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ESTILLG
Skirmisher
11 Posts
    
 | | 06/07/2006 8:56 AM |
| | I have always thought that once you are in you should not be able to play in any more of the qualifiers. That might solve some of the problems with people getting in. It is one thing to qualify locally, but then to travel and try and qualify again once your in or in with DCI points, you already get plenty of play time by the fact you are top 25 in DCI rankings. The nationals are about playing all of the top players and if some people travel around and knock out other people after they are already in, I think we can hurt the overall game if we are not careful to encourage more people to play. | |
GEORGE ESTILL
Member of Team Amish | |
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forkedmoon
Underboss
1305 Posts
| | 06/07/2006 9:23 AM |
| Personally I have no problem with the way the ability to play multiple qualifiers works. I even question the fact that the winner can't play again. There are limited events of this caliber available.
But I do question the idea of players who have already qualified dropping to have their slot drop down. Not sure how I would feel if through luck of the draws I pulled two players ina qualifier who had already qualified and took a pair of losses virtually knocking me out of the top only to see these guys drop and others who had less experienced competition now get spots while I am sitting outisde beaten by players who didn't want to win the prize. I know it goes both ways I could be the one who gets in because of their drops as well. Luck of the draw, but I had hoped to get in off wins not luck of the draw. | |
Champion of Cyclops
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 06/07/2006 10:54 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Dagni
quote:
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Originally posted by bshugg
I'm not a real fan of letting invited people play in qualifiers. Either if they qualified through ranking, or worse qualified through playing in a qualifier. A player that is not invited on ranking who qualifies at multiple events ends up taking away a slot from other players each time. Thats not a fair system.
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I'm a huge proponent of having top 4 invites pass down. I'm a huge opponent of not allowing players to play in as many qualifiers as they wish.
I assume that's because you want more competitive tournaments to play in? Why not run some yourself? You have a decent enough sized play group to run a biweekly sanctioned event if you desired.
quote:
Originally posted by Tried
Qualifiers are the ONLY premier DDM events.(aside from the recent open tournament series). They draw players from far and wide, and they provide an intense gaming experience. More is at risk, with the higher K value. There is more adrenalin.
Qualifiers are excellent practice for the big show. Most of us in socal want to play in as many quals as we possibly can...
The point is not necessarily qualifying, or the prize (which, as you say, is a bonus) - it is the play that attracts people like Dagni.
(well, and the rest of us.)
The problem with this is that its feeding on a weak system. If you want more competitive events, RUN MORE! The qualifiers are a feeder system to get people into higher levels of play. The players that win feel a sense of accomplishment at achieving a higher level of play. This makes them want to play more. The qualified on rankings (or Top 4) are already in that system and play at that higher level. I was told in at the PA qualifier that a lot of local players didn't come out because they heard of all the "sharks" coming in from out of town to qualify. That hurts the tournament scene far more than it helps. Its bad for the game and for the tournament scene that we all crave.
Its true in a way, that to compete at a top level, you need to have the skill to compete at that level. It would be more true if we had a very healthy tournament scene with 100's of events being reported. Unfortunatly we don't. The majority of players are not willing to step up and run events. Instead they count on others to do so and the few scattered events run by WotC as their source.
When Rob made top 4 at one qualifier then won the second one, he took a spot away from another player. His invite based on ranking is only going to drop down to one person for the two slots he wasted. Rather than a second person maybe going to GenCon and competiting in the championships, odds are that person is going to stay home. Heck even the person who gets the invite passed down may not show or even realize he's invited. At least the person who would of made top 4 at the qualifier is an active player. In exchange for the cash or plane ticket or what ever,Rob took someones chance to play at the championship.
I have seen it happen over and over in game lines. If you don't have a robust tournament scene then the top players begin to choke out the rest of the players and attendence levels drop. If you damage the feeder system into top level play (like our qualifiers) then you don't replace the good players that leave the game with new good players. Again the attendence will drop. Personally I would rather be a top player in a game with tens of thousands of players than one with hundreds of players. Sorry if this seems a little ranty. It just bothers me that people put a lot of work into growing the tournament scene, and others just benefit from it. Especially when some of those benefits can drive other people away from the tournament scene. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/07/2006 11:02 AM |
| | So Brad, does this mean you feel that people who have already qualified on ranking shouldn't be allowed to attend a qualifier? | |
I am not gone. | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 06/07/2006 11:12 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
So Brad, does this mean you feel that people who have already qualified on ranking shouldn't be allowed to attend a qualifier?
Except, of course, the way WotC currently runs things, no one has "already" qualified on ranking, since that cut is not made until after the qualifying season. Especially with the high K value, someone in the 20s or 30s who would currently be within the ranking cut zone has to worry about other people zooming past them, so they may feel compelled to qualify "manually".
If the cut came earlier (right before the qualifier season), it would allow for some of the policies people have put forward in this thread to maximize the number of people who attend the Championships.
On the other hand, I can see the argument that the cut should be made after the qualifying season because that is a more accurate indicator of who is currently playing well.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 06/07/2006 11:22 AM |
| Hrm.....
Well, I have to say that I REALLY wanted to participate at the Championships, and as it stands right now, I'm not. So you can see how my feelings might be a bit biased.
We had exactly 32 people at the Mass qualifier. I finished exactly in 8th. Of course, I'm highly confident that I would have won my next game had we had 33 people (which would have forced an extra round)!
I'm also ranked in the top 100, but far enough away from the top that I know I won't get an auto invite (Hmm, 75th last week, but now I'm 82nd....).
Now, next year, or last year, I'd have traveled to NJ or Syracuse to participate in another qualfier. However, I'm very fortuante that after several years of planning, my wife and I are about to renovte, and expand our house. Packing up all my things to make way for the bull dozer is my current priority! So, for me, my only remaining option is the grinder. Well, I won it last year, why not do it again?! Right now, I'm not planning to partiicpate. I have other events are scheduled for that day, and last year, participation in the event was a draining expereince. If I win again, I'd be once more on cloud 9, but If i use a day up, drainmyself (on the first day no less), and then don't qualify....
SO: I think we need to seperate out a few things, prizes, and invites.
The invites seem pretty easy: award the top 4 players at a given event who have not yet qualified an invitation to the Championship. The qualifier is designed to show who the good players are. If you've already qualified, you've already demonstrated that your good. It doesn't mean the people who finished right in back of you aren't good!
If you locked the DCI rankings for the top 25 players before things start, then they can still play, but they don't another invite. If you do the rankings bit after the qualifiers, then it is only those who have already qualified that would be passing down their invites.
Prizes: You should only be able to win 1 of a given prize. If you finsished 2nd at one event (and got passes), and then one the next event, you can keep your airfare, but pass down the passes to the number 3 player.
I too think that WotC should have a goal in mind when it comes to the number of participants at the championship, and do all they can to have that number met at the event. E-mail verification seems workable, particularly if it is published on the Tournament info sheet that people read to find out about the event to begin with!
SO:
I'd pitch:
128 person tourney
Top 25 are qualified at the start of the season
Top 4 each each event who have not yet qualfied get in
E-mail verification sent to each person who has qualified, with 2 weeks turnaround response requested (plenty of time to make a decision about whether your going to make the trip)
Supplemental invites based on DCI ranking (to try to get confirmation of 120 participants)
Grinder top 8
This seems like a fair scenario to get the most highly competitive people playing in the Championship, which should be what it is all about.
Given this write up, I'd likely still no qualify: I finished 8th, and 2 people would have passed down their invites (Chad and Pat Lynch), and with my 82nd ranking, I'd be realy on the edge for getting a supplemental invite.
Pat E
The prizes should be awarded to those who do well. This year that means the top 2 players. | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 06/07/2006 11:54 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by lynchpt
quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
So Brad, does this mean you feel that people who have already qualified on ranking shouldn't be allowed to attend a qualifier?
Except, of course, the way WotC currently runs things, no one has "already" qualified on ranking, since that cut is not made until after the qualifying season. Especially with the high K value, someone in the 20s or 30s who would currently be within the ranking cut zone has to worry about other people zooming past them, so they may feel compelled to qualify "manually".
If the cut came earlier (right before the qualifier season), it would allow for some of the policies people have put forward in this thread to maximize the number of people who attend the Championships.
On the other hand, I can see the argument that the cut should be made after the qualifying season because that is a more accurate indicator of who is currently playing well.
Pat Lynch
Exactly. I hope he doesn't mind but I am going to use Millygoat as an example here. If he hadn't done any qualifiers this year he "probably" would have made it in on top 25. But the chances that others would have jumped up past him with the high-K tournaments were there. He did two quals and had not so great showings at each. He is now firmly out of top 25 range dropping from 22 to 65 (worldwide). | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 06/07/2006 11:58 AM |
| Locking the tournament at X number of participants would be a great start, whatever that X happens to be (128 works for me).
For Wimbeldon, they have X spots, if 3 of the X people invited don't want to play, they go to threee alternates. I think this is the approach that needs to be taken. 8 of the qualified by rank people are international (non-Canadaian)players. I would love to see them all at Gencon (assuming I make it), but that is unlikely to happen. We already know it's unlikely that all of the US/Canadian users that qualify by rank will be at Gencon as well.
The problem is, as others have mentioned, when to lock the rankings? If we lock them pre-qualifiers in order to get responses from 25 people that will attend based on rank, we ignore the people who do well during the qualifiers. But we are more likely to have enough time to lock in 25 players who will attend.
If we lock them in after qualifiers, there is much less time to lock 25 players in based on rank and allow for the spots to trickle down.
But it does reward players who are playing well NOW, as opposed to then.
Kiddoc mentioned something about rating degradation that may be one solution to drop some retired players down the list a bit. Another method might be to skip players who have not played in a sanctioned event in 6 months from the rankings, but leave their points the same. When they play in an event, they show back up in the database. Perhaps even a combination of both ideas.
As far as top 4 invites from qualifiers...people have made some points that have changed the way I look at it. I like the idea of the best competition being at every event. I don't like the idea of scaring away the locals, they are the casual/less-serious players we need to get MORE involved to grow the game. I like the idea of the top 4 spot invites passing down to 5th etc, but I can see how their may be some sore feelings about that (person A played two top 25 players and went 3-3, person B played Joe Sixpacks and went 4-2). That isn't a reason not to do it, but I can see how people could be upset aobut it.
In general, the whole system needs to be looked at, not neccessarily changed, but at least looked at and discussed | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 06/07/2006 11:59 AM |
| I agree with the ideas Pat presented.
IMO, preventing those who've already qualified from playing in further qualifiers is only going to reduce turnout. And personally, I'd be pretty pissed if I was expected to sit on my thumb for two months while everybody else is gearing up for qualifiers. | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 06/07/2006 12:20 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
So Brad, does this mean you feel that people who have already qualified on ranking shouldn't be allowed to attend a qualifier?
I would like to preface that I'm not worried at all about qualifying myself. If I don't make it at Niles I'm 100% sure I can grind in at GenCon. I was even considering asking to head judge instead until I heard Guy was going to do so. So none of this is over me wanting a better shot of making it.
To answer your question on if I think qualified people shouldn't be able to play,In one way yes, in another no. As the current system stands, then yes I don't think they should be able to play in qualifiers. The system isn't strong enough for players who are in on ranking to keep taking slots from others that attend the qualifier. The pass down system isn't robust enough to insure those that get the invites that pass down know about it, still play, can attend, etc. The players that show up at the qualifiers WANT to attend. We know they will do their best to attend if they qualify. On a long term basis, its better for the top 25 to sit out on a qualifier or two and we get more new faces at the championships. Faces that may stick around for years. Playing in your first championship is really cool. I don't think players that love the game should deny that to anyone who can earn it.
On the other hand I understand the desire to want to play in the qualifiers. You may be #24 and worried some one will pass you, you may want to compete in an event of that skill level, or you may want to snag the free airline tickets for winning. All of those are valid reasons to a certain point. I think they can all be solved in a different manner than the current system, or by taking slots away from those that want to qualify by playing in them. At least for this year, anyone in the 20's to 30's should make it from pass down. They don't need to be worried even if they get passed. If you want to compete in more events of that level, you first need to see if your doing all you can to grow the scene yourself. If you just want the airfare, then theres no easy solution. It can be expensive to fly to GenCon so I understand that. A better system may offer travel vouchers to the top 25 or something. Especially if we grew the tournament scene enough for WotC to really take notice. Otherwise maybe help organize a tournament in your area with a cash prize or set of Harbinger and win it. WotC offers the qualifiers as a PR move to help grow the game. It costs them money in hopes to bring more people into the tournament scene. You can be fairly certain the top 25 are already into it.
I know I'm taking a faily high morale standing on the issue, but it means a lot to me. I posted probably the first tournament report ever (4 players WHOOT! I lost to dual umberhulk/orcs in the end), and have put a lot of hours into events. Over the three years I kind of expected a lot of others to flock and do the same. At least among the fanatics on a site like this. Instead the results and effort has been incredibly underwhelming. Even more confusing is the players on Maxminis all WANT more events, but the number of events all together we run don't grow that much! The frustration over that spills over into related topics like this one. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 06/07/2006 12:37 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by lynchpt
Especially with the high K value, someone in the 20s or 30s who would currently be within the ranking cut zone has to worry about other people zooming past them, so they may feel compelled to qualify "manually".
The top 25 can still play in other events to bump their rating a bit more. This would encourage more events. Plus it will be a rare situation where someone jumps into the top 25 and doesn't qualify on invite due to having such a high K-value on the qualifiers. In that case, even if they pass you and bump you 1 down, the slot will pass down. Pretty much everyone who jumps into the top 25 from qualifiers will end up passing that slot down as well.
The only time its a problem is when someone passes you by playing in other events or lots of 5th or 6th place finishes in qualifiers. This would be a rarity right now due to the focus being on the qualifiers. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
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Teach
Sneak
140 Posts
| | 06/07/2006 2:29 PM |
| Well said Bshrug.
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 06/07/2006 3:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
My feeling is that we'd benefit more from a couple other changes than from passing the top 8 at qualifiers:
- Once you place in the top 4 somewhere, no more qualifiers for you. This is a point that has been debated back and forth, and one I've flip-flopped on myself, but I think in the end having people qualify from the tournaments is better than relying on the pass down invites from the top 25 instead, simply because you're more likely to get a GenCon attendee at a qualifer.
- Add more qualifiers rather than invite more people from existing qualifiers. People are spending crazy amounts of money and time to fly around everywhere trying to qualify, and with better coverage you wouldn't need to do that as much. It is just nuts that the SoCal guys don't have their own qualifier, I think. CA can easily sustain two (and remember, we're 6-7 hours apart between the Bay Area and Orange County, there are *plenty* of venues closer than that in other parts of the country) and there are other areas that seem neglected as well. Why not up the total qualifiers to 28 or 30?
Ian, you make some great points.
One good player might go to a tournament, take 2nd, go to another tournament, take 3rd, go to another tournament, take 2nd again, and go to one last tournament and take 4th.
Not only did they NOT get 1st prize anywhere, but they took 3 spots from 3 players who ended up in 5th place.
This happens all the time.
And yeah... why on earth isn't there a qualifier in almost every major city in the country?
Why couldn't there be several qualifiers all over California, two in Pennsylvania, two in Ohio, two in Florida (or one in Miami, one in S. Georgia) etc?
If there is an NFL team in a city, aren't there enough D&D Mini players to get a qualifier there?
Pittsburgh had it's first qualifier this year, and had 32 players.
A bunch of locals didn't even bother to show up because they heard that top players from around the country were coming in, so they figured they didn't have a prayer.
But the truth is, now:
1 - With maps.
2 - With more "easy to use" warbands.
3 - With competitive bands in every faction that all have bad matchups.
It's easier now than ever for an average player to get outplayed, but still win, or for a good player to play well, but still lose.
You can't fall back on tile placement to pull you out of a bad matchup.
You can't fall back on activation control, or the fine points of winning the fodder war, to gain a significant advantage (since there is less fodder).
Random Opponent varience
Map choice varience
Die varience
Last year, there was less Random Opponent varience, because, fewer top bands had "bad" matchups.
Last year, there was no map choice varience at all. Worst case, you placed your tiles second.
Dice are just part of the game.
But the end result of taking some of the skill elements out of the game due to balance and maps is that, if a player isn't willing to spend hundreds of dollars and drive hundreds of miles, they'd better get pretty lucky to qualify on the first try, even if they are a top player who's been a mainstay at the Nationals.
So people that qualify, then go take other spots, really hurts the number of people that are going to be able to compete in the Nationals.
Then, the fact that some hotbeds of DDM still have to drive HOURS to get to a qualifier is not right either.
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Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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forkedmoon
Underboss
1305 Posts
| | 06/07/2006 3:41 PM |
| With the high K vaule of the qualifiers I wonder is it possible to win a qualifier and not end up ranked in top 100? Worse record I can imagine winning a qualifier would be 6-2. Now I am sure that there are multiple scenarios where you could win a qualifier and not be near the top of the rankings but the majority of the winners are most likely relatively highly ranked players.
My point in this is those individuals who are worried about being jumped by others in the standings by people during the qualifier season probably don't have a realistic chance of that happening. The people who jump them in the rankings are those who qualify and therefore their slot will pass down.
If there is a established number for the tournament, say 128, then you would have the qualifiers up to 88 of them plus the top 25 plus the grinders 8 for a total of 121 max under the current system. I fthey wanted to have a set number then it could easily go qualifiers first + 8 for the grinder, add invites for the top ranked to confirm within specified time at the end of the qualifiers to get to 128. Keep invite to get to 128. Then at Gen-Con based on who shows use the satndings from the grinder to allow finishers 9 down to get in based on finish to keep tournament at 128 for any no-shows. That would increase the value of playing in the grinder since a top 8 finish wouldn't be a neccessity to get in. 8 would need to be guaranteed though just in case everyone shows. | |
Champion of Cyclops
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 06/07/2006 4:04 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by forkedmoon
With the high K vaule of the qualifiers I wonder is it possible to win a qualifier and not end up ranked in top 100?
Of course there is. Take me, for example. I think my current DCI ranking puts me somewhere in 150-200 worldwide -- because when I lived in Korea for 2 years, I didn't care much about my DCI ranking since I knew I wouldn't be able to play in any "major" events while there, so I just played wacky/fun stuff in tournaments and lost more matches than I would have if I had been trying to win.
So now, I'm a little more focused on winning and getting my DCI ranking up -- and I need to get top 4 in a qualifier to have a chance at playing at nationals. | |
My H/W list is not current...
Trade Reference List
OLD Trade references (191) | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 06/07/2006 4:46 PM |
| in an event like Niles, a 7-0 record should net someone around (assuming 12 pts, instead of 16 per victory) about 94pts. Could be more, shouldn't be much less. If the winner is someone who has a mediocre DCI record, that person is unlikely to qualify on rank.
A person in the top 100 however, would immediately shoot up to the top 15 or so. | |
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 06/07/2006 6:51 PM |
| @Bshugg
Run more events?
We play twice a month in socal at a tourney I drive 90 minutes to get to.
I play locally every wednesday night (though unsanctioned).
You can also often find me on Vassal.
I organized the (highly successful) Socal open in April, a premier tournament.
I am currently organizing a big tournament in Las Vegas for late January, hoping to attract folks from far and wide.
(Currently soliciting cool names for this two day tournament)
So, I'm not afraid to say I put my money where my mouth is.
I put into this community up front, and also run around behind the scenes helping where I can.
But you see, maybe you won't come to Vegas.
And Brad, say I had my sites targeted on playing YOU.
(ya Stud!)
Not absolutely you specifically - but the best players in the midwest (in general) and meh - sure, lets say you in particular if I could manage it.
So where is the one place I can amost guarrantee that to occur, and get some other kickass games in as well?
NILES.
Now, I'm not saying I'll be there this weekend.
After all, I was just there in March, and you can't travel all the time.
But the point is, I could be, and I'd get to play in a great tourney against folks I don't normally play every two weeks. And I'd finally get to meet Drammatex, who ducked out on me last time....
This, to me, is a good thing. (and see astinex and the rest o the crowd again).
Part of the reason I went to Colorado was because the folks there are so cool. It was a great, high level little tourney, and I loved it. I finished 5th, but could easily have been top 4. Had I been, its possible I would have dropped prior to the crossovers. But maybe I stay in it, in part, to justify my money outlay on all the travel.
My point is simple.
Qualifiers are unique tournaments, with special attendees and prize support. You just can't get that in your own tournees.
(However, that said, I'm hoping that the DDMcon in Vegas may push the envelope. Maybe we give out cash awards there, huh? Maybe we can get a K24. - We'll see how the surveys go as far as attendess expected, etc..)
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Let it be. | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1386 Posts
| | 06/07/2006 6:55 PM |
| | Excuse the derail, but I'd like to know more about the DDMcon in Vegas. | | | |
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 06/07/2006 10:33 PM |
| More to come on this, in another thread, Johnny. I will actually be polling a bit to confirm the format.
(Basically, in its biggest incarnation, it will include 2 seminars, a meal, a constructed event with a consolation subtourney, and your choice of either epic or limited. While we will offer no other gaming opportunities, we understand that there may be other gaming available in the city.) | |
Let it be. | |
| 2004 D&D Miniatures Champion
Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 06/07/2006 11:04 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tried
More to come on this, in another thread, Johnny. I will actually be polling a bit to confirm the format.
(Basically, in its biggest incarnation, it will include 2 seminars, a meal, a constructed event with a consolation subtourney, and your choice of either epic or limited. While we will offer no other gaming opportunities, we understand that there may be other gaming available in the city.)
Dwayne, while I love your loyalty to the DDM community, don't underestimate the draw of the RPG community. WOTC saw the value of this and the DDM line exploded because of the cross appeal.
Personally, I'm just trying to get an invite to Vegas [:D] (I've been to 10 other countries, but I've never been to Vegas, can you believe that?), but I'd be happy to run D&D events there for you--which would cross-promote minis and DDM. I helped organize some Cons in the Northeast that capitalized on the cross-draw of RPG and DDM and they always fared better competitively and economically than the single-exclusion categories. Plus, I have both free WoTC support and exclusive content to offer any Con. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 06/08/2006 8:23 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kiddoc
Plus, I have both free WoTC support and exclusive content to offer any Con.
Well, that's gonna put us other volunteers out of work--can't compete with that. [)]
Seriously though, I've got to find a way into this gig. If someone's going to fly me around and get me into conventions, I'm there. Perhaps winning a tournament would help. [:)]
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 06/08/2006 10:39 AM |
| Dwayne: I suggest you start a thread regarding your VegasCon plans... I assume this is the western US Regional that was discussed some time ago?
I have some thoughts to add, but I don't see the need to distract this thread any further.
Generally, I agree with Brad, that we need more events, and we don't want to scare the minnows out of the water by having the big guns coming in from out of town.
BUT: The qualifiers should be an attractive draw. Sounds the focus needs to be having enough local events for the locals to feel comfortable jumping into the big tank.
I know in NH, there was a store in Somersworth (a city about about 10,000 people...) that was unable to support regular sanctioned events. People were available catch as catch can. That included me... Still, the game didn't die out, but was nurtured by those who liked it (again, including me...). I've demo's DDM more than any other game as a Delegate for WotC to that end.
So, when the New England Regionals started up, I convinced some of the local guys to head on down to that "slightly" larger fish tank. They didn't do so great, but MAN, did they want to! We had 5 people from NH come on down to the Mass Qualifier, and two of us finished in the top 8. Their interest is growing, because it was nurtured by the regional events prior to the qualifier.
Your absolutely right about promoting the game more, but that doesn't mean we should also limit peoples ability to play in a tournament, no matter where it is held, or what the K value may be.
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 06/08/2006 10:47 AM |
| Thanks for the offer, Kiddoc.
I just don't want to hijack this thread, which brings up very important issues.
We could discuss the concept via email if you want. I'm pretty sure we are on some of the same lists.(or PM me on the WoTC boards?).
This idea will be brought up formally on these boards soon enough. Lets just let it buzz around a bit. [:)]
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Let it be. | |
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Urban Druid
Warrior
253 Posts
| | 06/08/2006 11:03 AM |
| On the issue of "sharks and minnows" (isn't that a game that kids play in the swimming pool?), I would like to add that it is a valid point, because I can definitely feel its effects myself. There is virtually no local scene where I live; this is not out of a lack of effort so much as, I think, genuinely low interest. Because of this, the only DDM I ever really get to play is with the one other local who skirmishes competitively and on VASSAL (God bless the Internet...!!).
I've been making plans for some time now to attend the Qualifier in Buford, GA, but the more competitive players I hear about traveling long distances to compete, the more my interest dwindles. The field is swiftly becoming too tough for a casual player like me to even have a chance, so what's the point? I can skirmish more-or-less whenever I want on VASSAL; the entire reason I wanted to attend the Qualifier was to fulfill my dream of going to GenCon, which I won't be able to do unless I have a valid "excuse."
I have no negative feelings whatsoever toward the individual players traveling to be part of this tournament; they are fully within their rights to do as they're doing and are really aiming for nothing more than to have fun and support the game that they love. It's just... frustrating, I suppose, to have such an emotional investment on the line and watch your odds continue to lengthen with every passing day.
I just don't know if it's worth the two-hour drive anymore...
*Edited for grammar; why can't I just type it right the first time? [:p]* | |
*This post was recorded before a live studio audience* | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 06/08/2006 11:05 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15
Generally, I agree with Brad, that we need more events, and we don't want to scare the minnows out of the water by having the big guns coming in from out of town.
This has been a problem, I think. I live in an area of several rural counties, an hour's drive from Kalamazoo, South Bend, Battle Creek, and a bit more to Ft. Wayne. All of these towns have gaming shops, and a couple of them have regular gaming events (and Kalamazoo has, for a long time, had brilliant events, but for some reason it seems to be falling off (any idea why Brad?)). In my area, away from all these towns, I have attracted about 25 players (not bad for low population). At any given event that I run, I get about 15. I have tried and tried to get them to go to the sanctioned events--and I've gotten a few of them to show at pre-releases. But, most of them are too timid to play in the qualifiers. Their attitude tends to be something along the lines of "if I'm gonna get creamed, I'd rather save the gas money and the day, and do something else instead." I mean, it's not easy to summon up the time, energy and funds to drive to Chicago or Detroit or Columbus (or Pittsburg or St. Louis) just to play minis. Add in the price of a Hotel, and I'd say you drive away at least 50% of the people who might be interested.quote:
BUT: The qualifiers should be an attractive draw. Sounds the focus needs to be having enough local events for the locals to feel comfortable jumping into the big tank.
Right. And it's got to be hard on Ian and the others who put this stuff together. I've never had the responsibility of trying to put together anything more than a single event, never mind a whole tournament season. No matter what they do, they'll get some complaints. It's simply not possible to make everybody happy. But, getting more people into the stores (or wherever the events are held), and getting more people willing to drive to a tournament, has got to be some kind of priority. Would having the season start earlier help?quote:
Your absolutely right about promoting the game more, but that doesn't mean we should also limit peoples ability to play in a tournament, no matter where it is held, or what the K value may be.
Perhaps having more Constructed events is a way to go. I know a lot of you folks are lucky, you have local scenes that flourish, and the players are accustomed to playing somebody other than their little brother, or the neighbor kid. Around here, just getting to a small event requires an hour's drive for most players. I know that my closest game store has started every-other-biweekly events, rotating between DDM and SWM. Maybe I can get some more of my locals to commit to that.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 06/08/2006 11:17 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Urban Druid
I've been making plans for some time now to attend the Qualifier in Buford, GA, but the more competitive players I hear about traveling long distances to compete, the more my interest dwindles. The field is swiftly becoming too tough for a casual player like me to even have a chance, so what's the point?...I have no negative feelings whatsoever toward the individual players traveling to be part of this tournament; they are fully within their rights to do as they're doing and are really aiming for nothing more than to have fun and support the game that they love. It's just... frustrating, I suppose, to have such an emotional investment on the line and watch your odds continue to lengthen with every passing day....I just don't know if it's worth the two-hour drive anymore...
You must have posted as I was typing my reply to Pat. This is exactly the kind of feeling that almost all of my local players have. Heck, I've considered not going to Niles for the same reason. I figure if I finish in 5th place enough times, maybe my skill will improve though. [:)]
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/08/2006 11:27 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Urban Druid
I have no negative feelings whatsoever toward the individual players traveling to be part of this tournament; they are fully within their rights to do as they're doing and are really aiming for nothing more than to have fun and support the game that they love. It's just... frustrating, I suppose, to have such an emotional investment on the line and watch your odds continue to lengthen with every passing day.
I just don't know if it's worth the two-hour drive anymore...
I think you are underestimating your skill level. I've played against you enough, and watched you enough to know that you are good enough to be competitive at a qualifier. You beat me the first time we played against each other, after all, and we've had several close matches since then. This is probably sheer arrogance talking, but I doubt there are going to be many players there that are that much better than I am. If you can beat and have close games against me, what makes you think you won't be able to qualify? | |
I am not gone. | |
| 2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 06/08/2006 11:40 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
I know a lot of you folks are lucky, you have local scenes that flourish, and the players are accustomed to playing somebody other than their little brother, or the neighbor kid. Around here, just getting to a small event requires an hour's drive for most players.
For the record, it's about a 40-mile drive from my house to Dear Mr. Fantazy -- which, with traffic, takes me an hour more often than not. Tried drives 90 minutes, with Sven and DrX. Dagni I think has a 40-50 minute drive as well. So the "local" scene in SoCal encompasses nearly a 100-mile radius from the store we play at. It's not like we all live 5 minutes from the store. [:)]
But, I do think sometimes the hard competition scares off more casual players. I mean, how many new people have we had come by for a month or two, then stop coming? Yes, they sometimes still show up for prereleases, but not for the twice-monthly tournaments. I can name four people like this without taking any time to think, and I'm sure several more if I tried.
Not sure what the solution is really, these are just some observations. | |
Read my championship tournament report.
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alepulp
Underboss
1540 Posts
Manchester, England
| | 06/08/2006 11:42 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tried
More to come on this, in another thread, Johnny. I will actually be polling a bit to confirm the format.
(Basically, in its biggest incarnation, it will include 2 seminars, a meal, a constructed event with a consolation subtourney, and your choice of either epic or limited. While we will offer no other gaming opportunities, we understand that there may be other gaming available in the city.)
Hmmm - that format sounds VERY familiarΖD] | |
One of these days WoTC will update their tournament page when I'm in the top 5... they never seem to do when I'm in that bracket :(
My Collection My DDM Website And My Trade Refs Be a part of the UK DDM Forum
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 06/08/2006 12:02 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
quote:
Originally posted by Urban Druid
I have no negative feelings whatsoever toward the individual players traveling to be part of this tournament; they are fully within their rights to do as they're doing and are really aiming for nothing more than to have fun and support the game that they love. It's just... frustrating, I suppose, to have such an emotional investment on the line and watch your odds continue to lengthen with every passing day.
I just don't know if it's worth the two-hour drive anymore...
I think you are underestimating your skill level. I've played against you enough, and watched you enough to know that you are good enough to be competitive at a qualifier. You beat me the first time we played against each other, after all, and we've had several close matches since then. This is probably sheer arrogance talking, but I doubt there are going to be many players there that are that much better than I am. If you can beat and have close games against me, what makes you think you won't be able to qualify?
I'll echo what Jesse said. Don't underestimate yourself. And this goes for anybody. I doubt that rhane and Doninator woke up on the morning of the Colorado qualifier thinking that they would beat top 8 players from last year's championship, but they did it. You never know what you can do until you try! | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
|
| 06/08/2006 12:08 PM |
| | Yeah, I sometimes worry about that myself. I've won every sanctioned constructed tournament that we have had here since January (and all but one unsanctioned tournament.) I can't help but wonder if it would be better for the scene if I just sat out and judged local events or if I played less competitive bands than I have recently. (Of course that doesn't help me with my 1900 by the end of the year goal. [:P]) | |
I am not gone. | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 06/08/2006 12:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Yeah, I sometimes worry about that myself. I've won every sanctioned constructed tournament that we have had here since January (and all but one unsanctioned tournament.) I can't help but wonder if it would be better for the scene if I just sat out and judged local events or if I played less competitive bands than I have recently. (Of course that doesn't help me with my 1900 by the end of the year goal. [:P])
The answer may be to have more informal tournaments, that aren't sanctioned. Those who care deeply about their rating aren't going to bring bad warband to a sanctioned event. But if it wasn't sanctioned, it might encourage those casual players to play, and get better, so that hte next sanctioned event has a bit more competition.
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 06/08/2006 12:33 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Felagund
quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
quote:
Originally posted by Urban Druid
I have no negative feelings whatsoever toward the individual players traveling to be part of this tournament; they are fully within their rights to do as they're doing and are really aiming for nothing more than to have fun and support the game that they love. It's just... frustrating, I suppose, to have such an emotional investment on the line and watch your odds continue to lengthen with every passing day.
I just don't know if it's worth the two-hour drive anymore...
I think you are underestimating your skill level. I've played against you enough, and watched you enough to know that you are good enough to be competitive at a qualifier. You beat me the first time we played against each other, after all, and we've had several close matches since then. This is probably sheer arrogance talking, but I doubt there are going to be many players there that are that much better than I am. If you can beat and have close games against me, what makes you think you won't be able to qualify?
I'll echo what Jesse said. Don't underestimate yourself. And this goes for anybody. I doubt that rhane and Doninator woke up on the morning of the Colorado qualifier thinking that they would beat top 8 players from last year's championship, but they did it. You never know what you can do until you try!
I'll echo in with both what doubtofbuddha and Felagund said. [:)]
I think that I've only played against you once, maybe twice, and you are definately skilled enough to compete. The other 2/3 of the equation, well practiced with a good warband and rolling of the dice come next. The first you have complete control over - just practice baby! [:D] And the second, well do the best you can do to minimize its effect. Hey, even the best players roll poorly once in a while [:0] (except for doubtofbuddha, who has paid off the dice god [)]).
So get that warband together and go play in a qualifier! [^]
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Urban Druid
Warrior
253 Posts
| | 06/08/2006 12:35 PM |
| Doubt, Felagund, (EDIT: and Sirohk, who was posting while I was)thanks for the words of encouragement. I suppose there's really no reason not to even give it a shot, is there? [:)]
quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
You beat me the first time we played against each other, after all...
I seem to remember back-to-back critical hits from my Wemic having something to do with that... [:p][)] | |
*This post was recorded before a live studio audience* | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1386 Posts
| | 06/08/2006 12:47 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15
The answer may be to have more informal tournaments, that aren't sanctioned. Those who care deeply about their rating aren't going to bring bad warband to a sanctioned event. But if it wasn't sanctioned, it might encourage those casual players to play, and get better, so that hte next sanctioned event has a bit more competition.
Our FLGS ran an eight-week DDM league. It was unsanctioned, but first prize was a $100 gift certificate. It was very interesting in that players skirmished in order to conrol territories, and some territories offered special benefits (e.g. a magic item). Also, the matches had no time limits. So, it was a great test for experienced players as well as newer ones. | | | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 06/08/2006 12:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by johnny.quest
quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15
The answer may be to have more informal tournaments, that aren't sanctioned. Those who care deeply about their rating aren't going to bring bad warband to a sanctioned event. But if it wasn't sanctioned, it might encourage those casual players to play, and get better, so that hte next sanctioned event has a bit more competition.
Our FLGS ran an eight-week DDM league. It was unsanctioned, but first prize was a $100 gift certificate. It was very interesting in that players skirmished in order to conrol territories, and some territories offered special benefits (e.g. a magic item). Also, the matches had no time limits. So, it was a great test for experienced players as well as newer ones.
Of course, as I stew on this, i realize that of course, this runs counter to Brad's point, which is that we need to raise the number of sanctioend events that are getting filed with WotC, so they see the demand... Hrm... Not sure what the answer is. [:(]
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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Jerry_Damage01
Sneak
146 Posts
| | 06/08/2006 1:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by johnny.quest
Our FLGS ran an eight-week DDM league. It was unsanctioned, but first prize was a $100 gift certificate. It was very interesting in that players skirmished in order to conrol territories, and some territories offered special benefits (e.g. a magic item). Also, the matches had no time limits. So, it was a great test for experienced players as well as newer ones.
We do something similar. We run 2 weekly tournaments, one on Tuesdays and one on Saturdays. Tuesdays are our unsanctioned League where we can get creative and things and it doesn't hurt our DCI rankings. Saturdays are our sanctioned tournies. What's funny is that our League tournies almost always get more people than our Saturday tournies. Once the pressure's off I think it makes alot of difference. | |
Champion of the Aspect of Damage
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