Posted By Ghendar on 07/29/2007 11:09 AM

Doesn't Saturn still have a no haggle policy? They've done quite well with it.

Posted By Teflon Jeff on 07/28/2007 9:51 PM

They've already tried it, remember the bout of "employee priced" cars? That was an attempt to eliminate haggling. But in reality, they need only wait. The modern generation knows little about haggling, they've been trained to just accept the sticker price.

Posted By zenthrus on 07/29/2007 6:16 PM
A number of local dealers that were pushing "no haggle" pricing all either went under or switched their marketing back to the standard. The cars weren't moving off the lots.

BTW, i host poker games once a week, and I provide food & drinks and background entertainment (TV), and it is great fun. in fact, people have so much fun, that i routinely have to add a table or 2 and bring in more dealers, and i even get people wanting to contribute on their own. i guess they want to see something succeed too, instead of waiting for the publisher/wholesaler/distributor/retailer to do it for them. it is called grass roots activism. if you think that the B&M store is really looking out for you, the gamer, then no wonder it is dying form of entertainment.

Let it go................people will find a way to sell stuff at a major discount anyway. it won't stop, and the archaic industry that is tabletop gaming will continue to die. it isn't the law's fault.

Posted By gss_000 on 07/30/2007 12:29 PM


By your own arguments you should give up your "archaic" poker game because online gaming is much better. You don't need face to face, and it doesn't matter how much fun you have with your group. Can't you do it at you on homes with your fast speed internet connection?

A few things about your statements on table top and CCG gaming. The industry is definitely not dying. Thousands just came for Magic Nationals here in Baltimore, they'll be a lot more converging on Gencon in a few weeks, not to mention conventions like Origins, DragonCon, D&DXP, and hundreds of other smaller conventions held all over the country and world each month. Sure, the industry isn't as big as computer games, but it is still strong.

But let's head back to the real thrust of this law, online vs B&M store, not any industry. You mentioned some of the problems with store, well there are just as many for online stores. Fraud, theft (Which I've had. They took my money and I got nothing), damaged goods delivered without recourse (I've also had this), unsecure transactions, etc. Maybe without the insane prices the flaws in that industry will be a lot more apparent. I'll still buy some things online, but low prices are not the end all and be all.

Lastly, just remember. A few years ago people said the exact same things. It was called the dot com boom. Now we just remember the dot com bust.

Posted By Ghendar on 07/29/2007 11:09 AM
Doesn't Saturn still have a no haggle policy? They've done quite well with it.

Posted By portermj on 08/01/2007 7:25 AM

Why does that action have to be price fixing?

It seems that if what LGS provide is valuable they would be able to stay in the black without reaching into my wallet.Â

Personally, I think LGS are over rated as a way to get people into a game.  I never had a game store in Billings when I grew up and I still found RPGs.  I found them the way I think most people find them, through friends.Â

 

Posted By Teflon Jeff on 08/01/2007 8:34 PM

The problem, as Dancey states, is that consumers are, for the most part, too short-sighted for their own good. They don't see the entire puzzle to realize that the space they play in needs revenue to continue to exist. Many stores bend over backwards, doing everything they can to cater to their customers, but most customers don't realize the need for the the store to have their business.

Posted By gss_000 on 08/02/2007 10:56 AM
Kaya, that seems like a really extreme choice you are presenting. You'd really stop collecting because you couldn't get 6 cases? You wouldn't spend the same amount of money to get 3+ cases, you'd just drop the hobby all together? If so, you're going to be the exception, not the rule because most people aren't going to spite themselves in that way, they'll just readjust.

Posted By ameobaslayer on 08/02/2007 3:13 PM
I'm on Kaya's side here.

I purchase 4 cases of each set. And I've not stepped into an LGS in years.

I'm in complete agreement with Kaya in that if I'm forced to pay 30-40% more for my minis, I'll not be purchasing any more.

I've been viewing this, and other DnD/DnD minis boards for years now. I've seen TONS of whining regarding the stress on LGSs because of the internet. When are all of these people realize that the internet is here to stay, and they either need to figure out a way to make enough money to stay open, or they need to close up shop and get real jobs like the rest of us?!

One of the arguments people use is that new players need LGSs to be introduced to minis. Well, the "new" generation is growing up with the internet, and will be so comfortable with it that they'll not feel any different buying something online as they would going to any physical store to purchase the same product. It's not going to get better for LGSs folks, its going to get worse.

The internet is the place where most kids are going to be introduced to new things. That, and their parents (who are the ones currently buying cases online) and their friends (who saw something cool on a TV commercial or online).

Just my thoughts...

Look at the costs everywhere that is continually being jacked up just because the majority of people are sheep. I myself may be one of the few that stops buying, but when you add me to people like Ghendar who is also doing the same as well you will see that the company will start taking hits because people who buy by the case will stop buying altogether. I have plenty of miniatures, I don't need anything else except for maybe a Pit Fiend or Balor.. But ever since Angelfire, I got tired of the game and stopped buying.

One of the arguments people use is that new players need LGSs to be introduced to minis. Well, the "new" generation is growing up with the internet, and will be so comfortable with it that they'll not feel any different buying something online as they would going to any physical store to purchase the same product. It's not going to get better for LGSs folks, its going to get worse.

Posted By gss_000 on 08/02/2007 10:43 AM
Stores with space aren't new. They've been around for years, and they are important for generating revenue. The amount people will buy in a store they are playing at is impressive, and it exposes them to a lot of other games and materials.

Posted By gss_000 on 08/02/2007 4:05 PM


Right. So really you're out of the game and out of the figuring when it comes to whether your dollar matters. What you're also forgetting is that these types of games figures people leave the game. It's not a big thing and is inevitable. For card games the average lifespan of a collector is 3 years. So really, over time, they expect to lose all of us. The threat of it is no big deal. It's a big deal if they can't get new players, but that has not happened instead new people are coming in to replace those losses. In general, gamers are so reactionary it's ridiculous sometimes. We inflate our own value and importance. While case sales are important, the amount who still buy just boosters dwarf that. Case sales are the exception, not the norm.

But back to the role of the internet. I think we're giving it way too much credit. Don't get me wrong. I love it, Iuse it, and I value it, but it's not a perfect tool. It's at its best when good trust networks are formed, but when those networks are corrupted, it all falls apart. What does that mean in this context? If you are going to trust some anonymous voice to introduce you to games, it better always be truthful.

There is another problem that the LGS solves: variety. The problem with the sources you mention is that they are mostly going to be familiar with the bigger brands. The more popular, the more likely people have heard it, and the more likely it will sell, and the more likely to be at the places where the majority of customers go to. Want to see this in action? Go to a Barnes and Nobles and check out their RPG section. If it's like the ones near me, it's mostly D&D and Vampire, and only the recent books, with a smattering of others from big publishers. The LGS gives smaller publishers and less known game a chance to compete on an equal footing. They may not be equal quality, but variety is improved and prevents the big names from becoming stale.

Also, how many times have people complained on boards that they can't find games or gamers to play with? Where was the internet there? Hopefully this will be rectified over time, but for now it's still really hard. Especially when you move to a new area, LGS can be great tools for finding out about what is going on in an area.

I think here it's all about saying we need both tools for a good community and system. When one is threatening to destroy the other, then government does need to step in and do something. If it goes to far, the same mechanism that put the law in place can modify or take it out.

Posted By Teflon Jeff on 08/02/2007 6:05 PM
I still see nothing that points to price fixing being a bad thing. It's up to the business in question. Wizards may do nothing with it. But Kaya, your threat to leave the game is empty, you've already left, for entirely different reasons. This is good for the long-term health of the company. Without them, there's no game to begin with.

And don't give me the crap about them squeezing more money out of us. Profit margins aren't exactly huge in the gaming industry.

As far as not finding games or gamers, I hosted DnD in my house for a long time. I taught people how to play, and I found them through the boards or by posting ads at the college. There's always gamers to be had, but the issue is that a LGS isn't always there, or too far away to be worth a trip.

Profit margins are slim as is because the younger generation is moving to video games more everyday. And the older generation is just looking at nostalgia and not really seeing what really happened.

As far as variety is concerned, when was the last time you have seen Blood Wars, Wyvern, Rage, etc...? These dead games shouldn't be on the shelves collecting dust and raising overhead costs for the LGS. If it doesn't sell, do something, eBay it off. This problem is solved

I didn't find out about DDM locally, I found it on the internet.

The internet wasn't a problem 3 years ago, why is it such a big deal now?

Posted By portermj on 08/02/2007 6:13 PM

So play space generates revenue...for the store.  Still doesn't explain why I need to pay two middle men (the distributor and the store owner) to get something I already know I want.

Obviously, you and I have different experiences on how important play space at a store is.   For me, place space has been living rooms, barracks, dorms, commons, cafeterias, and even the ultimate gamer cliche, basements.  I think I'm pretty far from being alone in this case, someone must be buying books and boosters from comic shops, book stores and hobby shops that don't have play areas.  Even with game store, it seems like people aren't stumbling across them, people going to them usually have an idea of what they are looking for without the help of a table and some chairs.

Price fixing is bad because it stifles innovation and creates a monopoly.  In this case, if enacted it would create a distribution monopoly that gives an economically unatural advantage to brick and motar shops.  We lose if we are forced to stick to a specific distribution method when there may be a better way to deliver goods to our doorstep.

Posted By gss_000 on 08/02/2007 8:02 PM

Posted By gss_000 on 08/02/2007 4:14 PM
the role of the internet is sometimes inflated.

Posted By zenthrus on 08/03/2007 2:10 PM

Read what I wrote again. I didn't say that the internet doesn't have its uses.  I said that you can't assume the internet is a perfect delivery system and it's some magical conveyance that automatically provide for ones needs.  The internet is great for provided services for those who do not have access to anything locally.  An inflated view is to see it as doing all that it can do and all that stores can do.  There can be balance between stores and online formats like gleemax.Â