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| | Author | Messages | |
Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
    
 | | 05/16/2006 3:16 PM |
| | So "The Man" is keeping the man down? | |
I am not gone. | |
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sienar
Sergeant
640 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 3:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
So "The Man" is keeping the man down?
exactly. | |
[http://www.hordelings.com/frontend/profiles/profile.php?user_id=22] | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 3:44 PM |
| | Damn the man! | |
I am not gone. | |
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Shivan Darkeyes
Warrior
266 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 3:47 PM |
| | lol... this thread is really funny but I'm surprised a moderater hasn't asked to move the discussion to the thread Derry made for this discussion and keep this one to the "cheating" and judging that occured in MI. | |
13th Place at the 2005 DDM Championship in GenCon | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 3:52 PM |
| Its because I am a bad moderator and ChristopherGroves is in hiding. [:P]
Good point though. Keep further discussion on secrets and cliques to Derry's thread. Thank you. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 4:17 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
quote:
Originally posted by Felagund
What? What was even remotely offensive about that exchange? How is that scheming or colluding or obfuscating?
Doubt gave in to the complainers, and Dagni said that it was unfortunate, but what he expected. Am I missing something?
Dagni was refering to a comment I made. So I must be colluding with him to keep the people down.
Okay, so when I asked you for warband advice two days before the Utah qualifier, were you colluding by giving it to me? Or was I colluding by actually running the band you suggested?
[:p] | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 4:20 PM |
| Response is here:
http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20144 | |
I am not gone. | |
| English Ghost (OP Program Manager)
Talafenix
Sneak
128 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 5:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15
They are going to have a judges test for Dreamblade... I can't understand why they haven't had one for DDM. Anyone can and should be able to be the judge for a local sanctioned game, but a qualifier should have QUALIFIED judges...
Pat E
OK I've finally read this thread. Sorry for the delay but good times here. My Birthday and my anniversary meant my dear wife booked a surprise trip this last weekend.
OK so back into the chair and to answer a few questions.
Firstly... Mike, Pat, Guy,Brad etc will all tell you I've engaged them in developing OUR testing program. Good news yes? This was a while ago and not a reaction as they will attest.
Secondly... Even Magic do NOT require a TO run event to have a sanctioned judge. A TO can appoint anyone BUT a poor run event may end up with them NOT running future events. This requires an official complaint. Sending it to me is sufficiant BUT you DO need to name names and full circumstances if you do. I encourage you to do so as we can then address it going forward. Stores are able to apply to run these helping to support their communities and the core stores overall. With that comes a responsiblity to us and more importantly, yourselves that the event is properly run. It is our duty to weed out those that arn't and ensure there is no duplication. So though there is no requirement on Magic events they do get sanctioned judges otherwise players boycot them for the very reasons you outline.
So from here... Always report these issues. Report them via our online reporting system or to me directly. We'll do our best to control this from happening. Sadly if the TO's judges don't show we can't vouch for any stand in judges for the above reasons we can't demand criteria initially we can only tell them of the consequenses of their actions if it goes wrong.
Anyway hope that helps some.
Ian
PS I received no enquiries about judges.
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Ian Richards
RPGA Program Manager
Program Manager for D&D, Star Wars and Axis & Allies Miniatures.
Organized Play
Wizards of the Coast | |
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Chairman7w
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 6:11 PM |
| LOL!! Yes, exactly! One must Beat the Man, to become the Man!
quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Wouldn't the top players be the Man?
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Dr. Simon: A phrase that's encoded in her brain, that makes her fall asleep. If I speak the words, "Eta...
Jayne: Well don't say it!
Zoë: It only works on her, Jayne. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 05/16/2006 8:41 PM |
| Thanks for the reply Ian. I really appreciate your involving yourself, by taking the time and consideration to post. I will take the time to write a thorough statement, including whatever information I can get (the TO has agreed that he'd be willing to put words to paper, I'll phone him and see what he'll do). I'll put all this together and get it to the right people.
Also, I'll be doing everything in my power to qualify as a judge, that's for sure.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 05/16/2006 9:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
The Living Document idea is very very good.
I`m not so sure the answer is another set of print outs with even less 'official' recoginition than Guy's Page.
Handy to have such a document but not going to help those judges who arent already aware of the 'extra' rules. | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
|
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 10:10 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Its because I am a bad moderator and ChristopherGroves is in hiding. [:P]
Good point though. Keep further discussion on secrets and cliques to Derry's thread. Thank you.
I am stealthly, like a Ninja.
Actually, I'm completely and totally worked out. The Roller Derby match Sunday (and afterparty) did me in, then I had a hockey game yesterday and I've pretty much been the walking dead.
Of course I wrongly assumed that Jesse would police this thread since he was so involved. Complete and utter slacker ... | |
Triangle DDM Skirmish Group | My Email | 45-ish trades and counting | Stuff for Trade
* * * Show your brother some love and click here * * * | |
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demitroy
Skirmisher
39 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 12:36 AM |
| quote:
Of course I wrongly assumed that Jesse would police this thread since he was so involved. Complete and utter slacker ...
And we all know what happens when you assume!!!!!! hehe | |
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Dapuma
Sneak
99 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 9:20 AM |
| LOL This thread is still going...this is an unbelievable witch hunt, by the maxmini's community and/or fanboi's of Vreneki.
Vreneki: It is very easy to play the victim here. Seriously grow up (never thought I would need to tell an old man to do that) and take accountability for playing and the results. It seems like you have some special rules that you play by that are not DCI rules. I played by DCI rules, got a judge ruling over any moves/abilities that were questioned. THAT IS MY RIGHT TO DO SO AS DAGNI HAS POINTED OUT IN MULTIPLE POSTS. If you dont like that fact, complain about DCI rules, dont try to label me a cheater.
If by cheating you mean: beating you, your son, and your buddy, i sure did!
Secondly, that is a stigmatism that; even if you take back what you said, i now have to live with. That would be like me saying that you molest your son. Whether or not it is true, you are guilty until proven innocent in the public eye. Once said it cannot be taken back and you will not be looked at the same. Everyone will always wonder if it is really true or not.
You keep saying the judge got it all wrong. Well here is a real life example that sometimes ref's get it wrong (when there is something of actual value on the line, not a silly game), but that doesnt mean the team they were playing are cheaters.
http://www.manutd.com/footballnow/matchreport.sps?sNewsMonth=7&select1=458&eventid=15025
The bottom line is, give it a rest. If you spent as much effort into besmirching my name as you did into creating a better warband and practicing you probably would be able to have a shot at qualifiying. Sorry this sounds a little hostile but there is no reason i should have to defend placing 3rd at a major tournament. I would expect some congradulations since i have been playing the game for about a month and a half. I would hope that the community would welcome a new player that has some skill. Regarding this thread, i find this link particularly relevant:
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/crybaby.htm
Ian (curses to your Chelsea, next year is ManUtd's year): Hello (not sure if you remember the A&A sealed release event last year at GenCon, i placed 2nd - picture of us on the wotc site, I am the good looking short guy) If there is something i can do to clear up this matter let me know via email.
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More trade references:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=566273 | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 05/17/2006 10:07 AM |
| Dakota,
Thanks for writing back. In the earlier post in this thread, you pointed out that as the time was running low in our game, I asked that you not stall, and you didn't. You're right about that. Our game was very close, but, and I admit this openly, one of the reasons it was very close is that I was getting ridiculously lucky die rolls on very weird things (my Sacred Watchers, it seems, just wouldn't run away from your Cleric of Lathander). And, you got some really bad die rolls. Your choice of basing my Marut with your Bodyguard early in the game didn't look like a smart move, but it actually was. I keep re-thinking our match and I can honestly say that your band was probably the worst matchup I had, and it's not just the band. You did play it well. I posted elsewhere that I thought that your band was brilliantly built against the expected meta. Your band was ideally suited to face Marut/Couatl bands and I know you faced at least four.
As for the witch hunt aspect of things, I think there's been some bleeding over between two different points of contention. First, there are several people now who've claimed that you made plays that were not legal. Whether this was cheating, whether it was the result of ignorance (you admitted to me in our game that you'd only been playing for about a month), or whether the allegations are simply false, are, of course, going to be seen by different people in different ways. Second, there are many people (including the Tournament Organizer) who are very upset with the judging at the event. I do think that some of the bitterness about these two issues have bled over into each other and I can imagine that one of the consequences of this is that you've been demonized.
I, personally, will not choose to believe you over my son. And, if the situation were reversed, and you had a son who was well-known to show excellent sportsmanship, and he accused me of cheating, I'd expect that you'd believe your son over me too. If a good father does anything, he defends his kids. That said, I have not posted my son's report online. He wanted me to, but it wouldn't be fair to you. My own accusations have created a big enough firestorm and caused enough problems.
Do I want my son to have qualified? You bet. But, I can say this, my son and I have almost qualified at three different qualifiers now (two last year, one this year). We've placed very well in these events, but never quite made it. At the previous two, we left with the knowledge that we'd done our best, but that our best simply wasn't good enough against the field of other excellent players. After Saturday's match, we were angry. I felt that Alex wasn't allowed to do his best because the rules of the game were not enforced and that this time, not qualifying wasn't due to our level of play, it was due to poor judging. And, I felt, that there wouldn't have been a need for any judging at all (good or poor), if there hadn't been a reason for Alex to call into question your plays.
I was angry with the judge for making bad calls, I was angry at you because I had no reason to believe that my son was wrong about the cheating accusations, and I was angry at the tournament organizer for there having been many oddities at this event (the seating was very nonstandard for a competitive event--I should have been playing my match near you and my son at that point, and if I had, I could have seen things for myself and would be in a much better place to make claims; and, unlike any other tournament I'd been at, no player that I know of was asked to sign any slips after any matches).
You're right about the consequences of the accusations. I was wrong to have fielded my complaints (about you) here. I should have taken it up with the Tournament Organizer, the judge, and/or DCI. Whatever damage has been done to your reputation as a player can only be healed by time and that's not fair to you if you're innocent of the allegations that have been made. I should have just left my post here to a post about the judging of the event.
Lastly, you're right that you have the right as a player to have a judge come over and validate your plays if they're questioned by the other player. I agree 100%. But, the judge's calls were wrong (a Bodyguard cannot take the damage of a fireball, a sonic orb, or anything else that isn't a melee or ranged attack, and a piece that doesn't have incorporeal or burrow cannot cut through the diagonal of a wall). If you really didn't know those rules, then it's really not your fault. If that turns out to be the case, I'm sorry and you have my public apology. I have posted elsewhere that despite how things turned out, I admitted that it was possible that you could have beaten my son anyway. You beat me, you beat my other friend who played a Marut/Couatl band, and, from the standings, you beat a lot of other people too.
If the illegal moves were unintentional, and the judge is the one at fault, then you deserve my utmost and sincerest apology, and my ire should be directed at the judge (who, it turns out, was a novice and not really suited to the task), the Tournament Organizer (for not having a better judge or for not finding a better solution to the judging issue), or Wizards (for not supplying the Tournament Organizer with a way to find a good judge).
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Helzapoppn
Warrior
258 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 10:09 AM |
| It's a thing of beauty the way you calmed the waters with that last post, Dakota...
That was sarcasm, btw...
| |
Champion of Iconics & the Apparatus of Kwalish (Constructs with Drivers? Brilliant!)
Dungeons of Dread Called Shot: Yeah, right | |
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EldritchSoul
Warrior
324 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 10:10 AM |
| Based on the beating your character has taken in this thread, your post is understandable, D. However, had you read what Dave has been posting, he's been doing his best to keep the blame off of you and on the judge/TO. However, multiple people have stated that you tried the bodyguard takes spell damage trick against them and were corrected each time. yet you continued to do so. The card clearly states that the bodyguard only takes damage from attacks, the judge siding with you does NOT make you right. You sound like a smart guy, a smart enough guy to have figured out that bodyguard can't absorb spell damage. just because the judge incorrectly sided with you does not give you a pass. When you tried to charge with the Aspect, I handed you the rulebook opened to the diagram of a charging lane and you ignored the rulebook in deference to the judge who had been incorrect on rulings all day. Yes, you played by the rules and got a judge, but you seem smart enough to know that the judge was wrong, these weren't obscure rulings, these were clearly written out on the stat card and in the rulebook.
on a different line: soccer is just as much a game as DDM. and something of actual value was on the line: an invitation for championships, boosters, a gancon badge and a plane ticket.
Welcome to the game, your build, as has been stated on other threads, was perfect for the meta, but you claim to have skill, yet your placing 3rd came on questionable circumstances. The folks at championships will be wary of you and your play style, and the judges WILL know the rules, so good luck, and this time you can let your skill show how good you are. | |
Champion of Dracotaur- Vindicated!
T32 | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 05/17/2006 10:16 AM |
| Dakota,
I'm editing the post I made on the Wizards Boards (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=637196&page=1&pp=30). That post has turned into a discussion on slow play at tournaments, and that's a fine and suitable topic for discussion. If anyone on that, more public, and therefore potentially more damaging to you, forum wants to read about this, they'll have to come here to see it.
It was wrong of me to stand on the rooftops and shout out that you were a cheater by posting my worries there as well as here.
Edit: also, please see this thread where I've posted information about the Tournament Organizer's phone calls with me about this whole thing.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Shivan Darkeyes
Warrior
266 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 10:34 AM |
| He has yet in all his posts to explain the fireball bodyguard thing.
D, if you are so innocent of cheating why don't you explain what happened with the bodyguard and fireball. Perhaps you think that taking a rule that you know and breaking it because you know the judge will rule in your favor is a legitimate play. If this is the case you should just say so and I think people will make up thier own minds about your charecter and this thread can die. | |
13th Place at the 2005 DDM Championship in GenCon | |
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Foxman
Sergeant
417 Posts
Calgary, AB, Canada
| | 05/17/2006 10:58 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
Dakota,
MY GOD MAN! His name is "Dapuma" NOT Dakota!
I've followed this threat with vague intrest, but please! Use the right username! Dakota has a RUSH icon! He's a different person! I know Shadowfox and I would likely get a bit cranky if people were confusing our names!
LOL [:p] | |
It would be very unlikely for unlikely events not to occur.
- J. A. Paulos "Innumeracy" | |
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neilasaurus
Sneak
134 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 11:48 AM |
| | Heh it sounds to me like the judge for this fiasco was someone who thought they knew the D&D minis rules because they played D&D. And like 95% of D&D players, he didn't really even know the D&D rules, and was convinced he was an expert. | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 12:17 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Dapuma
The bottom line is, give it a rest. If you spent as much effort into besmirching my name as you did into creating a better warband and practicing you probably would be able to have a shot at qualifiying. Sorry this sounds a little hostile but there is no reason i should have to defend placing 3rd at a major tournament. I would expect some congradulations since i have been playing the game for about a month and a half. I would hope that the community would welcome a new player that has some skill. Regarding this thread, i find this link particularly relevant:
I think you have done more to besmirch your name than Vrecknidj has done. Whether or not you cheated is still up in the air, as you refuse to give your side of the story. But for someone to brag about placing top 4 through illegal moves(cheating or not, the moves were illegal) and judging incompetence, and then expect congratulations for it is a bit ridiculous. Making personal attacks against Vrecknidj goes a long way in revealing your character as well.
I can't speak for the community, but I have no interest in welcoming a skilled player to the game if that player is rude and impolite. I would much rather see an unskilled and courteous player join the game. | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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Shivan Darkeyes
Warrior
266 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 12:20 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Foxman
quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
Dakota,
MY GOD MAN! His name is "Dapuma" NOT Dakota!
I've followed this threat with vague intrest, but please! Use the right username! Dakota has a RUSH icon! He's a different person! I know Shadowfox and I would likely get a bit cranky if people were confusing our names!
LOL [:p]
In case your post is not a big joke.
Dakota is his name in real life.
(Sorry if I missed the joke on that one) | |
13th Place at the 2005 DDM Championship in GenCon | |
| English Ghost (OP Program Manager)
Talafenix
Sneak
128 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 12:42 PM |
| [/quote]I think you have done more to besmirch your name than Vrecknidj has done. Whether or not you cheated is still up in the air, as you refuse to give your side of the story. But for someone to brag about placing top 4 through illegal moves(cheating or not, the moves were illegal) and judging incompetence, and then expect congratulations for it is a bit ridiculous. Making personal attacks against Vrecknidj goes a long way in revealing your character as well.
I can't speak for the community, but I have no interest in welcoming a skilled player to the game if that player is rude and impolite. I would much rather see an unskilled and courteous player join the game.
[/quote]
I'm saddened I have to ask this but there is positives as well and negatives in this post.
Firstly congratulations to all qualifiers. They all worked hard to qualify. I judge pretty regularly as you can expect and it's amazing how many times good players ask for clarity on points you'd not expect. That's the sign of a long day at the office so to speak. being tired makes you question if you're right. It's not easy at times therefore for anyone to just point out that by asking is something less than asking for a ruling is tenuous.
Anyway I ask that we stop the mud throwing and look at some points at hand.
I'm going to start a workshop here but I'm also going to post more on our boards. It's going to be a guideline to what Judges should be doing. This I hope will manage your expectations as well as help teach judges. I'm sure most are doing this right now but it's always good to have something as a reference as judges have long days at the office as well 8-)
I also want to address a few issues at the store and with Richard contacting us (Wizards). I also spoke to Richard this morning. A few things I want to point out.
1. Richard cares about the community. That is totally evident from our conversation.
2. Richard understands your concerns but he's 110 percent correct with the situation application. More will be clear in my post about procedure.
3. Richard did contact Wizards just not myself. To be honest he contacted the best person. We have someone that looks after our judging program and, as he would with Magic, he contacted them. Sadly we were unable to help him but he did everything he could with us to try and find a top judge for the event. To be honest contacting me would of possibly done no more so please understand I was wrong to not check before I posted. To Richard I publically apologise. Live example of we all make mistakes. I also want to point out that to offer services after the event is always 20/20 vision. It's harsh but true. I remember many times thinking... 'if only I had...'.
Anyway if you're interested more check out the Judging thread in general that I'll post today and also check out the articles which will be ongoing with our website.
Take care for now.
Ian | |
Ian Richards
RPGA Program Manager
Program Manager for D&D, Star Wars and Axis & Allies Miniatures.
Organized Play
Wizards of the Coast | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 12:55 PM |
| Ian:
This is a messy situation, no doubt... If I could direct you to scan through the "new" WotC Q&A thread. In Page 2 I asked about making sure that Judges had all the right information available to them. I'm curious as to how you have approached this for this qualifier season.
Thanks for the work that you do!
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
|
| 05/17/2006 2:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Felagund
I think you have done more to besmirch your name than Vrecknidj has done. Whether or not you cheated is still up in the air, as you refuse to give your side of the story. But for someone to brag about placing top 4 through illegal moves(cheating or not, the moves were illegal) and judging incompetence, and then expect congratulations for it is a bit ridiculous. Making personal attacks against Vrecknidj goes a long way in revealing your character as well.
I can't speak for the community, but I have no interest in welcoming a skilled player to the game if that player is rude and impolite. I would much rather see an unskilled and courteous player join the game.
I disagree with this, Felagund. Assuming he's innocent, I think most of us would respond similarly to a thread as antagonistic as this one. It's hard to avoid being defensive and angry in a thread that, well, makes you very angry.
He didn't go into details, with reason, but with respect to Vrecknidj, we have no way of knowing whether or not these rulings cost Alex the game. To put it another way, had the rulings been made correctly in the first place, that wouldn't have guaranteed Dapuma was going to lose.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
| 2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 2:25 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Talafenix
Firstly congratulations to all qualifiers. They all worked hard to qualify. I judge pretty regularly as you can expect and it's amazing how many times good players ask for clarity on points you'd not expect. That's the sign of a long day at the office so to speak. being tired makes you question if you're right. It's not easy at times therefore for anyone to just point out that by asking is something less than asking for a ruling is tenuous.
I don't really care to comment directly on the topic of the thread, lest some poor misguided souls tend to think that because I'm the current champion my opinion matters more than the next guy's. (Hint: it doesn't.)
But I will say that Ian is totally correct about the part I've quoted above. Hell, during nationals I asked a judge about flanking for god's sake. Could there be a more basic question? Yet at the time I was really unsure of whether a Large creature was flanked or not.
Long day at the office, indeed. | |
Read my championship tournament report.
Successful trades:
xBrendanx | Cha0tic G0od | ThatOneGuy | BrazenWood | Finley | Arris | Drift x2 | Neonmage | Cthulu's Librarian | Kalvos | PatEllis15 | Paradox1995 | Rhane | Gildogg | Darthrau | Vrecknidj x2 | erian_7 | Octavius Drowslayer x2 | stheis | Garate | thenameless | Lucky_ksu | ckissee | Corim Danex | Schooly_D | Username | |
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sienar
Sergeant
640 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 2:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Dagni
quote:
Originally posted by Felagund
I think you have done more to besmirch your name than Vrecknidj has done. Whether or not you cheated is still up in the air, as you refuse to give your side of the story. But for someone to brag about placing top 4 through illegal moves(cheating or not, the moves were illegal) and judging incompetence, and then expect congratulations for it is a bit ridiculous. Making personal attacks against Vrecknidj goes a long way in revealing your character as well.
I can't speak for the community, but I have no interest in welcoming a skilled player to the game if that player is rude and impolite. I would much rather see an unskilled and courteous player join the game.
I disagree with this, Felagund. Assuming he's innocent, I think most of us would respond similarly to a thread as antagonistic as this one. It's hard to avoid being defensive and angry in a thread that, well, makes you very angry.
He didn't go into details, with reason, but with respect to Vrecknidj, we have no way of knowing whether or not these rulings cost Alex the game. To put it another way, had the rulings been made correctly in the first place, that wouldn't have guaranteed Dapuma was going to lose.
- Dagni
I'd rather prefer to think that Dapuma is not a cheater than he is a cheater. I totally agree that the original post would be rather anger-inducing to the target of it (valid or not).
If I may reopen the dialogue with Dapuma (if you are still reading this) without any mudslinging or accusations, I think it would go a long way to build credibility if you would respond to some of the specifics.
I think the big thing that is putting people on the edge is related to the Warforged Bodyguard. Given that there appear to be multiple instances where illegal moves were made with him, from what I gather, once corrected by your opponent and later ruled incorrectly by the judge different than your original opponent has shown you to be true. Did you forget (it's easy to forget a rule the first time being made aware of it, especially if you have been playing it incorrectly previously), did you feel your opponent was wrong about it? Did you simply make a mistake (we all have done that)? Or something else my feeble brain hasn't come up with?
I will reiterate something I said before, and I think this is where it is rubbing a lot of people the wrong way is the way you have answered the accusation of cheating in this case. You have defended the multiple occasions of incorrect application of the Bodyguard ability (it can be very confusing) not by stating you didn't know or something to that effect, but by stating the judge ruled it that way, therefore it is not cheating. It can't be defined as cheating by DCI standards, but if you know better, it still is cheating. That is giving the appearance of you being a cheat.
I am not trying to say any of this in a condescending manner, or accusatory. I tried to put down the facts (as I have perceived them by this thread). Your image is definitely tarnished at this point, whether or not it is fair and reasonable. To me, it would go a long way for you to lay it out on the table. Heck, I'd be willing to accept 'I screwed up. Sorry. I won't to it again.' I'd watch ya if we play, but you would sure have more respect from me. [)]
My opinion matters very little, and the opinions of this community matter about the same, but if you want to become a rspected member it it (and I'm not sure I am fully at this point), a more fleshed-out response would go a long way.
(I don't mean any of this as a threat, attack, or whatever - eloquent I am not and print is a bad medium to convey emotion properly. This is just how I think you might be able to gain respect you have lost (again, undeserved or no)) | |
[http://www.hordelings.com/frontend/profiles/profile.php?user_id=22] | |
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sienar
Sergeant
640 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 2:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
quote:
Originally posted by Talafenix
Firstly congratulations to all qualifiers. They all worked hard to qualify. I judge pretty regularly as you can expect and it's amazing how many times good players ask for clarity on points you'd not expect. That's the sign of a long day at the office so to speak. being tired makes you question if you're right. It's not easy at times therefore for anyone to just point out that by asking is something less than asking for a ruling is tenuous.
I don't really care to comment directly on the topic of the thread, lest some poor misguided souls tend to think that because I'm the current champion my opinion matters more than the next guy's. (Hint: it doesn't.)
But I will say that Ian is totally correct about the part I've quoted above. Hell, during nationals I asked a judge about flanking for god's sake. Could there be a more basic question? Yet at the time I was really unsure of whether a Large creature was flanked or not.
Long day at the office, indeed.
Absolutely. *Always* ask the judge if you are not sure. Even between matches.
Obviously, there are problems if the judge doesn't know how to answer the question. I will make no claim to knowing all of the rules and rulings. That's why I carry a binder with all of them in it. Whether I know a rule for certain or not; I know where to find it. [:)] | |
[http://www.hordelings.com/frontend/profiles/profile.php?user_id=22] | |
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Venport
Sergeant
739 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 2:54 PM |
| I think that we can turn this into a very positive thing for the DDM community. Vrecknidj i'm sorry that your son was not given a proper shot at Qualifiing at this event. However saying that Vrecknidj you have handled this issue well (not perfect) I think that the people at WOTC will try and have better judging at events that are this big. Saying that, bad calls will happen as dapuma has shown.
Dapuma: I hope that this will not discourage you from DDM. Being in the game for about a month is a short time and knowing all of the rules is not 100% expected. I just wish the judge knew more about the game so that your 4th place finish could be undisputed. Your post was very offensive (it seemed to be) defending your self is 100% expected but that dose not mean that you need to attack. (even if someone else attacked you)
I hope that the DDM community will become strong after this...
| |
Sacramento DDM http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16854
New world Project http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20745
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Shivan Darkeyes
Warrior
266 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 3:04 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by sienar
I'd rather prefer to think that Dapuma is not a cheater than he is a cheater. I totally agree that the original post would be rather anger-inducing to the target of it (valid or not).
If I may reopen the dialogue with Dapuma (if you are still reading this) without any mudslinging or accusations, I think it would go a long way to build credibility if you would respond to some of the specifics.
I think the big thing that is putting people on the edge is related to the Warforged Bodyguard. Given that there appear to be multiple instances where illegal moves were made with him, from what I gather, once corrected by your opponent and later ruled incorrectly by the judge different than your original opponent has shown you to be true. Did you forget (it's easy to forget a rule the first time being made aware of it, especially if you have been playing it incorrectly previously), did you feel your opponent was wrong about it? Did you simply make a mistake (we all have done that)? Or something else my feeble brain hasn't come up with?
I will reiterate something I said before, and I think this is where it is rubbing a lot of people the wrong way is the way you have answered the accusation of cheating in this case. You have defended the multiple occasions of incorrect application of the Bodyguard ability (it can be very confusing) not by stating you didn't know or something to that effect, but by stating the judge ruled it that way, therefore it is not cheating. It can't be defined as cheating by DCI standards, but if you know better, it still is cheating. That is giving the appearance of you being a cheat.
I am not trying to say any of this in a condescending manner, or accusatory. I tried to put down the facts (as I have perceived them by this thread). Your image is definitely tarnished at this point, whether or not it is fair and reasonable. To me, it would go a long way for you to lay it out on the table. Heck, I'd be willing to accept 'I screwed up. Sorry. I won't to it again.' I'd watch ya if we play, but you would sure have more respect from me. [)]
My opinion matters very little, and the opinions of this community matter about the same, but if you want to become a rspected member it it (and I'm not sure I am fully at this point), a more fleshed-out response would go a long way.
(I don't mean any of this as a threat, attack, or whatever - eloquent I am not and print is a bad medium to convey emotion properly. This is just how I think you might be able to gain respect you have lost (again, undeserved or no))
I agree with this 100%. I think most people feel exactly as you explained in this post.
I'm also very happy to see what Talafenix had to say in his post. It seems like a lot of good will come from this. | |
13th Place at the 2005 DDM Championship in GenCon | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 3:08 PM |
| | Now if we could just get qualifiers in locations where good judges are always available....we'll be set [)] | |
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Venport
Sergeant
739 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 3:25 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kgradert13
Now if we could just get qualifiers in locations where good judges are always available....we'll be set [)]
Very true... | |
Sacramento DDM http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16854
New world Project http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20745
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 05/17/2006 3:41 PM |
| Thanks again, Ian, for your post. I just got off the phone with Richard again myself and we had another, good, long chat. (I told him that he was going to become my Jimminy Cricket--a little holographic Richard sitting on my shoulder to keep my posting habits where they need to be.) He reminded me about something that I want to be clear about--the Big Picture.
The Big Picture here is the gaming community, their gaming environment, and the joy that playing brings. The Big Picture isn't winning or getting an invitation. The judge at this event hasn't been around the store since Saturday. I don't want to drive him out of the game--there are too few people with the desire to judge events to begin with. If we've lost a gamer over this, I've caused more harm than good. If Fun 4 All loses players over this, I've caused more harm than good.
Let me say, clearly and publicly, that Richard, as the Tournament Organizer, was fine. The seating thing that I brought up was something I'd not experienced before, but it wasn't "wrong." Furthermore, if I'd really wanted to sit next to Alex, I could have, as there were no restrictions at the event about that. My previous post may very well make it sound like I had no choice where to sit, or like it was Richard's fault that I was where I was. That's not true.
Second, about the not signing slips after matches issue, this too is something that was unusual for me. I've had to sign off on every other game I've played, so this was new to me. It does not mean that I think that anything underhanded was going on. My previous post is also not very good about this issue. Richard very much is one of those game store guys who really likes gamers and really likes having events run in his store and really feels bad when stuff goes wrong. The extent of these threads that I've started have caused him to lose some sleep (as it has with me, too).
Richard told me that the first he'd heard about any player violations was after the 7th match, between Alex and Dakota. When other people then began posting things about Dakota cheating, or not playing fairly in other games (if the allegations are true), this was the first he'd heard it.
This brings me to a point that is painful for me to bring up. When I play, I don't want to accuse my opponent of anything. If my opponent plays slow, or fast, or doesn't mark his cards the way I think he should, or whatever, I usually remind myself that it's a game and everything is cool. Sometimes, as the game is winding down, if it matters that we get a few more rounds in without stalling, I'll mention that (this happened between me and Dakota, and he obliged me in this matter in a sporting way). I've always preferred that the two players playing a game do most of the policing themselves. I've sometimes forgotten, for example, that the Couatl's resist 10 effect doesn't apply to other commanders in the band, and when my opponents have pointed it out, even later, I've always said "You're right," and made the change. (This hasn't happened in a tournament, as far as I know; but it's an example of my point.) Usually, I think this is the way play proceeds. (But then, I don't know this for sure, as I've only been to the events I've been to, and don't know what's happened elsewhere.)
As Richard pointed out, if a player is playing unfairly, and is repeating illegal plays from one opponent to the next, this can't fall on the judge's responsibility or the TO's responsibility if the judge or TO doesn't hear of it.
If anyone else has anything positive to add about Fun 4 All, or about Richard's capacity as a Tournament Organizer, I think it would be appropriate to come forward and let him know. I feel like I've damaged his reputation and I didn't intend to.
Apologetically,
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 05/17/2006 3:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Dagni
I disagree with this, Felagund. Assuming he's innocent, I think most of us would respond similarly to a thread as antagonistic as this one. It's hard to avoid being defensive and angry in a thread that, well, makes you very angry.
He didn't go into details, with reason, but with respect to Vrecknidj, we have no way of knowing whether or not these rulings cost Alex the game. To put it another way, had the rulings been made correctly in the first place, that wouldn't have guaranteed Dapuma was going to lose.
Dagni is right about the fact that Dapuma may have beaten Alex anyway. I'm pretty sure I posted this fact already somewhere in this mess of a thread. Dapuma won and got the invite; Alex lost and didn't. Alex will likely try again in Niles and that's that.
Things have gotten way worse than they should have, and I know that one of the reasons is that I aired my grievances publicly rather than otherwise. That's my mistake for which I've already apologized and will probably continue to apologize.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 4:30 PM |
| Dave, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like your thinking that the subject should be closed... i.e. that this thread should be locked?
I think it has served it's purpose, and probably isn't helping things on any front at this point.
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 4:39 PM |
| | I think it should be left open so that Dapuma can respond if he so choosed. But if V would really like this thread to be locked, I will accede to his wishes, as I agree this discussion has mostly run its course. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 05/17/2006 5:03 PM |
| Pat, Jesse, (edit: Chris too, you beat me to the post!)
I'd like to leave it open a little while to give Dapuma a chance to respond. (And then, if he does, whether to close it right away will depend, I suppose, upon what he says--but I agree that this shouldn't go on much longer either way.)
Or, if it is closed, maybe there should be an edit to the opening and closing posts indicating that if he wishes to respond that he start a new thread.
If we leave it open for a little while, I'd prefer if the rest of us could leave the thread alone, unless Ian or a moderator has anything to add before it closes. But, of course, that's then up to each member individually. (Ironically, an exception exists for discussing whether or not to close the thread...)
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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neilasaurus
Sneak
134 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 5:17 PM |
| | The solution is obvious, if your son plays a tournament everyday between now and Gencon and scores at least 3 points in each one, he will qualify for Nationals. | |
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| | You are not authorized to post a reply. | |
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