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| | Author | Messages | |
Sulaco
Underboss
1605 Posts
    
 | | 05/12/2006 12:32 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nyjastul69
I have thrown nothing in your face, nor have I said anything in regards to your personal trade ethics. R for R trading just isn't as viable as it used to be, the hobby has grown, and there are too many variables for it to be this simple anymore. YMMV.
I know, man, I wasn't trying to suggest that you were being aggro or anything. I used your post as a sprigboard and went off a bit.
Cheers. | |
Champion of the Gelatinous Cube. Nemesis of Gnomes and Dinosaurs.
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. ~ Terry Pratchett | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 12:33 PM |
| | heh we should all just stop responding to the thread and let it die where it belongs. Eventually this will fade away and we dont have to worry about it. =) | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 05/12/2006 12:35 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nyjastul69
There's no problem with what goes on at the pre-release for the aforementioned reasons as well the people your trading with are probably fairly well educated as to the relative worth of the minis.
There's still plenty of room for trading abuse even when dealing with new figs at a pre-release. How many people are going to trade a Large Green Dragon for a Cadaver Collector? Oh sure, there will be some, there always is, but not many, that's for sure.
Even with new figs at a pre-release you can gauge pretty well what figs are going to be in high demand and which ones are not. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/12/2006 12:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by True_Blue
heh we should all just stop responding to the thread and let it die where it belongs. Eventually this will fade away and we dont have to worry about it. =)
Yea, that's like saying if we pretend that ethics aren't there, they will just go away. That's not a good reason to let the issue go. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Sulaco
Underboss
1605 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 1:25 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
How many people are going to trade a Large Green Dragon for a Cadaver Collector?
Me, probably. I tend to get a lot of dragons. It's kind of a "reverse curse". PLus, I have limited use for a Green Dragon, dragons are very rare in my D&D game, but the moment I saw the Cadaver Collector I instantly foresaw some great RPG uses.
Also likely my mate John. He hates dragons. No idea why. He'd happily trade a Large Green for a bunch of random commons and uncommons. | |
Champion of the Gelatinous Cube. Nemesis of Gnomes and Dinosaurs.
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. ~ Terry Pratchett | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 05/12/2006 1:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sulaco
quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
How many people are going to trade a Large Green Dragon for a Cadaver Collector?
Me, probably. I tend to get a lot of dragons. It's kind of a "reverse curse". PLus, I have limited use for a Green Dragon, dragons are very rare in my D&D game, but the moment I saw the Cadaver Collector I instantly foresaw some great RPG uses.
Also likely my mate John. He hates dragons. No idea why. He'd happily trade a Large Green for a bunch of random commons and uncommons.
Yup ,and you confirmed what I said.
There will be some that do make that trade. It's fine if you do. You have your RPG needs and I have mine. However, I think you and your friend are in a huge minority.
If you pull some Greens Sulaco, shoot me an email. [)] | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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kyrin
Commander
3171 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 2:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
Timing is very important to part of what you are saying.
At a release party all Rares are fairly equal, just as all U's and C' are equal. (Back when DragonEye came out, Bladesingers and Large Red Dragons were very close in value. A few weeks or months later the prices diverged due to the variance in demand for those two minis.)
Not as true as it used to be. Online sellers are getting savvy to the early buzz. Heck, maybe some of them even read maxminis. [:D]
So this begs the question: How far must we go to make sure our trading partners are informed? Must I bring a breakdown of presale data to the Midnight Release Party to be an "ethical" trader? Does that sound too extreme? Well, how much is too much to reasonably expect is a matter of opinion. And because it is a matter of opinion, it may just be best to rely upon people to educate themselves. As hard as someone may try to keep trading partners informed, an outside observer may well believe that they "should" have tried harder. That's when judgements, accusations, and ill will start.
Although, since no one has come forth and answered my request for what exactly someone should say and do to "adequately" insure that trading partners are making informed decisions, I wonder how much people have actually thought about this.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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Sulaco
Underboss
1605 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 2:30 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
If you pull some Greens Sulaco, shoot me an email. [)]
If my streak holds true I will likely get 3 or 4 of them. If so I'll drop you a line. | |
Champion of the Gelatinous Cube. Nemesis of Gnomes and Dinosaurs.
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. ~ Terry Pratchett | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 2:33 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nyjastul69
quote:
Originally posted by Robby:
I don't disagree with that - but I disagree that as a hard and fast rule, its a negative (unethical) thing.
I don't think anyone is claiming it as a hard and fast rule, wayne certainely didn't.
Most certainly he did.
quote:
What are the common excuses for engaging in unethical trading? Why are they bogus?
* I only trade Rare for Rare. Pieces of the same rarity should all have the same value.
Almost invariably, people who claim to adhere to this standard apply it with extreme selectivity.
For example, assume Trader Gallant has a Beholder for trade, and needs a Marut. Trader Goofus has a Marut and say he trades "Rare for Rare." Trader Gallant accepts and makes the trade. Two weeks later, Trader Gallant needs an Orc Champion. Trader Goofus has an Orc Champion, and lists among his wants a Warforged Barbarian. Trader Gallant has the Warforged Barbarian and offers Trader Goofus' terms of "Rare for Rare." Unless Trader Goofus is saint-like, he will never accept that offer. Net result -- Trader Goofus has taken advantage of Trader Gallant by claiming a trading standard to which he does not actually adhere. Trader Goofus is an unethical trader.
That is the direct text regarding rare for rare. I see no exceptions or exclusions. In fact, it looks at my exact example, seletive rare for rare trading. At the midnight release, I might very well trade my Dromite for an Iron Golem (well, probably a Dromite + an uncommon, because of the size difference), if I had a willing partner - and trades like that get made at our midnight releases all the time. Two weeks later, its highly unlikely I'd make the reverse trade, even assuming I really wanted a Dromite (and the uncommon) and had a spare Iron Golem.
quote:
There's no problem with what goes on at the pre-release for the aforementioned reasons as well the people your trading with are probably fairly well educated as to the relative worth of the minis.
I wouldn't make that assumption. (And minor but relevant nitpick - not a pre-release tournament, a midnight release party. Way different crowds attend each event.) Look at the example again - a lot of these traders are folks that don't frequent this forum, nor regularly trade, nor hang in the minis scene at all.
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Zenako
Commander
3472 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 2:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robby
That is the direct text regarding rare for rare. I see no exceptions or exclusions. In fact, it looks at my exact example, seletive rare for rare trading. At the midnight release, I might very well trade my Dromite for an Iron Golem (well, probably a Dromite + an uncommon, because of the size difference), if I had a willing partner - and trades like that get made at our midnight releases all the time. Two weeks later, its highly unlikely I'd make the reverse trade, even assuming I really wanted a Dromite (and the uncommon) and had a spare Iron Golem.
If you are a value trader, understandable since the "values" may well have diverged in those two weeks, but if you were the rare for rare trader, why not? If it was a fair trade on day one, why would it not be a fair trade on day 15?
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Built the addition for this addiction, now on to the "gaming table" project....
http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Zenako last updated 29 May 2006
Set Status: in a nutshell = all of all
In Process trades 0), (Sig last updated 05/29/06) 300 plus Completed Trades -
If I seem scarce at times...blame DDO - Sarlona | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 3:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
For all those who object to the language or wording Wayne used to define what he believed consituted an "ethical trade", what would you put in its place?
Good question (although it goes beyond simple wording; the tone is condescending at best, inflammatory - as we've seen - at worst). I would leave ethics out of it completely. How about "what is good for the community"? His claimed premise "Don't take advantage of other traders' ignorance to score lopsided trades" is a great general rule for "What is good for the community".
quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
It would seem that many of the posters who have issues with what was said, would also have issues with religious authorities who put forth codes of behavior that must be followed to be considered a "true" member of that faith.
If I chose to join that faith, I wouldn't have issues with the authorities and their codes of conduct. Wouldn't that be the point of joining a faith?
But this isn't a religious organization (or at least, I thought it wasn't - I'm beginning to revise that opinion), and I don't see and hope I don't ever see a list of "true" members of maxminis. I'd like to keep it away from that. We're game geeks. There should be plenty of room for diversity here. There should be room for differing thoughts and opinions without labels being slung around.
quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
That you do not want anyone telling you how to conduct your lives.
Lots of people tell me how to conduct various aspects of my affairs, some I listen to (parents, spouse, my kid, boss, co-workers, friends), and some I don't. That comes with the committments I've made to them, in whatever forms. But that is a choice *I* make. The same choice I make to subscribe to the laws of society. However, I do resent other people attempting to force my conduct and behavior based on their personal codes.
quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
The conflict arises when one wishes to be part of an organization or community that expects one thing, but you reject that aspect of the community.
The question then arises of what does exactly THIS community expect.
If this community as a whole decides that its expectations for its members are contained in Wayne's article, then count me out. I deal with enough sanctimonious, self-righteous crap during my day.
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sttmxn
Sergeant
461 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 3:12 PM |
| As stimulating as this discussion is, I'm going to have to leave it to the rest of you to finish--it's way too high maintenance for me to keep up with.
A few things to follow up on from pages ago, since a few challenges we're thrown my way. Since I can't really devote any more time to this, I'll try to keep them from inspiring any new challenges (to me).
quote:
Originally posted by DrX
But you didn't know how I was valuing MY figures. You didn't ask, and I didn't tell you. They were equal in value by YOUR estimation, as well as, not coincidentally, the estimation of the price guide.
Maybe I was "taking advantage" of you if I had a local market that overvalued the pieces I was trading for. Do I owe you more then? Did I act unethically if I immediately traded the Ghaele you traded me for something far more valuable by the OPG, maybe to someone who knows about but doesn't follow the OPG? This didn't happen, but it could have...
The valuing of figures is subjective. Basing community ethical guidelines on a valuation that can be subjective to that very community is not going to realistically work.
This discussion has centered, all along, on the pros/cons of using the OPG as a value barometer for the Maxminis community. There are, granted, many other systems of value in the world. I may consider my Beholder to be worth $1000. Now if you told me that was unrealistic, what would you think if I said, "Well, that's how I value it, and all value systems are valid." What has been put forth herein is that within Maxminis ethical trades occur when both parties are aware of the market value of those minis, based on the Maxminis OPG, whether or not those traders choose to honor those market values. Yes, there are always subjective elements to trades. But because subjectivity goes all over the map (by nature), and cannot be codified into ethics, the ethics have to be based on something generally experienced, and publicly-verifiable (see Heidegger on the matter of time). The OPG is a reasonable (if imperfect, of course) portrait of the market, and is readily accessible to all Maxminis users, new and old, experienced and unexperienced. Every Maxminis users has the right to be directed to that OPG before trading to prevent themselves from getting ripped off. If two people are trading on Maxminis, and that trade is lopsided from a market-value perspective, I believe the trader who recognizes that fact has an ethical obligation to bring it to the attention of the other trader. One should be willing to take the risk, in order to be fair. Who knows, the other guy may say "Yeah, I know; I don't really care." Why not take that risk, unless you are putting your own interests ahead of guaranteed fairness? Don't answer that--I won't have time to respond to your response.
Note that, at one time, before my time on Maxminis, there was no OPG. I would have had a [slightly] different stance then. The issue would have been [slightly] more complicated, as market value would not have been so readily handy. Incidentally, under those circumstances, you would probably approve even less of my outlook.
quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
This is, pure and simple, balderdash. If you say that behavior X is unethical, then you are OF COURSE saying that anyone who performs behavior X is an unethical person. To argue semantics like that is intellectual cowardice of the worst degree. And it *is* an attack, EVEN IF IT IS TRUE. Merric's Laws don't say, "Thou shalt not commit slander or libel." His Laws say "Thou shalt not ATTACK."
So Jeff didn't name names. Great. So he made a gross generalization, which is MUCH better, of course.
I understand your objection here, kyrin, and I will concede that the point that no one has been directly accused was not my finest. I maintain it's still technically true, but it's not the most elegant of truths.
Having said that, this is tricky terrain. To even initiate the subject of what is and isn't ethical is going to create a sphere of inference in which people are going to feel accused, whether they are or not. It's in the nature of the subject matter. In other words, the line between a discussion of ethics which from which one can derive specific applications and gross generalizations judging groups of people is a fine one. I think Wayne and those who support his position have stayed on the on the former side of that fine line.
quote:
How patronizing this is. Robby OBVIOUSLY feels attacked. That's his opinion, certainly, but why is YOUR opinion more important than his? You can say that no one INTENDED to attack him, but that is ALL. Try understanding his feelings, instead of just denying them. It's called respect.
I don't think I said anything that reflected that I was not being understanding about his feelings. Now, I did not celebrate them, to be sure. My goal was to keep this out of the realm of Feelings entirely, and to stick to the nuts-and-bolts of the discussion. If we could have filtered out some of the feelings, this thread probably wouldn't have gotten to be 11 pages long.
And it's not that I don't think feelings have a place in community discussion; I just felt that at this stage of the conversation, they were obstructing understanding more than aiding it.
quote:
And how are we to accomplish this? EXACTLY how? Is a disclaimer in our trading threads or signatures adequate?
"I expect that anyone who has made me a trade offer or responded to one of my offers has consulted resources like the Maxminis Online Price Guide, and is informed about the value of their miniatures on the trading market."
Is that OK as a blanket disclaimer? Or do I have to include it in EVERY SINGLE TRADE OFFER I MAKE? The fact is, that I have a pretty busy life, and may not remember to include that in every offer I make or respond to. And I don't want to be tarred with a cheater's brush just because I'm busy and have a feeble memory.
So what is the word? How shall we be expected to cover the bases? I need guidelines here.
This is frustrating, and unfortunate. Talking about the unimplementability of a concept is so often used to shut down a concept that people don't like, but can't figure out how to debunk. In this case, I don't think the praxis of these ethics is particularly complicated. I already spoke about this on page 9. I'll quote it here, rather than restate it:
quote:
Originally posted by sttmxn:
Tell them what system of value you use, ask them what they use. Discuss the usual systems, i.e., the OPG, and determine how each of you feel about it. If they don't have any paticular system, direct them to the OPG. Try to find a common ground. Communicate in an effort to create the basis for a fair trade. Treat them like an equal, not an opportunity. If you can't find a common ground, don't trade.
Is this really that hard? You're already writing emails to initiate or respond to trades. Unless you have arthritis or a repetetive stress injury, is it really that hard to add a sentence or two to ensure fairness? We claim to be a community, so let's talk to each other. I know you're busy; I'm busy, too. I hope I'm never too busy to make sure someone offering me a Displacer Beast for my Human Cleric of Bane knows s/he's offering up an imbalanced trade. Again, s/he may say "I know."
I know it's advantageous to make it look like standards of ethics make the trading process obscenely arduous, but the fact is it's not that hard. [Having said that, Maxminis could make it easier by making the OPG more high-profile.] The question is whether or not people actually want to ensure fairness. It's one thing to say, "yeah, I'm for fair trades." It's another to say "I will work to make sure everyone gets a chance at a fair trade." But this has all been covered, many times over, in this thread.
The following was not addressed to me specifically, but I wanted to respond, all the same:
quote:
Originally posted by WakeXX:
I think if someone is going to start trading online they should take the inititive and do some research before posting a trade thread.There are plenty of threads,guides,heck even a whole Trading Q&A forum devoted to this task!I personally find it unethical to hold people's hands as I feel it discourages them to start thinking for themselves if other people are always doing the thinking for them!
It's one thing to say that you think people should be responsible for getting themselves up to speed (presuming they know there's a speed to get up to) with trades. That's a position with which I disagree, but which I understand. However, to say that you are going to improve these people--to teach them to think for themselves--by denying them support in a new community is pushing it. Do you want to have Merric remove all the posting guidelines? People should figure it out for themselves. How about the reference threads? Have a bad trade or two, and figure it out, newbie.
Community is impossible without support. I think this applies at every level of the community, including [especially?] trading.
[Maybe your use of the inimitable smiley was supposed to indicate that you were kidding here, but I wanted to address the point, just in case.]
quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
So this begs the question: How far must we go to make sure our trading partners are informed? Must I bring a breakdown of presale data to the Midnight Release Party to be an "ethical" trader? Does that sound too extreme? Well, how much is too much to reasonably expect is a matter of opinion. And because it is a matter of opinion, it may just be best to rely upon people to educate themselves. As hard as someone may try to keep trading partners informed, an outside observer may well believe that they "should" have tried harder. That's when judgements, accusations, and ill will start.
Again, I don't think this is as difficult as you'd like to dress it up to be. The practice of ethical trading is not an exact science; like any social phenomenon, it has rounded corners, soft edges, and subtleties. The point is: try to make sure the other person is getting a fair shake. If it feels lopsided, check in with him/her about it. Point them to the OPG as something they can use to get a feel for the market values. If you want, as a kicker, tell them that you think the OPG is inflated. Whatever. But give the person who's in the dark the benefits that you've had. Let him/her start from as level a playing field as possible.
If this feels like too much work, I'd say that's the same as saying being fair is too much work. Though I disagree with it, I'd have more respect for the postion that says "I shouldn't have to help anyone out." To paraphrase "The Big Lebowski," at least that's an ethos.
I hope this doesn't provoke any new rage towards me, since I don't really have the time to respond with regularity. I'm hoping that those who agree with me will simplly nod, and those who disagree will just roll their eyes and move on. All the same, I'll check back in at at some point to make sure that no one's demanding I apologize for something or other. [If someone responds to this post, and feels like I owe them a personal counter-response, please email me. I realize how annoying it can be when someone walks away mid-discussion.]
I think this has been an informative and enriching discussion. Thanks gain to Wayne for initiating it. I hope that those who've been angered by Wayne's essay feel that there is indeed some value to this discussion, even if we can't see eye-to-eye on the matter. Though there's been many strong statements along the way, I hope I have not made enemies with anyone here. I believe that these kind of heated discussions strengthen the community, and educate everyone.
Good luck with the rest of the fight, everyone. I'd love to stick around, but I've got too much to do.
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52 Completed Trades :: 2 Completed Sales :: Trade/Sale References :: Have/Want List ::Sealed Booster Generator
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 3:19 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
If you are a value trader, understandable since the "values" may well have diverged in those two weeks, but if you were the rare for rare trader, why not? If it was a fair trade on day one, why would it not be a fair trade on day 15?
That is entirely my point, Z. In this case, I admit I'm a selective rare-for-rare trader. And I don't see anything wrong with it. Why?
Simple. The expectations of the trading environment are different. This (maxminis) is a very value-driven arena. Trades are based primarily on relative monentary values. That (the midnight release) is primary based on relative rarity value, tempered by needs/wants and preferences. For example, one guy there will sell his soul for Warforged, another loves Giants.
So, while I'm in that environment, I will trade rare for rare. That is where I'd make the Dromite/Iron Golem trade. Out of that context, however, I'm a value trader - which is why two weeks later (all other things being equal) I wouldn't make the same trade in reverse.
I think it was True_Blue that said it early in the post, and I agree totally: black and white rules for this don't work - there is too much gray. This is why I reject Wayne's notion that if you don't toe his line, you're unethical. Its not the "don't take advantage of ignorance to score lopsided trades" aspect I disagree with, as a general rule that is a good thing. It is the hard and fast definition of what constitutes being unethical that I have issue with.
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 3:20 PM |
| My one question is: How much information am I supposed to make sure the other trader has before it is an ethical trade?
Ok.. some people have said that I am to make sure the other trader is aware of Zenako's guide or something like that. My question is why? I mean, do I have to make sure they are aware of Zenako's, Scrye, ebay listinings, True_Blue's guide, some guide that says all Harb rares are $1 and War Drums rares are $50, etc? When does it stop? And why is one better than the other? One guide *isnt* better than another's, no matter how they came across the info. We, on our own, decide what guide to go by.
I personally go by no Guide, I find Zenako's useless to me. So why would you insist I have to point the trader to that guide. If I made that guide with the Harb rares as $1 and WD rares as $50, do ppl have to start pointing ppl to that guide also? They are equal, they each put a price on minis. Zenako's guide is not hailed as *the* guide because obviously lots of ppl do not follow it. So its just as valid as the 100's that could and do appear.
Honestly I can tell you for sure there's more guides that are out there, that I have never seen. Does that mean each trade has been unethical because I wasnt given the information from it? And if you say, no because you have seen Zenako's guide, ebay, etc.. then that is just wrong. Because when I trade with someone else, what if I point them to my Harb rares $1 WD rares $50 guide and some other guide.. there they had just as many sources as I did. What makes one guide better than the other? So that begs the question.. how many guides do I need to go through to make sure this guy is "informed"?
I put my own value on my minis and assume others do the same thing. I cant sit there and try to inform the other trader each time because its not possible to make them the "best" informed. Some of you hail Zenako's guide as the guide ppl must be aware of, but lots of us would disagree with you. I personally have roughly my *own* guide, so that is what I want the other person to be aware of. And I do so, by offering what I'm ready to trade and what for. I assume the other person is doing the same thing.
As I said above, there is *no* definite guide, so everything else is guidelines. And if that is true, and it is, why is Zenako's guide the one I have to make sure the other person is aware of? Why not Scrye? So if I just inform a person of Scrye's guide, is that ethical? It should be just as ethical as only informing the trader of Zenako's. And how many guides can we go through? there can and will be a lot when it comes down to it. Even if there isnt, each person has their own "personal" guide most of the time. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 3:27 PM |
| I wonder, what's the ratio of successful no problems trades here at maxminis versus disputed ones? I thought last time there was a tally it was in the 3%?
I mean, we can't expect a perfect system but if the problem trades are less than 5%, I think everyone has been doing a pretty damn good fu**ing job thus far and their trading partners seem to think the same.
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kyrin
Commander
3171 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 3:44 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by sttmxn
This is frustrating, and unfortunate. Talking about the unimplementability of a concept is so often used to shut down a concept that people don't like, but can't figure out how to debunk. In this case, I don't think the praxis of these ethics is particularly complicated.
And yet you still refuse to speak in anything except vague terms. That's makes me think that it is much more complicated, probably moreso than you're willing to admit to yourself.
As Dave said earlier, Resistance is revealing.
quote:
Again, I don't think this is as difficult as you'd like to dress it up to be. The practice of ethical trading is not an exact science; like any social phenomenon, it has rounded corners, soft edges, and subtleties.
And to stand in judgement over someone who does not appreciate or acknowledge those "rounded corners, soft edges, and subtleties" and stigmatize them as unethical is completely beyond the Pale.
"Make sure that both parties get a fair deal" is a vague statement riddled with room for interpretation. The dozen pages of this thread are testimony to this. Even "make sure that both parties make informed decisions" is woefully imprecise and inadequate. Informed how? By whom? By what means? To what degree? I'm going to say it again, and this time I'm going to use italics:Tell me exactly what I am to do or say. Lay out the rules of the game if you are going to judge me. Accept that responsibility. Is that too darn much to ask?
To help you out, here are some example statements:
"Jim, if you have a statement at the beginning of your trade thread that states that you expect everyone who offers you a trade or responds to one of your offers has looked at the OPG or some other source to be infomed about the value of their minis, you are being an ethical trader."
"Jim, if you include in each one of your trade offers a link to the OPG, you are being an ethical trader."
And but me no buts about "each situation muct be judged on its own merits." If that were true, the Wilder Manifesto would never have seen the light of day.
To hold someone to a standard that you youself cannot (or will not) exactly articulate is unreasonable in the extreme. In fact, I'll go so far as to call it unethical.
Give me actions, not vague ideals, if you presume to judge my behavior, or the behavior of others. Praxis is about actions motivated by ideas, but those actions must be EXACT. Don't say "This is what you must believe to be an ethical trader." Say "This is what you must DO," and BE SPECIFIC AND EXACT.
I dare you.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 3:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
I wonder, what's the ratio of successful no problems trades here at maxminis versus disputed ones? I thought last time there was a tally it was in the 3%?
I mean, we can't expect a perfect system but if the problem trades are less than 5%, I think everyone has been doing a pretty damn good fu**ing job thus far and their trading partners seem to think the same.
True, but there are always a few that ruin the stew. Wayne is stirring the pot maybe, but he speaks from experience. Those of us who have been around a while have seen some, and some very big bad ones. What's funny is how many people agree with what he says but disagree with how he says it. From all of the reponses, pro or con, I see only one person I may be reluctant to trade with. One. And it's not Talistran or Robby, maybe the two most vociferous dissenters.
That said, sometimes stirring the pot is needed. I wish it could be otherwise, but we have grown to the point where the snipers have a good playground from which to work. I guess I'm still not reading it as a personal attack to those who act ethically. It's an essay of personal feelings as applied to the community which is good. If it makes somebody take notice, it is also good. Back in the old days, if you will, Wayne had some disagreements with a very unethical, prominant trader. I was glad to see it.
As for myself, I want to be popular, but I want more to be a good person. I try my best to stand up for the underdog and grow the community from a community aspect, not personal, because my personal value from the community can grow with it. That's just me. The essay leads me to believe that is Jeff. Some of the dissenters lead me to believe that is them too. I know personally a number of board members, I can say from personal experience, (for example)Zaukrie is also a good person (except for that golf thing [)]}
I'm just going to stop here as I'm getting off on a tangent. Cheers. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 4:07 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
I wonder, what's the ratio of successful no problems trades here at maxminis versus disputed ones? I thought last time there was a tally it was in the 3%?
I mean, we can't expect a perfect system but if the problem trades are less than 5%, I think everyone has been doing a pretty damn good fu**ing job thus far and their trading partners seem to think the same.
Disputed trades, in maxminis parlance, are not ones where people feel ripped off afterwards, they're ones where one party doesn't send, etc. They're not the same thing at all and unfair trades would typically not be reflected in the disputed trades thread. | |
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Zenako
Commander
3472 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 4:33 PM |
| From my days compiling the Trade Database I can say that problem trades were only a few percentage of all those conducted (and reported on the trade listings). Some of those probably reflected Shipping snafus as well. So yes, as a community, the significantly majority of all traders on this site are "good traders". It is not a rampant problem, BUT, that being said, it only takes a few to sour things for many, to cast doubt upon the whole community even if we do not deserve it.
Kyrin - You have stated the actions required yourself in your last post, either one is more than enough if you must have some specific action required of you. A great number of trade threads and signatures already state almost exactally those words in them already. Did you just need someone other than yourself to tell you what you need to do to be fair?
I also fail to see how either of those statements you created differ in any meaningful way from the statement that to be fair the playing field should be level, that the other party should be made aware that information is available on the relative worths of miniatures if they are unsure. If someone chooses to ignore that information, then they have conciously made an informed decision to ignore that information. You have done your part to uphold the principle of a level playing field. | |
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sttmxn
Sergeant
461 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 4:37 PM |
| I seriously can't keep responding to this stuff, so if I drop out of the conversation abruptly, I apologize in advance.
Side question: why, kyrin, must you be so nasty? Don't bother answering that if you need to hit caps lock to do so.
quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
And yet you still refuse to speak in anything except vague terms. That's makes me think that it is much more complicated, probably moreso than you're willing to admit to yourself.
As Dave said earlier, Resistance is revealing.
Well, you've created a little faux trap here by implying that it's impossible to have a valid concept that doesn't include hard-and-fast rules of operation. Now, personally, I don't need step-by-step instructions in how to treat people fairly. Lack of a how-to does not equal any kind of invalid philosophy (if you doubt me, maybe you'll trust Kierkegaard or Buber or Nietzche...or maybe not), nor any kind of "resistance" to detail. I actually do think it's valid to deal with situations on a case by case basis, as long as the overarching intentions are the same. So, if you need rules of operation, I'm not going to be your source for that. I don't think there's any catch-all procedure for ensuring the ethicality of all trades; you have to make an effort, and be willing to be called out on that effort and defend it if someone accuses you of trading unethically.
[On a side note, it should be pointed out that intentions are, of course, unpolicable, which is part of the reason that an official ethical doctrine does not/cannot be equated to "legislation.">
However, you seem to be much more creative than me in respect to rules of operation, as we'll discuss below.
quote:
And to stand in judgement over someone who does not appreciate or acknowledge those "rounded corners, soft edges, and subtleties" and stigmatize them as unethical is completely beyond the Pale.
Well, sorry you can't appreciate them. I, for one, appreciate your effort. You seem to be pretty worked up over the matter.
Having said that, it's not those who don't appreciate or acknowledge the subtleties of treating people fairly who are unethical, it's those who reject or circumvent fair trading that are unethical. The discussion or examination (in most cases, calmly) of what might or might not be ethical has nothing to do with those trading ethics that have gone under the lens here.
quote:
"Make sure that both parties get a fair deal" is a vague statement riddled with room for interpretation. The dozen pages of this thread are testimony to this. Even "make sure that both parties make informed decisions" is woefully imprecise and inadequate. Informed how? By whom? By what means? To what degree? I'm going to say it again, and this time I'm going to use italics:Tell me exactly what I am to do or say. Lay out the rules of the game if you are going to judge me. Accept that responsibility. Is that too darn much to ask?
Well, I guess those are pretty vague. I suppose I'm imagining that people have read the rest of the thread--as one would expect that a person quoting a book had read the rest of the book--in which it is made pretty clear what "informed" means: point the person to the OPG to level the playing field. How you go about that is up to you.But clearly, you have more concrete ideas on this than I do:
quote:
To help you out, here are some example statements:
"Jim, if you have a statement at the beginning of your trade thread that states that you expect everyone who offers you a trade or responds to one of your offers has looked at the OPG or some other source to be infomed about the value of their minis, you are being an ethical trader."
"Jim, if you include in each one of your trade offers a link to the OPG, you are being an ethical trader."
I don't know you well enough to call you Jim, kyrin, but those sound like fine suggestions. I guess the gist of making sure the other party is well informed is to choose a way to make sure they get the OPG info. And as I say, these look like pretty fine suggestions.
Now looking at it again, the second one might be improved. If you were really committed to a catch-all solution, as you seem to be, you might explain the context of that link to the OPG--explain that you are committed to fairness, and want everyone to have the same information.
But you know, it doesn't have to be that complicated. An alternative would be to just keep your eyes open for lopsided offers from others, and to not make them yourself. Or if you do make one yourself, explain that you know it's lopsided, and why you think it's appropriate anyway. Sorry of that's too "vague," or implies a situation that should be "judged on its own merits." Maybe a fair trade slide rule is in order?
Tell you what, if you're in doubt, post the trade to Maxminis, and let the community decide. Is that unreasonable? It's at least concrete, eh?
quote:
And but me no buts about "each situation muct be judged on its own merits." If that were true, the Wilder Manifesto would never have seen the light of day.
I don't think Wayne's essay suggests that there are no subtleties or subcontexts in trading ethics. He lays out a broad category of what's ethical; within that category, there are all manner of permutations and situations that call for creative methods of fairness within the specified ethical parameters. The key issue is to commit to the fairness--commit to ensuring that the other person is aware of the market value of the minis at hand. Different people will go about that differently. I know, you really want that catch-all solution. Well, from your suggestions above, it looks like you're on the right path.
quote:
To hold someone to a standard that you youself cannot (or will not) exactly articulate is unreasonable in the extreme. In fact, I'll go so far as to call it unethical.
Your own struggle to digest an ethical position that doesn't read like stereo-assembly instructions does not render the position invald, let alone unethical. Sorry.
quote:
Give me actions, not vague ideals, if you presume to judge my behavior, or the behavior of others. Praxis is about actions motivated by ideas, but those actions must be EXACT. Don't say "This is what you must believe to be an ethical trader." Say "This is what you must DO," and BE SPECIFIC AND EXACT.
I dare you.
ell, hopefully I've made this a little more concrete for you. If not, your own ideas were pretty good ones. Not what I'd choose, but I don't really have any problem with them.
Happy trading. | |
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kyrin
Commander
3171 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 5:25 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
Kyrin - You have stated the actions required yourself in your last post, either one is more than enough if you must have some specific action required of you. A great number of trade threads and signatures already state almost exactally those words in them already. Did you just need someone other than yourself to tell you what you need to do to be fair?
What I need, Zenako, is for people to stop making vague statements about philosophy and start making concrete statements about what people should actually do. If you are going to judge someone's actions, at least have the courtesy of revealing your standards in a concrete way.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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kyrin
Commander
3171 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 5:34 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by sttmxn
I seriously can't keep responding to this stuff, so if I drop out of the conversation abruptly, I apologize in advance.
Side question: why, kyrin, must you be so nasty? Don't bother answering that if you need to hit caps lock to do so.
I get nasty when people get evasive. Answer the questions as I put them to you, and I'll lay off the Caps Lock key.
quote:
Well, you've created a little faux trap here by implying that it's impossible to have a valid concept that doesn't include hard-and-fast rules of operation.
But is it unfair to judge the behavior of others without such hard-and-fast rules. Especially if you're going to hang the label of "unethical" on them. That's why making such value judgements is very dangerous territory.
quote:
But clearly, you have more concrete ideas on this than I do:
Well, apparently I have thought about it in a more concrete manner. I want people to, you know, have a chance to succeed.
quote:
But you know, it doesn't have to be that complicated. An alternative would be to just keep your eyes open for lopsided offers from others, and to not make them yourself. Or if you do make one yourself, explain that you know it's lopsided, and why you think it's appropriate anyway. Sorry of that's too "vague,"
Hopelessly so. What is "lopsided," to start off with?
quote:
Your own struggle to digest an ethical position that doesn't read like stereo-assembly instructions does not render the position invald, let alone unethical. Sorry.
To hold someone to a set of standards of action that you yourself are unable to articulate in a concrete manner is grossly unfair. Sorry.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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Talistran
Warrior
310 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 6:11 PM |
| Gunthar,
I'm glad to not be one of the people you would have a problem trading with based on this thread.
I think. ;)
*********
To the thread on a whole:
When I buy a car from a private citizen, I do NOT ask him if he has looked at Kelly's Blue Book in order to familiarize himself (or herself) with the supposedly market value of the vehicle. I ask what his asking price is, and I make an offer based off of that asking price.
When I buy a firearm from a private citizen, I do not ask him if he or she has looked at one of the various "firearm auction" sites so that I can be sure that I am not dealing with someone who doesn't understand the value of their firearm.
When I go to a garage sale, I do not ask the person if they know that the $20 couch there is actually valued at 60% of MSRP and thus is worth more like $300.
When I go to the grocery store, with the sole purpose of buying those loss-leader items that they advertised for a below-wholesale-cost... it is not my responsibilty to A) buy non-sales-priced-items or B) inform them that they are selling things for below market value.
It is not my responsibility to offer to pay an eBay seller more than the $2.91 that I just won their Balor for... even though I know it is "worth" more than that amount.
And, when I enter into a trade with a human being, who is capable of owning a piece of plastic / paint, and is considered of legal age to trade or sell said piece of plastic / paint, it is not my responsibility to ask them if they are sure that they are ok with the trade, because the value they asked for or the value they agreed to. I assume that by the very fact that they are offering to complete a transaction that they are capable of knowing its value to them. Who am I to push my value system on them?
In all of the above situations, the person or corporation that I am dealing with have a knowledge of what it cost them to acquire the piece that I am interested in.
The following sentence if very, very, very, very, very, very, very important:
And thus they have at least a rudimentary idea of what the value of that piece is to them!
At some point the people who are buying / selling an item have to be assumed to be knowledgeable enough about life to know that there is a value assigned to the object and that they (and they alone) are the ones who hold the responsibility to determine what is an acceptable result of the transaction... for them. I hold the responsibility to determine the same acceptable result for me.
To imply (or state outright as has been said manytimes in this thread by a variety of people) that a person is unethical if they do not inform their bartering partner of the value of any object in a purchase or trade, is simply ludicrous.
Let me repeat for those that might not understand my point. It is ludicrous for a person to think that it is myresponsibility to tell you what my value of an object is... my ethical responsibility is to A) not lie about my end of the trade and to B) uphold all of my agreements.
The only time when the above is not true is when I am dealing with a child or a person of questionable mental faculty (i.e. metally handicapped / retarded); in which case I feel a social responsibility to place my value system upon them. What does this mean? It means that I still understand that our valuation system probably differs greatly, so I am going to make sure that I contact the responsible party in each case and have them approve any trade as well.
Again, please note that I have never taken advantage of someone before... I have been on both sides of a "losing" and "winning" trade in terms of value... and each time I was happy. I have given away as much as 40-50% in value for pieces that I didn't need / want | |
Fun little game...
http://www.mgcluster.net/?ac=vid&vid=11028679ac=vid&vid=11028679 | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 6:17 PM |
| I'd be willing to bet that this article would not have gotten nearly as much responce if it had been worded differently.
for instance if it were called
A guide on how to make fair trades.
bottom line info could even be the same, make sure both parties know the realative values of the minis and reach an equatible(sp?)aggreement.
I think folks are getting hung up on the term "ethics" it tends to be one of those words that evoke a very viseral responce. Also the tone of alot of the posts comming across "holier than thou". Whether that was thier intent or not. | |
Asystole is a stable heart rhythm | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/12/2006 6:32 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
But is it unfair to judge the behavior of others without such hard-and-fast rules. Especially if you're going to hang the label of "unethical" on them. That's why making such value judgements is very dangerous territory.
Ethics work best when people monitor themselves. Someone who once ran for president of the United States (a long time ago) said, I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves. If each person tries to think about fairness in their trading with each trade they make, and governs their own actions by those standards, there won't be any need of having "hard-and-fast" rules for others to judge them by. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 6:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
Ethics work best when people monitor themselves. Someone who once ran for president of the United States (a long time ago) said, I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves.
Hmm. Funny that:
"The above two paragraphs, by the way, are also why sites like Maxminis have an interest in stating very clearly and prominently that unethical trading is frowned upon, and in allowing the denunciation of unethical trading when it occurs."
That certainly doesn't seem like letting "people monitor themselves", now, does it?
quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
If each person tries to think about fairness in their trading with each trade they make, and governs their own actions by those standards, there won't be any need of having "hard-and-fast" rules for others to judge them by.
And funny again. The article is just exactly that - a series of hard-and-fast rules that judge others. And here is your own quote regarding it: "I hope that after a time it will be put in the Trading Q&A section of this website."
Unless you're an utter hypocrite (and despite our differing stance on this, you don't strike me even remotely as such), you can't have it both ways. So, which is it?
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| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6842 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/12/2006 7:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robby
(Snip)
Unless you're an utter hypocrite (and despite our differing stance on this, you don't strike me even remotely as such), you can't have it both ways. So, which is it?
If people did govern themselves, as I was describing, there wouldn't be a need for "hard-and-fast" rules.
To the extent that they don't govern themselves is where things need to be spelled out.
The hope is that people will govern themselves. The reality is some do a better job than others. Where is the line? I don't know. Someone truly motivated to trade fairly wouldn't come close enough to the line to see it. My hope about this discussion is not to win some debate, but that people who make trades down the road will think of the issue of trading fairly and use their own judgment to govern their own trading so that the desire to get everything possible doesn't overshadow fairness. Do I desire to judge a thousand different trades for equity? Not really. Just my own and those where others ask for advice. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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sttmxn
Sergeant
461 Posts
| | 05/12/2006 7:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
I get nasty when people get evasive. Answer the questions as I put them to you, and I'll lay off the Caps Lock key.
What question have I not answered? I understand that you may feel my answers are inadequate, but what have I not answered? Doesn't matter; I have to stop answering questions entirely. I'm out of time.
quote:
But is it unfair to judge the behavior of others without such hard-and-fast rules. Especially if you're going to hang the label of "unethical" on them. That's why making such value judgements is very dangerous territory.
I disagree (surprise!). I actually think the ethical principle here is stronger because it is not bogged down by hard-and-fast implementation rules in which loopholes can be derided and exploited (is that your goal here?). Wayne has presented a single, solid, overarching concept of what constitutes ethical trading: a fair trade is a trade in which both participants are aware of the values in the OPG. How those traders confirm one another's awareness is between them. Your earlier |
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