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Sean-Khan
Commander
2714 Posts
    
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Sean-Khan
Commander
2714 Posts
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XAos
Underboss
2384 Posts
London
| | 09/20/2006 6:20 AM |
| Posted By Sean-Khan on 09/20/2006 5:16 AM
Another one is up:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/aam/ah20060920c
Not much interest here for the game anymore, eh?
When A/H admiited that most of the units are delibertaly miss-costed. That sort of wrecked interest at my FLGS.
Whats the point in playing a game that is not merly unbalenced, but A/H prefer it that way & did it deliberartly.
So it won't ever get fixed.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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Sean-Khan
Commander
2714 Posts
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CorneilleLoiseau
Sergeant
402 Posts
Qc, Canada
| | 09/27/2006 8:24 AM |
| I don't understand why the US get all the love...
-The Sherman, The best small and uncommon tank...
-The M-1 81 mortar (good tech anti-soldier...)
-and now the ranger that is equal or probably better than the SS-Panzergrenadier...
So now, they have the best small tank, the best soldier and the best anti-soldier...
Am I alone to feel like that... | |
CHAMPION OF THE ELDER BRAIN.
26 Completed transaction
17 trade completed Maxminis (13): Vrecknidj (2), AussieJim, Razarac, Ghendar, NixLord, Sir Bozak, kestrel, Sam500, yack, minatoman38, Brez and Aesnath.
Hordeling (4);rex,Brentos,greyhaze and greg cooper
Completed sale: (10)Whitehand,TwilightRaven,Melrune,Villiam, azuretide, Carta Magica, Vash/Trent, Korvax (hordeling), Kestrel and Olaf the stout. | |
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Sean-Khan
Commander
2714 Posts
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CorneilleLoiseau
Sergeant
402 Posts
Qc, Canada
| | 09/27/2006 5:52 PM |
| I write it before seeing this...
The new tank is really good. Not as good as the original Sherman but the ignore cover and rocket make him really playable, may be too much...
playtesting will tell. By giving too much good unit to the US, nobody will want to play Axis...
Anyway, I think your idea of recosting some unit could be a good idea. | |
CHAMPION OF THE ELDER BRAIN.
26 Completed transaction
17 trade completed Maxminis (13): Vrecknidj (2), AussieJim, Razarac, Ghendar, NixLord, Sir Bozak, kestrel, Sam500, yack, minatoman38, Brez and Aesnath.
Hordeling (4);rex,Brentos,greyhaze and greg cooper
Completed sale: (10)Whitehand,TwilightRaven,Melrune,Villiam, azuretide, Carta Magica, Vash/Trent, Korvax (hordeling), Kestrel and Olaf the stout. | |
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Sgt. Rock
Skirmisher
16 Posts
| | 09/29/2006 6:41 AM |
| I still feel the germans have the best units. Whermacht Expert sniper can with a high reliability pin down any opposing vehicle and make it vulnerable to incoming fire. Combined with cheap german armor and SSPG. makes the germans still the best IMO. | |
I like Ike! | |
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Narethkraag
Sergeant
848 Posts
| | 09/30/2006 8:46 AM |
| What I have seen in our games, is that in games larger than 100 pts, the Germans are very good units, even if they are always usually outnumbered by all the other armies........
Our games are always around 300 to 500 pt armies and bigger playfields ( 3x4 maps or more), which allow the German army to buy a lot of good units and support.
In bigger maps the best german tanks are capable of knocking down many tanks before engaging in mid-range, where their thick armours and powerful guns still allow them good opportunities against most armies. | |
my list:http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=narethkraag
completed trades: Capnfrank, Sturmkraehe, Jeff Wilder (x5), Mrfurious, Shinobi, Hockeyfan, Kyrin x2, Scepter, Archimagus, Enginer230, The Last Huzzah, War golem, RedSkullz
Definetely bad trader: Invictus | |
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XAos
Underboss
2384 Posts
London
| | 10/02/2006 4:27 AM |
| Posted By Sgt. Rock on 09/29/2006 6:41 AM I still feel the germans have the best units. Whermacht Expert sniper can with a high reliability pin down any opposing vehicle and make it vulnerable to incoming fire. Combined with cheap german armor and SSPG. makes the germans still the best IMO.Â
The Sherman Caliope, seems to be a deliberate counter to the sniper
(rocket barrage) If the sniper is not adjascent to any supporting
units, then a single paratrooper can kill it.
Since it's Anti-vehicle factor also gets the
benefit of ignoreing cover. The Hetzer, becomes much less
cost-effective. So the Axis just lost it's best "cheap german armour".
The Sherman Rhino is virtually immune to the Sniper. You can disrupt it, but it won't stop moving or shooting.
It's also largly unattackable by close assault (It's totally impossible for less than 7 SSPG's to get a single effective attack on it.)
I have played 4 shermans (including a Rhino) against 12-14 SSPG's and all you have to do is kill 6-8 & then have the Rhino contests the objective till turn-10. With enough bad attack rolls the shermans could loose. But the odds strongly favour them, even on the Urban map. And on "Tiger Heavan" the phrase "Turkey-Shoot" is the best description of what happens.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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CorneilleLoiseau
Sergeant
402 Posts
Qc, Canada
| | 10/02/2006 7:53 AM |
| All my game until now has been with 50, 100 or 120 pts so I can't tell for the german with 150 and more...
But in those format, I think that the US has the best unit... | |
CHAMPION OF THE ELDER BRAIN.
26 Completed transaction
17 trade completed Maxminis (13): Vrecknidj (2), AussieJim, Razarac, Ghendar, NixLord, Sir Bozak, kestrel, Sam500, yack, minatoman38, Brez and Aesnath.
Hordeling (4);rex,Brentos,greyhaze and greg cooper
Completed sale: (10)Whitehand,TwilightRaven,Melrune,Villiam, azuretide, Carta Magica, Vash/Trent, Korvax (hordeling), Kestrel and Olaf the stout. | |
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Sgt. Rock
Skirmisher
16 Posts
| | 10/02/2006 12:12 PM |
| Try this Army.
2 Whermacht expert snipers
3 Elite Panzers
1 Luftwaffe Inf
4 SSPG
The way to play it is
Turn 1- Use the snipers to disrupt as many different tanks as you can with headshot. Use the tanks to follow up and you should be able to damage them with a high reliablity. Â
March the SSPGs and other inf to the objective.
Turn 2- Use whatever survivng tanks to damage more tanks. If any tanks are already damaged do not fire at them unless you have nothing else to shoot at. Snipers go for opposing inf. SSPG move to objective or fire on inf depending on situation.Â
After that it's dependant on situation. Damaged shermans don't hit SSPG well and Close assult from a SSPG on a damaged sherman is pretty nasty.Â
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I like Ike! | |
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XAos
Underboss
2384 Posts
London
| | 10/04/2006 2:27 AM |
| | So Turns 1-6 will be 100points of US armour V's 77 points of Axis armour (and snipers) I hate to tell you, but a Pz-IVd is not as cost-effective as a sherman in a tank fight, that's provable, on the odds of scoreing hits V's a sherman. It's (marginal) advantage over the Sherman is that it's 117% as cost-effective V's infantry (because it's cheaper) But sherman swarms don't use infanry (except for a possible SE-Captain) So those 77 points of axis units would probably loose to 77 points of allied units. If they fight 100 points, They will be outnumbered 4 to 3 (by points). So they can't expect to destroy more than 2 shermans. And since the Sherman Rhinos(s) can keep moving while headshot/damaged. It's a virtual certainty that at least one Rhino will survive. Posted By Sgt. Rock on 10/02/2006 12:12 PM
After that it's dependant on situation. Damaged shermans don't hit SSPG well and Close assult from a SSPG on a damaged sherman is pretty nasty.Â
But it doesn't "depend on the situation" that's the whole point of playing a Rhino (and why the Rhino is brokenly good). It doesn't matter what those 4 SS-PG's do. They cannot effectivly contest the objective, even if the Rhino is damaged. This isn't a question of "lucky dice rolls", "good tactics" or anything else. It's as predictable as a known "end-game" position in chess.
Yes, a close assault against a damaged sherman would be nasty. But against a Damaged Rhino 5 infantry cannot force a close assault.Â
Try setting that up and playing turns 7-10 with a damaged Rhino V's those 5 infantry. You'll see that so long as the Rhino moves every phase. The infantry never get a close assault. They do get lots of defensive fire (using their Close Assault factor). But that can't have any significant effect on a Rhino.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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Sgt. Rock
Skirmisher
16 Posts
| | 10/04/2006 6:00 AM |
| Could you please post the build you are talking about. Basically from what I can tell is your saying that it comes down to an iniative roll on turn 10. If the Axis is forced to go first they lose. I stated earlier that the armor is just there to damage as many of the shermans as possible. They are pretty much sacrificed to any allied armor since they only have 3 def. Their whole point is to damage opposing armor so the SSPGs can mop up. The SSPG just sit on the objective they don't have to chase anyone if you come to me with a damaged vehicle I win. Again please post the entire build you are talking about and I will explain how I would play against it.Â
I think its somethign like
Screaming eagle captain
2 shermans
1 Sherman Rhino ( or some combination of shermans and rhinos) Â
Some other stuff | |
I like Ike! | |
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XAos
Underboss
2384 Posts
London
| | 10/04/2006 6:44 AM |
| A 4th Sherman or an Archer would do for the remainder of the points.
Or 2 Rhinos, Archer, SE-Captain, 2 Humbers.
Once set-5 is out I'd want either a Calliope or a Corsair in the force (just to hunt snipers)
I'm not assuming the SS-PG's chase anyone (since speed-1 obviously can't catch speed-4)
Remember the objective is 7 hexes not just one. And 5 infantry can't sit on more than 5 of those 7. The Rhino just sits in the 6th or 7th (i.e. adjascent to the SS-PG's)
I don't see how the turn-10 initiative matters. ??? If it were a ordinary sherman instead of a Rhino, then the allies would want to win initiative for turns 7-10. But with a Rhino the combination of Veteran Crew & Brushcutters make initiative irrelevant to the result (unless there are at least 7 SS-PG's).
Lets assume the axis go 2nd on turn-10, what happens;
Movement phase-1 the Rhino moves to an empty hex adjascent to the objective.
Movement phase-2, 2 of the SS-PG's move to the same hex as the rhino & the remaining 3 infantry deploy on/adjascent to the objective.
Assault phase 1, the rhino moves to another empty hex adjascent to the objective (taking multiple defensive fires, as it leaves the hex with 2 sspg's & possibly drives stright through the objective hex, Veteran Crew will let it effectivly ignore them all)
Assault phase-2, the Axis infantry are not in the same hex as the Rhino So they can't close assault it.
So the Rhino wins 26 points to the axis 23 points.
note, while it's likly the 2 snipers are still alive, it's also likely that one of the normal shermans is still alive so the points would be 47 to 45.
From what your writing, I suspect you have never fought with or against a Sherman Rhino. The tactics used by the Rhino look complex the first time you see them in writing. But in actual play, they are utterly obvious. i.e. a compleet newbie, might "invent them" just because any other moves by the Rhino are obviously suicidal. That's not just my opinion by the way. At the prerelease for set-2 these tactics were "invented" on the fly when a Rhino had to contest the objective with 2 enemy SE-paratroopers.
Analysing the limits of those tactics & proving they always work takes a little bit of thought. But it's no more complex than I have a queen & king & you have a king, so checkmate is inevitable.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
|
CorneilleLoiseau
Sergeant
402 Posts
Qc, Canada
| | 10/04/2006 11:40 AM |
| wow, what an explanation for a newbie in A&A like me! Xaos, could you describe some other good team and the tactics to play them. I can tell you a good team that I will like to test (I've not invented it but I think it is pretty good):
Churchill Crocodile
7 Defiants Paratroopers
1 Inspiring hero
The goal with this band is to:
Turn 1: go to the objective with the crocodile and keep the objective with him.
Turn 2 or later set up a big attack with the paratrooper that can move of 2 (make a deployement in diamond with the inspiring hero on the back) | |
CHAMPION OF THE ELDER BRAIN.
26 Completed transaction
17 trade completed Maxminis (13): Vrecknidj (2), AussieJim, Razarac, Ghendar, NixLord, Sir Bozak, kestrel, Sam500, yack, minatoman38, Brez and Aesnath.
Hordeling (4);rex,Brentos,greyhaze and greg cooper
Completed sale: (10)Whitehand,TwilightRaven,Melrune,Villiam, azuretide, Carta Magica, Vash/Trent, Korvax (hordeling), Kestrel and Olaf the stout. | |
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Narethkraag
Sergeant
848 Posts
| | 10/04/2006 12:38 PM |
| Posted By XAos on 10/04/2006 6:44 AM
A 4th Sherman or an Archer would do for the remainder of the points.
Or 2 Rhinos, Archer, SE-Captain, 2 Humbers.
Once set-5 is out I'd want either a Calliope or a Corsair in the force (just to hunt snipers)
I'm not assuming the SS-PG's chase anyone (since speed-1 obviously can't catch speed-4)
Remember the objective is 7 hexes not just one. And 5 infantry can't sit on more than 5 of those 7. The Rhino just sits in the 6th or 7th (i.e. adjascent to the SS-PG's)
I don't see how the turn-10 initiative matters. ??? If it were a ordinary sherman instead of a Rhino, then the allies would want to win initiative for turns 7-10. But with a Rhino the combination of Veteran Crew & Brushcutters make initiative irrelevant to the result (unless there are at least 7 SS-PG's).
Lets assume the axis go 2nd on turn-10, what happens;
Movement phase-1 the Rhino moves to an empty hex adjascent to the objective.
Movement phase-2, 2 of the SS-PG's move to the same hex as the rhino & the remaining 3 infantry deploy on/adjascent to the objective.
Assault phase 1, the rhino moves to another empty hex adjascent to the objective (taking multiple defensive fires, as it leaves the hex with 2 sspg's & possibly drives stright through the objective hex, Veteran Crew will let it effectivly ignore them all)
Assault phase-2, the Axis infantry are not in the same hex as the Rhino So they can't close assault it.
So the Rhino wins 26 points to the axis 23 points.
note, while it's likly the 2 snipers are still alive, it's also likely that one of the normal shermans is still alive so the points would be 47 to 45.
From what your writing, I suspect you have never fought with or against a Sherman Rhino. The tactics used by the Rhino look complex the first time you see them in writing. But in actual play, they are utterly obvious. i.e. a compleet newbie, might "invent them" just because any other moves by the Rhino are obviously suicidal. That's not just my opinion by the way. At the prerelease for set-2 these tactics were "invented" on the fly when a Rhino had to contest the objective with 2 enemy SE-paratroopers.
Analysing the limits of those tactics & proving they always work takes a little bit of thought. But it's no more complex than I have a queen & king & you have a king, so checkmate is inevitable.
 And there is still more going on for the Rhino, their ability to get into forests without a roll provides them with good cover and better movement rate than other tanks, if the terrain is suitable
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my list:http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=narethkraag
completed trades: Capnfrank, Sturmkraehe, Jeff Wilder (x5), Mrfurious, Shinobi, Hockeyfan, Kyrin x2, Scepter, Archimagus, Enginer230, The Last Huzzah, War golem, RedSkullz
Definetely bad trader: Invictus | |
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XAos
Underboss
2384 Posts
London
| | 10/05/2006 7:49 AM |
| Posted By CorneilleLoiseau on 10/04/2006 11:40 AM
Churchill Crocodile
7 Defiants Paratroopers
1 Inspiring hero
There are a couple of obvious tactical weaknesses in that force (that an opponent would try to exploit)
1) It's a "balenced" force of soldiers & vehicles. "Combined arms" is a strong tactic in a real WW-II battle. But in aam the opposite is true, you should use either a pure Vehicle or pure Soldier force. That makes all your opponents units that are selected to fight the opposing unit type, worthless. And it tends to over-saturate the fire-power of those units that are the correct type. e.g. a Single King Tiger can easily defeat 1 or 2 shermans, But against 3, 4 or 5 it simply won''t get enough shots to defeat them.
2) Defiant Paratroopers are basically an inferior form of SE-Paratrooper. With the one exception of allowing the use of Inspiring Heros.
But the restriction of only 1 Inspiring Hero, makes the 7 paratroopers dependant on a single commander to be tactically effective.
Stronge forces using infantry; The gencon winner used 15 heros+commanders+snipers i.e. a pure infantry force, see (1) above.
The specific force was axis with Japanese Sargents (Banzai) as the commander.
But paratroopers, with multiple Inspiring Heros should also work.
With the Heros limited to 1 per force. Those builds are illegal of course.
Posted By CorneilleLoiseau on 10/04/2006 11:40 AM
Xaos, could you describe some other good team and the tactics to play them.
I can't do that for the simple reason that vthere arn't any more to list. The problem with AAM is that each set adds another 1 or 2 uber-strong units (mostly US, though the heros were an exception). With the result that the strongest forces just remix the same few units. And with the heros limited to one per force, thats mostly US or US+UK.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
|
CorneilleLoiseau
Sergeant
402 Posts
Qc, Canada
| | 10/05/2006 10:52 AM |
| I don't understand! You said that the winning team at Gencon used a lot of heroes but you also said that there were a hero limit of 1. Did they put some restriction that I don't know about?
Thanks for all your writing, it helps me a lot!
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CHAMPION OF THE ELDER BRAIN.
26 Completed transaction
17 trade completed Maxminis (13): Vrecknidj (2), AussieJim, Razarac, Ghendar, NixLord, Sir Bozak, kestrel, Sam500, yack, minatoman38, Brez and Aesnath.
Hordeling (4);rex,Brentos,greyhaze and greg cooper
Completed sale: (10)Whitehand,TwilightRaven,Melrune,Villiam, azuretide, Carta Magica, Vash/Trent, Korvax (hordeling), Kestrel and Olaf the stout. | |
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Narethkraag
Sergeant
848 Posts
| | 10/05/2006 6:47 PM |
| | After that all hero army, there is now a 1 hero per band limit in organized play....... | |
my list:http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=narethkraag
completed trades: Capnfrank, Sturmkraehe, Jeff Wilder (x5), Mrfurious, Shinobi, Hockeyfan, Kyrin x2, Scepter, Archimagus, Enginer230, The Last Huzzah, War golem, RedSkullz
Definetely bad trader: Invictus | |
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