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TheOriginalGamer
Sneak
149 Posts
    
Oklahoma
 | | 07/01/2006 6:25 PM |
| I want to get some feedback on something that happened at our pre-release today and see what you guys think.
The Pre-release tournament:
One participant plays two rounds and wins both. In the third round his opponent noticies that he is playing with 600 points. The guy with the faulty warband comes up immedietly, even before his opponent said anything. He apologies to me and the other two staff feel that his infraction wasn't intentional.
The mistake we made:
We did not have everyone register their warbands. This will be changed so that we always do so from now on. The pre-release was already late by 20 minutes and time was a major factor in getting these warbands on a list. I am not sure that we would have manually added 26 warbands before the tournament, but having something in writing might have helped the person realize the math was off on his warband.
So lets all assume that this wasn't intentional. That could be an endless debate and there isn't any evidence to support either case 100%.
I also find that there isn't any documentation on penalties for D&D minis, only Magic.
In Magic, if someone has an illegal deck they have 5 minutes to fix it, and they take a match loss. If he can not fix it in 5 minutes, he loses the whole round.
We handled this as best we could given the information we had. I also called another store in California that is doing the pre-release and they gave some suggestions as well.
What would you do given the parameters above? Just looking for some ideas to have a better pre-release next time.
Thanks!
Jared
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Bluedevyl
Warrior
262 Posts
| | 07/01/2006 6:52 PM |
| If I were the TO and that situation arose, you can give him 5 minutes to repair the band and then let his 3rd round match continue, but
I think you are compelled to reverse the results of the first two rounds and award the wins to his opponents as a result. | |
Champion of Tanis Half-Elven | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10427 Posts
United States
| | 07/01/2006 9:21 PM |
| Strange situation, and, I think, and excellent example of why we should always count points before we start. Maybe one lesson from this is, at the beginning of the first match, once everybody has sat down, have everyone add up the points in their opponents' bands. For all who are okay, they can start right away. Anyone who is over has 5 minutes to fix it or face a match loss.
But, in your specific situation....
I don't know about reversing previous results. From a certain perspective, it's each player's job to notice if his opponent is playing a band that has 20% too many points.
Since he's already been granted two dubious wins, if the game state of the third game had been progressed enough, I might just say that he was winning because of the point difference, and that it was clearly cheating (even if unintentional) and so given him a match loss (this assumes that the previous match's results cannot be reversed). Then, I'd tell the player to remove 100 points (or more, of course) from his band if he wanted to continue playing in the event (of course, no exchanging of pieces is allowed).
But, supposing it were the first match. Much depends upon the game state. If it's early, then giving the offender 5 minutes to remove 100 points of pieces is probably fair. If the game has progressed to about the 4th or 5th out of what would probably have been 8 or 9 rounds, then it's very likely that the points remaining on the board are awkwardly distributed from where they were earlier. Removing merely 100 points at this point might not be justified--the 100 point edge might have earned him, say, 200 points of kills when he'd have only otherwise have had 80. It might not be possible to impose a fair penalty at this point so assigning a match loss might be appropriate.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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atlantiscomics
Skirmisher
21 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 2:04 AM |
| As a TO with lots of events under my belt (mostly Magic) I would give the player a warning and game loss and have him fix it for round 4 since the game loss would lose him the 3rd round.
103. Deck Problem—Illegal Main Deck (No Decklist Used)
I know that in a one game format a game loss is essentially a match loss but I think there needs to be some type of penalty since it could be argued that the first 2 games were won due to unfair advantage. You can't really go back and apply penalties to previous rounds (to my knowledge). It sounds like the guy just made a mistake and I think a game loss is appropriate since he did make the mistake. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 4:22 AM |
| It's clearly unintentional. Hoping to make it through a four- to six-round tournament without someone noticing you're 100 points over is so ballsy you wouldn't be able to sit like a normal person.
As to what the rules say, no idea. As to what's fair, I thinkthe fairest thing is to DQ the player for the three games, let him fix his warband, and continue. As for whoever said it's up to the opponent to add up the points and make sure it's a legal warband, that's just wrong. That's what the judges and TO are for. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 4:40 AM |
| That's a hard one. I think the minimum that has to happen is you have to DQ him for the 3 matches and award wins, even though it means the pairings are messed up.
I would probably try to avoid anything further and have him cut out the extra 100 points (no rebuilding beyond simply removing figures, IMO) unless the DCI rules have something specific in addition that must be done. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Lance H
Sergeant
403 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 7:04 AM |
| The problem is that the DCI floor rules do not address the issue.
I was at the pre-release and consulted with the store owner about this particular question. We went over every DCI document there is, and had we been playing Magic, we would have found our answer. But D&D Minis don't have that kind of comprehensive backup information.
(And while I'm here, let me ask why Dreamblade already has a Rules Advisor test and D&D Minis still does not?)
In the end, without any help to be found in the DCI rules, the store owner made the best choice, and everyone involved was satisfied.
By the way, the event had 26 participants and was a huge success. The store hosted a wonderful event! | |
Lance Hawvermale -- Writer/Editor, Necromancer Games
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Daunte
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 8:28 AM |
| I was at the pre-release, which really was a blast, and not just because we creamed the Stillwater guys again, hehe. I think the TO/Store owner did a great job in resolving this and everyone really was satisfied with the outcome.
We actually talked about this a lot while we were there amongst the players. Everyone agreed with the way it was handled. We all also agree dthat one of the first things you should always do is look at your opponents warband, so you know what he is playing and so you know its legal. Whether its your responsibility or the TO's doesnt matter, if your not doing it its your own screwup IMO and most of the people I talked to. The person who played him in the first match is one of my good friends that made the drive up with me, and he even agreed he should of looked at the band and that it was the TO's fault.
But Jared, I think what we did at the War Drums pre-release was a great way to do it, at the begining of the first match, have everyone count the opponents band. Then if someone is over, its cause they cannot count or are trying to be slick and the person counting is there friend and letting them. Either way, with two people counting, mistakes are caught and if not then you know somone is trying to get away with something. Plus it avoids things getting started even later.
But thanks for a great event, cant wait till the next one. And wasnt just great cause i won either, hehe. | |
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XenoZephyr
Underboss
1083 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 10:41 AM |
| As a judge, I have everyone write out their warband with the cost of each figure and then I add them up during the first round. If someone is over, I give them a game loss and a chance to correct it for the next round.
In that case, yes, the opponents would have been different but you can edit earlier game results on the dci reporter, so I would have given him a game loss and also given him a game loss for any previous wins as well. At 100 pts over, I would also go through and give the people that he played a win as well. At 2 pts over, I'm not sure if I would also give the opponents wins though. | |
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Zippy
Underboss
1993 Posts
Whitewater, WI
| | 07/02/2006 2:37 PM |
| I would recommend the judge(s) verify warband construction before 1st round of play. We write down all pulls, and of those which we're using in the band (and map). That allows easy verification of points. Build errors can be addressed before a 600 on 500 match occurs that way.
As a player, I rough count the opponent's warband (to verify points, but also to know if I get X rounds of tile points I can avoid having to eliminate X enemies). I might not catch 10 points in epic, but I'll catch 100 for sure.
Good luck resolving this specific oops. | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 3:44 PM |
| In MN we had every first round opponent add up the totals to be sure.
The floor rules for Magic and DDM are the same. So, this would be an "illegal deck" like in Magic. My advice is to continue to politely request Ian and Shoe to get some floor rules for DDM. The tournament scene is now 3 years old and we still need to wade through and interpret Magic rules and how they should be applied to a totally different game.
Definitely a loss in match 3. Re-build the band for remaining matches. I'd have to check the floor rules for the first 2 matches. | |
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Eiznoragad
Sneak
142 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 4:56 PM |
| We had this come up in a constructed match about a year ago. One of the guys was over by one point, but the error wasn't found until after the first match. It took the TO about twenty minutes to find something in the DCI rules that applied. This was what he came up with.
1. The previous match had already been played, so the results stood.
2. The warband had to be reduced by its lowest cost figure or figures to make it legal. (We removed one elf warrior to make it 198)
3. As a penalty, the hightest cost figure in the warband is then removed for the remainder of the tournamnet. (He happened to be playing a Centaur Hero. OUCH!)
We all thought that was fair, if not a little harsh for one point, but everyone counts their points very carefully now. | |
D&D Minis wednesdays at 6pm in Charlotte, NC at Underground Games. Sanctioned tournament third Sat. of every month. Dagaronzie on WotC Boards. | |
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ahmish
Sneak
58 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 5:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lance H
In the end, without any help to be found in the DCI rules, the store owner made the best choice, and everyone involved was satisfied.
What exactly was the decision? | |
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ahmish
Sneak
58 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 6:02 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Eiznoragad
We had this come up in a constructed match about a year ago. One of the guys was over by one point, but the error wasn't found until after the first match. It took the TO about twenty minutes to find something in the DCI rules that applied. This was what he came up with.
1. The previous match had already been played, so the results stood.
That is the right decision for this particular situation.
quote:
Originally posted by Eiznoragad
2. The warband had to be reduced by its lowest cost figure or figures to make it legal. (We removed one elf warrior to make it 198)
Again, another appropriate judgement.
quote:
Originally posted by Eiznoragad
3. As a penalty, the hightest cost figure in the warband is then removed for the remainder of the tournamnet. (He happened to be playing a Centaur Hero. OUCH!)
I don't agree with this penalty. There are no provisions or precedents for point penalties ( awarding assault points or docking them ) or temporary removal of figures. The appropriate thing to do in any sanctioned event is issue:
a verbal caution (not reported to the DCI)
a caution
a warning
a Game loss
a DQ
Anything else is, in my assessment, beyond the provisions provided in the general DCI floor rules.
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Eiznoragad
Sneak
142 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 6:50 PM |
| | I don't know where the TO found the info, but it was written somewhere because he quoted something directly. It was out his "big book of rules" (for lack of a better term) that he keeps behind the counter. I beleive it came from another WotC game based on a points system, maybe one of the sports games. I'm not sure. | |
D&D Minis wednesdays at 6pm in Charlotte, NC at Underground Games. Sanctioned tournament third Sat. of every month. Dagaronzie on WotC Boards. | |
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LeClaire
Warrior
225 Posts
| | 07/03/2006 10:42 AM |
| There has to be some penalty attached to an error so large. Otherwise you'll have unscrupulous people sneaking in a few more points time and again... Especially if you set a precedent of leniency.
Frankly I'm surprised that it isn't SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) to register your band at the start of every tournament, especially a pre-release. There are soooooo many casual players and unfamiliar figures, coupled with an adrenaline-ized time constraint that it’s a wonder that more honest mistakes aren’t made. It’s rather easy for someone to “accidentally” go over by a few points and not be blamed. A more organized approach just helps to level the playing field. No accusations should be read into this.
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 07/03/2006 11:15 AM |
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I don't know what I'd do facing that situation. Hopefully I'll never have to encounter it as a judge or TO. Given the huge point discrepancy, I would likely give the player in question a match loss for each game already played - but that is a tough call. Where do you draw the line? 20% of the warband size? 10%? 5%?
At the Waco prerelease, the judge didn't have us fill out a form or anything, so we organized the players to check the person's warband across from them, making sure every warband had at least a second pair of eyes counting them up.
At our Austin tournaments, part of registration is turning in your band's cards (along with DCI# and entry fee receipt), and we verify the cards and the band's point count before the player is entered into the computer.
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 07/03/2006 3:15 PM |
| Ahmish is correct.
You are not allowed to remove one of his figures. There is no provision in the DCI rules for this, and it is a sanction far beyond the rules of the game.
He loses the match where the point value discrepancy is noticed.
Note that, this could have been the first match, if the opponents were paying attention.
It is unfortunate that he won two matches, but this could have occurred for any other misunderstanding in the rules.
As pointed out, this was avoidable, and only occurs when you don't check WB building prior to start. Catching it before play minimizes the penalty, if any is given at all.
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Let it be. | |
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Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 07/03/2006 3:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by LeClaire
There has to be some penalty attached to an error so large. Otherwise you'll have unscrupulous people sneaking in a few more points time and again... Especially if you set a precedent of leniency.
When the mistake is caught, unless the judge is sure the problem was intentional, I believe the penalty is 103. Deck Problem- Illegal Decklist, just as atlantiscomics said. The TO must report all penalties to the DCI. You won't have "unscrupulous people sneaking in a few more points time and again" because the DCI will notice when the same person has an illegal warband again and again, probably resulting in a suspension.
If the judge is sure the mistake is intentional, that's a Cheating penalty of some sort, which is DQ without prize (and probably a suspension after the DCI investigates).
In any case, previous match results are unaffected.
Everyone: be clear on your language. By DCI rules, Cheating is an intentional offense, and intentional offenses are Cheating. It's like "round" and "turn" in DDM rules...people use the terms interchangably, but they are not actually interchangable. | |
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ahmish
Sneak
58 Posts
| | 07/04/2006 2:57 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fry
If the judge is sure the mistake is intentional, that's a Cheating penalty of some sort, which is DQ without prize (and probably a suspension after the DCI investigates).
In any case, previous match results are unaffected.
Everyone: be clear on your language. By DCI rules, Cheating is an intentional offense, and intentional offenses are Cheating. It's like "round" and "turn" in DDM rules...people use the terms interchangably, but they are not actually interchangable.
Superb point. Cheating vs. Procedural error is a matter of intent.
If the player intentionally plays with extra points, he is cheating. If he screws up his math (in this case in a massive way - how do you accidentally play with an extra 100 points anyway?) unintentionally then he has committed a procedural error.
In my assessment, given the details at hand, this is a major procedural error that cannot be easily corrected.
Section 813 of version 1.4.1 of the DCI DDM floor rules requires all decks to be registered. Unfortunately this wasn't the case at this event.
Pre-releases are REL 1 events. REL 1 events are to be treated as a learning event. That is to say, from a judging philosophy stand point judges should make rulings in an effort to guide, instruct and teach players who violate DCI floor rules.
If section 813 were adhered to at this tournament (deck registration), my suggested course of action would be to award a match loss in round 3 and then remove the smallest single model that makes the warband legal.
The player should not be allowed to reconstruct his band. Each player should have precisely the same amount of time to construct their deck.
Under no circumstance should the prior round standings be altered.
I think this falls nicely under the REL 1 judging philosophy.
Note: this is a heavily altered course of action than that which Mike Derry and I offered on the phone with the gentlemen calling from Stillwater (Go Pokes!.) There are a couple details that I don't recall hearing on Saturday and I've had some time to reflect on the issue.
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ahmish
Sneak
58 Posts
| | 07/04/2006 3:09 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by LeClaire
Frankly I'm surprised that it isn't SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) to register your band at the start of every tournament, especially a pre-release. There are soooooo many casual players and unfamiliar figures, coupled with an adrenaline-ized time constraint that it’s a wonder that more honest mistakes aren’t made. It’s rather easy for someone to “accidentally” go over by a few points and not be blamed. A more organized approach just helps to level the playing field. No accusations should be read into this.
It is SOP. Section 813 requires all warbands to be registered for all DDM events. Note, this is very different that the SOP for M:tg events. I surmise that the TO and judges at the event have some sort of M:tg background and may be relatively new to running DDM events.
They made a judgment call and skipped the deck registration step because they were running behind schedule. It’s within their purview to so that sort of thing provided they feel that it results in a better event and they can still maintain the integrity of the event.
Deck registration (and checking) probably would have prevented this problem, but that is moot. What is done is done. I think they did an excellent job of damage control (calling for advice on the situation took a bit of leg work and a lot of initiative) and they are doing the right thing after the event (following up online and using the community as a source for constructive feedback)
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 07/04/2006 4:44 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ahmish
how do you accidentally play with an extra 100 points anyway?
IMO, being 100 points over is far more likely to be accidental than being, say, 30 points over. Being 100 points over is almost certainly a matter of forgetting to "carry the one" when adding up the warband. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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Neon Knight
Sneak
96 Posts
| | 07/04/2006 2:17 PM |
| I wish someone woulda counted my warband at my prerelease. I played a 7 figure band with 489 points :( I could have easily fit in another 9 point fig for 8 figs, 498 points.
O well, still came in second after 4 rounds of Modified Swiss. | |
Daniel the Neon Knight | |
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ahmish
Sneak
58 Posts
| | 07/04/2006 6:04 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
quote:
Originally posted by ahmish
how do you accidentally play with an extra 100 points anyway?
IMO, being 100 points over is far more likely to be accidental than being, say, 30 points over. Being 100 points over is almost certainly a matter of forgetting to "carry the one" when adding up the warband.
You are more of an optimist than I am. I've judged a lot of events over the years and have seen people do some disappointingly dreadful things at tournaments. That being said, I don't assume that this player was cheating. Rather, quite simply, I'm befuddled at the magnitude of the addition error.
How do you forget to carry the one from the 10s slot to the 100s? My guess is that the player may not have added totals at all, if they did they certainly didn't double check their math. If they were really rushed I could see this kind of mistake happening. But, I find it odd that the mistake wasn't noticed by the player or either opponent in round 1 and 2. With 600 points this player must have been fielding some combination of 3 huges/epics. That should set the 'somethings odd' meter right off.
Perhaps they picked the 8 models they liked the most. Perhaps this was a young player. Perhaps this was a Math major ( who in my experience tend to be dreadful at simple arithmetic [:D]) or an OU student. Perhaps Dexter Manly was back in town and he decided to give DDM at try. Who knows.
Innocent accident or no, the magnitude of the error is huge and disturbing. To put it in perspective, this is the equivalent of showing up to skirmish with 3 HGBs and 2 orc warriors.
We had one player in Santa Clara use a calculator and still manage to register a 514 point band. But, we had a written record and we verified all warbands before the onset of round 1. Did I assume this player was trying to cheat? I assumed that he was sloppy with his math. 20 minutes isn't enough time for all players to accurately scribe their warbands. It works for the majority of folks, but not everyone.
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 07/04/2006 10:28 PM |
| So what was the resolution to the situation at the pre-release?
What did you decide to do? | |
Champion of Neogi
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