PatEllis15
Commander
4458 Posts
    
 | | 06/22/2006 4:53 PM |
| OK: To those of the MaxMinis crew that happened to be in Washington State today, spill the beans!
I'm sure there is a bunch of stuff you CAN'T say, not asking you to break what ever requests were made of you from WotC. BUT, you can share more of your thoughts into the pieces that have been released, how things play with "pro's" etc.
Thanks guys!
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 5:14 AM |
| So, first off, I love the mechanics. I don't have a clue about what more than 30 or so of the pieces do and the combos you can create, but it's a cool system. You can glean some info from my post in general, but here's some more dirt ...
The factions are all very consistent. Pieces don't tend to have abilities outside the norm for their faction (at least in this set to my knowledge).
The game plays FAST. At least if you know what you're doing.
I like the "count number of turns won and not total score" mechanic. I wonder if that can somehow be worked into DDM ... it would change the game significantly but makes for a game that is far more competitive down to the wire.
There truly aren't alot of "worthless" minis. Once more sets come out obviously the truly constructed-worthy minis in this set will drop off, but for now just about everything I've seen is reasonably playable.
The boxes have a nice heft to them. You feel like you're buying something.
Once you figure out the nuances, the game is incredibly easy to play.
They did ask that we not spoil all the stats as they were doing a gigantic demo push in the next few weeks.
I showed ShivanDarkeyes how to make simple modifications to VASSAL mods.
The one thing that REALLY impressed me is that they spent alot of time asking us what we thought of the game and seemed to care about what we thought. They also were keenly interested in our thoughts around organized play. Dreamblade will be somewhat between Magic and DDM ... with the simplicity and financial incentives of Magic (and what that brings) plus the spatial / cognitive folks who like minis in general. | |
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2004 D&D Miniatures Champion
Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 5:15 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15
OK: To those of the MaxMinis crew that happened to be in Washington State today, spill the beans!
I'm sure there is a bunch of stuff you CAN'T say, not asking you to break what ever requests were made of you from WotC. BUT, you can share more of your thoughts into the pieces that have been released, how things play with "pro's" etc.
Thanks guys!
Pat E
Yeah, no posting stats. But we can talk about abilities, strategy, gameplay, that sort of th thing. We can also talk about our overall "impression" of various different figures.
I'll make sure I post back here when I'm not running on fumes. Some impressions coming tomorrow or Saturday. | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1775 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 5:17 AM |
| Going into Dreamblade day I was probably the most negative of the group. I tried it before and really was not a fan, plus I was set out to dislike it compared to DDM. 24 hours of almost solid gaming later, I am a HUGE fan! The constructed play of the game is wickedly cool and sealed is really interesting. They took the best traits of so many game lines (Magic, DDM, Chess, Anachronism) and merged them together in a great package.
I will be writing something on the plane on the way home, but for now I need sleep. | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4458 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 9:12 AM |
| Wow! Brad is a convert! Still a dual worhsipper I hope!
SO, I'm interested to hear how the WotC crew reacted to the general setiment that seems to have been shared with them of "why this theme". Having only pushed hte pieces around by myself to date, I like hte mechanics, but I too worry that this game will implode like Hecatomb did.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts guys!
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 10:20 AM |
| The general thought on the theme was that ...
"It's dreams so you can do anything"
... meaning that they could react and in a follow on set produce whatever kind of things they want - it all can happen in your dreams. They believe the game
They also added the Valor faction to respond to just that point ... they had done some research on Hecatomb and added the "good guys" because the research suggested that they needed that.
I'm still digesting the game itself. Brad is spot-on thought - the game itself plays wickedly cool and has fun levels of strategy. I spent a few hours chatting while the others were playing and when I picked up the dice again everyone that had been playing was moving their pieces on a whole different level - it was pretty darn amazing. | |
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2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 11:20 AM |
| Awesome! So, you guys who got to play a bunch of games, can you share some thoughts on strategy?
For example, in the proxy games I've played, I've sometimes tried not aggressively contesting the first few turns, but rather letting my opponent win so that I can gain better board control/position. This has generally failed, since I'm not able to maintain that position long enough to capitalize and win more turns back myself. And, a lost (or won) initiative at the wrong time screws up this plan somewhat too, it seems. What are your general thoughts on whether an effort should be made to get an early turn lead vs get superior board control early? Is this really even an either/or thing?
Also, it seems to me that controlling the center of the board is just as important in Dreamblade as it is in chess. You've played more games, do you agree?
A follow-up on that, when disrupting minis, did you tend to always block the center square of the opponent's spawn row with a weak creature to prevent him spawning new (more powerful) creatures there next turn? This has been a common tactic in the games I've played.
More questions as I thnk of them. [:D] | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 1:19 PM |
| Some of those tactics are defaults ... disrupting to the back row, etc. However ...
Now that we've seen some of the figures and the wonky abilities, that clearly isn't the case. I played with one of Mike Donais constructed bands last night (poorly) but by the end of the game I had a much clearer idea about how it worked. It had alot of figures with skirmish and advance (sometimes both, sometimes multi-blades of those) and figures with the charge ability (make a 6 dice attack when you enter a square). There was at least one point in time where the right choice was to disrupt his guy to the 4 point square (close to me) so I could gang-buster him with a serious of charge moves from the blades.
It also became apparrent to me that once alot of things are on the board it might be better to stick then even in my close/left corner to make it harder on my opponent to get multiple figures converging on me. When you keep shoving folks on the spawn row they can link up in 2s and 3s and come in for a nice combined attack.
My general feel though is that in the early game it's better to get a few pieces out there to start controlling zones on the board. Some of the larger pieces work much better as early-game pieces (there's some piece with something like strikeback or ambush or something that hits you when you move into its square). On about the 3rd spawn phase you should have some sort of serious maniuplative piece on the board.
ShivanDarkeyes and klyngster have just about a full spoiler list now. One of the caveats to this event was that we were asked NOT to spoil the stats and wait for the demo program to kick into gear. I would expect though that a VASSAL mod could be ready to go by that time as well (week or so).
Looking multiple turns ahead is VERY tough in this game at times. Alot of the blade abilities that I've seen thus far are position-changing (push, pull, etc.) and those are very difficult to predict. | |
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2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 1:53 PM |
| Cool, thanks for the info.
We're mostly proxying sealed out here, not constructed, since that'll be the format of the big show at Gencon. So we don't tend to have focused armies really.
How long did a game of yours typically take? How about when two WotC employees played each other, how long then? | |
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Arnminster
Warrior
296 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 4:10 PM |
| Guys,
Thanks for sharing the info. I am looking forward even more now to the release event at GenCon.
If any WotC officials are looking - When is the demo schedule going to be released? (Sorry if this was asked and answered already) | |
Champion of the Rust Monster
Proud Member of Team Amish | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1339 Posts
| | 06/23/2006 11:04 PM |
| | I know that delegates have been given the go-ahead to start scheduling demos beginning August 1. | |
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DDM Constructed Champion 2006
derry
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 06/24/2006 1:42 AM |
| | Delegates can schedule demos for July 1st and later. I have two scheduled for July 1st. | |
Member of the Low Post Count but High Post Content Society | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1775 Posts
| | 06/24/2006 1:50 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
Awesome! So, you guys who got to play a bunch of games, can you share some thoughts on strategy?
Sure!
quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
For example, in the proxy games I've played, I've sometimes tried not aggressively contesting the first few turns, but rather letting my opponent win so that I can gain better board control/position. This has generally failed, since I'm not able to maintain that position long enough to capitalize and win more turns back myself. And, a lost (or won) initiative at the wrong time screws up this plan somewhat too, it seems. What are your general thoughts on whether an effort should be made to get an early turn lead vs get superior board control early? Is this really even an either/or thing?
I saw games go 5-0 and end 5-6. In fact its fairly common to be down 3 or 4 before you start really fighting. The control and combo bands definatly give up a few rounds. the combat is an abstract system though. Board position is helpful but not everything and you may give up the win for a few turns and still have better position then your opponent. Having a lead does give a small advantage. If you tie on die rolls the player with more wins goes first. Or if your opponent has 5 rounds you have to be VERY careful about something sneaking in the backfield and stealing the victory.
quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
Also, it seems to me that controlling the center of the board is just as important in Dreamblade as it is in chess. You've played more games, do you agree?
The center often has a lot of fights in it but you could effectively ignore it with the right strategy. Theres also some pieces that really screw over someone taking one spot. For example a location that gives all your guys in a square a combat bonus can really hurt them.
quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
A follow-up on that, when disrupting minis, did you tend to always block the center square of the opponent's spawn row with a weak creature to prevent him spawning new (more powerful) creatures there next turn? This has been a common tactic in the games I've played.
More often I found I sent them to the far corners to make them need 3 or more shifts to reach the combat again. Weak stuff I sometimes disrupted to MY side of the board to attack and get to use blade abilities on.
Of course constructed play is a lot different then sealed. Theres some movement bands that can get a dragon on your opponents side of the board the turn it comes out and attack with it! Some shooting or combo bands can go off where ever they are.
quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
More questions as I thnk of them. [:D]
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Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 06/24/2006 2:14 PM |
| Valor has a ton of movement abilities - skirmish and advance on blades and a few move-during-spawn-phase entries. Combined with Charge 6 on the one mini (forget which) you can impact things as you skirmish and advance. Charg
Passion seems to have alot of push/pull abilities as well. There's also a figure in this faction w/ Ambush 6 (or something close). These two types of bands could execute quite a bit of battlefield control w/ their blade abilities.
*sigh*
The mechanics in this game are excellent ... the last thing I needed was another CMG ... I have to make more space in the office for another set of minis ... | |
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Shivan Darkeyes
Warrior
266 Posts
| | 06/24/2006 4:04 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Passion seems to have alot of push/pull abilities as well. There's also a figure in this faction w/ Ambush 6 (or something close). These two types of bands could execute quite a bit of battlefield control w/ their blade abilities.
I think you actually mean FEAR. It has abilities like Scare (move an unengaged enemy away), Expel (move an engaged enemy in any direction) and Ambush as you mentioned. | |
13th Place at the 2005 DDM Championship in GenCon | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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maineman
Sneak
90 Posts
| | 06/25/2006 9:57 AM |
| THANKS for the infor on this game. When I read about it, I was not that impressed, but you guys may have changed my mind... now if I only I knew where the extra $$$ will come from to collect two games!!
When is Dreamblade gonna be on sale in stores? And, what day is the tourney at Gen Con?
thanks,
Kent in Maine | |
How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are? | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4458 Posts
| | 06/25/2006 12:21 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by maineman
THANKS for the infor on this game. When I read about it, I was not that impressed, but you guys may have changed my mind... now if I only I knew where the extra $$$ will come from to collect two games!!
When is Dreamblade gonna be on sale in stores? And, what day is the tourney at Gen Con?
thanks,
Kent in Maine
it is on sale the week before GenCon... the Big dreamblade Tournament is Saturday (limited, $20,000 in prizes) and a smaller constructed event is on Sunday.
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |
lynchpt
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 06/25/2006 3:06 PM |
| Cross posted from General, but it probably belongs here.
I'll chime in with a few random observations.
The WotC folks explicitly said that they weren't tryin gto "convert" dedicated DDM players - they just wanted to get opinions from people who were passionate about some of their other product lines (DDM and SWM). Obviously they hoped that we would get enthusiastic about Dreamblade and at least talk it up and help creat some favorable buzz.
I think the WotC folks will get what they wanted. I love the new game, and I think most of the players there were very favorably impressed. At the same time, I (and most or all of the others I spoke to as well) am not going to change my primary focus from DDM. I enjoy the game too much (and have invested too much in it ) to change. For me, the setting makes the crucial difference - the D&D setting makes DDM so much better than just a nice rule set.
But speaking of rule sets: It's my opinion that, flavor aside, Dreamblade is a superior rule set for a highly competitive tournament game. It's also not a "better" skirmish game than DDM - it's really a substantially different type of game that satisfies a different itch. As Jonathon Tweet succinctly said, Dreamblade is more about strategy while the other mini games they produce focus more on tactics. One focus is not better than the other.
The new Dreamblade DCI system encourages playing because you get 1 pt for a loss and two for a win (and bonus points for high finishes at big events). This means that at local events, there is no huge downsides to playing with more experimental warbands. I'm looking forward to playing much more casually than I can do in DDM.
Dreamblade is different enough from DDM that DDM players don't have a big built in advantage in learning DB over other gamers or maybe even new gamers. With the money involved, plenty of people will be spending lots of practice time on Dreamblade. I think that the amount of practice needed will make it hard for someone to be excellent at both games at the tournament level. Dagni may prove me wrong, though .
Like often happens with DDM, the pieces look better in the hand than they do in online pictures. All being large must help with their visual quality. There is a lot of detail on the sculpts.
I got to go to Dreamblade Day because I killed the right people.
The game in my opinion is not as visually "dark" as Hecatomb, although it is probably moreso than is DDM. A good number of the minius are just kind of weird (like Pick-Pick) more than evil looking. And plenty of DDM orcs and such are evil looking too.
WotC is doing their absolute best to make sure this game succeeds, because they truly believe it is the best game they have produced in years. They are definitely proceeding as though this game will be around for years to come. They are not trying to pump some quick profits from this thing. That is wise because the "generic" theme probably will not be an aid to initial sales, although its flexibility should help the game play in the long term.
Dreamblade benefits from a "detailed" demo that explains the options open to one at every stage. The rules are very clean and clear upon first reading, but the depth of strategic decisions available just don't jump out at you until you play the game until you play a few times, or have someone knowlegeable show you the first time.
Soon after launch, I plan to release an updated version of the CPG (sealed booster generator) that accomodates Dreamblade.
I can see a lot of good reasons why one might decide not to seriously collect or play Dreamblade, but I think people who enjoy strategy games (and not just necessarily miniatures games) owe it to themselves to give the game a try at a demo. WotC is doing its best to ensure you can hardly avoid running across a demo somewhere in the next few months
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 06/25/2006 3:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
I think the smaller is a 1k, which is a $500 first place prize (I think it is $500, $300, $100, $100).
I asked about the prize distribution - the 20k they expect to have prizes down to 16th or 32nd position I think.
At the Release Championship event, the cash prizes are as follows (from the Premier Event Invitation Policy):
1 - $2300
2 - $1500
3 - $1100
4 - $900
5-8 - $750
9-16 - $500
17-32 - $250
33-64 - $100
The document doesn't speak to this, but I would not be surprised if some boosters were given out to some number of spots lower than 64.
Also, accorsing to the GenCon website, registration is closed for the Release event. Is this closure temporary? It will almost certainly be opened again by the time GenCon starts. I expect a lot of walkups for this event. Right now, the website indicates that 68 people have pre-registered.
Pat Lynch
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Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 06/25/2006 11:35 PM |
| I know you guys have been asked to not share all the spoilers. However, I think it would be great, in anticipation of the $20k Sealed event, if you guys could post simply the NAMES of the commons and uncommons you got in your Starter(s) and Booster(s). If you kept track, preferably seperately, but even a pool of 23 minis that were from a Starter and Booster posted together could still help determine or guess at the exact Sealed distribution.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 1:03 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Dagni
I know you guys have been asked to not share all the spoilers. However, I think it would be great, in anticipation of the $20k Sealed event, if you guys could post simply the NAMES of the commons and uncommons you got in your Starter(s) and Booster(s). If you kept track, preferably seperately, but even a pool of 23 minis that were from a Starter and Booster posted together could still help determine or guess at the exact Sealed distribution.
- Dagni
Dumb me forgot to ask one of the designers when I was there, but I'm going to ask whether they can tell me the distribution for purposes of updating the CPG (booster generator). Shoe has already told me he can help me out with WotDQ, but only after the release. | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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MrWalrus
Sneak
76 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 10:23 PM |
| I work at a game store and we've been playing Dreamblade since the virtual starter set came out. One of the major things that I've noticed is that you don't necessarily need to fight to win. Scoring Conquest points is how you win a round, and in many cases it's easier to score Conquest points by shifting twice to get pieces into high value cells while using tougher pieces to engage enemies and deny them points.
I also think that the Dominate ability is going to be huge, if used properly. It allows the piece with Dominate to score Conquest points for a cell even if it is contested. | |
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 06/27/2006 9:31 AM |
| Ah, what a game!!! If your are playing competetive gaming and not playing Dreamblade then you are missing out! If you are only playing DDM for the tournaments and not for the fun of it, you need to try Dreamblade.
The game play is fast and furious. It can be played rather quickly and it is a game that you can come back to win, even if losing. As an example Kiddoc was losing to me 4-0, he came back to pull ahead 5-4, and then I won in the end 6-5. And even then it was less then an hour to play that out.
The minis are great. The sculpts look fantastic and the clear plastics are awesome. There are even some great D&D RPG pieces that I know some DMs were looking at. It is a little dark, but so are many dreams. The Valor Aspect would be the "good" guys in this game... right now. I was pestering them about adding another aspect to the game as a "good" faction, maybe hope or faith, but they were not able to comment.
The special abilites/blade abilities are well thought out. The blade abilites can really change a game with a few simple rolls. You are not garunteed to get a blade roll on the dice, but if you do, they can be very powerful. Some of the abilities include the ability to move enemies, move allies, ranged attacks, extra damage, and some negative ones as well with fumbles and forced disruption.
Disruption is an interesting twist. You might not lose your mini, but having it sent to a non helpful space is a real pain. This can be very beneficial during a game as the strike-back/death-blow can be brutal.
I'll post some more with a write up of a game later, just wanted to add my 2 cents quickly. | |
Sean Banks
Champion of Elementals
Official Organizer
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