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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
    
 | | 05/15/2006 12:11 PM |
| It is hard to find a judge for a qualifier. I know even though the MN store is throwing some thank yous my way for judging, I still almost said no. I'd like to qualify again. Most really good players want to qualify. You cannot judge and play, so, I'm probably driving to Niles now to try to qualify. That is a pain the @#$ for me and my family.
OTOH, is is inexcusable to have a judget that doesn't know the rules at all. I'm not an expert, I'll probably need to ask 1 or 2 questions of some of the better rules lawyers at the qualifier (probably bodyguard related, though I'm brushing up on that piece this week), but I know the rules well enough to judge.
This raises the eternal question, how do they really choose these locations? I know I sent Ian an e-mail about the MN locations (now moot since the two competing stores are now/soon-to-be owned by the same guy) and he said if they got "enough" feedback they'd look into it. I strongly suggest that we all consider this as our major quest at Gen Con - getting Ian and DCI to work with the community on judges and locations (at least when we aren't bugging Shoe for the mini we all "need"). | |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
Champion of Juiblex | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 05/15/2006 12:13 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Faragdar the Wise
That doesn't make any sense to me. There aren't that many qualifiers. There should be plenty of good judges out there willing to handle these relatively few events. In fact, I'll bet there are a ton of willing, qualified judges (like me) who just don't have a local qualifier. WotC is dropping the ball if they're selecting qualifier venues that can't produce a decent judge. And I can't understand how a tournament organizer who probably runs tons of events (or else how did he get to host a qualifier) can't find a decent judge.
Ironically, before the event started, I was talking to Millygoat and Benimoto and some others. We were wondering who the judge was, lamenting that Brad wasn't there, etc. I said (half-heartedly, though now I wish it was for real) "Heck, I'd drop out and judge for the right price." We laughed, there was some nodding of heads, the usual pre-tournament chattiness and jitteriness.
If only...
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Zoons
Underboss
1067 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 12:36 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Faragdar the Wise
qualified judges (like me)
I'm not implying you're not competent or capable, but what do you mean by qualified. There is no (to the best of my knowledge) qualification process. ANYONE can claim to be a qualified judge. The way the system is organized right now...
You, the guy who judged Vrek's qualifier, me, my mom, and my 8 year old all can claim to be just as qualified. That's why the system NEEDs to be changed.
Once again, I've never met you and don't have any reason to doubt your competence, but you've just stated the problem with the system. | |
Never teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time and it annoys the pig.
Champion of the Blink Dog. | |
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Shadow_Fox
Underboss
1751 Posts
Litchfield, MN
| | 05/15/2006 12:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zoons
quote:
Originally posted by Faragdar the Wise
qualified judges (like me)
I'm not implying you're not competent or capable, but what do you mean by qualified. There is no (to the best of my knowledge) qualification process. ANYONE can claim to be a qualified judge. The way the system is organized right now...
You, the guy who judged Vrek's qualifier, me, my mom, and my 8 year old all can claim to be just as qualified. That's why the system NEEDs to be changed.
Once again, I've never met you and don't have any reason to doubt your competence, but you've just stated the problem with the system.
I dont know how long you have been around Maxminis but Faragdar lives up to his screen name. He is one of the most versed, rules competent people in the community and I would gladly take him as my judge as would any other venue Im sure. | |
Email | Ebay Feedback Page | Maxminis Referance Thread | Have/Want List | |
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millygoat
Warrior
297 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 1:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
Ironically, before the event started, I was talking to Millygoat and Benimoto and some others. We were wondering who the judge was, lamenting that Brad wasn't there, etc. I said (half-heartedly, though now I wish it was for real) "Heck, I'd drop out and judge for the right price." We laughed, there was some nodding of heads, the usual pre-tournament chattiness and jitteriness.
If only...
Dave
I think there are a few lessons we can all take from this. First, you need to make sure the judge is on the bleeding edge of the rules when it comes to a qualifier level situation. Both the rules for D&D minis as they are at the day of the tourney, as well as the normal DCI floor-rules to handle things like stalling, slow play, ect.
Secondly, and equally important in my mind is that we should probably as a community start work on a "living rulebook". An easily printable document which clarifies the rules as they are at any given time, incorporates known misconceptions, ect. If we could incorporate the DCI rules, the rulebook, the clarifications Guy makes, as well as a codification of our own personal experiences with things that come up into a handy-dandy judge refreance that either the judge or the players could bring, then even if we had an inexperienced judge for a round hopefully the correct rulings would prevail. As it is, an inexperienced or unprepared judge will likely wind up just flipping through the rulebook alone, which often will not generate the correct result.
Anyhow, those are my rambling thoughts. Like the others, I find myself wishing I had volunteered in the morning to judge, or at the very least not left when we did so as to maybe have been able to speak up during the debacle. Hindsight is 20/20, and I suppose it reinforces the message to the rest of the qualifiers to make certain our ducks are in a row.
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Jason Kean
Champion of the Entropic Reaper
Strong Advocate of the Lich Necromancer (Viva Lichdom!)
Winter Fantasy Vintage Winner (go go umber-hulk pull) | |
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EldritchSoul
Warrior
324 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 1:08 PM |
| | what he's saying though, shadowfox, i believe, is that faragdar has passed the same qualification process as the MI judge and his 8 year old son and his mother, which is true. his post was not an indictment on faragdar's post or his competency with the rules, merely an affirmation of the need for a certification process. | |
Champion of Dracotaur- Vindicated!
T32 | |
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Sulaco
Underboss
1605 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 1:10 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sirohk
At the Toronto Qualifier we had very good judges who were available for every on going match and made quick calls when called upon.
There were? Damn, I didn't even know we had judges. I thought it was just Wayne (the TO).
Crud. [:(] | |
Champion of the Gelatinous Cube. Nemesis of Gnomes and Dinosaurs.
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. ~ Terry Pratchett | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 05/15/2006 1:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by millygoat
I think there are a few lessons we can all take from this. First, you need to make sure the judge is on the bleeding edge of the rules when it comes to a qualifier level situation. Both the rules for D&D minis as they are at the day of the tourney, as well as the normal DCI floor-rules to handle things like stalling, slow play, ect.
Ah the bleeding edge. [:)] Thanks for posting, since you were there, it's nice to see your response.quote:
Secondly, and equally important in my mind is that we should probably as a community start work on a "living rulebook". An easily printable document which clarifies the rules as they are at any given time, incorporates known misconceptions, ect. If we could incorporate the DCI rules, the rulebook, the clarifications Guy makes, as well as a codification of our own personal experiences with things that come up into a handy-dandy judge refreance that either the judge or the players could bring, then even if we had an inexperienced judge for a round hopefully the correct rulings would prevail. As it is, an inexperienced or unprepared judge will likely wind up just flipping through the rulebook alone, which often will not generate the correct result.
Excellent suggestion. I'd be happy to be part of this project. I think, if he's willing, Balduran I, should be in on it too, as he's the Knowledge Arcana minis editor and something like this could make interesting material for a future issue (I'll drop him a line about it).quote:
Anyhow, those are my rambling thoughts. Like the others, I find myself wishing I had volunteered in the morning to judge, or at the very least not left when we did so as to maybe have been able to speak up during the debacle. Hindsight is 20/20, and I suppose it reinforces the message to the rest of the qualifiers to make certain our ducks are in a row.
Yep. I don't intend to leave events early anymore, if I'm not faring well, unless I know that I'm leaving the other players in good hands.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Shivan Darkeyes
Warrior
266 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 1:32 PM |
| This is a no brainer to me... DDM needs a judge certification process. I brought this issue up last year, and the year before, but no one ever paid me any heed. Everyone just said "Oh the community will be able to police the judging" or "Oh just bring the rules and explain it to the judge yourself." Things like this only happen as others in this thread have said, because Wizards has no process for judges. Wizards KNOWS a process for certifying judges is important because they do it both for MAGIC and for DREAMBLADE. Why does DDM get no love here? Regardless of the "blame game" it doesn't matter if it is the TO's fault, the judge's fault, V's son's opponent's fault, Wizard's fault, Ian's fault, or the DCI's fault. What matters is what can be done to fix the process: the solution is simple: have a certification program. There is almost no opportunity cost to implementing a program like this on Wizard's end. I think someone from Wizard's should give an explanation of why there isn't a program i.e. what is lost by having such a program, if they aren't going to implement one.
Remember, things like "the players can police themselves" and "everyone should just know the rules" are simply defense. They are mitigating factors that, if true, can reduce the need for a certification program. These factors are not an offensive reason or a "cost" for having such a program. Especially when the program is just used at upper level tournaments.
If the issue is cost, I know that I would be willing to pay $2-3 extra per qualifier I attend to have competent judging... I bet most players would too.
If the issue is the "sense of community" of DDM might be fractured if we had certified judges, I think the opposite would actually be true. I think having a lack of a judge actually inspires more ill-will as things like what happened to V's son and the other player become more prevalent increasing the ill feelings in the community.
That’s all I have to say... I hope to see a judge program soon.
Oh ya, and while a Maxmini's program will be great and I am 100% for it: there is literally nothing besides player satisfaction that would motivate a TO to go out of his or her way to get one of these judges, especially if the TO (like many TOs) are not 100% understanding of what the DDM community is and how it operates. We need something official from Wizards to solve this problem.
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13th Place at the 2005 DDM Championship in GenCon | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 1:34 PM |
| | The Living Document idea is very very good. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 1:50 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
I got to say I agree on this one here. I was going to say something but decided it wasn't my place and to let it slide, but I've got follower tendencies so now that its broken I will echo the sentiments of Dagni.
I guess I wonder why YOU would think this? | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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Teach
Sneak
140 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 1:51 PM |
| I like the idea of a living rulebook, but the problem with a "living rulebook" is that unless it was sanctioned by WotC, would not be acceptable for DCI tournaments. If there was a ruling in it that seems contradictory (as some clarifications can be), it is better if it is clear where the clarification is coming from so there is no discrepancies on why a judge rules the way he does.
Second, I think what Gunthar is saying is that ultimately DDM is just a game. A great one, with a small but active community, but still a game. I think some of us (myself included) are surprised at how seriously some people take the game. And I know I can get annoyed by how serious some people take a game or a tournament that I'm playing in for fun. But that's for me to deal with, and not a critique of the "top" players. There is a definitely a place in DDM for people like DoubtofBuddha and Dagni and others and I would never suggest that they should change, because they get (at least part of) their enjoyment out of the competitive nature of tournament play. That is how they have fun with DDM, and that's what it is all about, having fun.
However, the increasingly competitive nature of DDM is going to increase the amount of cheating and accusations of cheating. Most of us will never really know if there was cheating at the MI event, but it is very likely that in the future, there will be clearcut examples of cheating in DDM and I hope that there will be safeguards in place by that time so we as players know exactly what our recourse is, and that everyone from the guy playing in his first tournament to the seasoned veteran have a great time playing DDM.
Which is really what it's all about.
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 1:54 PM |
| There is very little incentive to make, maintain, or partake in a judge program.
We may need it, but its got a lot of hurdles... | |
Let it be. | |
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EldritchSoul
Warrior
324 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 2:10 PM |
| | perhaps instead of a living rulebook, we could do a compiled rulings document, which could be laid out in a more structured way to allow for ease of use | |
Champion of Dracotaur- Vindicated!
T32 | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 05/15/2006 3:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Shivan Darkeyes
This is a no brainer to me... DDM needs a judge certification process. I brought this issue up last year, and the year before, but no one ever paid me any heed. Everyone just said "Oh the community will be able to police the judging" or "Oh just bring the rules and explain it to the judge yourself." Things like this only happen as others in this thread have said, because Wizards has no process for judges. Wizards KNOWS a process for certifying judges is important because they do it both for MAGIC and for DREAMBLADE. Why does DDM get no love here? Regardless of the "blame game" it doesn't matter if it is the TO's fault, the judge's fault, V's son's opponent's fault, Wizard's fault, Ian's fault, or the DCI's fault. What matters is what can be done to fix the process: the solution is simple: have a certification program. There is almost no opportunity cost to implementing a program like this on Wizard's end. I think someone from Wizard's should give an explanation of why there isn't a program i.e. what is lost by having such a program, if they aren't going to implement one.
Remember, things like "the players can police themselves" and "everyone should just know the rules" are simply defense. They are mitigating factors that, if true, can reduce the need for a certification program. These factors are not an offensive reason or a "cost" for having such a program. Especially when the program is just used at upper level tournaments.
I just posted on my other thread that the TO called me back. We had a very good talk. One of the things he brought up was how upset he was that there simply isn't a way for TOs to get judges for things like this.quote:
If the issue is cost, I know that I would be willing to pay $2-3 extra per qualifier I attend to have competent judging... I bet most players would too.
Easily worth a few extra bucks.quote:
If the issue is the "sense of community" of DDM might be fractured if we had certified judges, I think the opposite would actually be true. I think having a lack of a judge actually inspires more ill-will as things like what happened to V's son and the other player become more prevalent increasing the ill feelings in the community.
I agree 100%. You're dead on with this point. Alex can think for himself, but he understands what authority means at things like this. When the judged ruled against him, he knew that the judge was wrong, but he just sucked it up and finished the match. If rule #0 is: the judge is always right, then that's that. If we, as players, had a strong reason to believe that rule #0 was going to work with great effectiveness, we'd love it.quote:
That’s all I have to say... I hope to see a judge program soon.
Oh ya, and while a Maxmini's program will be great and I am 100% for it: there is literally nothing besides player satisfaction that would motivate a TO to go out of his or her way to get one of these judges, especially if the TO (like many TOs) are not 100% understanding of what the DDM community is and how it operates. We need something official from Wizards to solve this problem.
Richard (the TO at the site where this happened), said something very similar. He said he'd do it because he likes gamers and likes the generally positive atmosphere, and courteous players that are there. He likes the sportsmanship. (And the good business probably doesn't hurt.) He admitted that there's no way he can know all the games, and all the rules of the games, and he relies on things like the Magic judges database to keep things running smoothly. If Wizards doesn't have a judging system for DDM, he'd be happy to see a player-created, player-supported one.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Slade7170
Sneak
123 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 3:04 PM |
| For those, likely few, of you that do not know; Guy Fullerton's (Offical DDM Net Rep) page lays out the official clarifications already in great style. Though with the disclaimer that the rulings can in fact be edited or even overturned by R&D until they make it into the Official FAQ and/or Errata.
http://homepage.mac.com/guyf/DDM/Clarifications.html
Guy's page also points to the Wizards site Official DDM FAQ and DDM Errata pages.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mi/20031023x
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mi/20031030x
Unfortunately for us, the offical FAQ and Errata have not been updated since May 26th, 2005. It would be good to have updated copies of those in hand, with Qualifiers in progress (before would have been better of course) or at least by Gencon Indy.
No offense to Guy (Who is not only a great guy, but a DDM knowledge Deity!) but a tournament organizer or judge may very well not know who he is. They can hardly argue with the FAQ and Errata directly from the Wizards site, they might argue with homepage.mac.com.
Guy's site is invaluable, and as official as they come, however none of his rulings have had that final vetting. Even more so, the latest floor rules (March 2006) for DDM specifically state:
804. Stat Card Interpretations Stat cards are interpreted using the official DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Miniatures Game Rules and Official Errata. Errata can be found at www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mini/tournaments
All that combines to give too much grey area in judging (in my opinion). We (in my "local" scene) always keep up with Guy's rulings and integrate them into our tournaments locally. However, there is no offical requirement to do so. A tourney where they ignore Guy's rulings (if they even know they exist) is..technically... just as legal as one otherwise. Albeit, far more likely to cause dissention against those community aware players vs. those that are not.
A few things could easily fix this:
1. Wizards - Give Guy a restricted blog on www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mini/tournaments he can copy and paste things from his own page or whatever. Only he (or a Wizards Site Admin and the like) could adjust it.
2. TO's and Judges - If you wish to use them... have a complete copy of Guy's rulings printed out and available for all players at your store to look over. As well as DDM floor rules and offical FAQ and Errata.
3. Wizards - Update those crucial documents (FAQ and Errata) before or as soon as a new set comes out. Three times a year. Update DDM Floor rules as necessary. That is already done and we are covered...save for upcoming Fantastic location maps.. until November. Combined with Guy's rulings on the offical page, the DDM tournaments page becomes the aforementioned living document(s).
4. Maxmini's and Wizards board experienced players who want to help the community as a whole..especially if you are qualified already or will autoqualify (and don't need or want invites for some reason) - Contact the hosting venues that you are close enough to reach. Contact info is easily available. See if they need qualified, experienced skilled DDM judges for the big events. Even if you do not get to play, you get the birds eye view for critical analysis and will likely be watching players you may face at GenCon.
All just my opinion, and most of it so common sense that I hesitate to even post this, but wanted to make sure it got out there.
Have a great day!
Slade7170
edit: To take out blank spaces between post and quote.
quote:
Originally posted by EldritchSoul
perhaps instead of a living rulebook, we could do a compiled rulings document, which could be laid out in a more structured way to allow for ease of use
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 3:08 PM |
| What Guy really needs for his site is a WotC approval of some sort. Something that would state that his qualifications are appproved by the DDM R&D team, etc. Might sound silly but a note of some sort from WotC stating that they are official rulings to make sure that those unknowledged of who he is can feel like the rulings are official.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
******************************************************************************************************************************************************
Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 3:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gunthar
quote:
Originally posted by Dagni
quote:
Originally posted by Gunthar
I mean look around, everyone is trying to get an edge. Secret warbands, collusion, etc. has become the norm. When guys touted and touting themselves as "top players" are doing things that many consider "pushing the envelope" of fairness (in the minds of many others), ...
In my opinion, the above is, how do you say, hitting below the belt. It's just not an appropriate statement for this topic, seems to me.
One: of course there's nothing wrong with keeping quiet about your warband. The way you put it, whether intentionally or not, basically insinuates that it's somehow comparable to, or on the level of, collusion or cheating.
Two: I would guess that the collusion and "pushing the envelope" you're talking about is directly referring to the SoCal group in particular. I could be wrong. Whoever or whatever you ARE referring to, that's SO another topic, and you're throwing allegations out there without even naming the allegations and allowing the other party to defend themselves!!
The SoCal crew, to my knowledge, hasn't done anything that could remotely be considered collusion.
Again, if you and "many others" think that some people are doing things that are "pushing the envelope" of fairness, do those people the courtesy of saying so directly, not submerged in a rant in a seperate (though related) topic.
Thank you.
- Dagni
The trends I talked about are certainly NOT limited to the SoCal group, nor did I say anywhere that I agreed with "playing the judge". We had collusion accusations at the Minnesota Qualifier last year too. That said, remember, there were a number of people upset when, for example, Jesse didn't report (or let be reported) which warband he played in a tournament a couple of weeks ago. Yet many supposedly top players from around the country work together on warband construction, it can look like collusion or a clique to make sure they stay on top and keep others "down". Again, not my view, but I can certainly see how someone could feel that way as some posted about it. While I could care less about that aspect, I'm not everyone. As mentioned, there appears to be some bitterness by a number of people about that practice. If they feel this is not right then maybe they would justify "playing the judge" as an opportunity to "even the field". Not right, in my opinion, but not my choice to tell them they can't feel a certain way.
Sorry to hijack the thread Dave, this is just an issue I've worried about for a while and this was a chance to bring it up.
Ok, let me see if I get this straight. You're saying that someone might cheat because he feels that other players are doing inappropriate things as well, such as hiding their band and 'colluding' with top players?! You don't share the opinion, but think that opinion could instigate someone to cheat?
Wow. Ok, I guess maybe I understand what you were talking about now. Maybe someone can *justify* cheating by that method to salve his own conscience, but other than that, I couldn't disagree with your premise more.
Just to let you know, that's not how I took your words in your original post at all, and I had to reread this one a couple of times before I got that meaning out of it. It sounded - to me, at least - a LOT more like you were saying that if top players are willing to do underhanded activity A and B, can we be surprised if some players are willing to go so far as underhanded activity C? In other words, if most people are willing to do slightly dirty stuff, of course a few will go even farther. If I'm reading it correctly now, you're actually saying that if some people *think* that top players are doing underhanded activity A and B, is it any surprise that a few of these misguided individuals do underhanded activity C?
To get back to what I said to you originally, I hope you realize that saying "if top players are willing to do underhanded activity A and B, can we be surprised if some players are willing to go so far as underhanded activity C?" is inappropriate, because you allege that people are doing things that the community is or might find inappropriate, without specifically calling out either the activity nor the person, thus not allowing the person to defend himself. Indeed, you allege that it's common knowledge and an opinion shared by many. These things I disagree with. More and more, I especially disagree with the notion that many people think anything bad about Jesse (for not sharing his warband) or other top players.
quote:
Originally posted by Gunthar
quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
I got to say I agree on this one here. I was going to say something but decided it wasn't my place and to let it slide, but I've got follower tendencies so now that its broken I will echo the sentiments of Dagni.
I guess I wonder why YOU would think this?
Argh! Whether fairly or unfairly, whether intentionally or unintentionally, this comes across as further insinuations, this time directed at AesophDarkfable.
If intentionally, stop. That was the point of my first post.
If unintentionally, try very hard to stop, write a little more, and be just a little bit clearer.
To respond to the question, just maybe he was as offended as I was that you would insinuate something against unnamed "top players" as if they were doing anything wrong, and do it without actually addressing the players or the acts of supposed wrongdoing. I think that any long-time reader of this forum could've objected to what you wrote as easily as I or Aesoph, that's why I responded as I did.
I can't say for sure that what you did was inappropriate. All I can say is that in my opinion it was. Feel free to argue with that if you wish. But if other people chime in and say they also think it's inappropriate, it probably won't be because of a special reason that THAT person agrees with me. In fact, it sounds like the only reason Aesoph didn't immediately respond to your comment was because it did NOT relate to him directly in any way.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 3:23 PM |
| | I'd be happy if the DCI would sent out info to the TO's that Guy's site is officially recognized. I know WotC won't link to his site, but the DCI is "seperate" as far as I know. They should be able to inform TO's of other official rulings. | |
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 3:29 PM |
| | It seems that between Gunthar's comments and Shadow_Fox's insinuations about browbeating on the part of top players, that there seems to be some level of ill-will against high profile players. I wonder why? | |
I am not gone. | |
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Chairman7w
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 3:31 PM |
| What really sucks in this case, is that the accused did something the regular old rulebook states cannot be done.
You don't need a certified Judge to see that. Just someone that can read.
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Dr. Simon: A phrase that's encoded in her brain, that makes her fall asleep. If I speak the words, "Eta...
Jayne: Well don't say it!
Zoë: It only works on her, Jayne. | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 3:35 PM |
| For the record, I spoke with Ian about a judging program at WF. Its apparently in the works. I, for one, will be elbowing my way to the front of the line for this. And for the record, Im one of the players who would be willing to judge / co-judge a qualifier at this point. Im not even looking for compensation. Im looking for a fair and balanced judging system that eliminates concerns like this.
quote:
ACK! I've been GuyF'd!
You called?
Lastly, Im appalled that judging at a qualifier would be so poorly handled. Its kind of disheartening really. I, as a member of the DDM community, feel bad that you were subjected to this level of incompetance. I have been called a geek for my 3 ring binder with tabbed sections for the floor rules, current FAQ, Guys Clarifications, Melee Reach vs Cover and some other section i never need.. but at the VERY least every player should have a copy of the current manual that has all the base rules for simple things like "large bases movign around corners". Additionally, never hesitate to disagree with a ruling and force a "time out" til you can find a decision one way or another in the rules. I have judged events and never take offense - we are human and everyone screws up. Plus, Im not sure everyone knows every rule off the top of their head. The shining example of this was when GuyF was judging events at SoCal and I had a question. He first asked for the creatures card, then looked in the rulebook. If GuyF can check his answers, everyone can. Its not a macho thing to know all the rules by heart.
And I fully support Jesse's positoin on band creation. I am not going to post what band Im going to play at a tourney because Im not interested in a bunch of people bringing specific spoilers to my Ordinary Tech. I will discuss my build with various people and get opinions. I would imagine they would do the same. If you are going to a qualifier with a secret band youve only played against yourself with.. thats crazy. everyone must be bouncing ideas off other folks. some of them just happen to be part of the "elite" crew.. but why would you want to discuss a build with someone who you consider to be your inferior when it comes to warbanding? dont you want BETTER opinions? | |
Minis... Serious Business
Completed Trades (18 ) | Pending Trades (0)
Ebay seller to Avoid –Fantasy_Quest_Dist
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 3:45 PM |
| I fired up a "question" to Ian in the WOtC Q&A thread over in general about 10 days with this very question: Will the TO's and Judge be given direct notification by WotC that Guy's rulings are official, and where to find them.
Guy responded indicating the difficult of updating the FAQ, but Ian must have missed my original question.
Very frustrating...
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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Shivan Darkeyes
Warrior
266 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 3:52 PM |
| Perhaps we should make another thread about this because it seems really off-topic, but I have heard several players express distaste as to the secretive nature of warbands and what various people will be playing.
I for one think that asking a player what his or her warband is and thinking there is an OBLIGATION for him or her to tell you is a totally and utterly unreasonable request. Top players like Dagni, DoubtofBuddha, and Phrank have all come under attack for not explaining their warband choices. I correspond with all three of these players outside of the forums and they didn't tell me what the bands they were playing were. Maybe I am off base, but I think all three of these players like me well enough as a person and would have loved to see me qualify at MI but once again they didn't "collude" to help me get out of the qualifier, rather, they didn't tell me what their bands were out of respect for their other testing buddies. The reason top players tell some people what their warbands are is so they can practice, it is inevitable, the reason they don't tell others is to ensure that the metagame isn't "warped" by the knowledge that good player "X" is going to play warband "X" I better either play that warband or be able to deal with it.
The format is very rock-paper-scissors right now. If you choose to play the wrong band you can get hosed even if you play well. I think one of the only reasons that some people get angry at players like Jesse or Robert are because these players GIVE SO MUCH to the community that some members have forgotten that they do this out of GENEROSITY rather than some sort of obligation. I for one want to take this opportunity to shout out a big "thank you!" to these players. I know I wouldn't have qualified in 2004 without Dagni's advice and in 2005 without BShugg's help. Players willing to take time to help others is what makes this game different from Magic and I bet it will be what makes DDM different from Dreamblade. We have a great community I hope we don't ruin it with straw person arguments against top players, especially ones who give so much back to us.
-John Siadak (Shivan Darkeyes)
PS- Yes I AM a Dagni/DoubtofBuddha/Phrank/BShugg FAN maybe I am too zealous in my defense of them but they have given me too much for me to just ignore them. | |
13th Place at the 2005 DDM Championship in GenCon | |
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 4:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
It seems that between Gunthar's comments and Shadow_Fox's insinuations about browbeating on the part of top players, that there seems to be some level of ill-will against high profile players. I wonder why?
Jesse, I think it is human nature to want what someone else has. It is even mentioned in the Bible as being bad, so we can assume it has been going on a lot longer then the DDM game has been around. People are jealous of what others have and that can be possessions as well as knowlegde/skill. So people look at the top players with a mix of jealousy and want. I for one am not one of the best players and I enjoy playing the game more for fun so it does not bother me. In another post you also mentioned the top players sharing information and ideas... that is to be expected. Why would you not want to push your game to new levels. I for one know many top ranked players and have great conversations with them, even though I am not high ranked.
People need to just relax when it comes to ranking and player ability and just play the game. If you play to win, great... if you play for fun, great... BUT play be the rules and play fair, that is more important. | |
Sean Banks
Champion of Elementals
Official Organizer
Gen Con 05 maxminis Event | Winterfantasy 06 maxminis Event | Gen Con 06 maxminis Event | Winterfantasy 07 Community Event | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 4:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
It seems that between Gunthar's comments and Shadow_Fox's insinuations about browbeating on the part of top players, that there seems to be some level of ill-will against high profile players. I wonder why?
Perceptions of arrogance, smugness, tooting one's own horn, etc., I'm sure. I know I'm occasionally (constantly?) guilty of those things and I'm not even a top player.
In any case, that is normal for any competitive environment, honestly - and sometimes perceptions are misunderstandings, and sometimes they aren't. That goes for these boards as much as for MtG, chess, sports, whatever.
Consider, for example, Dagni's thread analyzing where he's gained/lost DCI points from different players, etc. I found that thread really interesting, personally, and I'm not bothered by it at all - but I also knew when I saw it that there was going to be a certain element in the player base that would see that thread as a form of bragging.
Ditto with your tournament report; for some people with a strong competitive streak, stuff like that will create resentment whether or not you or I think it really should.
Even stuff like putting your ranking in your signature, or putting a "Team Whatever" thing in there can cause issues with some people.
The question, though, is how much should you care about that sort of reaction? I'm inclined to not be terribly bothered by it, but then I guess in this context it hasn't really been pointed at me. I'm at a point in my game where I still stand to gain more from discussing my band of choice openly than by hiding it from people. I think everyone in our local area knows I've been playing the same band for the last month and a half and what that probably implies for our qualifier. [:p] I can see a situation down the road when I can really consider myself good enough where I would be inclined to keep it secret, though.
I can sort of understand the feeling of being 'left out' of the warband discussion that happens offline with the top players around this time of year, although I think "collusion" is not an appropriate word to use here, mostly because the word doesn't really mean exactly what it is being used to mean here. We're lucky enough here to have a socialist mail discussion list with I think all the various NorCal players on it for that sort of thing, but for someone who doesn't have that sort of resource available, plays in an area without heavy activity or one of the top players, etc., I can see how easily that could turn into resentment at not being able to access information that other people get to see. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 4:34 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15
They are going to have a judges test for Dreamblade... I can't understand why they haven't had one for DDM. Anyone can and should be able to be the judge for a local sanctioned game, but a qualifier should have QUALIFIED judges...
Pat E
Perhaps another sign that DDM is just a bastard stepchild?
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 4:40 PM |
| Well, we aren't playing for $20,000 prize pools either. I can understand the difference between DDM and Dreamblade/Magic judging needs from WotC's perspective.
I may disagree, but I understand.
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Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
Champion of Juiblex | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 4:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zaukrie
This raises the eternal question, how do they really choose these locations?
This is the million dollar question, isn't it? Seems like this question constantly gets raised about prereleases and qualifiers. Venue selection appears to be less and less about DDM the game, and more and more about DCI the system - and to me, that seems incredibly wrong. Whats wrong with awarding the events to stores that do more to promote the game and have a better knowledge to run such events?
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Chairman7w
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 4:56 PM |
| That's right. To BE the man, you've got the BEAT the Man, and those that can't are left sitting on the sidelines whining about not being let in on the Man's discussions, warband ideas, etc.
How bout you just practice a WHOLE lot, study hard, and be creative in devising your own Warband, then YOU can be the Man.
Chairman7w (who is currently NOT the man! LOL!)
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Perceptions of arrogance, smugness, tooting one's own horn, etc., I'm sure.
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Dr. Simon: A phrase that's encoded in her brain, that makes her fall asleep. If I speak the words, "Eta...
Jayne: Well don't say it!
Zoë: It only works on her, Jayne. | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 5:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Dagni
quote:
Originally posted by Gunthar
quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
I got to say I agree on this one here. I was going to say something but decided it wasn't my place and to let it slide, but I've got follower tendencies so now that its broken I will echo the sentiments of Dagni.
I guess I wonder why YOU would think this?
Argh! Whether fairly or unfairly, whether intentionally or unintentionally, this comes across as further insinuations, this time directed at AesophDarkfable.
If intentionally, stop. That was the point of my first post.
If unintentionally, try very hard to stop, write a little more, and be just a little bit clearer.
To respond to the question, just maybe he was as offended as I was that you would insinuate something against unnamed "top players" as if they were doing anything wrong, and do it without actually addressing the players or the acts of supposed wrongdoing. I think that any long-time reader of this forum could've objected to what you wrote as easily as I or Aesoph, that's why I responded as I did.
I can't say for sure that what you did was inappropriate. All I can say is that in my opinion it was. Feel free to argue with that if you wish. But if other people chime in and say they also think it's inappropriate, it probably won't be because of a special reason that THAT person agrees with me. In fact, it sounds like the only reason Aesoph didn't immediately respond to your comment was because it did NOT relate to him directly in any way.
- Dagni
Let me break this down a bit:
1. I’ve met AD before face-to-face. It does, like it or not, give you a somewhat different perspective on people. It’s a face to go with a name, if you will. I was trying to figure out why he specifically thought I was attacking someone. A misinterpretation from him means a lot more than from someone I haven’t met, as a misinterpretation from a close friend would mean more than from an acquaintance.
2. People have posted on these very boards they were upset with certain things players have done, or been thought to have done.
3. It/they has/have NOT upset me.
4. It has concerned me that some may take certain practices (perceived or real) as license to “push the envelope” in other ways, ways which I disagree with. (Read: Cheating, etc.) Rationalization is common in Human Nature.
5. I do not condone cheating, that’s a major reason why I was concerned.
6. The other main reason is that it takes from the fun of the game for everyone.
7. As questions about intentional cheating were raised, this seemed a place to bring it up.
To recap: I simply pointed out that some people appeared to have taken offense to certain practices, wrong or not, and it concerned me where the potential slippery slope would lead. That's it. Look at the "ethics" thread. People who agreed with each other on basic premise were debating vehemently. Where does "accepted" behavior end for some? THAT'S my concern.
If you want to talk about internet perceptions of people, cripes, bring up a concern for a discussion and Mr. "I'm the bestest, see my rating, look at me, look at me" thinks it must be an accusation against him. IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT YOU. GET OVER YOURSELF. It was a concern, which I stated. THAT'S IT. If you bothered | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 5:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Dagni
Just to let you know, that's not how I took your words in your original post at all, and I had to reread this one a couple of times before I got that meaning out of it. It sounded - to me, at least - a LOT more like you were saying that if top players are willing to do underhanded activity A and B, can we be surprised if some players are willing to go so far as underhanded activity C? In other words, if most people are willing to do slightly dirty stuff, of course a few will go even farther. If I'm reading it correctly now, you're actually saying that if some people *think* that top players are doing underhanded activity A and B, is it any surprise that a few of these misguided individuals do underhanded activity C?
To get back to what I said to you originally, I hope you realize that saying "if top players are willing to do underhanded activity A and B, can we be surprised if some players are willing to go so far as underhanded activity C?" is inappropriate, because you allege that people are doing things that the community is or might find inappropriate, without specifically calling out either the activity nor the person, thus not allowing the person to defend himself. Indeed, you allege that it's common knowledge and an opinion shared by many. These things I disagree with. More and more, I especially disagree with the notion that many people think anything bad about Jesse (for not sharing his warband) or other top players.
This is how I read those comments as well. The first post seemed to be a jab at the "top players", while the second post clarified that Gunthar himself did not believe those things. Which makes me wonder who all these people are that feel this way, and why Gunthar is speaking for them when he doesn't share their views. If there are so many of them, you'd think one of them could start a new thread on the subject. It's certainly a problem that I never realized existed.
I can say that I was at Utah, and witnessed nothing that I considered to be shady or unsportsmanlike in regards to any of the players or their behavior. And in regards to doubt's report omitting his warband, how many players have posted the warband they plan to bring to their qualifier? None that I know of. | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 5:21 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
It seems that between Gunthar's comments and Shadow_Fox's insinuations about browbeating on the part of top players, that there seems to be some level of ill-will against high profile players. I wonder why?
People want to win, and they want to know (in many cases) how other people win. If they perceive top-rated players to be "pushing the envelope" they will try to do the same, but often in different ways. They rationalize it as equating it to being "the same" as what's been done.
Threads like pointing out your own new rankings don't help either. That can easily be perceived as arrogant and smug. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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Shadow_Fox
Underboss
1751 Posts
Litchfield, MN
| | 05/15/2006 5:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by striderlotr
quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
It seems that between Gunthar's comments and Shadow_Fox's insinuations about browbeating on the part of top players, that there seems to be some level of ill-will against high profile players. I wonder why?
Jesse, I think it is human nature to want what someone else has. It is even mentioned in the Bible as being bad, so we can assume it has been going on a lot longer then the DDM game has been around. People are jealous of what others have and that can be possessions as well as knowlegde/skill. So people look at the top players with a mix of jealousy and want. I for one am not one of the best players and I enjoy playing the game more for fun so it does not bother me. In another post you also mentioned the top players sharing information and ideas... that is to be expected. Why would you not want to push your game to new levels. I for one know many top ranked players and have great conversations with them, even though I am not high ranked.
People need to just relax when it comes to ranking and player ability and just play the game. If you play to win, great... if you play for fun, great... BUT play be the rules and play fair, that is more important.
I think this issue is starting to cross the line. I dont appreciate having words put into my mouth along the lines of making a blanket statement that covers "all top players". My comments were in relation to several different people with various positions within the community. To now twist my words and try to pass them off as "Shadow Fox hates all top level players and is jealous because he wants what they have" is rediculous.
I understand that I have conducted myself poorly in the past, and that is a burden Im going to have to carry with me and hopefully someday atone for, but to try and drag me into a flame war by questioning my integrity is aggrivating and hurtful to me. And I will not drag our good forums through this kind of conflict by participating in childish squabling..
I can not and do not speak for Gunthar. He speaks for himself and makes his own comments just like everyone else. Dont drag me into any issues you may have with him.
Im sorry for this rant everyone. I just had to get my feelings off my chest because this thread is quickly turning down a road we do not want to travel down.
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
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