this article, yes. Apparently, I should have educated him on the full value of the minis, and paid a much higher price for the lot.
This misunderstanding seems to be coming up again and again. You do not have an ethical responsibility to pay a higher price, only to make the person aware of what the goods are worth. If the previously ignorant party chooses to go through with the deal anyway, nobody has done anything wrong.
I really don't understand why people seem to be reading so much more into this than is actually there.
No misunderstanding. I knew the minis were worth more than $30, I doubt that he did - and more to the point, I didn't find out whether he knew the value of the minis before I made my offer or while we made the exchange. The conversation went something like this:
Me: "Hey, if you don't want those, I'll give you 30 bucks for 'em."
Him: "Naw, you can have them."
Me: "I'm giving you the 30 bucks, and thanks."
Me: Snags box of minis
No education. Unethical?
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To the list with you!
Email: robby.anderson@yahoo.com | H/W List | My Trade Interface | Reference Thread/Completed Trades
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
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