English Ghost (OP Program Manager)
Talafenix
Sneak
128 Posts
    
 | | 05/18/2006 3:59 PM |
| As the title says and indicated area for questions to keep the Basics and beyond thread clean.
Ian | |
Ian Richards
RPGA Program Manager
Program Manager for D&D, Star Wars and Axis & Allies Miniatures.
Organized Play
Wizards of the Coast | |
|
Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
| | 05/18/2006 4:09 PM |
| Please forgive if stated, only had time for a quick scan...
If a judge makes an incorrect ruling...is it wrong for me to pull out my notebook and show the judge on paper where Guy ruled otherwise, etc.? | | | |
|
zenthrus
Commander
4905 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 05/18/2006 4:12 PM |
| In line with Sharn Inquisitor's question...what set of rules take precedence? The official, printed rulebook? Guy's clarifications?
If Guy's clarifications take precedence over the rulebook, how can anyone be assured that all players have access to those rulings? | |
Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
Have/Want List
Trade References | |
|
Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 05/18/2006 4:19 PM |
| | You mention a head judge several times. I've never been to a DDM tournament with more than one judge. Should that change? If so, how, as it is almost impossible to find one player that wants to give up their chance to play, let alone three? | |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
Champion of Juiblex | |
|
XenoZephyr
Underboss
1083 Posts
| | 05/18/2006 4:23 PM |
| One time I was judging and a player was unclear about a rule and made a bad move based on that. He asked me what the rule was and I explained it to him. He wanted to see it in the rulebook though and I really wasn't sure where the rule was stated clearly, I knew it was either the Rulebook or the FAQ. So, I had to spend quite a bit of time looking up the rule for them to prove it was the rule before he would continue.
2 part question
A) Do judges have to "prove" they are correct if asked by a player? (I personally think so and was not and am not offended if a player asks me to show them the rule.)
B) If the game stops for 5 or 10 minutes for the judge to explain/show the rules to a player, is it legal for the judge to extend their particular match for the 5 or 10 minutes that were lost? (I haven't done this and haven't ever seen it done, so I'm guessing it's not legal)
Thanks for starting this thread Ian! | |
| |
|
mordantos
Underboss
1210 Posts
| | 05/18/2006 4:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Talafenix
Tournament Organizer:
You have no roll within the tournament itself
I think you mean role, unless there has been a rash of Tournament Organizers rolling dice in the middle of a game... [)]
quote:
Originally posted by Talafenix
Head Judge:
Always back your judge’s decision unless extraordinary situations dictate otherwise.
quote:
Originally posted by Talafenix
Q. If I disagree with a judge ruling can I complain?
Yes. The next line would be to ask for the senior judge or ‘Head’ Judge. You then have a second opportunity to discuss the issue. Don’t expect it to change. Unless it is extraordinary circumstance nothing will be overturned.
While supporting your people is a good thing, I worry about "Always" and "extraordinary circumstance". What if the first ruling was just plain wrong? Even if the Head Judge can instantly see it was an incorrect ruling, he should rubberstamp the answer? Then what is the point of a Head Judge at all? | | | |
|
lalato
Underboss
1546 Posts
Urbana, IL
| | 05/18/2006 5:01 PM |
| I have a question regarding recreating the game state.
If a player has a figure with a passive special ability (For example: Death Slaad's with Regeneration, Devis with Counter Song, Shuluth's Commander Effect) and he forgets to use that special ability, is it OK to call a judge to see if the game state can be recreated to the point where the player forgot, assuming, of course, that a new initiative has not been rolled?
--sam | |
I'm in Urbana, IL | |
|
trollbill
Warrior
176 Posts
| | 05/18/2006 5:23 PM |
| | If you are not a judge, but are a knowledgable bystander such as another player who has already finished their game, and you see a player make a rules violation, should you point it out? Are you even allowed to, or is that considered interfering with the game? Should you report it to a judge? | |
| |
|
XenoZephyr
Underboss
1083 Posts
| | 05/18/2006 5:30 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by trollbill
If you are not a judge, but are a knowledgable bystander such as another player who has already finished their game, and you see a player make a rules violation, should you point it out? Are you even allowed to, or is that considered interfering with the game? Should you report it to a judge?
That's right in the DCI floor rules. Bystanders are not allowed to comment on the game. If they do, I believe they are suppose to be immediately eliminated from the tournament (if they are playing) and the person who they helped could be given a loss.
As a person who judges, I find it really hard when I see someone doing a rule incorrectly, but unless I'm a judge I'm not allowed to say anything. At a recent game two players were wondering about something and I was sitting next to them. I heard them say something to the fact that they wanted to ask a judge or someone about a rule. I told them that I usually judge and could probaby answer them. They told me the rule and I answered it to the best of my ability. I think it was clear that I was just trying to act as an encyclopedia of sorts but I'm not even sure I should have said anything really. | |
| |
|
D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 05/18/2006 5:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sharn Inquisitor
If a judge makes an incorrect ruling...is it wrong for me to pull out my notebook and show the judge on paper where Guy ruled otherwise, etc.?
Sure. (Heck, that's even happened to me while I was judging.) If there was contention over the rule in the first place, the judge should have already asked the two players for their viewpoints; that would be the best time for you to pull out the notebook. | |
-
Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
|
D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 05/18/2006 5:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by zenthrus
In line with Sharn Inquisitor's question...what set of rules take precedence? The official, printed rulebook? Guy's clarifications?
It's not that the clarifications trump the rulebook, or vice-versa. The most recent clarification/correction takes precedence over earlier ones.
As usual, if it's not clear, the head judge is the final authority. (See section 16 of the UTR.) | |
-
Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
|
D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 05/18/2006 6:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zaukrie
You mention a head judge several times. I've never been to a DDM tournament with more than one judge. Should that change?
This is covered by section 16 of the DCI Universal Tournament rules. | |
-
Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
|
D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 05/18/2006 6:02 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XenoZephyr
A) Do judges have to "prove" they are correct if asked by a player?
No. No part of the UTR requires that. It's a nice thing to do, but it's not required.
quote:
B) If the game stops for 5 or 10 minutes for the judge to explain/show the rules to a player, is it legal for the judge to extend their particular match for the 5 or 10 minutes that were lost? (I haven't done this and haven't ever seen it done, so I'm guessing it's not legal)
This is covered by section 18 of the UTR.
All organizers & judges should read the UTR. Players ought to as well. | |
-
Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
|
D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 05/18/2006 6:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by trollbill
If you are not a judge, but are a knowledgable bystander such as another player who has already finished their game, and you see a player make a rules violation, should you point it out? Are you even allowed to, or is that considered interfering with the game? Should you report it to a judge?
This is covered by section 14 of the UTR. | |
-
Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
|
D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 05/18/2006 6:21 PM |
| From the Judging 101 - Basics and beyond thread:
quote:
Originally posted by Talafenix
Q. You talk about game state and accurately recreating it. How far can a Judge back up?
As a rule Judges won’t back a game up beyond a set of activations. At most a game will be backed up one full round. Beyond that it’s too inaccurate. If you have a question ask it immediately do not allow the game to evolve beyond that state otherwise the Judge is powerless to apply anything satisfactorily. There is nothing worse being told you are correct but the game cannot be turned back due to possible inaccuracies in game state.
Penalty: None.
Judges: Listen to both sides. Explain the policy if you are unable to accurately reconstruct the situation. Note: Players maybe able to remember but the rule of thumb is, once the next initiative dice are thrown the game won’t be turned back. That said an early round with full 8 activations per side may also not be able to be reconstructed accurately and therefore you may rule that it also cannot be backed up. Usually no penalty is necessary but undue arguing of pressure may result in a Caution or Warning for Misconduct or Unsporting Behavior.
I typically handle play mistakes as Procedural Errors. (Given the examples in the Penalty Guidelines, that's one of the main purposes of the Procedural Error penalty set.) I've backed up when possible, but I've *always* handed out penalties when i've had to back up play ... even if they're just cautions. The minimum penalty for a Procedural Error appears to be a caution.
If there's a game mistake that doesn't require backing up (such as simply forgetting to apply Burnout damage on a Frenzied Berserker that had plenty of hp left), I also hand out Procedural Errors.
If there's a massively game affecting mistake that can't be backed up (perhaps because it occurred so early in the match), I've always been prepared to penalize the offending player with a game loss. After all, that appears to be the point of a Procedural Error – Severe penalty. I've never actually had this happen yet.
Is this the right policy? | |
-
Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
|
D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 05/18/2006 6:26 PM |
| According to the penalty guidelines, penalties upgrade in the following order: caution -> warning -> game loss -> match loss -> disqualification.
In DDM, games *are* matches, so handing out a game loss is fundamentally the same thing as handing out a match loss. (I imagine many of the other DCI sanctionable games are also this way.)
If a player has already received a game loss for a particular infraction, and would receive a second game loss for a second infraction, should that second penalty upgrade to a match loss or directly to a disqualification?
If the latter, the penalty guidelines and/or the DDM Floor Rules ought to be adjusted to contain that detail. | |
-
Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
|
D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 05/18/2006 6:36 PM |
| From the other thread...
quote:
Originally posted by Talafenix
Q. While supporting your people is a good thing, I worry about "Always" and "extraordinary circumstance". What if the first ruling was just plain wrong? Even if the Head Judge can instantly see it was an incorrect ruling, he should rubberstamp the answer? Then what is the point of a Head Judge at all?
Head Judges should always support their Judge's decision. Most games will continue past a recreation state. Issues that fall within extraordinary are when it changes the state of play that has been earlier ruled OR affects things like time. Example: no extension was applied after a 10 minute delay answering rules. That is unfair as the game should have a 1-hour limit. A Head Judge would over turn a decision to not extend while also adding in time for the extra stoppage.
I don't fully understand this. I don't understand where you are drawing the line with a Head Judge correcting a Judge's rule mistake.
I get the point about the Head Judge always supporting the other Judge's descision, but in the case of an obvious rule mistake on the Judge's part, how could a Head Judge *not* overrule the mistaken Judge?
Example: Player A wants to move his creature out of a threatened square without provoking an AoO so the creature can make an attack somewhere else which will probably win the game. Player A says the creature has cover so movement without an AoO is legal. Player B disagrees and calls over the judge. The judge rules in Player B's favor, but Player A knows without a doubt that the judge is incorrect. (Player A is correct; the judge is incorrect.) Player A appeals to the Head Judge.
The Head Judge knows Player A is correct and knows the lesser Judge made an incorrect ruling. Given that the lesser Judge effectively took away Player A's chance to legally win the game, what exactly should the Head Judge do in this case?
This sort of thing has happened to me before when I have been Head Judge. I have overruled the lesser Judge in these cases. | |
-
Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
|
IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/18/2006 6:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XenoZephyr
quote:
Originally posted by trollbill
If you are not a judge, but are a knowledgable bystander such as another player who has already finished their game, and you see a player make a rules violation, should you point it out? Are you even allowed to, or is that considered interfering with the game? Should you report it to a judge?
That's right in the DCI floor rules. Bystanders are not allowed to comment on the game. If they do, I believe they are suppose to be immediately eliminated from the tournament (if they are playing) and the person who they helped could be given a loss.
As a person who judges, I find it really hard when I see someone doing a rule incorrectly, but unless I'm a judge I'm not allowed to say anything. At a recent game two players were wondering about something and I was sitting next to them. I heard them say something to the fact that they wanted to ask a judge or someone about a rule. I told them that I usually judge and could probaby answer them. They told me the rule and I answered it to the best of my ability. I think it was clear that I was just trying to act as an encyclopedia of sorts but I'm not even sure I should have said anything really.
I've done this before and realized too late that 1) I wasn't supposed to be doing it and 2) doing it made me an ass.
It can be really hard for me to keep my big opinionated mouth shut, but I'm getting better at it. (Only in that particular context though...) | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
|
English Ghost (OP Program Manager)
Talafenix
Sneak
128 Posts
| | 05/18/2006 6:51 PM |
| I typically handle play mistakes as Procedural Errors. (Given the examples in the Penalty Guidelines, that's one of the main purposes of the Procedural Error penalty set.) I've backed up when possible, but I've *always* handed out penalties when i've had to back up play ... even if they're just cautions. The minimum penalty for a Procedural Error appears to be a caution.
If there's a game mistake that doesn't require backing up (such as simply forgetting to apply Burnout damage on a Frenzied Berserker that had plenty of hp left), I also hand out Procedural Errors.
If there's a massively game affecting mistake that can't be backed up (perhaps because it occurred so early in the match), I've always been prepared to penalize the offending player with a game loss. After all, that appears to be the point of a Procedural Error – Severe penalty. I've never actually had this happen yet.
Is this the right policy?
[/quote]
no Guy you're within the bounds though I use the term 'rule of thumb'. Application of the rules are difficult to apply as often you have to drop to the phylosophy. Example: Applying Procedural Error to all occurances isn't the standard rule to apply to every situation. There is a lot that can fall outside of that. Issues can and do fall into Cheating. Then it's immediate Warning moving upwards rapidly. Cheating is something we shouldn't accept at any level though intent (Cheating) is hard to prove. Remember the Judge doesn't need conclusive proof. Just the suspision is enough though it would be harsh.
As to ruling and backing up. This is a guide to what can reasonably expected to be backed up. Like I said if two players have two minis each and it's easy then back it up, correct the error, issue procedial cautions/warnings and move on (assuming no suspision of cheating). After that I'll not wind back the clock. It starts to get too messy as someone winning the initiative will get upset they have to reroll or the person not winning can't now reroll etc etc. It starts the then compound the situation for both players and then everyone is having no fun.
It's much easier to have a hard guideline that is easy to enforce and players will quickly police themselves asking clarifications before the game state develops on. | |
Ian Richards
RPGA Program Manager
Program Manager for D&D, Star Wars and Axis & Allies Miniatures.
Organized Play
Wizards of the Coast | |
|
D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 05/18/2006 7:21 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Talafenix
Q. If you are not a judge, but are a knowledgable bystander such as another player who has already finished their game, and you see a player make a rules violation, should you point it out? Are you even allowed to, or is that considered interfering with the game? Should you report it to a judge?
That could be seen as coaching (He could be your friend who you are having stand there and watch for errors while you consider the next moves) and therefore would be asked to keep quiet. Severity or complaint from a player may well end up with you receiving a minimum Warning or worse Event Ejection.
I think this answer should be expanded to include the details from the second paragraph of section 14 of the UTR, because it contains the (very important) direct answer to the last question: "Spectators and members of the press who believe they have observed rules violations should inform a judge, but must not interfere with the match." | |
-
Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
|
Bert the Troll
Commander
3898 Posts
Adelaide
| | 05/18/2006 9:06 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
quote:
Originally posted by Sharn Inquisitor
If a judge makes an incorrect ruling...is it wrong for me to pull out my notebook and show the judge on paper where Guy ruled otherwise, etc.?
Sure. (Heck, that's even happened to me while I was judging.) If there was contention over the rule in the first place, the judge should have already asked the two players for their viewpoints; that would be the best time for you to pull out the notebook.
Someone showed you what the Guy ruling was [?] ??? | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
|
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10353 Posts
United States
| | 05/18/2006 10:11 PM |
| Time to start committing the UTR to memory...
Thanks guys, I definitely have a place to start. This thread is going to be a really great tool.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
|
kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 05/19/2006 1:36 AM |
| As others, I am unclear as to the purpose of a "Head Judge" if he is expected to just rubberstamp answers 99% of the time. I would like a firther clarification on this if possible.
What recourse do players have if they encounter poor judging (incorrect rulings, favoritism, lack of enforcement, etc)?
Obviously people make mistakes with rule questions, the situation I refer to is a pattern of such behavior or obvious problems with their actions. | |
| |
|
D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 05/19/2006 2:07 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Bert the Troll
Someone showed you what the Guy ruling was [?] ???
Yes indeed. The majority of my fifteen thousand (!) posts on the WotC boards have been answers to DDM rules questions. I've written over 40 pages of Q&As, errata, clarifications, and rules explanations. I certainly don't have all of that info committed to memory; I make mistakes just like everybody else does. | |
-
Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
|
PatEllis15
Commander
4462 Posts
| | 05/19/2006 10:36 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zaukrie
You mention a head judge several times. I've never been to a DDM tournament with more than one judge. Should that change? If so, how, as it is almost impossible to find one player that wants to give up their chance to play, let alone three?
Zaukrie: 95% of tournaments will NOT, nor do they need a head judge. A Head judge is typically present at large events, where likely there is more than one event going on at a time. i.e. Gen Con, Winter Fantasy etc. In those cases, there may be 2+ judges, one of whom is the head judge. One judge may be working with the League players, while another works on the Sealed event...
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
|
D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 05/19/2006 10:46 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15
Zaukrie: 95% of tournaments will NOT, nor do they need a head judge.
That's not true. I understand your overall point (most events won't have multiple judges), but it's conveyed with incorrect information. A head judge is absolutely mandatory for a DCI sanctioned event. See section 16 of the UTR. If an event only has a single judge, that judge *is* the head judge. | |
-
Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
|
PatEllis15
Commander
4462 Posts
| | 05/19/2006 11:23 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15
Zaukrie: 95% of tournaments will NOT, nor do they need a head judge.
That's not true. I understand your overall point (most events won't have multiple judges), but it's conveyed with incorrect information. A head judge is absolutely mandatory for a DCI sanctioned event. See section 16 of the UTR. If an event only has a single judge, that judge *is* the head judge.
Heh... I stand corrected. Damn semantics... [)]
I'll point out in my defence, that I didn't capitalize "head judge" implying under legal definition that I wasn't referencing the aformentioned official definition of "Head Judge" as spelled out in UTR Section 16. Where head judge would be defined by the vernacular to implicitly imply that there was more than 1 judge... [:D][:D]
Thanks Guy!
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
|
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10353 Posts
United States
| | 05/19/2006 11:37 AM |
| [Can of Worms]
Suppose a player brings a digital camera to a game and takes pictures at various intervals (say, before initiative is rolled, each round). Could the information stored in that camera then be used by a judge if the game needed to be returned to a previous game state?
[/Can of Worms]
Note: Really, I'm not trying to get cameras banned from minis halls. It strikes me that some players might want to do just this.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
|
D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 05/19/2006 12:20 PM |
| I'm pretty strongly against the idea of using a digital photo to help restore game state.
A digital photo probably doesn't convey all details of game state. Does it tell you how many spells your Couatl has cast, how many hit points your Hill Giant Barbarian has left, or which creatures are stunned or routing? Probably not.
Is it possible that a digital photo gives a player a false sense correctness? Probably. For various reasons, a player might not have been able to take a photo at exactly the pre-initiative point. For various reasons, the player might have forgotten this detail.
Additionally, there's the issue of viewing such a photo at a high enough of a resolution to make it readable for the judge. Is it worth spending 5 minutes getting out a computer and downloading the photo so the judge can try to interpret the photo, with possibly no benefit gained from the photo? Probably not.
There's also the temptation for a player to want to use a digital photo as a way to escape a more severe penalty. That's not a good idea. If a player made a severe procedural error that is not easily possible to undo (w/o a digital photo), that player should receive a match loss. The fact that a player happens to have a digital photo available should not allow the player to escape that penalty. | |
-
Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
|
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10353 Posts
United States
| |
Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 05/19/2006 8:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
Time to start committing the UTR to memory...
You havent already?
Its quite a binder of information a judge should have at their fingers
Rulebook (printed from the internet for most current version control)
FAQ
Eratta
Guy's Clarifications
Guy's FAQ / Guide to Melee Reach vs Cover (cause it comes up at every tourney Ive been too)
------ Guy: could you modify the images to be extremely clear in a black and white print out? Its sometimes rough to show people what you mean without the colored arrows
Guy's Line of Sight: Not Corner to Corner - its 2 pages and had I remembered it last nite, I could have gotten off my first turn fireball. :(
Now.. be prepared for the possibility of having to defend Guy's rulings as "Gospel". Many people not involved in the online community dont know or care who Guy is and why his version of the rules is legal. This is a serious point of contention in some instances.
And recently I was called upon to give a ruling in our local game. I had never really looked at the piece in question (Vampire Aristocrat) nor its spell Expeditious Retreat. I wasnt sure so I took 1 minute to look in my handy book of printouts and couldnt find the rule I was sure had to be there somewhere. Im seriously thinking that the only way to really find something quickly will be to have all the documents on a handy computer (Laptop, PDA, TO's machine for DCI) and perform full text searches of the files.. but that is a bit cumbersome. Maybe. Perhaps having it available for download in the standard windows Help file format (with the index and search that will show you snips of each time the query exists). Its a thought. We cant all have Guy around to rule for us.
Now I will reiterate my piece of advice for judges - I asked for a ruling from Guy at SoCal about a rule I was pretty sure about.. but wanted to make sure. The very first thing he asked for was the Card to re-read the wording. That was very telling to me. Dont just rattle off your memorized answer. Double check yourself when making a ruling. it takes only seconds to read the card and make sure that you are remembering things correctly. | |
Minis... Serious Business
Completed Trades (18 ) | Pending Trades (0)
Ebay seller to Avoid –Fantasy_Quest_Dist
| |
|
PatEllis15
Commander
4462 Posts
| | 05/19/2006 8:35 PM |
| quote:
Now.. be prepared for the possibility of having to defend Guy's rulings as "Gospel". Many people not involved in the online community dont know or care who Guy is and why his version of the rules is legal. This is a serious point of contention in some instances.
This is my biggest bone of contention. Guy's rulings are official. But his list isn't linked to the WotC site, nor are they provided to the TO or Head Judge for major events. I REALLY wish that WotC would address this issue. It was asked at the DDM seminar at Gen Con last year, and they implied that it would be.... but it hasn't!
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
|
Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 05/19/2006 9:39 PM |
| | This has been an issue at other locations, I hope something is done about this (in reference to Guy's rulings). | |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
Champion of Juiblex | |
|
English Ghost (OP Program Manager)
Talafenix
Sneak
128 Posts
| | 05/20/2006 6:49 AM |
| >>>Now I will reiterate my piece of advice for judges - I asked for a ruling from Guy at SoCal about a rule I was pretty sure about.. but wanted to make sure. The very first thing he asked for was the Card to re-read the wording. That was very telling to me. Dont just rattle off your memorized answer. Double check yourself when making a ruling. it takes only seconds to read the card and make sure that you are remembering things correctly.<<<
Better yet a LOT of answers are in clear text on the cards or in the rules. Players then not only answered the answers for themselves by looking it up with the judge but now know where to find it so they can also educate others when it comes up again. Looking things up is a very very useful way to answer any question and shows no weakness in your rules knowledge.
| |
Ian Richards
RPGA Program Manager
Program Manager for D&D, Star Wars and Axis & Allies Miniatures.
Organized Play
Wizards of the Coast | |
|
KuH
Warrior
293 Posts
| | 05/20/2006 12:57 PM |
| I would love to see one online WOTC-approved PDF judging manual, to complement and clarify the rule-book. This could be updated each month and downloaded by any/all judges.
It's much easier to judge accurately when you have one acknowledged reference source to use.
I would guess Guy would happily write and update this manual, and that WOTC might find it a reasonable use of resources to hire him.
Has that been considered as a solution? | |
| |
|
Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 05/22/2006 5:33 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Talafenix
>>>Now I will reiterate my piece of advice for judges - I asked for a ruling from Guy at SoCal about a rule I was pretty sure about.. but wanted to make sure. The very first thing he asked for was the Card to re-read the wording. That was very telling to me. Dont just rattle off your memorized answer. Double check yourself when making a ruling. it takes only seconds to read the card and make sure that you are remembering things correctly.<<<
Better yet a LOT of answers are in clear text on the cards or in the rules. Players then not only answered the answers for themselves by looking it up with the judge but now know where to find it so they can also educate others when it comes up again. Looking things up is a very very useful way to answer any question and shows no weakness in your rules knowledge.
Not to poke too hard, but I notice you failed to answer the concerns about "Guys Clarifications".. without something official, it will be up to the judges interpretation alone and that could be devestating to various bands / combos. Plus, it does little good to argue with a judge about something during the match.. | |
Minis... Serious Business
Completed Trades (18 ) | Pending Trades (0)
Ebay seller to Avoid –Fantasy_Quest_Dist
| |
|
English Ghost (OP Program Manager)
Talafenix
Sneak
128 Posts
| | 05/23/2006 2:35 AM |
| | I'm uncertain what you want me to say. Guy's posts are linked off the main Wizards of the Coast site. That should say it all [:)] | |
Ian Richards
RPGA Program Manager
Program Manager for D&D, Star Wars and Axis & Allies Miniatures.
Organized Play
Wizards of the Coast | |
|
Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 05/23/2006 1:32 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Talafenix
I'm uncertain what you want me to say. Guy's posts are linked off the main Wizards of the Coast site. That should say it all [:)]
from the DDM Floor Rules
quote:
Stat Card Interpretations
Stat cards are interpreted using the official DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Miniatures Game Rules and Official Errata. Errata can be found at www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mini/tournaments
| |
Minis... Serious Business
Completed Trades (18 ) | Pending Trades (0)
Ebay seller to Avoid –Fantasy_Quest_Dist
| |
|
Lance H
Sergeant
403 Posts
| | 05/25/2006 12:54 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Talafenix
I'm uncertain what you want me to say. Guy's posts are linked off the main Wizards of the Coast site. That should say it all [:)]
I've wondered about this myself. I mean, where does it say in the DCI floor rules that a player must consider guy's rules official? If I never used the internet (gasp!) I wouldn't even know about Guy and his clarifications, as these have not been mentioned in the Miniatures rulebook, nor can I find the subject addressed in the floor rules (downloaded and given to me by a friend, of course, since in this example I don't get online).
As someone who wants to become a better judge, how can I respond to a player who says Guy's rulings don't count because there is no official mention of them in the printed material? Such a player seems to be right.
I know I'm playing the devil's advocate here, but I'm a big proponent of compiling these rulings into a single source, and making them readily available on the official WotC site (not linked somewhere else) as a .PDF, as has been previously mentioned. The current system seems inefficient, at best. | |
Lance Hawvermale -- Writer/Editor, Necromancer Games
Completed Trades: 67
My Vision Quest: www.lancehawvermale.com | |
|
Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 05/26/2006 9:36 AM |
| quote:
how can I respond to a player who says Guy's rulings don't count because there is no official mention of them in the printed material?
"Sir, I understand that you arent aware of the existance of these clarifications. However, Im still going to be judging based on how I interpret the rule in question. There is an online resource linked from the Wizards forums that assists me with how judges should be reading this ruling. I will be following those today." | |
Minis... Serious Business
Completed Trades (18 ) | Pending Trades (0)
Ebay seller to Avoid –Fantasy_Quest_Dist
| |
|