| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
| | Author | Messages | |
darkwaters
Skirmisher
26 Posts
    
 | | 09/25/2006 1:54 PM |
| | I wouldn't go out of my way to buy the 4th Ed and all its glorious little sourcebooks that would follow. I personally like 3.5 and Im probably gonna spend even more money on it. Why switch to a new system when the old one has been working. That's what you should ask yourself. Do you like 3.5 or would you like more out of your RPG system? | | | |
|
Gaddszooks
Underboss
1064 Posts
| | 09/25/2006 9:17 PM |
| I'd have to make a decision to buy 4E based on a DM's point of view. I saw a post earlier that touched base on the power of PC's and their options that confounds all of the governing rules in the DMG.I agree with the earlier post about the grapple rules just being unreachable for PC's, and many other special attacks really need to be addressed in 3.5 now. It does slow game play to a crawl, and has slowly limited the options that players present to the DM. When the decision for an action causes everyone but the DM and a single player to take up multiple minutes of game time, you slowly see the course of actions change as the campaign progresses. Sunder, Trip, Grapple, Disarm have all been lost to attack, charge, cast a spell, double move and hold my action. 3.5 is D&D Mini's with paper and pencil already and if 4E can make it even more so...I'm not interested in the least. We already have a D&D Minis game. I think I've been to a tournament or two. We need the tabletop book and imagination game to be DDM II?    Â
Example. The Age of Worms Adventure Path in Dungeon Magazine. Excellent story. Terrific Tie-ins and great resources and resource listings in the adventure as you DM it. After a few encounters with the Tri-partite church of Kyuss and some NPC run ins in Diamond Lake and the Free City, your hooked. PC's were having a blast and levels were still minimal ( 6-8th ). Add a few levels and we're fighting in the midst of a Giant civil war that is attacked by Dragons. Holy smokes, finding all the mini's for that month was fun. Now we're beyond that , and heading for a near cataclysmic showdown with a god, and everything wipes out. Story ends, path narrows and all of it because the designers couldn't find anything to challange the PC's that didn't have a set creature type to help it survive the onslaught of freshly resurrected PC's. Every encounter has the same basic creature types in them because critical hits are absurd in 3.5. 4E would need to change entirely to be worthwhile for anyone that runs a game. It's easy to play 3.5 up until 12th level..wait, it used to be. Now you need to factor in the supreme book of cheese in the Spell Compendium, and games are easy until level 8. Then you'll need to take off on extreme roleplaying tangents, develop cohorts, strongholds, affiliations and NPC's to near flesh like apothesis and then you might, just might be able to keep your players guessing and interested.
Every new 3.5 book that comes out is a sellout to all of the players requesting upgrades to their favorite classes. So now by 12th level ( 6th spell level ) players already have an arsenal of differing spells that can and will destroy almost any enemy or monster you can throw at them. Too many spells now barely even need to hit to be powerfully effective. Ranged touch attack spells like all of the Orbs, scorching ray and anything else out there that doesnt need to make a SR roll have taken over entire spell lists. Haste gets a nerf, then clerics get to add to the action. Pair up Haste and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and missing that partial action doesn't hurt so much anymore. Mounted Paladins with Rhino's Rush, the Spirited Charge Feat and Find the Gap can now initial hit for 160+ damage because you can take the full power attack option ( Find the Gap ignores all armor ) and did I mention that power attack is a strength adjustment so it doubles if your using a 2 handed weapon. It becomes too difficult to challenge a group of 14-17th level even with a CR 20 Dragon + minions. Make the EL harder and non-spellcasters are now the ones to suffer. It used to be the opposite. Fighter classes could handle what came next while if a spellcaster was harried or targeted specifically, it meant certain doom. Not so in 3.5. Concentration checks are a breeze once you gain a few levels so casters no longer worry about leaving a fight or tossing a wall of force up to hedge out his foe. Even the small decrease in the ability to raise your spell DC's wasn't a solution because it affected everyone, even monsters special abilities.
3.5 is and can be very good for players, but it's the rules and governing side of the system that is wobbly IMO. Do we need 4E in less that a year? No, I for one am thinking 4E needs to be released in 2009 or later because any sooner will just mean they didn't put enough thought and good old fashioned playtesting into it. | |
Completed Trades (172)
Where did that thread go? I need to sew my shield strap back on. | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10849 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 09/04/2007 5:53 AM |
| Posted By MerricB on 09/19/2006 3:00 PM
However, it's extremely likely that 4E will be on the order of the 1E->2E change and not invalidate all your old books. Wizards aren't stupid. This isn't going to be a 2E->3E order of magnitude upgrade.
Hmmmmm | |
Leaning towards giving 4e the Digitus Impudicus
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
6247 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 09/04/2007 8:21 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 09/04/2007 5:53 AM Posted By MerricB on 09/19/2006 3:00 PM
However, it's extremely likely that 4E will be on the order of the 1E->2E change and not invalidate all your old books. Wizards aren't stupid. This isn't going to be a 2E->3E order of magnitude upgrade. Hmmmmm
Practicing your threadamancy again, Ghendar? | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10849 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 09/04/2007 8:36 AM |
| | I find it interesting to look back and see what came true and what didn't. | |
Leaning towards giving 4e the Digitus Impudicus
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| 
Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Cthulhufnord
Warlord
10564 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 09/04/2007 10:05 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 09/04/2007 8:36 AM
I find it interesting to look back and see what came true and what didn't.
Indeed. | |
Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul,
ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul | |
|
PaSquall
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 09/04/2007 10:11 AM |
| | Wouldn't it be time to create a new poll with less "biased" choices, to see if people have changed their minds now 4E is official ? | |
Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10849 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 09/04/2007 10:39 AM |
| Posted By PaSquall on 09/04/2007 10:11 AM
Wouldn't it be time to create a new poll with less "biased" choices, to see if people have changed their minds now 4E is official ?
Go for it.
| |
Leaning towards giving 4e the Digitus Impudicus
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|
PaSquall
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 09/04/2007 11:13 AM |
| | OK. I'm gonna give a try. | |
Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10849 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 09/18/2007 4:44 AM |
| Posted By MerricB on 09/19/2006 3:00 PM
However, it's extremely likely that 4E will be on the order of the 1E->2E change and not invalidate all your old books. Wizards aren't stupid. This isn't going to be a 2E->3E order of magnitude upgrade.
Seems 3E to 4E will be a bigger change unfortunately. I'd really like to know why they didn't build in backward compatibility for 3.5 into 4E. Doing so would have resulted in a much happier fan base. I have no idea how difficult this would have been to accomplish, but I can see the benefits they would have reaped in doing so. I can also see how doing that would have cut sales of 4E books.
What I do know is that they are systematically annoying a great portion of their customer base right now. | |
Leaning towards giving 4e the Digitus Impudicus
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
Australia
| | 09/18/2007 6:18 PM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 09/18/2007 4:44 AM Posted By MerricB on 09/19/2006 3:00 PM
However, it's extremely likely that 4E will be on the order of the 1E->2E change and not invalidate all your old books. Wizards aren't stupid. This isn't going to be a 2E->3E order of magnitude upgrade. Seems 3E to 4E will be a bigger change unfortunately. I'd really like to know why they didn't build in backward compatibility for 3.5 into 4E. Doing so would have resulted in a much happier fan base. I have no idea how difficult this would have been to accomplish, but I can see the benefits they would have reaped in doing so. I can also see how doing that would have cut sales of 4E books. What I do know is that they are systematically annoying a great portion of their customer base right now.
No, I'm being serious here. 3e has a problem: it begins to break down after 12th level. There are DMs who can run high-level campaigns, but for many they become too intimidating.
Oh wait, did I say a problem? No, 3e has many. Here's another: monsters have too limited a lifetime in the game. I'm not talking about how long they last until the PCs kill them - that's not a problem. No, what's a problem is that an Ogre is a CR 3 creature that is probably too tough for level 1 characters, and too weak for level 5 characters.
The levels at which a monster can be used are too limited, and that's because the power-curve of gaining abilities is set too steep in 3e.
So, 4e will recalibrate the entire range (from 1st to 30th level). The designers talk about a "sweet spot" in 3e D&D of about 5th-12th level. This is where all the PCs can contribute, the monsters don't kill them in one spot, and working out the different bonuses doesn't require training in higher arithmetic.
Here's an example of how things will be changing. In 3e (and previous editions), Wizards are primarily defined by their ability to cast d6/level spells that affect a lot of creatures at once. Fireball, Cone of Cold, Delayed Blast Fireball.
Now, there's a basic problem with that: Fighters are defined by doing one or two attacks a round that do d8 (plus some minor bonuses). In 3e, they bumped up the bonuses. However, for a Fighter to remain competitive they basically have to increase their damage by about d8 *every level*. Hmm.
4e: Fireball no longer deals 1d6 per level - I'm expecting it'll be a much flatter amount of damage, so that (a) you don't have to roll so many dice at high levels (that's a problem), and (b) the power curve isn't so steep.
Once you make those sort of adjustments to the system, you can't have basic compatability any more.
Another major change is moving away from 1/day abilities towards per encounter abilities. Now, there will still be per day abilities, but a character at the beginning of the day and a character at the end of the day won't be as far apart in power any more. That also causes compatability problems.
I like 3e. I think it works pretty well... but I know I have fewer problems with the system than many people because I have superior arithmetic skills and organisational skills (as relates to combat).
I'm surprised by the extent of the changes. I really didn't think they'd go so far. I expect that the basic *system* will be quite similar to 3e, but the balance levels of the monsters, spells and characters will be different. So, a new edition - and, alas, no backward compatability.
OTOH, I'm liking the sound of what I'm hearing, and I dare say I can convert the spirit of the best features of 3e that don't make it into 4e.
Cheers,
Merric | |
Merric Blackman
| |
|
Dimitris
Warrior
186 Posts
Athens - Greece
| | 09/19/2007 3:48 AM |
| I understand a number of problems of the 3.5 ed but I feel that the WotC didn't respect their clients by not keeping a compatibility between the 4 ed and the 3.5 ed. As Merric said I would expect to build on 3.5 and make a number of changes and advancements trying to fix the problems they are presenting to us. I don't feel that it was absolutely necessary to go for a new version and not just a revision.
I feel that WotC is looking on the numbers of WoW players and trying to achieve that level of success. They are not happy with the limited number of D&D players buying a number of rule-books. But at the same time, I am starting to think that I may be not happy with WotC, too.
I agree that this hobby is growing in our houses (friends now playing will become DMs in new groups, etc) in a more slow pace that they want. Ok. They know that the on-line MMORPGs are reducing the number of P&P players. Ok. They want to attract new players. But this is a generic P&P problem nowdays. It is not a fault of the 3.5/4/5.5 ed system.
On the other hand, it is a hobby, its expansion in numbers depends on the existing groups of players. They have to respect that. It requires some effort to become a DM or a player in P&P RPG. It will be never be such easy as to play WoW. We may be not so many, like the WoW players they are dreaming about but if they keep looking on the new players and ignoring us they may loose our loyalty.
I believe that
it would be much better if the WotC invest in building or revamp new
worlds , new campaigns (PAIZO campaigns were very nice) and adventures. I know that most of these books will be
purchased by the DM and not the players but these are the most valuable
intellectual property (IP) that D&D could exploit (and not the rules). Based on this IP they could sell supplements, miniatures, novels, copyrights to computer games, set up computer games by themselves etc.
I don't think I will switch to 4 ed. I will stay with 3.5 ed for D&D style campaings. I am also checking a number of more mature P&P systems for new campaigns.
Dimitris | |
Ha 68/80 De 55/60 Ar 52/60 GoL 67/72 Ab 55/60 Dk 54/60 Af 54/60 Ud 57/60 Wd 57/60 WQ 55/60 BW 57/60 Uh 55/60 NB 54/60 DD 54/60 DD2 26/60 | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10849 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 09/19/2007 3:51 AM |
| Posted By Dimitris on 09/19/2007 3:48 AM
I understand a number of problems of the 3.5 ed but I feel that the WotC didn't respect their clients by not keeping a compatibility between the 4 ed and the 3.5 ed. As Merric said I would expect to build on 3.5 and make a number of changes and advancements trying to fix the problems they are presenting to us. I don't feel that it was absolutely necessary to go for a new version and not just a revision.
That's pretty much been my contention from the beginning. | |
Leaning towards giving 4e the Digitus Impudicus
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5481 Posts
| | 09/19/2007 6:50 AM |
| Posted By MerricB on 09/18/2007 6:18 PM
Now, there's a basic problem with that: Fighters are defined by doing one or two attacks a round that do d8 (plus some minor bonuses). In 3e, they bumped up the bonuses. However, for a Fighter to remain competitive they basically have to increase their damage by about d8 *every level*. Hmm.
Just wanted to interject here. A Fighter always has that d8 attack, on every one of its 1-3 attacks per round. The Wizard gets 1-3 d6/level spells (level depending). Yeh the Wizard does 40pts of damage to 6 guys, but the fighter does 15 to everything it hits... I'm not sure how it balances out a Fighter to give them a d8/level/attack.
Granted this will all be a thing of the past when 4e comes out.
And I personally hate SW Saga for only having 1 attack, not being able to wipe out droves of little guys because you can only obliterate 1/activation blows. Yeh, I know, you can get multi-attack and have some seriously sucky penalties, or take 3 feats to unsucky those penalties - but it's just too hard to do when you've got so much more you want to boost. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Fomorian in Feywild. | |
|
PaSquall
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 09/19/2007 1:55 PM |
| Posted By MerricB on 09/18/2007 6:18 PM
Oh wait, did I say a problem? No, 3e has many. Here's another: monsters have too limited a lifetime in the game. I'm not talking about how long they last until the PCs kill them - that's not a problem. No, what's a problem is that an Ogre is a CR 3 creature that is probably too tough for level 1 characters, and too weak for level 5 characters.
????? I don't get this.
I must say I haven't DMed 3E, but I've played quite a bit. But what is the problem here ?
In old editions, when the ogre wasn't enough of a challenge for the PCs anymore, there were many solutions :
- raise their numbers.
- give him (them) maximum number of HP.
- have him (them) wear crude chain or plate armor to give them a better AC.
- give him (them) an exceptionnally sharp axe with a +1 or +2 bonus TH and damage.
- combine the previous possibilities.
Frankly it doesn't take a PhD in RPGs to figure this out and find other solutions. The player's options high level campaigns book gave very interesting mechanisms to boost a monster...
So why is this such a problem in 3E ?
Of course there's a limit with what you can do and one day or another the ogre is not a challenge anymore, even boosted. But then it's time to bring in stronger foes : troll or hill giant for example. And it's far better for the game too, I mean 15th-level players would be terribly bored to still fight orcs at that level... At least my players.
Here's an example of how things will be changing. In 3e (and previous editions), Wizards are primarily defined by their ability to cast d6/level spells that affect a lot of creatures at once. Fireball, Cone of Cold, Delayed Blast Fireball.
For newbie players, maybe. Else, it's wrong.
- it's not always possible to cast a fireball. I've seen a lot of games where the wizard never got in a position to shoot his fireball, for a variety of reasons.
- Although fireball and cone of cold are certainly useful spells, the most useful ones were certainly fly, haste and slow (THE most useful 3rd-level spell ever), and dispel magic at high level. Add hold monster (efficient even if the monsters made their save), telekinesis and wall of force for 5th-level.Â
Now, there's a basic problem with that: Fighters are defined by doing one or two attacks a round that do d8 (plus some minor bonuses). In 3e, they bumped up the bonuses. However, for a Fighter to remain competitive they basically have to increase their damage by about d8 *every level*. Hmm.
What ??? You'd want the fighter to do as much damage as a fireball EACH TIME HE SWINGS HIS SWORD ?
(I'm beginning to suspect you play too much japanese CRPGs, or maybe Baldur's gate dark alliance  )
Remember that the fighter can attack every round, and several attacks per round. For the wizard, once he has exhausted his 2 or 3 fireballs (at best, assuming he can fire them), it's over.
4e: Fireball no longer deals 1d6 per level - I'm expecting it'll be a much flatter amount of damage, so that (a) you don't have to roll so many dice at high levels (that's a problem), and (b) the power curve isn't so steep.
What is the problem ? Frankly ?
Maths ? I just did the test with my 6 YEARS-OLD DAUGHTER : she can calculate in less than 30 seconds (sometimes less than 20) the sum of a dozen d6. Are you telling me that teenagers or adults can't do that, faster ?
And BTW, as it has been said on another topic, rolling dice is fun, and is a major part of the roleplaying experience. 30+1d8 is far more boring than throwing 10d6 and getting good or bad luck.
I'm not dissing 4E. From what I've read, some new rules look good, but the part you mention in your post doesn't.
All D&D classes were never meant to be balanced, damage-wise. Each of them had its role :
- thieves weren't meant do deal high damage, but they could backstab and so dispatch some well-chosen monsters, giving tactical advantage to the group.
- clerics weren't meant to deal high damage. their role was to protect and boost the group, cure combattants and do minor fighting.
- Wizards could deal high damage or not, depending on the situation.
- fighters were meant to fight, and do good damage to most monsters.
It was a cooperative game : you needed a good mix of classes to succeed.
If 4E wants every class to be able to deal the same amount of damage (and from some blogs I've read, it looks like it), it's not a good move IMO.
We'll see when the PHB is out. | |
Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
Australia
| | 09/19/2007 7:10 PM |
| Without DMing 3e, I don't think you've seen the problems with the system I've seen. I'd guess I've run about 500 sessions or so of the game, so that's about 2,000 hours with the system in play, not counting preparation time. From the DM's chair, you see utterly different things than the players. I don't think I'm explaining it well, but there are problems there.
I saw a fighter dealing 200 damage/round at 18th level in 3.5e, by the way. That was typical. And by those levels, the wizards are indeed casting d6/level every round. The trouble isn't at levels 6-12, because that's where everything works. It's beyond that.
Oh, and rolling 15d6 and calculating it quickly? Try it with a few players sometime. There are those who have good arithmetic skills (I do) and can calculate it quickly. However, there are some out there that are dreadful at it - normally due to arithmetic not being taught to them properly in primary school.
Cheers,
Merric | |
Merric Blackman
| |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
Australia
| | 09/19/2007 7:16 PM |
| Posted By Dimitris on 09/19/2007 3:48 AM
I believe that it would be much better if the WotC invest in building or revamp new worlds , new campaigns (PAIZO campaigns were very nice) and adventures. I know that most of these books will be purchased by the DM and not the players but these are the most valuable intellectual property (IP) that D&D could exploit (and not the rules). Based on this IP they could sell supplements, miniatures, novels, copyrights to computer games, set up computer games by themselves etc.
The trouble is there is very much a law of diminishing returns there. This isn't a computer game, where you play through the entire game in a week or month. A good campaign will probably last years. Say that a campaign lasts 2 years.
In that time, you need *one* setting. For your next campaign, do you want to play in a new setting that you have to learn, or do you want to explore further the setting you originally used, but - due to the amount of stuff for it - you haven't even touched 10% of the material?
That's the problem with new settings: they appeal to smaller and smaller numbers of people. If you have every setting with Realms-like support, well, people can't buy every book, so they just concentrate on the one(s) they like.
Adventures are much more attractive, but they have to be done exactly right or they don't sell... and they generally cost a lot more than other books to produce.
Cheers,
Merric | |
Merric Blackman
| |
|
Dordledum
Commander
3100 Posts
Netherlands
| | 09/20/2007 2:39 AM |
| I'll pick up the 4E MM when it is released, just to be able to cross-reference all mini previews. I'll wait with PhB and DmG until my group switches.
D. | |
Member of the Bearded Devils
Champion of the Huge Spider (WotDQ 46/60), A New Umber Hulk (DoDe 57/60), and Hardcopy Printed DDM 2.0 Stat-Cards for all Minis! | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
10849 Posts
In the constellation of Cygnus, or Central Connecticut
| | 09/26/2007 5:19 AM |
| Posted By MerricB on 09/19/2007 7:10 PM Without DMing 3e, I don't think you've seen the problems with the system I've seen. I'd guess I've run about 500 sessions or so of the game, so that's about 2,000 hours with the system in play, not counting preparation time. From the DM's chair, you see utterly different things than the players. I don't think I'm explaining it well, but there are problems there.
I certainly won't dispute your experience as a DM Merric and I also won't say that 3.5 is a perfect system devoid of the need for some fixes.
What I will say, and what no one will change my mind about, is the idea that 3.5 is so utterly broken that it needs to be fixed by the revamping (4E) of the game. It just is not necessary. No system is perfect and those that think 4E will be the magic salve are sorely mistaken. By the time 5E is predicted, many will indeed be saying the same things about 4E (the need for fixing) they are now saying about 3.5 | |
Leaning towards giving 4e the Digitus Impudicus
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Ctulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|
| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
| |
ActiveForums 3.7 | You must be signed in to participate in the
games. |