froffenhoffer
Sergeant
702 Posts
    
 | | 11/07/2006 9:04 AM |
| How often do you want to include 3 of 1 peice in a band,due to the damage that can do to your spawn curve? I know some figures are v v good, but how many do you want 3 of.
Also what is the ideal number of peices (generally) to have between 2-3 spawn cost(inclusive for those penickity people. | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3456 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 11/07/2006 10:16 AM |
| | I've noticed that few of the top bands triple up on any piece. If they do, it's at the low end, with a piece like the Cannibal Pariah. You can afford to triple up on a low spawn cost piece, because that helps to fill holes in your spawn curve. Tripling up on a high-spawn piece is generally going to be a bad idea. The exception is if you build your band to take advantage of energize abilities. If you play two Heartsblood Temples and a Bloodhawk Barag, for example, you've probably moved your average spawn from 8 up to 10 or 12, and you have the ability to bump a low spawn result if you need to get a high-spawn piece out at a critical time. In that case, you could possibly afford to triple up on an expensive piece, like a Dreadmorph Ogre. As far as how many you'd want to triple up on? Probably no more than 1 in any band. If you triple up on 2 or more pieces in one warband, you've slashed the flexibility of your band and probably created plenty of bad matchups. | |
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DMG
Sneak
107 Posts
Dallas
| | 11/07/2006 1:57 PM |
| I think in the end, two or three sets down the road, a question like this will simply be determined by a warband's focus. If x effect is really really good and necessary for your band's focus, then 3 pieces with x will be nice. Look at the Voodoo Manipulator and Reaper. Those pieces are really good but they need
other support to make them really rock the house.
There may or may not already be pieces that it is worth having 3 of in a band - who knows - I dont think Baxar's has been wrung for all its worth yet - more is yet to be seen. | | | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 11/07/2006 10:35 PM |
| If I had 3 Scarab Warcharms........yeah, I'd use all 3.
The only thing I usually tripple up on is the Blight Rat, and only in an Ekyon/Hellbred Band. I haven't run that since Baxars came out. Faragdar is right, bad matchups are more likely in a band with a great many dupes. That said, a local guy runs a weird 8 piece band that has 2 of everything. Another (same player) has 3 Parriahs 3 Zombies and a Barbstrider all to fuel Appease/Corpsebuilt/Thanatomancy. This has not worked badly Especially with Baxar out. He has dupes of the Spikers/KoAG as well.
I personally like to be able to spawn multiple Weenies in turns after the first when running Mono-Fear. Swarming the board has advantages and removes the "bad spawn" handicap. It is a bad idea in hybrid bands however. Of course if you are running 3 aspects I can't see a reason to use duplicates of much. | |
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Gryfalia
Sneak
76 Posts
| | 11/08/2006 8:36 AM |
| I use three Pearlthorn castles in my Brighthammer band. Just keep moving him around and whacking stuff. I do need to add a Heart Thief to make sure I always get use of my Castles..the hammerman doesn't do too much by himself!
Gryfalia | |
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XAos
Underboss
2378 Posts
London
| | 11/10/2006 5:44 AM |
| With only 16 figures total, a warband can't afford triples of many pieces.
As Faragdar said, it can distort the spawn curve to have 3 creatures with the same cost.
Also you need a spread of unit types both to build your own combo & to counter opposing combos.
e.g. You can't just play 3 kt.S&J in a warband. for that unit to work. You also need a lot of units with "Advance" (to counteract "Defender")
And additional units with high attack powers.
A strong warband design simply doesn't have room for 3 of each creature in it. You have to reduce the numbers to make everything fit with the 16 unit.
Just on spawn-curve criteria. It would be a very unusual warband that used 3 of any figure with a spawn cost higher than 5.
The only exception I have so far seen is 3xDarkHeartCottage. And that warband design has the specific strategy of building a solid line of locations across the scoring cells.
At spawn cost-5 or below triples are more commonly played. The Scarab Warcharm being the obvious example.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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JJ
Skirmisher
6 Posts
| | 11/10/2006 6:04 AM |
| Posted By XAos on 11/10/2006 5:44 AM
With only 16 figures total, a warband can't afford triples of many pieces.
As Faragdar said, it can distort the spawn curve to have 3 creatures with the same cost.
Also you need a spread of unit types both to build your own combo & to counter opposing combos.
e.g. You can't just play 3 kt.S&J in a warband. for that unit to work. You also need a lot of units with "Advance" (to counteract "Defender")
And additional units with high attack powers.
A strong warband design simply doesn't have room for 3 of each creature in it. You have to reduce the numbers to make everything fit with the 16 unit.
Just on spawn-curve criteria. It would be a very unusual warband that used 3 of any figure with a spawn cost higher than 5.
The only exception I have so far seen is 3xDarkHeartCottage. And that warband design has the specific strategy of building a solid line of locations across the scoring cells.
At spawn cost-5 or below triples are more commonly played. The Scarab Warcharm being the obvious example.
With Baxar War being legal today.... XAos, what kind of band you think will be the most powerful one? | | | |
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MikeyChraal
Warrior
233 Posts
Manchester, England
| | 11/10/2006 9:17 AM |
| in my valor band i have 3x loyal sgragglemaw, 3x enraged vanguard and 3 x runetagged brawler
it does alright i suppose, won an edge tourny with it | |
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6714 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 11/10/2006 9:40 AM |
| With 156 minis now to select from, and 39 from each aspect, it is now very feasible to have multiple options, and with that will come less usage of 3 of any given mini. I think you'll find a lot of pairing of minis, but triplicate will be a rarity for a while. A few notable exceptions may occur (Mono aspect, warcharms) but in general, I don't think you'll see 3 of a given piece, merely for flexibility purposes, if for no other reason. Also having 3 of a given piece can also make for a rather awkward spawn curve, just because of the load at that cost
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XAos
Underboss
2378 Posts
London
| | 11/10/2006 11:09 AM |
| Posted By JJ on 11/10/2006 6:04 AM
With Baxar War being legal today.... XAos, what kind of band you think will be the most powerful one? The main change is that opening strategy in the base set was basically 3 x spawn-2 fear critters.
leading to Voodoo Manipulators & Dreadmorph Ogres. Both chessmaster & Passion-Reapers use that core. Warbands which avoided that opening, were at a noticable liability (in the base set)
Baxar's provides 2 viable alternatives {clawclan scouts or Chaos Puppeteers}
3xChaos puppeteer noticably stregthens the Madness-DHC strategy by replacing the pick-picks.
Or 2xClawClan Scouts provides a very fast opening for Valor based warbands.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 11/13/2006 10:47 PM |
| I would still lean towards Fear having an advantage.
The Clawclans are really good, but they still cost 3 more. Same goes for the Puppeteers (although Scissors are still an option). The Zungar Warmaster is "meh" I can't ever see myself spawning 3 Defenders on turn 1.
Of course I am a bottom feeding, cheapskate when it comes to early spawn. So I may just be dislodging methane as an opinion. | |
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XAos
Underboss
2378 Posts
London
| | 11/14/2006 2:39 AM |
| I certainly agree the Zungar Blademaster is pointless. the reason to spawn 3xSpawn-2 creatures on turn-1 is to contest all the scoring cells on turn-2. And Bodyguard makes that impossible on a 50/50 initiative roll. If someone plays this as an opening tactic & wins a large tournament because they continuously win initiative turn-2. I'd guess the Umpire should take a carefull look at their initiative dice. If WotC produce a creature which improves your initiative, the Zungar Blademaster might become playable. But not as the game currently is.
Pricipal weakness of the scissors is that they regenerate. So they can't gain spawn-points when they are destroyed. That severly weakens the warbands mid-game. Though it can eventually strengthen the end game, since the scissors allow more efficient use of later spawn-rolls.
While the spawncost=3 is clearly a liability turn-1/2 the clawclans have several advantages over spawn-2 fear creatures during turns-2/3/4.
1) Both sides usually spread out to contest the scoring cells & in a 1-to-1 fight a clawclan should beat a Cannibal. So by turn-4 you commenly see all the cannibals dead while the clawclans are still alive.
2) The clawclans have b-skirmish. So if they roll blades instead of damage. they can skirmish forwards to a score-3/4/5 cell & win the turn.
3) If one of the clawclans survives to the middle game, the b-skirmish provides a nasty "edge".
4) 2 clawclans provide the aspect cost to spawn a whirlwind dervish on turn-2 (if the spawn roll is 10+) And that gives good odds of winning the round. Winning turn-2 can be very imporatant, as lots of warbands in the curernt metagame want to place a location in the center cell.
The spawn-2 fear creatures have some mid-game advantages of their own (e.g. spawning a Voodoo Manipulator early) So the choice may be fairly balenced between these two opening strategies. But my point hear is that before Baxar's came out there was only one strong choice (i.e. Fear) And now there are several.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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