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Bert the Troll
Commander
3831 Posts
    
Adelaide
 | | 03/14/2006 7:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by mdonais
I figure I should post my response to your mail here so that everyone can benefit from it.
--
Mike Donais
Game Developer
Wizards of the Coast
Thank you for the detailed information. It is great to see you post about it :) | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: Sometimes the road less traveled is less traveled for a reason. ~ Seinfeld
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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Ridureyu
Underboss
1622 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 7:50 PM |
| Thanks for the detailed information - it clears up a lot of questions.
Something like this needs to be posted over at WOTC. | |
Owner of The Original Rust Monsters!
DDM: Harbinger: 76/80 Dragoneye: 60/60 Archfiends: 56/60 GoL: 72/72 Aberrations: 60/60 Deathknell: 60/60 Angelfire: 60/60 Underdark: 60/60 War Drums: 60/60 War of the Dragon Queen: 60/60 Blood War: 60/60, Unhallowed: 60/60 Night Below: 60/60 Desert of Desolation: 60/60 Dungeons of Dread: 60/60 Against the Giants: 60/60
Dreamblade: All | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1341 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 7:54 PM |
| | Thanks very much for your insight, Mike. I still have concerns about the growth of competetive tournament play for DDM, but it does sound like an interesting game. | | | |
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Runelord151
Underboss
1203 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 7:58 PM |
| I've got to say that just looking at some of the minis, I like this game.
The unspeakable freak is great, it's perfect for a fiendish roper.
The Lunar Handmaiden could be a great Aspect.
The Ekkyon Wayfairer is cool as an undead giant.
The dreadmorph ogre is just plain freaky, but awsome none the less.
I may be picking some of these up as singles (if the cost isn't too prohibitive), as I have been planning on starting a campaign with Final Fantasy like summoners. With the Tome of Magic and these guys, I think my work should be cut down drastically.
It's nice to hear from Mike on the prize support. I had a gut feeling that even WotC wouldn't be shelling out $20,000 to a single winner (I would guess it's probably more like $500 - $1000 for the top dog). I really think this is going to draw an entirely different crowd and DDM may even see new blood as a result of people new to minis trying Dreamblade and wanting to see what else WotC has up their sleaves.
I think it's a good time to be a gamer!
BTW - how are those water elementals doing Mike? | | | |
| 2004 D&D Miniatures Champion
Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 7:59 PM |
| Mike,
Thanks so much for the reply. Good gracious that makes me feel a world better. I'd still prefer to see DDM get that kind of prize support (I don't care about money at the top either, I'd rather see it spread to everyone)--but that's just my personal bias (okay, and a wee bit of jealousy) talking. Your prompt response helped assuage a lot of my anxiety about this out-of-the-blue announcement.
Thanks again man, it's greatly appreciated. | |
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| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
8888 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 03/14/2006 8:12 PM |
| | I will remain true to DDM, but a quick glance at the prize support for a new and untested game is a bit disheartening. If the RPG side of D&D is at the core of Wizards' existence, then you would think that the support for its flagship minis game would be top-tier. Oh well, I love the game of DDM, and I will continue to play to win - prize or no prize. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 8:15 PM |
| I was wrong when I said I was done posting earlier.
I never figured the 20K was going to one person, but even down to the 64th person, that is way more money than we'll ever see. That certainly means they are planning on there being a lot more people in this tournament than in the DDM tournament. The support for stores that regularly run DDM events is almost non-existent. At some point, some of those stores are going to give up. You only need 1 or 2 judges to leave this game, and an entire city could disappear from being an active environment. I can't find anyone in MN that has met the WotC delegate or whatever they are called for this region.
I am calmer, but I'm still not convinced that this won't hurt the DDM game. I know some of the store owners - they only have so much room and time to host tournaments - they will host the ones that draw the most people in (like Magic and Pokeman). I am primarily a skirmisher. With OP already not supporting the stores that host every week or twice a month, and giving stores that never host events the big tournaments, what do you think those other stores are going to start hosting?
Almost every serious DDM player I've met was/is a Magic player (I'm the exception). Mike just said he expects to see top DDM players in his game. This will hurt some of the locations - most have 10-30 serious players. Even pulling away 5 from a group that size is a killer. This will be major competition for pulling new players away from Magic into DDM - you know Magic players better than me, where do you think they'll go?
I'm willing to wager that this game won't have a defective map in its first starter that contains maps. Yes, role players will keep the line alive. Yes, skirmish won't die immediately. But, I just don't see the skirmish growth. We are down stores in MN that host. There are less US locations for the qualifier this year than last year. If the competitive skirmish world is alive and growing, I just don't see it from the cold, frozen North lands, or from the things that matter - events and support from OP.
I also now find Ian's question about giving us hats or apparel as prize support and asking us our thoughts to have poor timing from a marketing perspective. He's asking if I want a hat, when their about to launch a game with the kind of support we've been begging for, and trying to build on a volunteer basis. How many design articles for DDM have been written on the WotC site? I know we've been asking for them, but I can't recall one. This game has one already, and will be getting more.
Just to be clear, I wouldn't feel this way if I didn't really, really enjoy this game and the new friendships it has brought me. I also very, very much appreciate that Shoe and others have been so accessible to this community. I come here every day, and while I'm sure this thread is not going to increase my popularity, I enjoy discussing DDM with you all. | |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
Champion of Juiblex | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1341 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 8:27 PM |
| | Zaukrie, I share your concerns, and I appreciate how calmly you're addressing something about which you obviously feel very strongly. | | | |
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Arnminster
Warrior
296 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 8:30 PM |
| I've downloaded the rules and like what I see so far. It seems like a mesh of MTG and DDM which I like to play both. When I was at Gen-Con for the finals you (Mike D) had mentioned that there was new minis game that you were working on and you were restraining not to mention anything else.
This looks like something I will be trying at this years Gen-Con.
The only question I have is: Are there a limited number of spots at the release tourney? The reason I ask was I did not know if I should pre-register or wait until I qualify for DDM [:D] to make sure I got a spot.
Thanks | |
Champion of the Rust Monster
Proud Member of Team Amish | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 8:31 PM |
| Well I'm still pretty much with you Zaukrie. It is nice that Mike came here to give his thoughts but then again being one of the key developers for the game he's obviously going to be biased. What else would he say but "It is the best minis game I have ever played"? I would like an answer as to why not give DDM this kind of prize support to boost the game even more? Why put so much toward something that could very well not take off? Just seems like they are taking a chance on something new while ignoring their top product. Anyone remember New Coke? [xx(] I mean seriously!
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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zenthrus
Commander
4788 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 03/14/2006 9:15 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by mdonais
A new team is now working on the new sets and they have just as many people as the old teams had, so D&D minis is still getting just as much support as it always had.
That's good to hear
quote:
I think D&D minis has the friendliest community of any game I have been involved in.
Having played several MtG qualifiers I wholeheartedly agree. Competetive OP tournaments tend to be ugly and I haven't seen that with DDM. We love you too, Mike [:D]
quote:
I know that Shoe is looking into the painting issues and I am sure that it will be fixed before the next set is released.
That's all I wanted to hear. If the QC issues of War Drums are corrected with WotDQ I'll be very happy.
It definitely looks horrible from a customer's perspective to see a product line have major quality control problems coupled with the launch of a new (and similar) product. Definitely poor timing.
As to the OP side of this discussion I can definitely see (and strongly empathize with) volunteer TOs who have struggled for a couple of years to keep DDM skirmish growing being outraged at insta-support for a new line (when support for DDM OP has been less than optimal). | |
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Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
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PatEllis15
Commander
4462 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 9:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Bert the Troll
quote:
Originally posted by mdonais
I figure I should post my response to your mail here so that everyone can benefit from it.
--
Mike Donais
Game Developer
Wizards of the Coast
Thank you for the detailed information. It is great to see you post about it :)
Ditto. I too am jealous, and concerned for the DDM community. It also sounds as if the expectations of WotC have plateaud with DDM as well. That said, I'm sure I'll take a look at DB...
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 9:28 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by johnny.quest
Zaukrie, I share your concerns, and I appreciate how calmly you're addressing something about which you obviously feel very strongly.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I wish I could be that rational and calm. As it is - feedback from Mike D or not - I'm ticked about this. The timing of this (right after a poorly executed set) stinks.
I appreciate the Mike took the time to say hi and tell us about the new game, but it doesn't soften the blow at all.
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To the list with you!
Email: robby.anderson@yahoo.com | H/W List | My Trade Interface | Reference Thread/Completed Trades
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 9:39 PM |
| Well, I'm calm now, but if Seattle matches the offer for Hutchinson, and all we get out of FA this year is a bunch of backups and trade culpepper for nothing....ooops, wrong forum.
Just trying to lighten the mood. If you think I'm "up" about this, you should see me watching a Vikings game.
Shoe, if you are reading this, I want to say again that I've been very happy with the skirmish aspect of WD, and I hope that at some point we can see some design and other articles from you in the future. While I'm disappointed in the paint jobs, the sculpts themselves are amazing. I also would like to thank Mike D for stopping by.
I will say that I'm not sure I want DDM to be something I could make a living at, I enjoy the fun of the game. This may sound contradictory of my earlier statements, but it isn't. I think OP could be much more supportive of the stores and people that have helped grow this game, without it becoming so bigtime that there is not room for us casual/serious gamers in the championships. My concern for the last year has been the tediously slow growth of the skirmish community. I'm pretty sure it could have grown a lot faster with more support. | |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
Champion of Juiblex | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 9:48 PM |
| quote:
Sales are great and I expect them to continue about where they are now for a long time.
So, basically confirmation that they see no growth potential in DDM beyond the current size of the game? | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10253 Posts
United States
| | 03/14/2006 9:57 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
quote:
Sales are great and I expect them to continue about where they are now for a long time.
So, basically confirmation that they see no growth potential in DDM beyond the current size of the game?
That's basically how I read it. But, when I thought about it, it doesn't surprise me. D&D players have always made up a very small segment of the population, and since DDM has been designed to appeal to them, it has to have a fairly small audience. Don't misunderstand, I know that there are probably a lot of skirmishers who don't play D&D at all. And, I know there are a ton of D&D players who don't play minis.
But, though I've never played Magic, I know it has a huge following. If they can come close to that, why wouldn't they try? But, I think that in order to pull that off, they're going to have to release a product that doesn't have the words "Dungeons and Dragons" in the title.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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LordStorm
Sneak
130 Posts
Columbus Ohio
| | 03/14/2006 10:30 PM |
| I saw the presentation and Mini at the Gama Trade Show. The presentation was very slick. The mini's are "ok". But...
I didn't get any feel for the gameplay or any unique selling points. I'm sure the money will pull in some people, but I"m not sure how much the average person will be interested in a collectible fantasy dice based "chess" game.
I don't think it will hurt DDM sales or the DDM effort.
mark | |
Lord Storm | |
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TheBlackFlail
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 11:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by mdonais
I figure I should post my response to your mail here so that everyone can benefit from it.
Thanks for coming here to address our concerns. Though I feel that your reply did little to adress the most pertinent concerns (see below), we all appreciate hearing from you.
quote:
Originally posted by mdonais
A bit of background first. Rob and I have worked a lot on the Design and Development of D&D miniatures and we feel that the game itself is in really good shape with the release of the new rulebook. The design of new miniatures is fairly straightforward due to hundreds of examples in the system. A new team is now working on the new sets and they have just as many people as the old teams had, so D&D minis is still getting just as much support as it always had. It is not declining. Sales are great and I expect them to continue about where they are now for a long time. Pokemon did not hurt magic sales, VS did not hurt magic sales. They existed in addition to magic and as the pokemon players left pokemon, they moved on to magic.
It has been just a few short years since Chainmail (the new version) got dumped like a hot potatoe for D&D minis. Many of us still haven't recovered enough trust to believe that Wizards will not dump DDM so unceremoniously. And Hasbro does not release sales figures to the public (even to investors, who OWN the company). So we can only take your word about how Pokemon and VS (what is VS anyways?) did not affect magic sales (to us out here in the playing field it sure seemed to affect the amount of play that happened).
quote:
Originally posted by mdonais
As far as painting goes, I am not sure exactly how HFE works but Dreamblade wasn't being painted until after the most current D&D miniatures were done (the sets are 6-7 months apart). I know that Shoe is looking into the painting issues and I am sure that it will be fixed before the next set is released.
I am glad to know that the painting issues are being looked into, I know a lot of people (not me) were exceedingly unhappy with War Drums paint quality (like my roomate). The timing of the announcement of the new game, coming close on the release of WD with it's numerous perceived defects, makes it seem to many in the DDM community that they have been "dumped" or relegated to rump status and all of the quality effort will be directed towards the new line.
quote:
Originally posted by mdonais
Ian made sure that the D&D Minis Championships don't overlap with the Dreamblade Championships so that you guys can play in both. I am very interested in what the DDM players think about the actual gameplay of Dreamblade. DDM has a competitive and matured audience now and I expect that the top 8 of the GenCon Dreamblade tournament to have several DDM players.
This is just what many of us fear, in fact. With such lucrative prize support (even spread somewhat thin through the playing field), the top DDM skirmish players are almost certain to jump ship. I highly doubt that with the time and cash commitment required to play collectible minis games that | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 11:36 PM |
| My gut feeling and with no real facts to back it up is that the reason they are putting so much behind this is because it is a risky venture.DDM had a pretty much guranteed consumer base. This does not as alot of DDM players will not want to get into another game and/or feel somehow "slighted" by its release. Same with SWM had a pretty established consumer base of fans. This game is new and "risky" for WOTC hence the big push to get it off the ground.
Also it may just be me but while a cash prize would be nice and all. To me it would take away from the fun and make it seem odd more of a let down maybe for not winning. Just my thoughts. | |
Asystole is a stable heart rhythm | |
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Balduran I
Sergeant
404 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 11:47 PM |
| TheBlackFlail,
Dreamblade is not a skirmish system.
Anyone who leaves DDM to play it will not leave because DB is a better DDM. Maybe the money will grab people (it's what WotC wants), but why people think it'd grab DDMers rather than other gamers is beyond me.
I doubt it'll affect skirmish at all. | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 11:59 PM |
| Well, despite all the reasonable comments people have made in this thread, including Mr. Donais, I still can't shake the bad feeling this product gives me.
It just seems to me that WotC is once again shooting themselves in the foot by damaging a solid product line. (Though I know the extent of the damage remains to be seen, there will be some.) | |
My H/W list is not current...
Trade Reference List
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TheBlackFlail
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 12:01 AM |
| Calling it a skirmish system was just a placeholder. It may not be skirmish per se, but I (and I'm clearly not the only one), feel that it will compete for the same customer base (even Mike Donais just said that he expects some of the top 8 to be DDM players).
I'd rather be proven wrong than right here, but that's just how I feel. | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3831 Posts
Adelaide
| | 03/15/2006 12:07 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Balduran I
TheBlackFlail,
Dreamblade is not a skirmish system.
Anyone who leaves DDM to play it will not leave because DB is a better DDM. Maybe the money will grab people (it's what WotC wants), but why people think it'd grab DDMers rather than other gamers is beyond me.
I doubt it'll affect skirmish at all.
I think it will. People are often time poor and can only devote resources to one game/hobby. We have seen some of the skirmishers in this thread comment that they may well choose to follow dreamblade over DDM competively.
It is a lot of money offered. | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: Sometimes the road less traveled is less traveled for a reason. ~ Seinfeld
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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Can of the Cave Beer
Commander
2838 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 12:25 AM |
| Well, I can say with certainty that if DDM should disappear, that my money will once again have a home in my bank account (which would not be an entirely awful thing).
While I'm sure Dreamblade is interesting, has wonderful figs, and will revolutionize the CMG market, etc. it is not for me. DDM is the one hobby I can justify (albeit only marginally) spending the cash on, and the only reasons I'm clinging to it are that I hope one day to be involved either in a (semi-)active skirmish community or to once again be active on the RPG side of things.
A new game just does not interest me. | |
Champion of the Werewolf Lord, Knight of Anything Duergar, and Squire of Things Gnollish
List reset with the start of previews for each new set...got Chainmail®? | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 12:41 AM |
| Skirmish system or not it is a Collectable Miniatures Game and with the HUGE financial prizes offered what do you think new players are going to go for? Hmmmm... let me think should I play Dreamblade for BIG MONEY or D&D Minis for a promo repaint and a box of boosters? Yeah, real tough call there. [V] Creating a new CMG and offering such prize money for those who play it is just an enormous cop out to all that came before (DDM, SWM and AAM) by a large corporation. It's Hasbro saying they want a game to offer big money and make big money on. Obviously they are saying DDM isn't deserving of such possibilities. This is something that they'll offer in every Target and KayBee Toys stores. Capitalistic greed at it's best.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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DrX
Sergeant
408 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 2:31 AM |
| Well, having now read through the rulebook that's online, and seeing Mike D's comments, I'm far less worried. This is not a DDM replacement. It's not a D&D-style combat game. It's a very different kind of game, with a very different style, despite the fact that it uses miniatures. It's sort of a chess game with resource management, designed specifically for a tournament scene, which the large prizes are meant to spark. It's kind of annoying that DDM doesn't have even close to that kind of tournament support, I guess. But would it really be as much fun if you were only playing for big cash prizes? Meh.
Will it draw disposable income away from people who might otherwise take up DDM? Maybe. But so do SWM, and AAM. Heck, MtG, WoW, Xbox, or going to the movies on Saturday night will too.
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HW List: http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=DrX
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12409
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One_Wing
Sergeant
494 Posts
London
| | 03/15/2006 2:36 AM |
| Mike
I would just like to ask whether Dreamblade will be running full scale organised play in the UK and other "secondary" (i.e. non USA) markets like Australia from the start. Up till recently my biggest problem with DDM was that only Americans could easily qualify for the "world" Championships. | |
Thousands of Zulu's, behind You!
Proud member of PK's team low tier beasting; CG for ever!
Champion of the Dragon Disciple | |
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Balduran I
Sergeant
404 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 2:47 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by TheBlackFlail
Calling it a skirmish system was just a placeholder. It may not be skirmish per se, but I (and I'm clearly not the only one), feel that it will compete for the same customer base (even Mike Donais just said that he expects some of the top 8 to be DDM players).
I'd rather be proven wrong than right here, but that's just how I feel.
All games compete for the geek dollar. The solution. Breed. More. Gamers. [:D] OK, not really (unless you want to... then... yikes, wrong thought to start down...), but I hear the concern. Part of me shares it, but not too heavily.
WotC lately has, apparently, done a really good job of segmenting their audience. Magic, AAM, SWM, DDM, all seem to have their own fan base. Not people who dabble, that crosses lots of games, but the hard core supporters. Each has its own thing going on, and there's not a lot of corporate cross talk pushing one game to the other's fans. Of course they'd like everyone to buy every game, but it's NOT a strategy they count on, IMO. My gut says they’re shooting for the same thing with DB – actively not trying to poach, but to build a new base. The games are just too different to make me think that they're really trying to rob Peter to pay Paul with this. | |
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Red Ranger
Sergeant
701 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 3:20 AM |
| Frankly, what worries me more about the future of DDM skirmish is not Dreamblade or the promise of 'big money,' but the transfer of production resoures away from the game, specifically in design, development, and production.
I want to state up front, this is not meant in any way to slight Shoe, Mike, Rob, Ian or any of the rest of the D&D or OP team for DDM, past, present, or future. I've never met any of you apart from interaction on these boards, but I look forward to doing so at Gencon this year or Winter Fantasy next, and all of your Maxminis board participation has been friendly, helpful, professional, and very welcome. Many thanks for your continued dedication to this great game!
For many years I played Decipher CCGs. I started with Star Wars, then got into Star Trek. After a bit of a haitus, I got into Lord of the Rings. What happened to all of these great games based on previously generated and high fan draw intellectual property? They tanked, as has Decipher as a company. The reason these games tanked? Once each of these games got going, Decipher put the experienced designers who had been working on them onto the 'next great game from Decipher' and replaced them with less experienced individuals. I'm sure those new designers felt they needed to put their stamp on the game, and from that came new mechanics, wonky and wacky special abilities, and power creep. In the case of Star Trek it brought on a Second Edition, mostly incompatible with the first, and with Lord of the Rings it heralded set rotation (sorry to even mention that ugly monster). Eventually, the sets of the older games got pushed back as productin of the new game got more importance in the schedule, .hack, Wars, and Megaman came to the forefront at the detriment of their more established games, but didn't have the fan ties that the others had and they tanked too and now Decipher is running on empty trying to eek out sets for the few dedicated Star Trek and LOTR fans that haven't left the game. I traded off all my Star Wars before it tanked, luckily, but my extensive Star Trek and LOTR collections are worth so much kindling for campfires and the BBQ grill now.
So far the Wardrums rules changes are excelllent and I think will serve to drive up competitive play and make casual play more enjoyable. The number of viable tournament warbands has risen drastically with the last few sets, with very little actual power creep I might add. I am encouraged about the future of DDM skirmish.
My worry comes that with the introduction of the 'next great Wizards game' and all the monetary prize support, DDM will strugle to find new players. The old players will defect or get busy with other things. The need to keep the line going will fuel the gimmicks, wacky SA's and power creep that we don't want or need in our game.
I know, CCG's are not CMG's and Wizards is not Decipher. Plus we have the RPG value of the minis, so they'll never really be as worthless as so much cardboard. I will continue for the forseeable future to purchase DDM and play the skirmish game.
Thanks for reading. | |
Champion of the Yeti
(large uncommon please!)
Assistant to the Regional Manager | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2385 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 3:59 AM |
| Yea I'm more worried about resources going somewhere else. Even if they have just as many ppl working on D&DM as they used to, did they take all the "talent" away..and give it to a bunch of newbies? That doesnt bode well..like maybe we'll get non-legal maps, not painted enough mines, etc...oh wait.. yea..thats what I'm worried about, more of that. Just seems to be a kick in the nuts to have another game come out and offer lots of prize support, which they could have upped the prize support for D&DM a little.
I'm glad mdonais did stop by to put his input in. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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orcdoubleax
Sergeant
692 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 5:37 AM |
| a couple quick early morning thoughts
I don't think DDM was ever or will ever be suited to big money games. There are too many ambiguities and loopholes that could be exploted. Big money DDM tournys would make big money magic tourneys look like a love fest.
I will buy DDM for the forseable future, but if the line ends that is fine. I hopefully would be able to pick up some collections that people dump cheap and I will have enought RPG minis for ever.
I only ever skirmished because I had the minis anyway. | |
Yes I am Gelatinous.
www.gelatinousdudes.com
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Zyla
Underboss
1186 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 6:22 AM |
| | Doesnt matter if Dreamblade has a more simple and easier game system (which may not be a skirmish game), it doesnt matter how well the game plays, the ONLY thing that matters is they are throwing money at it, and a top skirmish player odds are would play a more simple and easier game if there was money involved, it all comes down to the almighty dollar. | |
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Count Dooku
Commander
4636 Posts
New York
| | 03/15/2006 7:31 AM |
| Ok maybe Im crazy because I still dont get it.
Everyone is worried about skirmishers leaving DDM for DB.
Yes SOME you are worried that DB may be a more fun game and is just a better game to play than DDM.
But MORE of you seem worried that the #1 thing that will lure people away is the large sums of money being given away at these turnaments.
Ummm...no. If little Jimmy and little Timmy buy boosters of Dreamblade and play each other..The winner will not have a $5 bill pop out of his booster. If they go to their FLGS and play in a tournament...the winner will not be written a check.
The only prize money to be had will be at these tournaments held at conventions.
I want someone...anyone...to honestly quote me a figure. What percentage of DDM purchasers go to these tournaments? My guess is a generous 2% but that may be to high.
So I REALLY dont think the tournament prize money will have ANY affect on taking people away from DDM other than a insignifagant percentage of people.
Maybe because most of you go to these turnaments you assume everyone does? Take a step back and look at the reality of it.
Or is it me who is the clueless one?
Please enlighten me. :) | |
Champion of the Skulk
Vindicated Champion of the Twig Blight | |
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Bijan Ajamlou
Sneak
91 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 7:59 AM |
| What are the good side of Dreamblade for me as a DM?
1. Well i think more beutiful painted large minis could never be wrong!
2. Now we will get monster that comes from the "dreamplane" (xoriat) or good proxies for incanrations and other summons (Pact Magic) from wizards new books like Tome of Magic/ Expanded psionic handbook/ Magic Incarnium.
3. We will get minis that could be used in modern (I have always wanted that)!
4. I could quit playing magic and finally start playing a fun game whit minis that could be used in RPG sessions (Yes i dont find skimrish to be a substitute for magic (tactical chess-like games), DDM is a substitute for RPG for me)
5. The more that starts playing whit minis the more accepted mini games becomme.
6 The Dreamblade is so expensive (same price as a huge pack) that i dont believe that the game will succsead in beating DDM or magic for that mather, i dont believe that people that is purly interested in the strategic part of the game are intressted in paying the same price for 1 booster that they will get 5boosters for in magic. | |
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Sammael
Underboss
1881 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 8:25 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Count Dooku
Ok maybe Im crazy because I still dont get it.
My issues with Dreamblade are twofold:
1) Several experienced DDM designers were pulled from DDM to work on Dreamblade. Call me selfish, but I would have preferred them to continue working on DDM. The same goes for concept artists, sculptors, etc.
2) Dedicated Skirmish players are but one of the three target groups for DDM (and I think they are the smallest of the three). It is likely that many of them will switch over to Dreamblade lured by the promise of cash prizes. What irks me is that significant efforts have gone into boosting the Skirmish aspect of DDM (at the expense of the RPG aspect) - for very little or no benefit whatsoever. | |
Hypethetical Blood War Set List | Champion of the Gelugon | Vindicated Prophet of Blood War
Ha 69/80 | De 60/60 | Ar 57/60 | GoL 72/72 | Ab 60/60 | DK 60/60 | AF 60/60 | UD 59/60 | WD 57/60 | WDQ 3/60| BW
Total DDM Count: 1037 | No chance of finishing the set | Will finish the set | Set | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 8:31 AM |
| OK so I'm alittle less freaked out than I was at 4:00PM (EST) when this thread only had like 5 pages.
I skimmed over the Dreamblade rulebook, it looks interesting. It also looks...easier from a mechanics standpoint. Easier is a good thing for bringing in new players. New players is what will be needed, This game IS NOT anything like DDM.
This new game is a meta gamers game. Casual play and fun play will be limited in comparison to DDM. Luck plays a greatly reduced role here form my first read through.
It lacks the flexibility that is built in to DDM. I am 100% convinced it is not a "better" game. It is a "different" game and thats good. I don't play AAM or SWM cause I already skirmish with DDM. The systems are way to similar. Dreamblade is differentiated sufficiently that I'll try it out.
That said, I will not be retireing from DDM. It's to much fun. I like it at least as much as the RPG, maybe more since it is easier to put together a casual skirmish game than to get 5 adults coordinated for the RPG more than 2 or 3 times a month. With skirmish I still get the Flavor of D&D in a great package while jonesing for a RPG session.
War Drums is the single most skirmishable set in the DDM line. Even the bad figures are an improvement over Aberrations "soso" figures. This was done without signifigant powercreep and with the inclusion of a wide variety of RPG usefull minis. In short the "New Guys" did a good job. The paint is the major complaint and with only 2 exceptions, all of my WD minis have decent paint jobs (inc. my one Frost Dwarf). Mine came in the "2nd wave". So until I see evidence otherwise I'll chalk up any shoddy work to HFE trying to get the (heavily) preordered product out in time. We are all in agreement that the sculpts are top notch. So all in all, the skirmish game is in good shape.
Black Flail is correct however in noting that guys from the corporation will never say ahead of time if a product line is going to be cancelled. They'd be canned if they did. That's just bad buisness.
Another bad buisness decision would be to cancel a (2nd) product line that makes money so soon after it's inception. The loss of Chainmail still resonates in the community, scrapping DDM short of 6 or 7 years would break faith with the people that WotC NEEDS for miniture marketplace share, to borrow one of their terms, the CORE clientelle. I am certain they understand this, if they don't, they need new careers, ones where gamers don't make up the customer base.
It is possible that some of the more serious skirmishers will jump ship. Losing Jesse, Chris, Derry, Dagni, Gnolum, Bshugg and company would hurt the long term viability of the skirmish community. The Maxminis skirmish forum is the first place I send new players to get up to pace on what is really competitive. I would hope that they wouldn't stay gone long. These gentlemen have something unique here, they are needed. Losing Fenris and Kiddoc is a different matter. They are Champions. They have done what the rest of us dream of, they won the big one. If they feel that they've done all they can with DDM a new challenge might be just the thing. And heck maybe they can kick us down a pointer or two on a new game that was designed for a format that they have proven to thrive in. I am finding solace in the fact that Vrecknidj seems to find this whole thing kinda funny. I hope he is not alone.
One glaring thing has come to light on these 8 pages. WotC needs better support for the Mini games on a local level. The delegate program sounds like a good place to start but it seems that whole regions either lack delegates or have delegates that are woefully inadequet. Or worse yet are responsible for a territory so large no one person could be reasonably expected to cover it. I am not suggesting paying them, but an evaluation process would be a start.This could be added to DCI paperwork and filled out by the people that interact with that person. A prerequisite would be that every delegate should be at least a borderline Mini addict. If a delegate only plays MtG and doesn't even roleplay do they Qualify?
A seperate catagory of delegate might be called for with regard to the mini lines which require more than just a random demo here and there. We have several people on this forum and allready known to the community who have more than qualified for this type of position. Cash prizes, while nice, aren't really necessary. Corporate Gift Certificates would make a 1st place finish in a large tourney that much better. A "special" repaint given out by a delegate at a delegate run tourny would be a nice touch. And a cheap alternative as well to cash.
I have no idea how OP is structured and organized, whether it is a seperate entity from the DCI or is staffed for wide area support. I've never even attended a DCI sanctioned event to my knowledge. If Dreamblade lives up to this early Hype however it will require manpower, coordination and coverage. If such a network is to exist it should be able to support more than one game platform or brand. As WotC grows it will need this type of support to truly domminate the marketplace and compete with the real competetion, the video game.
I'll be sad if the skirmish game dies or more to the point is allowed to die. I went 22 years without ever buying a mini for a roleplaying game. Dice, coins, paper counter and green army men always did fine. I fell for the "3 pronged marketing tactic" and don't regret it. If skirmish dies I'll still play, although not as often. At the moment I feel like I am getting maximum value for my dollar spent with a dual purpose product. I for one would stop buying minis if they only filled a single niche in my gaming needs a need that i can satiate myself with my almost passable sculpting skills.
A very long time ago, Gygax envisioned a world championship for D&D. Over time that dream proved elusive as RPG's vary to much to have a truly balanced way of determining victory. DDM revived that dream of compettion if not in the way he originally concieved of it. DDM is more than a neat, fun game. It is part of D&D a part that needs to develope fully. And by fully I mean one day Alepup, Psisteph and Fenris will play each other on the same day in the same room with the whole (minis)world watching on 950Rav's web cam.
So there it is. We owe it to "the Man", Keep the Dream Alive. | |
Two trades completed!! (Krush,Hides From Hurricanes)
Champion of the Aaracokra
Herald Of Snig Goblin King | |
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tallcar24
Sneak
103 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 8:38 AM |
| Where is everyone getting the dreamblade rulebook from?
edit: nevermind. I found it under the rules link. I kept looking under downloads. | |
trade reference: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12795 | |
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 9:36 AM |
| Well first I want to say thank you to Mike! I think that his post means a lot more then some people could ever realize. He gave out a ton of information that was not released yet and I thin it was great that he feels comfortalbe doing that with this communitee.
Second, I want to second Count Dooku with a I'm not sure why everyone is freaking out. When SWM hit, some people started collecting it and the DDM continued. When AAM hit the same thing happened. There are 2 other minis games coming out this year AAM at Sea and SWM Space Battles (or what ever they are called), are we worried about people leaving for them as well. I thinkn we need to get over the money thing, it is what the game is getting and some people will play in it because of that. He also makes a great comment about the number of players. We are a small number compared to all the DDM collectors (RPG and Skirmish). I enjoy the tight knit group we have here and would welcome anyone else in, but we have to realize that there are many others out there who know nothing about the site.
As a Delegate I know that each section of WotC is kind of like an island. They each have seperate budgets, designers, writers, and OP. We should not be comparing one OP to another as they are not the same. This game may have some different OP as they are bringing something out with no back history.
I'm in favor of this game and I'll give it a try at Gen Con. I'm not saying I'll stop playing DDM at all, just that I'm willing to try it out at a Con. In the end I don't think the DDM game will lose anyhing by this new game coming out, if anything it might be a step back and forth for different gamers to get involved with minis. | |
Sean Banks
Champion of Elementals
Official Organizer
Gen Con 05 maxminis Event | Winterfantasy 06 maxminis Event | Gen Con 06 maxminis Event | Winterfantasy 07 Community Event | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 9:54 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sammael
2) Dedicated Skirmish players are but one of the three target groups for DDM (and I think they are the smallest of the three). It is likely that many of them will switch over to Dreamblade lured by the promise of cash prizes. What irks me is that significant efforts have gone into boosting the Skirmish aspect of DDM (at the expense of the RPG aspect) - for very little or no benefit whatsoever.
Despite my initial reaction of amazement to the prizes, I don't think its likely that I am going to switch over. I already have too much time and effort invested in this game, and I am kind of leery of the sort of community that having high-value cash prizes will create. I am probably going to check (especially since its not overlapping with the Championship) it out but it is very unlikely that I am going to drop DDM for it. | |
I am not gone. | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 03/15/2006 10:17 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Count Dooku
Ok maybe Im crazy because I still dont get it.
Everyone is worried about skirmishers leaving DDM for DB.
Yes SOME you are worried that DB may be a more fun game and is just a better game to play than DDM.
But MORE of you seem worried that the #1 thing that will lure people away is the large sums of money being given away at these turnaments.
Ummm...no. If little Jimmy and little Timmy buy boosters of Dreamblade and play each other..The winner will not have a $5 bill pop out of his booster. If they go to their FLGS and play in a tournament...the winner will not be written a check.
The only prize money to be had will be at these tournaments held at conventions.
Enlightment coming. :)
Read this: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dbm/op/20060313a
Here is what is worriesome for me, from the standpoint of attracting new players (bolded):
Preview of Coming Events
- August 12, 2006 - $20,000 Release Championship at GenCon Indianapolis. (Sealed Format)
- August 2006 - Stores will be able to Sanction Dreamblade Tournaments with the DCI
- August 2006 - Edge Tournaments in stores
- September 2006 - Twenty 1K Tournaments every month in the U.S.
- September 2006 - One 10K Tournament every month in the U.S.
- August 2007 - $50,000 Dream Series Championship
Those tournaments aren't going to be held at conventions - they'll be held at FLGS all around the country, at least thats what it reads to me (I don't think there are 20 gaming conventions in each month).
$30K each month in prizes, no less. This will draw new players, and likely draw a fair amount of DDM players. It will certainly make it harder to draw new players in, and that is the lifeblood of any game.
Man, do I wish the DDM had support resembling that. I can't imagine how many new players $20K a month in prize support would generate.
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