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RobWreck
Warrior
295 Posts
    
 | | 05/28/2006 1:36 AM |
| Is it reasonable for people to just drop out of a tournament? I mean, of course there are some times when real-life interrupts and you have to leave, but today at the Milford Qualifier, I heard that 1 or 2 people dropped out because they didn't want their points to go down. What's up with that? I mean, we started with 32 people and finished with 29. Maybe I'm missing something, but to drop out of a tournament just to protect your rating sounds kinda sucky to me...
Rob
PS: I mean, this is a game... and if you're playing at a Qualifier and lose two matches, then you're probably not going to rank in the top 4 and get your invite. So what's the purpose of 'protecting your standing' if you're not going to get the invite anyhow? Play the darned game... [:p] | |
Champion of Aspect of Pelor
If the Founding Fathers of our country were conservatives, we'd still be colonies of England... | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 05/28/2006 1:42 AM |
| It's pretty common for people to drop. Sometimes, newer or less competitive players do just drop simply because they get tired of losing 2 or 3 in a row and decide it's not worth their time to stay in it to get hammered again. Other times, a player will indeed fear for a big drop in points and drop rather than risk getting beat. I've been guilty of that in the WD limited pre-release. It definitely felt cheesy to do that. And I'd like to think I wouldnt do it again the second time around.
It does indeed suck for messing up your opponents' tiebreakers. | |
Champion of Neogi
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RobWreck
Warrior
295 Posts
| | 05/28/2006 1:48 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Feathers
It's pretty common for people to drop. Sometimes, newer or less competitive players do just drop simply because they get tired of losing 2 or 3 in a row and decide it's not worth their time to stay in it to get hammered again. Other times, a player will indeed fear for a big drop in points and drop rather than risk getting beat. I've been guilty of that in the WD limited pre-release. It definitely felt cheesy to do that. And I'd like to think I wouldnt do it again the second time around.
It does indeed suck for messing up your opponents' tiebreakers.
But that's the thing... each round you lose, means the next round **SHOULD** be easier, because they've lost as well. I mean today, I lost my 1st, won my 2nd and 3rd, lost 4th and 5th, and won 6th. Part of that was just the match-ups I faced (I so wanted to face a Marut/Couatl band, but losing that 1st round took them all out of my reach), but you can also tell who the more competitive players are versus the ones just having fun (I'm clearly in the second category). After losing to 1 or two of the formed, especially in a row at the beginning, you've got pretty good chances of running into 'fun players' and having a good time...
Oh well...
Rob | |
Champion of Aspect of Pelor
If the Founding Fathers of our country were conservatives, we'd still be colonies of England... | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 05/28/2006 1:59 AM |
| Many people come to try and qualify, once that is no longer possible, some want to get an early start home.
Some just don't want to lose points when they ca no longer reasonably make top 4. Others just got tired of losing and want to call it a day.
It's a fact of tournament life that there will be drops. | |
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| DDM Constructed Champion 2006
derry
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 05/28/2006 3:52 AM |
| I rarely drop from a tournament because my goals include things other than maximizing my DCI ranking.
But, top-ranked players who loose the first two matches have little incentive to keep playing in a tournament. Yes, they may win all the other matches, but most likely their opponents will not have high enough DCI scores to allow them to make any points back. Also after two losses early means you will not usually make the top places, so no prizes (except Norcal where we usually draft prizes, so something for everyone.)
I think a final reason that is valid from most perspectives is when one loses, especially early, you can get demoralized and feel that dropping is better than playing if your mood does not allow you to have fun. | |
Member of the Low Post Count but High Post Content Society | |
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demitroy
Skirmisher
39 Posts
| | 05/28/2006 10:16 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Derry
I think a final reason that is valid from most perspectives is when one loses, especially early, you can get demoralized and feel that dropping is better than playing if your mood does not allow you to have fun.
I have to be honest... I almost fall into this category. At last year's qual in Vista, I went 0-3. After the third round I found myself seeing red and decided that it didn't make sense to continue playing if all it was doing was making me angry...
I definitely want to win, but at the end of the day it's just a game, so if it isn't fun for me, I'm probably going to take a break. | |
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Zenako
Commander
3469 Posts
| | 05/28/2006 10:42 AM |
| One simple way to address this would be to make drops count as something like a partial loss (if that is possible). Not as bad for rankings as a regular loss, but still something that would hurt for a ranking perspective. It really sucks to be in the position where your opponent has dropped out and you can do nothing about it. It also hurts everyone else they would have played. That might keep some people from ditching and leaving.
Everyone shows up at a tourney expected to play the full set of matches (I presume), so why not. I feel you often learn more about the game from a loss than any number of wins. Gaming the system to maintain a ranking somehow seems kind of like a perversion of the intent of the system. | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 05/28/2006 10:46 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by RobWreck
but today at the Milford Qualifier, I heard that 1 or 2 people dropped out because they didn't want their points to go down. What's up with that?
First off, you're ranting just about one very specific thing that it sounds like you only heard about second-hand. The first possibility is that you didn't hear correctly or misunderstood. Secondly, if a player is approximately 20th in the world currently, as far as DCI Ranking, then they're certain to get a ratings-based invite to the National Championships - unless they screw it up by losing too many points between now and the end of the Qualifier season.
So yeah, after a couple losses and already having no chance to make top four in the qualifier itself, it certainly makes sense for such a person to maximize their chance of qualifying in a different way by dropping from the tournament to preserve their easy invite by DCI rating.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/28/2006 11:19 AM |
| | I've done it in limited events - but I've regretted it every time. So, I probably won't be doing it again. I think Derry's note about the morale issue is spot on. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 05/28/2006 12:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by derry
I rarely drop from a tournament because my goals include things other than maximizing my DCI ranking.
But, top-ranked players who loose the first two matches have little incentive to keep playing in a tournament. Yes, they may win all the other matches, but most likely their opponents will not have high enough DCI scores to allow them to make any points back. Also after two losses early means you will not usually make the top places, so no prizes (except Norcal where we usually draft prizes, so something for everyone.)
I think a final reason that is valid from most perspectives is when one loses, especially early, you can get demoralized and feel that dropping is better than playing if your mood does not allow you to have fun.
I agree completely. We also draft for prizes in the Twin Cities and I'm there to play regardless, but some times people who are worried about their ranking look at it differently than I do. I had a really bad day a little over a month ago, but I kept playing just because I wanted to play and that was what was important to me in that tournament. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
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lynchpt
Sergeant
929 Posts
| | 05/28/2006 12:55 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by RobWreck
Is it reasonable for people to just drop out of a tournament? I mean, of course there are some times when real-life interrupts and you have to leave, but today at the Milford Qualifier, I heard that 1 or 2 people dropped out because they didn't want their points to go down. What's up with that? I mean, we started with 32 people and finished with 29. Maybe I'm missing something, but to drop out of a tournament just to protect your rating sounds kinda sucky to me...
Rob
PS: I mean, this is a game... and if you're playing at a Qualifier and lose two matches, then you're probably not going to rank in the top 4 and get your invite. So what's the purpose of 'protecting your standing' if you're not going to get the invite anyhow? Play the darned game... [:p]
Rob, I can speak to this particular occasion, as I personally know and regularly game with the three people that dropped at Milford.
First, three drops out of 32 playes is not bad.
Steve Foeri went 0-4 and dropped because he was delaying his family from their trip to Cape Cod for a week at the beach. He didn't feel the pleasure of having his Vrock/Hezrou band torched anymore was more fun than going to the pool [:)].
Adam Zarameba and Joe Creighton went 2-3 each before dropping. They are not players who care about rating to any particular degree. They both played armies they picked in the last couple of days without much practice. They had their 5 hours of fun, and decided a real dinner (rather than more pizza) was more fun than one more game.
I don't think drops hurt people who soldier on as much some people think. Even if an opponent you beat goes 0-1 or 0-2 and drops, in tiebreakers you are still credited with a minimum of 0.3333 for that opponent, not 0.
As to the philosophical argument, I have not yet dropped from a tournament because of desire to protect rating, but I don't forswear the tactic or see anything wrong with it. Also, as some posters above have mentioned, the other factors can enter in and blur the picture. I dropped at GenCon Finals last year when I went 2-2 (lost first game). I correctly figured that I was officially out of the running at that point. I was very discouraged at my poor metagame choice, and thought forcing myself to play on didn't make sense when I could spend some more time with my wife (GenCon is our big trip together!). And yes, I was not eager to lose more games and points. So motivations can get murky.
Later, I did regret dropping and getting to play more great players, so I am much more determined to stay the course this year.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 05/28/2006 1:50 PM |
| | I've dropped from a tourney once, Sealed Qual at Gencon last year. It was sunday, my pull was horrid I won the first match against an equally bad pull and then was annihalted by MarkDragon the next match. I was exhausted from the weekend and looking at my pull knew I didn't have a shot so I went home. It happens, its not that big of a deal really. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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RobWreck
Warrior
295 Posts
| | 05/28/2006 2:35 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Dagni
quote:
Originally posted by RobWreck
but today at the Milford Qualifier, I heard that 1 or 2 people dropped out because they didn't want their points to go down. What's up with that?
First off, you're ranting just about one very specific thing that it sounds like you only heard about second-hand. The first possibility is that you didn't hear correctly or misunderstood. Secondly, if a player is approximately 20th in the world currently, as far as DCI Ranking, then they're certain to get a ratings-based invite to the National Championships - unless they screw it up by losing too many points between now and the end of the Qualifier season.
So yeah, after a couple losses and already having no chance to make top four in the qualifier itself, it certainly makes sense for such a person to maximize their chance of qualifying in a different way by dropping from the tournament to preserve their easy invite by DCI rating.
- Dagni
Wow, I'm ranting? Hadn't really considered it as a rant... more of a question about something I saw as really weird and kinda lame as a first-time tournament attendee. I guess I'm still more of a "Hey, it's a game, play the game to have fun and worry about stupid things like rankings later" kind of player as opposed to a die-hard competitive "Must be #1, worry about fun after worrying about winning" type. I guess if your focus in the game is just about winning(qualifier/championship/etc...), then anything allowable by the letter of the rules is an okay tactic... which means dropping out to protect your rating if need be. Personally though, I think that's kinda lame (and that type of outlook is what's caused so many casual Magic players to quit over the years)...
Oh well, to each their own...
Rob | |
Champion of Aspect of Pelor
If the Founding Fathers of our country were conservatives, we'd still be colonies of England... | |
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Myth Master Jr
Sergeant
418 Posts
| | 05/28/2006 2:44 PM |
| | All reasons aside, a drop should constitute a loss in every single match you would have played from that point on. If you're worried about protecting your rank for the championship, then don't play and steal a slot from someone else who may not otherwise make it. I've dropped out once before because I was getting hammered and not having fun, but it would not have bothered me in the least to continue acruing losses. It hurts the games still playing too much to be allowed without consequences. I was a victim of a drop in Richmond Qualifier and I feel it cost me a top four finish. | |
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RobWreck
Warrior
295 Posts
| | 05/28/2006 2:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by lynchpt
quote:
Originally posted by RobWreck
Is it reasonable for people to just drop out of a tournament? I mean, of course there are some times when real-life interrupts and you have to leave, but today at the Milford Qualifier, I heard that 1 or 2 people dropped out because they didn't want their points to go down. What's up with that? I mean, we started with 32 people and finished with 29. Maybe I'm missing something, but to drop out of a tournament just to protect your rating sounds kinda sucky to me...
Rob
PS: I mean, this is a game... and if you're playing at a Qualifier and lose two matches, then you're probably not going to rank in the top 4 and get your invite. So what's the purpose of 'protecting your standing' if you're not going to get the invite anyhow? Play the darned game... [:p]
Rob, I can speak to this particular occasion, as I personally know and regularly game with the three people that dropped at Milford.
First, three drops out of 32 playes is not bad.
Steve Foeri went 0-4 and dropped because he was delaying his family from their trip to Cape Cod for a week at the beach. He didn't feel the pleasure of having his Vrock/Hezrou band torched anymore was more fun than going to the pool [:)].
Adam Zarameba and Joe Creighton went 2-3 each before dropping. They are not players who care about rating to any particular degree. They both played armies they picked in the last couple of days without much practice. They had their 5 hours of fun, and decided a real dinner (rather than more pizza) was more fun than one more game.
I don't think drops hurt people who soldier on as much some people think. Even if an opponent you beat goes 0-1 or 0-2 and drops, in tiebreakers you are still credited with a minimum of 0.3333 for that opponent, not 0.
As to the philosophical argument, I have not yet dropped from a tournament because of desire to protect rating, but I don't forswear the tactic or see anything wrong with it. Also, as some posters above have mentioned, the other factors can enter in and blur the picture. I dropped at GenCon Finals last year when I went 2-2 (lost first game). I correctly figured that I was officially out of the running at that point. I was very discouraged at my poor metagame choice, and thought forcing myself to play on didn't make sense when I could spend some more time with my wife (GenCon is our big trip together!). And yes, I was not eager to lose more games and points. So motivations can get murky.
Later, I did regret dropping and getting to play more great players, so I am much more determined to stay the course this year.
Pat Lynch
Hey Pat,
Thank you for clarifying things. The explanations you gave are all reasonable and not the ones I had heard second-hand. I can't fault any of them for dropping out when they had better things to do. I guess the motivation behind dropping out is what counts, at least in my mind. Dropping out at the end when there's not going to be much effect, or when you've got someplace else to be is cool. Dropping out to metagame the ranking system isn't, IMO.
Thanks,
Rob
PS: I'd still like to get a chance to play against you. I learned a few things after playing the first round against Declan (sp?), and I hear he's got a great coach... | |
Champion of Aspect of Pelor
If the Founding Fathers of our country were conservatives, we'd still be colonies of England... | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
929 Posts
| | 05/28/2006 6:32 PM |
| quote:
PS: I'd still like to get a chance to play against you. I learned a few things after playing the first round against Declan (sp?), and I hear he's got a great coach...
Declan's not so happy today with his coach for recommending he go with dual HGB [:)]. But I told him that he forgot to apply my core teaching - make morale checks.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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lynchdl
Skirmisher
22 Posts
| | 05/28/2006 6:40 PM |
| quote:
I'd still like to get a chance to play against you. I learned a few things after playing the first round against Declan (sp?), and I hear he's got a great coach...
That's my name.
quote:
Declan's not so happy today with his coach for recommending he go with dual HGB . But I told him that he forgot to apply my core teaching - make morale checks.
quote:
I dropped at GenCon Finals last year when I went 2-2 (lost first game). I correctly figured that I was officially out of the running at that point. I was very discouraged at my poor metagame choice, and thought forcing myself to play on didn't make sense when I could spend some more time with my wife
Wait a minute...
I listen to you and play HGB because of the meta, yet when I tell you that LSD is the wrong meta game choice for Chralls you play it anyway. We are gonna have to have a talk about this. What's for supper? | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 05/29/2006 7:04 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by RobWreck
Wow, I'm ranting? Hadn't really considered it as a rant... more of a question about something I saw as really weird and kinda lame as a first-time tournament attendee. I guess I'm still more of a "Hey, it's a game, play the game to have fun and worry about stupid things like rankings later" kind of player as opposed to a die-hard competitive "Must be #1, worry about fun after worrying about winning" type. I guess if your focus in the game is just about winning(qualifier/championship/etc...), then anything allowable by the letter of the rules is an okay tactic... which means dropping out to protect your rating if need be. Personally though, I think that's kinda lame (and that type of outlook is what's caused so many casual Magic players to quit over the years)...
Oh well, to each their own...
Rob
Perhaps rant was the wrong choice of words. My first point stands proven, though. You ran - er, complained mildly and brought up a question to the Maxminis community about something that it now sounds like didn't actually happen the way it was originally reported to you.
It reminded me of a couple similar posts awhile ago, where a simple sentence or two made people *think* they knew why a person had done X... and then post their reasons why no one should do X for that reason. So I'm not picking on you specifically, but even when I first read your post, it reminded me of other misunderstandings - and at the time I didn't even know that it really WAS a misunderstanding!
I guess rant IS the word I wanted to use. It's not that your post was this major vent normally associated with a rant. If it was a rant, it wasn't much of one, heh. It's that I'd say there's this edge of complaint to the post, and specific disagreement with another's actions, that I would normally call a 'rant'.
To WAY oversimplify, you (and others) seem to think that:
1. Dropping is bad.
2. Making decisions based upon how it would affect one's own rating is bad.
Well, perhaps on #2 it's only if caring about one's rating causes you to do something bad - like dropping, heh - that the person cares too much about his own rating. Regardless, I already said I was oversimplifying. In fact, in RobWreck's case, I got a bit of the 'dropping is bad' impression from his first post, but he specifically states otherwise in a later post.
I so totally disagree with that #1 - that dropping is bad. Dropping should not penalize the person dropping in any way (besides keeping him/her from winning in the tournament, of course) and doesn't have any significant adverse effect on any other player, in general. Even in very casual settings, I've been in (rare) situations where there's pressure for a person to keep playing a game when he no longer wants to. It's very lame.
Now I'll quote the many relevant posts I disagree with:
quote:
Originally posted by Feathers
It does indeed suck for messing up your opponents' tiebreakers.
This has gotta be the crux of the issue. This basic sentiment is probably shared by most of the community. I firmly believe it's way overblown.
I'm going to go so far as to give a specific hypothetical. Four players are tied at 5-1. Each of them played the exact same opponents, except they each played a different fourth round opponent than the others. So the win/loss record of the this opponent will determine the tiebreaks. If every opponent dropped (at 2-2), then all the tiebreaks would be tied. If every opponent played, then the tiebreaks would probably end different. However, there's no way to know whether that would hurt the person who played that opponent, or help the person. If the opponent plays the last two rounds, and loses both to drop to 2-4, it hurts the person, but if the last two are wins, (4-2) it helps.
There's no way to know which it will be without playing the games. Besides, tiebreakers are inherently unfair. Or rather, they can never be perfectly fair. The goal of the tiebreak is to pick the person who did better, when two people did about equally well. Why should it matter which player played a guy that went 3-3, instead of 2-4? Probably the other player could've beaten the 3-3 guy same as he beat the 2-4 player. Heck, just facing HGBs instead of Gith Monks is going to make more difference to a Death Slaad band than facing a 3-3 opponent vs a 2-4 opponent!
So, to wrap up a couple related points. Most of the time, a drop from an opponent neither helps nor hurts a player's tiebreaks, it merely *freezes* the tiebreak at a stationary point. Whenever tiebreaks determine who advances, someone gets screwed over anyway. Drops don't increase or decrease the chance that a player will get screwed by tiebreaks. Finally, the 'real' situation is that a player beats someone that's now 0-2, and he drops. It 'freezes' the tiebreak at the low point. Well, sure, that sucks for the person it happened to... but it doesn't change anything! All that just happened is that you found out early that the person you happened to draw was a bad tiebreak.
Two players play a tournament. One person plays opponent A, the other plays opponent B. Unbeknowst to either player, they are going to tie for fourth place at the end of the tournament. Likewise, little do they know that opponent A is going to have a better win/loss than opponent B. The one that plays opponent A will get fourth, the one that plays opponent B will get fifth.
So what difference does it make to those players if opponent B turns out to be a player that drops? Nothing other than psychologically. The only thing that matters is finding out that opponent A is going to have a better win/loss than opponent B! The player that played opponent B is hoping that B will beat out A. When B drops, it guarantees that won't be the case. That sucks. But if B sticks around, all he's doing is adding in the chance that a *different* player gets screwed!
To put it another way, a person can either drop or stay in solely based upon his personal desire to play or do something else... or a person can play favorites, and stay when he would've otherwise dropped, just to give his last opponent a better chance of a good tiebreak. Or I guess a person could play favorites the other way, and drop when he really would've liked to keep on playing, just to hurt the chances of his last opponent.
Either way, the person would be trying to influence the final results in a lame manner. Far better, I'd say, to have it be the normal luck of the draw it generally is, and have a player decide if he wants to keep on playing without any pressure on that person one way or the other.
Playing an opponent that drops does NOT cost ANYONE, EVER, a top four berth!!! Playing an opponent that ends with a terrible win/loss record does. It makes NO difference how that bad record was obtained, nor does the possibility of drops change, in any way, the odds that you will face an opponent that ends up with a bad record.
quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
One simple way to address this would be to make drops count as something like a partial loss (if that is possible). Not as bad for rankings as a regular loss, but still something that would hurt for a ranking perspective. It really sucks to be in the position where your opponent has dropped out and you can do nothing about it. It also hurts everyone else they would have played. That might keep some people from ditching and leaving.
Everyone shows up at a tourney expected to play the full set of matches (I presume), so why not. I feel you often learn more about the game from a loss than any number of wins. Gaming the system to maintain a ranking somehow seems kind of like a perversion of the intent of the system.
The point of the swiss style tournament, instead of a double elimination tournament (which from a winning perspective it *closely* resembles) is so people CAN continue to play and have fun even after they can't win. It's not to force people to play after they've failed to win the whole thing. So no, I'd say that there's no expectation that players play the full set of matches.
In other kinds of tournaments I've been in, there's been a strong expectation amongst the players that nearly *everyone* will drop once eliminated from contention. In some situations, it's to continue to play the same game, but in a newly starting tournament, where they might win. At Magic prereleases, you can drop and start playing 8 person single-elim Draft tournaments the rest of the day.
To go back to the earlier paragraph, how does dropping hurt anyone that stays? If a person forgets to drop, and still leaves the tournament, that sucks. But that DOES count as a loss, so there's already incentive to avoid doing that. Otherwise, dropping only affects others in that there might happen to be an odd number of people afterwards. Getting a Bye sucks, but don't blame a person that dropped, even if there did happen to be an even number of people before he dropped. Byes happen often regardless. Just as often as a drop causes a bye, a drop will get rid of a bye, allowing one more person that wanted to play to be able to than otherwise would've. Likewise, other than byes, everyone who stays plays every round, so I don't see how a person dropping hurts any of the players that otherwise would've been his opponents. Those people still got to play, just not the same person.
quote:
Originally posted by Myth Master Jr
All reasons aside, a drop should constitute a loss in every single match you would have played from that point on. If you're worried about protecting your rank for the championship, then don't play and steal a slot from someone else who may not otherwise make it. I've dropped out once before because I was getting hammered and not having fun, but it would not have bothered me in the least to continue acruing losses. It hurts the games still playing too much to be allowed without consequences. I was a victim of a drop in Richmond Qualifier and I feel it cost me a top four finish.
Since I disagree about drops hurting others, I certainly disagree about enforcing consequences to penalize that. Secondly, what if the person is on the bubble for a ratings based invite? That person's not supposed to play in a qualifier? He doesn't 'steal' a spot from anyone, his rating passes down to the next highest rated player who wouldn't have otherwise qualified.
As an aside, it would be especially bad to have that consequence. Losses hurt a player's rating - and equally help another player's rating. That's the entire basis of the DCI rating system. So having fake losses to no opponent doesn't fit within the ratings system at all, and since the ratings system is interdependant (one person's rating affects the rating of everyone he plays), any sort of 'ratings penalty' to some players would cheapen the accuracy of the entire system.
quote:
Originally posted by RobWreck
Dropping out to metagame the ranking system isn't, IMO.
Eh, perhaps. Since #1 I don't think it should matter much to anyone other than the person dropping whether or not the person does, in fact, drop; I don't see that the reason much matters. If the person doesn't want to play, he shouldn't feel pressured or forced to.
It's not like there's much one can do to help your rating by such a choice anyway! I mean, I guess in AZ when I knew I was about to face Dwayne's Archmage band in round 6, I could've dropped then. While I won, I'm rather sure that in that matchup the percentage chance I'm going to lose was much higher than our relative DCI ratings would predict, so I would've 'saved' DCI points by dropping then, lol.
Other than something wierd like that, what does dropping do for a DCI rating?! Nothing different than if a person always decides to bring his most cutthroat band because he wants to win DCI points, or always trying a questionable band in non-sanctioned games before considering it for use in a sanctioned tournament.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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Myth Master Jr
Sergeant
418 Posts
| | 05/29/2006 9:16 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Dagni
Playing an opponent that drops does NOT cost ANYONE, EVER, a top four berth!!!
Okay, I can't say with absolute certainty that it cost me a spot, but I Definately think it helped.
quote:
Originally posted by Dagni
Secondly, what if the person is on the bubble for a ratings based invite? That person's not supposed to play in a qualifier?
My opinion was based on an auto invite for the championship as was made reference to in an earlier post. If your on the bubble, your not an auto invite. So, I guess you would need to play.
quote:
Originally posted by Dagni
He doesn't 'steal' a spot from anyone, his rating passes down to the next highest rated player who wouldn't have otherwise qualified.
Okay, maybe I don't have this right but a couple years back some guys from Minnesota who were ranked in the top 25 already, came down to our qualifier and took three of the top four spots after already having qualified at another qualifier to boot. So now their qualified three times over. Maybe their ranking does pass down, but not necessarily to the guys at the qualifier. The guys at the qualifier lost their only shots to get in unless they can afford to travel somewhere else.
quote:
Originally posted by Dagni
As an aside, it would be especially bad to have that consequence. Losses hurt a player's rating - and equally help another player's rating. That's the entire basis of the DCI rating system. So having fake losses to no opponent doesn't fit within the ratings system at all, and since the ratings system is interdependant (one person's rating affects the rating of everyone he plays), any sort of 'ratings penalty' to some players would cheapen the accuracy of the entire system.
Fine. Thats the way it should be. It would keep a lot of the dropping down because it would cost too much to do so. As far as effecting others ratings, Whats the difference in a fake loss versus a real one? The guy plays the match, loses, gains play experience and should be awarded more points than a guy who drops and gets a fake loss. And since I do feel that drops hurt in later rounds, I'm all for this system. I'm not against people dropping if they need to, it just shouldn't be inconsequential to do so. If you don't want to play all the rounds, don't play. It's more a sportmanship issue than anything.
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 05/30/2006 12:59 AM |
| | It is quite possible that having the opponent you just defeated drop out actually helps you. Suppose he brought a really weak warband like Gaze All-Day. With this loss to you his record is now 2-2 and he now decides to drop. It helps you for him to drop to freeze his win-loss pct. at 50%. Had he continued in the tournament and lost to all of his remaining opponents his win-loss pct. would have gone down and hurt your tiebreaks. A drop would only hurt you if you felt your opponent would have gone on to win a lot more games. | |
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 2:24 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Myth Master Jr
Okay, maybe I don't have this right but a couple years back some guys from Minnesota who were ranked in the top 25 already, came down to our qualifier and took three of the top four spots after already having qualified at another qualifier to boot. So now their qualified three times over. Maybe their ranking does pass down, but not necessarily to the guys at the qualifier. The guys at the qualifier lost their only shots to get in unless they can afford to travel somewhere else.
Way off on that one. Last year one guy from Minn (Ironballz) qualed in KY, he was not anywhere near top 25 and wasnt qualed already.
Millygoat and Ben came with a friend they were trying to get qualed (from Ohio) and they actually asked the TO/judge about dropping before the top 4 since they had already qualed and letting the top 4 spots slide down and they were told (incorrectly) that the spots would not and if they dropped they were just wasted. Millygoat probably would have had a top 25 invite at that time, but that wasn't a lock as alot of his rating went up with his top 8 finish at Gencon. Ben wasn't near top 25 I don't think. They originally were there to get their friend qualified and tried to let them slide. I was on the cusp with you in that situation having a 3-2 record (which was the tie breaker for 4th spot).
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 2:30 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Chad the DragonLordofAiur
It is quite possible that having the opponent you just defeated drop out actually helps you. Suppose he brought a really weak warband like Gaze All-Day. With this loss to you his record is now 2-2 and he now decides to drop. It helps you for him to drop to freeze his win-loss pct. at 50%. Had he continued in the tournament and lost to all of his remaining opponents his win-loss pct. would have gone down and hurt your tiebreaks. A drop would only hurt you if you felt your opponent would have gone on to win a lot more games.
This is very true. Take for example the guy who left at rd 2 in KY. He had won the first rd and lost the second as a noshow before he was listed as a drop. That helped Johnny.Quests tie breaker alot since he was at 50.000 winning percentage and his opponents win rating ended up being like 75.000 or something insane like that. That helped alot more than someone who would have stayed and got losses. My tie breaker was horrible as my first and second rd opponents ended up having not so hot days. If my second rd opponent who lost 3 or 4 after he beat me had dropped at some pt rather than staying, my tie breaker would have been better.
Counting on tie breakers always sucks. I've been in that position multiple times (all three qualifiers I was at last year including grinder). Someone once told me the best way to get into the top 4 is to not lose or only lose once. It sounded prickish at the time but it really is true. Tie breakers are fickle, there is so much weirdness that goes into them. I mean if we are going to complain about drops lets look at the whole time of entry into system last tie breaker that supposedly exists. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Myth Master Jr
Sergeant
418 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 9:40 AM |
| | Okay fellas, I can agree that yoo've pointed out some instances were a drop can help. But I still think that the fair route would be all remaining matches to count as losses. Everything else is just to random. If everyone knows exactly what the rules are going into the tournament, then there can be no complaints about how so and so dropping hurt my chances, or, how him dropping helped. I don't know, I'm obviously fighting an uphill battle, but it just seems far more fair to me. Also, remember, it would effect me the same way it does everyone else and I have thought about that. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 9:48 AM |
| I think what it comes down to is that dropping for any reason other than "I'm not having fun" seems cheesy. I personally don't think it's unethical or otherwise wrong or unfair, and, in fact, I think it's often the smart thing to do.
But "smart" and "cheesy" are very, very far from mutually exclusive.
(Isn't "Smart and Cheesy" a snack cracker? Either that or a perfume. I forget.) | |
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 10:02 AM |
| | I dropped from a sealed tournament I played this weekend. I had drawn a Gulgar and King Obould, and nothing good for the commons and uncommons and looking around me I saw things like Dual Sand Giants, War Troll, War Troll + Hill Giant Barbarian + Warpriest of Moradin, Aspect of Hextor + Shuluth, Hill Giant Chieftan + 2 Blood Ghost Berserkers, and Hill Giant Barbarian/War Drummer/Warforged Bodyguard. I decided I would play until I lost a game because a) I don't like playing in games where I have a very, very small chance of victory and b) Every loss I had would be very costly DCI-wise. I made it through the first match (beating Hill Giant Chieftan + 2 BGBs) and got smashed in the second round by the War Troll + Hill Giant Barbarian. Am I a bad person? [:P] | |
I am not gone. | |
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sienar
Sergeant
640 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 10:33 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
I dropped from a sealed tournament I played this weekend. I had drawn a Gulgar and King Obould, and nothing good for the commons and uncommons and looking around me I saw things like Dual Sand Giants, War Troll, War Troll + Hill Giant Barbarian + Warpriest of Moradin, Aspect of Hextor + Shuluth, Hill Giant Chieftan + 2 Blood Ghost Berserkers, and Hill Giant Barbarian/War Drummer/Warforged Bodyguard. I decided I would play until I lost a game because a) I don't like playing in games where I have a very, very small chance of victory and b) Every loss I had would be very costly DCI-wise. I made it through the first match (beating Hill Giant Chieftan + 2 BGBs) and got smashed in the second round by the War Troll + Hill Giant Barbarian. Am I a bad person? [:P]
Well, yes, but not for dropping from the tournament. [:p]
I had a similar situation to this the last two Sealed tournaments I played. I had no chance of winning with what I had pulled. I had to play extremely well to win a match, period. I really considered dropping before even playing one match, but stuck it out. My Limited rating is now on milk cartons.
mini-rant
My DCI rating is important to me. I'm not going to jump off a bridge every time it drops, but I like to have it as high as possible. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with not caring at all about your DCI rating. It's really not even just a DCI rating thing either. When you are just getting pounded into the ground, the fun leaves the game very quickly. I want to play. I prefer to win, but I'll gladly walk away content from a well-fought match with a loss. Frankly, I tire of people attacking (too strong of word, but too early in morning to come up with better) others because DCI ratings are important to them.
/mini-rant
I see nothing wrong with dropping from a tournament. For the reasons Dagni, plynch, and others have already listed plus one more. Do you give match losses to somebody who drops because of a family emergency? That seems a bit harsh. If you don't, do you really want the judge to have to make the judgement call as to why somebody dropped, giving some match losses and some not? There are enough bans in DCI for verbal abuse and assault already... | |
[http://www.hordelings.com/frontend/profiles/profile.php?user_id=22] | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 10:52 AM |
| There is nothing wrong with dropping.
For example, I'll be going to the Niles qualifier, only because I have the best wife in the world. She has graciously agreed to have our family vacation start with a side trip to Niles so that I can play DDM. If it is obvious I'm not qualifying, I'll be dropping after 7 pm or so. That way we can move onto the next hotel on the other side of Chicago so we don't have to drive through the city on Monday morning. I'm not sticking around all night (assuming we have more than 32 people and need to play for at least 6 rounds, with breaks....). I still haven't figured out what my family will be doing after 7 on a Sunday.
Drops happen. The best way to make sure they don't affect your tiebreakers is to win more games.
Someone mentioned swiss vs double elimination. I have run the pinewood derby for my sons' cub scout Pack the last 2 years and have done some research on this. Not only is double elimination not fun as you may only get two races, it is not very likely to have the "best" be the eventual winner. Swiss events are actually fairly likely (though there are other methods more likely to have the "best" be the winner, most involve waaaaaay to much time). | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
929 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 11:18 AM |
| One other factor in favor of not penalizing drops:
DDM has a growing tournament scene, but it is growing slowly. I think we should do everything possible to encourage people to play in tournaments. It seems to me that penalties for dropping might discourage some people from joining a tournament, especially people who know that they might have to leave early for other life activities.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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neilasaurus
Sneak
134 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 11:52 AM |
| | Interesting note, in the sealed tournament doubtofbuddha dropped from, the DCI tournament software listed him above people that played the whole tournament out, such as myself. I went 1-2 he went 1-1 and dropped. And I mean, about half of the people in the tournament were listed below him. Of course that was ignored for purposed of who placed what, but still it seemed extremely silly. Makes me suspicious of the whole program if they didn't bother to program in listing people who dropped at the bottom. If they were that lazy, maybe alphabetical order really does figure into it. | |
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sienar
Sergeant
640 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 12:23 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by neilasaurus
Interesting note, in the sealed tournament doubtofbuddha dropped from, the DCI tournament software listed him above people that played the whole tournament out, such as myself. I went 1-2 he went 1-1 and dropped. And I mean, about half of the people in the tournament were listed below him. Of course that was ignored for purposed of who placed what, but still it seemed extremely silly. Makes me suspicious of the whole program if they didn't bother to program in listing people who dropped at the bottom. If they were that lazy, maybe alphabetical order really does figure into it.
You don't lose your place because you drop. You maintain the standings you had. If he had one win and a opponent win % of 50%, then he would place above anybody with no wins and anybody with one win with a lower opponent win % of 50%. Dropping doesn't take away what you have done, it just means you are not playing any further in the tournament. | |
[http://www.hordelings.com/frontend/profiles/profile.php?user_id=22] | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 12:27 PM |
| I've only dropped from 1 tournament, which was a sealed qualifier in Niles.
I was 2-2 when I dropped, with only 2 rounds remaining and a sub-optimal pull, to go with the 3 hour drive home. By sub optimal I mean Celestial Pegasus and Trumpet Archon rares with no commander. I won 2 games simply because the 2 players I faced were not great players, but that wouldn't last. It wasn't even about my ranking, since my limited ranking is less then stellar.
I wouldn't care about dropping due to not getting to play either, I can play in a tournament every week here if I want, not including the 6 or 7 players we can gather any other night of the week should we choose.
This time at Niles, if I start doing poorly, I will likely wait until I see what the people I come with are wanting to do before I drop. With estimated attendence of 50+, it could be a long day on a Sunday with work the next day. If I don't think I'm making top 4, I'll be headed home early then too. | |
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Zenako
Commander
3469 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 1:20 PM |
| Interesting...while I have not played in DCI events yet, I have been involved in other games that have rankings and also use Swiss formats. Scrabble for example...
My comments were perhaps coming from a more purest standpoint of playing games is just simply fun. The old adage of its not about winning or losing, but how you play the game that matters. That learning about games and nuances of them is rewarding in its own right. Yup, winning is good and immensely satisfying when you face a worthy opponent.
Part of this may just be my nature. When I commit to doing something, I stick it out unless outside forces prevent me from doing so. I watch movies to the end and even the credits too. I stay at ballgames until the last out is recorded, win or lose. I never bailed in online games like Starcraft if my side was losing. Just the way I am...
As to how dropping from a tourney affects final standings, it can clearly be argued that whom will benefit is not known due to the number of remaining unknowns, but the fact that someone will likely benefit from that course of action has been made clear. | |
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Dral
Skirmisher
29 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 1:38 PM |
| Doubt, in answer to your question, yes you are a very bad person for dropping....
Seriously though, the problem I have with people dropping is that it can adversely affect someone else's chances in the tourney, especially in smaller tourney's.
I like Zenako's idea of giving partial loss for remaining rounds in a dropped tourney. | |
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 1:48 PM |
| Considering that I would have likely lost my third match, the fact that I dropped actually helped my opponents. [:P]
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I am not gone. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 1:59 PM |
| I've dropped from several events. At Winter Fantasy I dropped from the War Drums pre-release (with a 2-1 record) because (a) I was certain my band wasn't good enoug to win and (b) there was a 200 constructed starting (the last of the 12 figure events and I really wanted to play that). I also dropped from the Championship last year at GenCon once I had been mathematically (*mostly-)eliminated from the top eight to play in some other events.
*I say mostly because if enough people dropped ahead of me I could have potentially made it in, but in general those winning do not drop - and certainly not in a championship event.
There are plenty of valid reasons to drop. | |
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neilasaurus
Sneak
134 Posts
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