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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6039 Posts
    
 | | 06/23/2008 7:22 AM |
| Ok, to me D&D has always been the only traditional mythological, medieval, gaming system. Angels were recognizable as what they were in mythology, worgs were the tolkien-esk talking wolf, blah blah blah. I think that the feeling so many of us are trying to describe of the change from 3.5 to 4e is the loss of the ONLY fantasy gaming system that stuck to these established ideals; a semi-realistic, mature representation.
WoW is a game about farming. With its very specific horde vs alliance feel, there's not much wiggle room for a group of adventurers in a war torn world.
Warhammer suffers the same ordeal. There's no wiggle room for adventures without involving an army besetting you.
The other game systems also seem very nested in specific niches as well, but D&D was open.
Gnomes weren't really all that established in fantasy, but they were at least close. Now we have the comic book Dragonborn and Tieflings as character races.
Halfings, imo, have become Kender. They no longer resemble Hobbits at all.
Giants are now elementals... with levels.
Elementals now have goals and ambitions. What is it that an Ice Archon wants in life anyways?
The cosmology has been condensed, which results in years of work on campaigns and modules non-sensical and worthless.
You don't even know what level you are based on what you can face. You'll find different levels of the same monsters as you progress in levels.
You don't earn your "power" you just start off powerful. Large White Dragons at first level... wtf?
It's hard to describe this feeling of why 4e doesn't feel like D&D... but, I'm trying. Maybe together we can figure it out... | |
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kyrin
Commander
3157 Posts
| | 06/23/2008 8:02 AM |
| There's no Guisarme. It's not D&D without a Guisarme.
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Username
Warlord
5671 Posts
| | 06/23/2008 8:08 AM |
| Posted By greyhaze on 06/23/2008 7:22 AM
Large White Dragons at first level... wtf? It's hard to describe this feeling of why 4e doesn't feel like D&D... but, I'm trying. Maybe together we can figure it out...
If you are refering to the WWGD battle, I think that was more of a marketing ploy to get a Dragon in the Dungeon.
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Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
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Username
Warlord
5671 Posts
| | 06/23/2008 8:09 AM |
| | And another thing, I think it's ok to be a bit powerful at 1st level. I was thinking about this the other day. If all characters were truly 1st lvl, they would be about 7 yrs old. I can't imagine a 30something being a 1st level wizard. Just doesn't make sense to me. | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7507 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 06/23/2008 8:11 AM |
| You know, I'm becoming more comfortable with the idea of staying 3.5.
With the closure of the delegate program, I need to trim back my gamingbudget. And while I like 4E, I don't like it enough to justify all that money.
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| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6039 Posts
| | 06/23/2008 8:28 AM |
| Posted By Username on 06/23/2008 8:08 AM If you are refering to the WWGD battle, I think that was more of a marketing ploy to get a Dragon in the Dungeon. 
Perhaps, but it is also in the kobold adventure in the DMG. So, it seems rather common place.
Regarding a 7yr old 1st level wizard. I guess it depends on perspective, it's rather "harry potter" being a powerful wiz-kid with ease and taking classes like we would for school, or "class dipping" to gain instant arcane/divine power vs. a more traditional ideal of taking years to master the simplest of spells.
I blame certain multi-classing for a lot of being able to dip in to a wizard (or even cleric) class and becoming powerful wizards with no in game training or time or devotion set aside to learn to access arcane or divine power. | |
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Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
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Shottglazz
Underboss
1040 Posts
Quinte West, Ontario, Canada
| | 06/23/2008 8:55 AM |
| To an extent Greyhaze, I agree with you. I never found D&D the mature, realistic system - just the most fun and the one I grew up with. For mature, realistic gaming my groups have always used Rolemaster...
The feel of D&D is unique. Most FRPG's try to emulate it on one level or another, but always fall short... | |
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Zenako
Commander
3468 Posts
| | 06/23/2008 10:06 AM |
| | Ah Rolemaster... C&S 2.0 essentially... Had a very interesting combo of D&D and C&S rules in the same campaign that I ran a long time ago. C&S combat along with D&D spells adjusted to a Blows table. Actually really liked the way it moved combat with different weapon types into a very intuitive regime. Big 2H Sword hits very hard, but swings slowly, while the Rapier could attack a lot more often for much smaller damage. Good times...... | |
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Ghendar
Warlord
11456 Posts
In ur house, stealin' yur minis
| | 06/23/2008 11:26 AM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 06/23/2008 8:11 AM
You know, I'm becoming more comfortable with the idea of staying 3.5.
With the closure of the delegate program, I need to trim back my gamingbudget. And while I like 4E, I don't like it enough to justify all that money.
Well, I misread you. I had you pegged as a 4e all the way guy. | |
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| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7507 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 06/23/2008 12:15 PM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 06/23/2008 11:26 AM Posted By Teflon Jeff on 06/23/2008 8:11 AM
You know, I'm becoming more comfortable with the idea of staying 3.5.
With the closure of the delegate program, I need to trim back my gamingbudget. And while I like 4E, I don't like it enough to justify all that money.
Well, I misread you. I had you pegged as a 4e all the way guy.
I still like it, and I prefer it to 3.5, but a few factors affect actual purchases.
1. I hardly ever get to RP. It's been 6 months since I had a good session. It's not likely to change soon.
2. We really like SWSE. They have a slower release schedule, which is easier on the budget.
3. The delegate program was cancelled, tightening my gaming budget a bit.
4. Full-time student has different budget priorities.
5. Slower economy means more svaings, less spending.
6. Relocation of Job means more money needed for gas.
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3490 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 06/23/2008 1:03 PM |
| I think I can participate in this discussion, even though I don't know much about 4E.
What do I think gives a game a "D&D feeling"?
- Wizards, Warriors and monsters (there'd better be magic, there'd better be fighting, and there'd better be weird things to fight against)
- A good (but not overwhelming) number of options for players to choose from in order to make their hero unique - from a rules perspective, not just RP
- An imaginary (self-consistent) world where players can immerse themselves and feel "special" but still in awe of powers much greater than themselves.
- A story that revolves around an eternal battle between "good" and "evil" and "law" and "chaos" where those are almost tangible things, not just ideals.
- Treasure... plus cool stuff a hero can (reasonably) acquire to increase his "awesomeness"
- Dragons that rock
- Dungeons that exist purely to provide heroes with monsters to kill and treasure to loot (specific exception to the "self-consistent world" idea) 
That probably mostly sums it up. So, given all that, does 4E still have the "D&D feel"? From what I can tell, yes, it does. But then, plenty of other games (that I don't play) *also* have that same feel.
If I ever get back to playing D&D, I hope I can find a good cadre of folks who want to stick with D&D 3.5, not because I think 4E won't feel like D&D anymore, but because I don't feel like spending a bunch of money on a new set of D&D rulebooks and time learning a new game. I have a lot of time and money invested in 3.5 - it's a game I like to play, and I don't think it's obsolete. What's more, third edition was reasonably "backwards compatible" with AD&D, so I don't feel like my old AD&D modules (and even some basic D&D stuff) are completely obsolete, either. From what I can tell, porting old material into the 4E rules will be a bit more of a challenge. | |
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2299 Posts
Toronto
| | 06/23/2008 1:14 PM |
|
Perhaps, but it is also in the kobold adventure in the DMG. So, it seems rather common place.
Regarding a 7yr old 1st level wizard. I guess it depends on perspective, it's rather "harry potter" being a powerful wiz-kid with ease and taking classes like we would for school, or "class dipping" to gain instant arcane/divine power vs. a more traditional ideal of taking years to master the simplest of spells.
I blame certain multi-classing for a lot of being able to dip in to a wizard (or even cleric) class and becoming powerful wizards with no in game training or time or devotion set aside to learn to access arcane or divine power.
This is why I always house-ruled that characters that didn't start as a spell-caster (Wizard, etc) couldn't take it later, since I was pretty sure none of the other characters wanted to wait for the year(s) of training that would be required just to reach 1st level.
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"I was sittin' here eatin' my muffin, drinkin' my coffee, replayin' the incident in my head, when I had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity." - Jules Winnfield
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2299 Posts
Toronto
| | 06/23/2008 1:27 PM |
| Posted By Faragdar the Wise on 06/23/2008 1:03 PM
I think I can participate in this discussion, even though I don't know much about 4E.
From what I can tell, porting old material into the 4E rules will be a bit more of a challenge.
From what I've read of the books, that statement looks to be an understatement.
D&D was about being the new hero exploring a vast land, until one day you were nearly a god.
D&D was about choice, 2nd Ed. did a pretty good job of this, 3.x was nearly great, except for when game breakers decided of twist every loop whole in their favour. But those kind of gamer's I usually didn't have to contend with.
D&D was about POWERFUL wizards, protectors of the realms or advesaries to be conquerored.
Sure their were still problems with D&D, but mostly in the higher levels and especially with 'Epic' levels.
But the new system, while I'm sure will still be fun (and way better then still many other systems), just doesn't seem to feel like D&D.
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"I was sittin' here eatin' my muffin, drinkin' my coffee, replayin' the incident in my head, when I had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity." - Jules Winnfield
Sales/Trades Bad (1): Ironfist Boulderbender
Trades/Sales completed (8.): Danthl, Dafrca, Garyaxe, qillan_dvra, realmaster, Vandal_Savage, cavedweller, unearthed arcana.
Champion of Gem Dragons, VINDICATED Squire of Duergar Commander, Knight of the Astral Stalker.
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zenthrus
Commander
4909 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 06/23/2008 2:29 PM |
| I really don't see much difference in "feel" between 3.x and 4.0. It's the same stories, drama, tension, climaxes, and sagas told with basically the same cast of characters, filling the same roles (albeit more distinctly filling those roles), and in a similar context.
Granted, D&D has always felt like an imperfect means of realizing the type of fantasy worlds created by Jerome Bixby, J.R.R. Tolkein, C.S. Lewis, and Terry Brooks. There were always bits of fluff which didn't quite fit, pantheons which weren't quite right, and questionable choices when it came to player races and monsters. The important bit, really, was the story.
4th edition largely gets you back to the story. Combat is streamlined and cinematic. Skills are streamlined. Everything just flows faster so you can get back to the storytelling with less breaks.
4th edition is almost like reading an L.E. Modesitt novel in the Recluse series and simply skipping past the 50-page detailed descriptions of barrel-making or blacksmithing.
Granted, I've never felt terribly constrained by the fluff in the monster manual/PHB/etc. Fluff is always mutable since the really important thing is having fun, sitting around a table, bs-ing with your friends, and telling an epic tale. I for one, don't see that anything has changed about that feel. The only major change is the reduction in time it takes to resolve combat situations. | |
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Thenameless
Warlord
9935 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 06/23/2008 7:48 PM |
| | Saving throws. | |
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