striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
    
 | | 05/22/2006 9:54 AM |
| So I was looking at the 20K fact sheet, which is at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dbm/op/20060518b, and I noticed something interesting.
According to the sheet, if we do a live demo we can get a $20 voucher towards the $40 registration. Mike or Jonathan could either of you explain this a little better. So if we have already ordered our event ticket, we can go down to the event desk with the voucher and get $20 back? Just trying to figure this one out.
Also, how do the bonus points for DCI work? I'm not sur eI completely understand that either.
Thanks, | |
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DaemonKain
Warrior
312 Posts
| | 05/22/2006 5:37 PM |
| This question was asked on the WoTC boards as well, and I don't think it's recieved an answer there... (was it you that asked?)
As for the points, Dreamblade doesn't use the system DDM uses, so you need to sort of put it out of mind. In Dreamblade, everyone starts from 0 points. You gain points by playing matches. You gain like 3 points if you win and 1 point if you lose. In addition, you gain major points for placing well in tournaments (these are the bonus points you refer to). It's kind of like a NASCAR cup structure, not that I follow NASCAR.
So over a season, you accumulate these points. I don't think that you lose points during a season, either from losing games or from some sort of point-decay structure. At the beginning of the next season, you reset to something like 25% of the points you had at the end of last season.
Does that answer the question? | |
-DaemonKain
Proud Mascot of Team Amish | |
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Arnminster
Warrior
296 Posts
| | 05/23/2006 11:04 AM |
| | I beleive that you can use vouchers to purchase event tickets and in the Dealer room. I'm not sure if you can get cash for them. | |
Champion of the Rust Monster
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 05/23/2006 2:35 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Arnminster
I beleive that you can use vouchers to purchase event tickets and in the Dealer room. I'm not sure if you can get cash for them.
So the question is, should I buy a ticket at $40 or do the demo and get a $20 voucher? If I can knock $20 off the price, that is great. | |
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Official Organizer
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Shivan Darkeyes
Warrior
266 Posts
| | 05/23/2006 2:43 PM |
| | I wonder if the $20 voucher can be used towards other events like the 1K constructed tournaments... | |
13th Place at the 2005 DDM Championship in GenCon | |
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Shining Knight
mdonais
Skirmisher
46 Posts
| | 05/27/2006 4:04 PM |
| The $20 voucher is given for playing a demo and lets you get into the championships for half price.
I don't really know the details but we are working on them now and will post them once we know what you should do.
I am guessing you can buy a $40 ticket and refund it at gencon and then buy a new one with the coupon. But I am not sure exactly how refunds work or how early it will fill up. I am guessing the dreamblade demos will have line ups also. I will try to get a lot of them to reduce that a bit.
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Mike Donais
WotC R&D | |
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Shining Knight
mdonais
Skirmisher
46 Posts
| | 05/27/2006 4:09 PM |
| Regarding DCI Ranking Points...
Dreamblade DCI Ranking points are accumulated by winning matches and by placing well in events, especially in big events like the 1k.
Everyone with 1000 DCI ranking points is qualified for the championships that happen in 14 months at GenCon.
First place at a 1k event gives +1000 points.
So a 1k event will be a bit like a qualifier except that if you place top 8 at several 1k events you will also qualify.
A 10k event gives about 2000 points for first place.(exact numbers are in the document)
It is more like a grand prix if you compare it to magic events.
Every year points are reset to one fourth of what you had. So if you had 1000 points you will have 250 towards qualifying next year.
This matches some major sports and is a pretty standard point accumulation system.
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Mike Donais
WotC R&D | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 05/29/2006 1:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by mdonais
Regarding DCI Ranking Points...
Dreamblade DCI Ranking points are accumulated by winning matches and by placing well in events, especially in big events like the 1k.
Everyone with 1000 DCI ranking points is qualified for the championships that happen in 14 months at GenCon.
First place at a 1k event gives +1000 points.
So a 1k event will be a bit like a qualifier except that if you place top 8 at several 1k events you will also qualify.
A 10k event gives about 2000 points for first place.(exact numbers are in the document)
It is more like a grand prix if you compare it to magic events.
Every year points are reset to one fourth of what you had. So if you had 1000 points you will have 250 towards qualifying next year.
This matches some major sports and is a pretty standard point accumulation system.
I kinda like that attrition system. | |
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Shining Knight
mdonais
Skirmisher
46 Posts
| | 05/29/2006 5:52 PM |
| Dreamblade Points do some other things also.
For example everyone who shows up with X points at a 10k gets a free promo die. Everyone who shows up with Y points gets a promo die and a promo mini. Etc.
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Mike Donais
WotC R&D | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 3:01 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by mdonais
Regarding DCI Ranking Points...
Dreamblade DCI Ranking points are accumulated by winning matches and by placing well in events, especially in big events like the 1k.
[snip]
Every year points are reset to one fourth of what you had. So if you had 1000 points you will have 250 towards qualifying next year.
This matches some major sports and is a pretty standard point accumulation system.
There's just one thing I really don't like about it. I don't like that it's called DCI points. I strongly associate a DCI rating with a elo chess system. I like that Magic and DDM DCI ratings are roughly comparable. If Dreamblade could avoid calling them DCI Ranking points, and give it a slightly different name without DCI in there, I wouldn't mind the difference between it and Magic or DDM nearly as much.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 8:46 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by mdonais
Dreamblade Points do some other things also.
For example everyone who shows up with X points at a 10k gets a free promo die. Everyone who shows up with Y points gets a promo die and a promo mini. Etc.
That is really a neat idea. It helps promote the concept of playing in more events. The thing I like the most is the idea of multiple levels of promos. Having the promo dice and minis ir really a cool idea. | |
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 8:48 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
quote:
Originally posted by mdonais
Regarding DCI Ranking Points...
Dreamblade DCI Ranking points are accumulated by winning matches and by placing well in events, especially in big events like the 1k.
Everyone with 1000 DCI ranking points is qualified for the championships that happen in 14 months at GenCon.
First place at a 1k event gives +1000 points.
So a 1k event will be a bit like a qualifier except that if you place top 8 at several 1k events you will also qualify.
A 10k event gives about 2000 points for first place.(exact numbers are in the document)
It is more like a grand prix if you compare it to magic events.
Every year points are reset to one fourth of what you had. So if you had 1000 points you will have 250 towards qualifying next year.
This matches some major sports and is a pretty standard point accumulation system.
I kinda like that attrition system.
So do I. You are not starting from scratch, but you can keep some of the points you earned from the previous year. | |
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2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 2:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by mdonais
Everyone who shows up with Y points gets a promo die and a promo mini. Etc.
Great idea. I'm assuming that Dreamblade promos are like DDM promos, in that they don't have different stats than the regular version? We're not talking about exclusives here right? | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Balduran I
Sergeant
404 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 9:18 PM |
| Hear hear.
Exclusives with better stats would be baaaaaad. Game changing, and not in a good way. I can't imagine WotC making that mistake. | |
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Shining Knight
mdonais
Skirmisher
46 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 10:42 PM |
| We didn't do exclusives with our other 3 Minis lines and we have no intention of doing it with dreamblade.
The same people are making the decisions etc.
So no worries. | |
Mike Donais
WotC R&D | |
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Minotaur
Skirmisher
4 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 2:27 AM |
| Frankly, I cannot think of a collectable Wizards game that gave away unique mechanic promos, minis, TCG or otherwise. So I would have been surprised to see one here. Thanks Mike for the info!
(Doh, just remember Magic did in the very early days but I dont think they have since 1995, over 10 years ago) | |
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Shivan Darkeyes
Warrior
266 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 4:41 AM |
| | Mana Crypt... *shudder* | |
13th Place at the 2005 DDM Championship in GenCon | |
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 11:09 AM |
| | Nice to see they will be keeping the same concept going with promos... not exclusive. | |
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2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 11:15 AM |
| Yeah, I figured they wouldn't be exclusives, and I'm glad to have that confirmed.
I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on some Dreamblade. [:)] | |
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 11:26 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
Yeah, I figured they wouldn't be exclusives, and I'm glad to have that confirmed.
I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on some Dreamblade. [:)]
Now I think the dice could be exclusive...
"I've got my exclusive Dreamscape dice, do you?"
"Do they roll the same?"
"Yes."
"Then good for you."
It would be cool to have some exclusive dice though. | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4459 Posts
| | 06/09/2006 1:03 PM |
| I have to say Im a bit enamored of this point system... looking at the problems that people have been referencing with DDM and the DCI points, has there been any conversation in WotC about moving to this system for all the mini games?
quote:
So the question is, should I buy a ticket at $40 or do the demo and get a $20 voucher? If I can knock $20 off the price, that is great.
Heh... well, I already bought the tickets! I hope we can get the discount/credit on site.
Pat E | |
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dj-chuckles
Underboss
2452 Posts
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lynchpt
Sergeant
925 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 7:53 AM |
| Originally posted by PatEllis15
quote:
I have to say Im a bit enamored of this point system... looking at the problems that people have been referencing with DDM and the DCI points, has there been any conversation in WotC about moving to this system for all the mini games?
What problems with DCI are you talking about? I think the current system works great [:D].
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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Shining Knight
mdonais
Skirmisher
46 Posts
| | 06/24/2006 3:36 AM |
| One of the biggest problems we have is pros won't play in many events because they don't want to risk losing their rankings.
Dreamblade doesn't have that problem. It works the opposite way. People with points will go to events to get more points plus to get the free gifts you get for showing up at 10ks if you have points.
This problem wasn't just for Magic either, many DDM players were avoiding events because of possible ratings loss. | |
Mike Donais
WotC R&D | |
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Shivan Darkeyes
Warrior
266 Posts
| | 06/24/2006 4:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by mdonais
One of the biggest problems we have is pros won't play in many events because they don't want to risk losing their rankings.
Dreamblade doesn't have that problem. It works the opposite way. People with points will go to events to get more points plus to get the free gifts you get for showing up at 10ks if you have points.
This problem wasn't just for Magic either, many DDM players were avoiding events because of possible ratings loss.
I am MOSTLY in favor of the new system. One large problem I have with it though is that it doesn't factor in the difficulty of the opponent played. In theory a 10K could happen in Idaho (Sorry Idaho) and four people could show up and the participants would gain the same amount of points as those in a major qualifier like perhaps Chicago. Players should be rewarded for beating difficult fields more than players that hide in another state.
And don't think that there won't be some players that attempt to take advantage of "weaker" locations. This DDM season proved that people are willing to drive to other states to have a better chance of qualifying. | |
13th Place at the 2005 DDM Championship in GenCon | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 06/24/2006 11:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by mdonais
One of the biggest problems we have is pros won't play in many events because they don't want to risk losing their rankings.
Dreamblade doesn't have that problem. It works the opposite way. People with points will go to events to get more points plus to get the free gifts you get for showing up at 10ks if you have points.
This problem wasn't just for Magic either, many DDM players were avoiding events because of possible ratings loss.
I really like - a lot - that this system is *encouraging* players who have been the most successful in prior events to go to even more events! This strikes me as exactly the way it should be, as opposed to the way it is currently in DDM, where there are significant incentives for players to NOT go to additional qualifiers, due not only to potential rating loss in some rare cases, but more often due to other players' disapproval and/or to avoid taking a spot from other local players.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
925 Posts
| | 06/24/2006 11:56 PM |
| More seriously, I like the new system for exactly the reason of encouraging play. And for a new game that lives or dies by the tournament scene, they need to encourage as much play as possible.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 06/25/2006 12:03 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Shivan Darkeyes
I am MOSTLY in favor of the new system. One large problem I have with it though is that it doesn't factor in the difficulty of the opponent played. In theory a 10K could happen in Idaho (Sorry Idaho) and four people could show up and the participants would gain the same amount of points as those in a major qualifier like perhaps Chicago. Players should be rewarded for beating difficult fields more than players that hide in another state.
Overall, I'm not sure if I will like the new system. What I'm sure of, however, is that regardless of if the new system is good, I'm disappointed that they're switching from the old system. See, I love the elo system in terms of a fun stat that measures how well a player has done. Regardless of how it's used in OP terms, I'm in favor of most every type of game I ever play keeping track of that stat, because it's an awesome stat. Sadly, I can assume that Dreamblade won't keep track of that stat at all. [:(] The new system may or may not be much better for OP, but even if it is, that won't outweigh, for me, the disappointment in not being able to track my elo rating.
Secondly, a points accumulation system could be fine. I'm not sure whether or not I will like this exact implementation of such a system. Getting 1 pt for a Loss, and only 2 for a Win? And getting far, far more than the equivalent of 25 wins for a high place in any of the big tournaments? Eh, I don't know. However, as per my normal rule, I will withhold judgement on the system until after I've seen it in practice for awhile.
quote:
And don't think that there won't be some players that attempt to take advantage of "weaker" locations. This DDM season proved that people are willing to drive to other states to have a better chance of qualifying.
Well, actually, the nice thing is that that will slightly mitagate the problem of low attendance itself. If $10k is up for grabs in Alaska, attendance won't be high... but the lure of easy money and easy points will bring people from a little farther than they otherwise would've traveled. Okay, maybe not as far as Alaska... but you get the idea. [:)]
So the fact that the same amount of money and other prizes is on the line regardless of attendance will itself tend to even out (somewhat) large disrepancies in attendance. From an OP standpoint, I'm sure that's a good thing.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 06/27/2006 9:45 AM |
| I like the new system. I think it will keep players playing and wanting to attend the big events. I also like the fact that you can only carry over a percentage of your points from year to year.
Also with the concept of getting more points if you attend certain events... how is that different from the different K values at events? The formula might be different but the concept is similiar. | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 6:28 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by striderlotr
Also with the concept of getting more points if you attend certain events... how is that different from the different K values at events? The formula might be different but the concept is similiar.
Actually, it's a lot different. I don't want the following to sound like I'm going off on you over one small comment, but I do want to explain to anyone who's curious just how different the two systems really are in this regard.
In DDM (or Magic), a big event might be worth double K-value. That basically means that a single win at this event is equivalent to beating the same opponent twice in a row in a normal event. Likewise, a loss hurts as much as two losses at a normal event.
In Dreamblade it's much different. Not necessarily better, or worse... but far different than merely a double K-value in DDM. Let's compare the number of points the first place player in a local Edge tournament gets, compared to the points the LAST place player at the $20K event gets.
For some reason, let's say the Edge tournament gets HUGE numbers. 135 people. This affects the first place person's points gained because it causes a few more rounds of play, so he gets 2 more points per additional win. He goes, oh, 11-0 since we'll assume there was a top 8 finals, and we'll assume he never lost a game. He gets 22 points for the 11 wins, plus 12 points for winning an Edge tournament. Total = 32 points.
Conversely, a player goes to the $20k event. There's a ton of people, I think the fact sheet says there will be ten rounds. He goes 0-10, so gains 10 points. He also gains 100 points for placing 65+. Total gained, 110 points. Even a 1k event gives +50 points to every participant. Additionally, the top 64 get such a high amount of bonus points, that the *average* number of points gained amongst all participants, assuming a full 500 players, is another +60 above and beyond the 100 points everyone gets, for 160 total. In an Edge tournament, the top 8 alone only average +5 bonus points.
Therefore, simply going to the cash prize events is ALWAYS better for your DCI points than winning a smaller event is. Likewise, total average point gain per round per player in a really big event is like more than 5 times the point gain per round per player of a smaller event. That's not much like DDM's system.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 8:58 AM |
| Dagni, the point I was making is that if you go to a big event you will earn more point. So if it is DDM or DB the bigger events will earn you a better chance to earn more points. You are correct that the chance to lose points faster in DDM if you lose is there as well, but DB is working on a always upword point system, even a lose is a point.
You response above is correct, and maybe I worded my statement in a not so clear manner, but the bigger events will gain you more points.
Now in retrospect, if you can attend a weekly Edge event and earn 22 points a week, you will earn 88. As the 1K events will be monthly and rotating (not always in the same location OR state) you earn 32 for that one event.
This system is set up for tounament play. The more you play the more points you get. So playing every week as oppossed to playing once a month will be a big deal. Now if you win, then those numbers go right out the window. I'll bet that people go crazy and play in as many Edge events that they can, not only for practice, but to gain as many low points as they can. Then they will hit all the local 1K (and if lucky 10K) events to go for the big points. In the end I'll bet it will be someone who is playing in Edge events and big events who has the most points. | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 9:42 AM |
| Yeah, sure, but in Dreamblade the big events give so much more than the small events as to make the small events less and less meaningful. That's what I mean by it being so different. There's a couple orders of magnitude difference between DDM and this. Multiply by 2 vs more like multiply by 8. To me that's a HUGE difference, that I guess I would say dwarfs the similarities.
There will be what, 20(?) 1k events per month? So if a person takes the time to *travel* to ONE extra 1k event each month, that will help his DCI points more than playing in a good 5 more Edge tournaments, I'd guess. In DDM the absolute biggest tourney is double as valuable as a normal one. In Dreamblade a really, really conservative estimate makes the 20k 5 times as valuable! A more realistic scenario is probably 10 times!
Likewise it would take half of year of consistantly winning weekly Edge tournaments to make the difference between first and second place at the 20k event, for example. Again, the final game between Fenris and brez was worth double points - the final game in Dreamblade 20k (500 points at stake) is worth more like 50 times the value of an entire normal tournament!
My prediction is that the points leader at the end of the year might play in plenty of Edge tournaments, but if you took every one of those tournaments away, he'd still be ahead of second place. It will be from among the players who won one or more 10k (or 20k) events, the player that went to and probably did extremely well at the most other 1k or bigger events.
I'm not sure this is a bad thing - I think it's good for the game to encourage players to go out of their way to play in the big tournaments.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 10:04 AM |
| With 20 1K events a month, how many do you think people will be able to make? There are 50 states and some of them are pretty big. If WotC ran 1 a month per state, it would not be until month 3 that we would see repeats.
I agree that the top players will be the ones who are winning the major tournemants, but I disagree that the edge events will be so meaningless. So if we each win 3 1K events and 1 10K event, but you play in 5 more edge tounaments then me... it would appear you would be the higher point total. Also with 3 1K and 1 10K our points would be very similiar, not exact, but very simliar. | |
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Shivan Darkeyes
Warrior
266 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 12:44 PM |
| | My MAJOR beef with the system, that still hasn't really been addressed is that the system doesn't reward the invidiual for the strength of the opponent played. I could play the GenCon Champion, and win and only get 2 points while you could play someone who has never played the game before and get... 2 points. This seems backwards to me. I think that the system should reward you for beating harder players. | |
13th Place at the 2005 DDM Championship in GenCon | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 8:56 PM |
| Shivan, that's where I think the system takes a different approach, but it works out that more often than not, it DOES reward you for facing tougher opposition.
In you example, you only get 2 points either way. See above, to realize that in my opinion you just got a meaningless number of points either way. In my opinion, it would be much more reasonable to get ~4 points per win. Make winning, in and of itself, matter at least a little.
Irregardless, in normal situations it barely matters whether or not you win or not, so why should it matter who you beat if you did win? The games that DO matter are the ones that are late in a big tournament. Yeah, if you're facing a newb in the final match of a 10k, you'll get just as many hundreds of points (not sure how many points first gets over second in a 10k) whether you beat a newb or the best player in the world. But, umm, you won't be playing a newb, or if he is, the newb is STILL one of the best players in the world!
So I think that it does take player strength into account, just not in the same way. Arguably, it does a worse job of it, in that maybe some 1K events will have low numbers and few great players, whereas others will be stacked with huge numbers and a ton of talent. On the other hand... those events will still give out just as much money, not just the bonus points! If the money is still the same, maybe the points should be as well.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
|